Post B6c8svMQBXeGNrcNxQ by fiore@brain.worm.pink
(DIR) More posts by fiore@brain.worm.pink
(DIR) Post #B6bN7naQZkt2oiCF6m by julia@eepy.moe
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@nelson@wetdry.world Flatpak W nglPeople that use other init systems always have a stick up their ass about non-native packaging anyways, it won't make a difference
(DIR) Post #B6bN7nje1UG9HIVbTU by alexia@starlightnet.work
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@julia @nelson prejudice much
(DIR) Post #B6bNFfvuum2NOg0IM4 by fiore@brain.worm.pink
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@julia @nelson flatpak is great , but also isnt this kind of a weird hill to alienate contributors on ?also , the reason people like native packaging is exactly because of stuff like this .. if flatpak allowed more community input, im sure most people would feel the same way?
(DIR) Post #B6bO6jZg6h6o2QtzSS by julia@eepy.moe
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@fiore@brain.worm.pink @nelson@wetdry.world the point of flatpak is to decrease ecosystem fragmentation and provide stable runtimes for applicationssupporting entire different multiple different OS stacks is contrary to that goal
(DIR) Post #B6bO6k2ONw4rTUKvDM by fiore@brain.worm.pink
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@julia @nelson imean i guess i havent rlly looked into why flatpak would even need to depend on systemd so i dont rlly have anything interesting to reply herebut if the point is cross distro compatibility, deciding to cater only to Some Distros , with a technology that is to be completely honest kinda falling apart on itself (lets face it , systemd is not in its golden days anymore and hasnt been for a while, while alternatives have been getting a lot nicer to use), kinda makes no sense to me ? but idk , i rlly should look more into it i think .
(DIR) Post #B6bOEi9ZH5LLwnUcz2 by kirby@freerobuxextremist.com
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@julia @fiore @nelson >supporting entire different multiple different OS stacks is contrary to that goalif that's the case, then why doesn't flatpak exclusively support immutable distros? bad card
(DIR) Post #B6bOKEhlfxuWLu7llw by pj@donotsta.re
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> systemd is not in its golden days anymore and hasnt been for a whilesince when and how@fiore @julia @nelson
(DIR) Post #B6bOKEuWuW7QzU5xfE by fiore@brain.worm.pink
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@pj @julia @nelson @claude review
(DIR) Post #B6bOY1oOPQEgQ2ndIm by pj@donotsta.re
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Yeah I don't consider that anyhow related because it does not affect dev process
(DIR) Post #B6bOY25lMq89HuvVNQ by fiore@brain.worm.pink
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@pj in any case , i am a happy systemd user on my servers . what im trying to say is that the push towards alternatives is there , and is something many people advocate for, and work actively towards . binding yourself to outdated technology is a bad idea imo..
(DIR) Post #B6bOZLF7eMkIyOvci8 by kopper@not-brain.d.on-t.work
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@julia @fiore @nelson julia hi this is an L I thibj.flatpak itself is the abstraction you as the software dev target to make your software work on the weird distros without needing to care about them in specific. this is counter to pretty much half of the entire selling point of flatpak (the other half is the sandboxing)
(DIR) Post #B6bOctM9H35PdtuLCq by fiore@brain.worm.pink
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@kopper @julia @nelson this is kinda like what if chromium decided to only work on windows . not rlly but . kinda
(DIR) Post #B6bOsA9p5cuy5uQMyG by pj@donotsta.re
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Ok, so I'm like with you until "outdated technology" because where in the hell is systemd an "outdated technology" (as a project and its author that always has been striving to provide best Linux Desktop experience)?@fiore
(DIR) Post #B6bOsAIKZziuWIPAES by fiore@brain.worm.pink
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@pj outdated since alternatives have been consistently been able to provide better performance with simpler and more portable systems.
(DIR) Post #B6bOu9agAUU6uow3PM by fiore@brain.worm.pink
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@pj thats when something becomes “outdated” in software
(DIR) Post #B6bP2C7AfSNV3ny2C0 by pj@donotsta.re
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Also to be clear, I'm all for having diversity in software stack and be as compatible and interoperable as possible, but I'm also just a dev that cannot support everything always forever and having less scope and more predictable platforms is extremely better for me(I'm also an Alpine/pmOS/Chimera user that has been on musl and non-sd init/rc for years)@fiore
(DIR) Post #B6bP2CIVzHS5czH5sG by fiore@brain.worm.pink
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@pj init and daemon supervision is not and never has been something an application developer should worry about
(DIR) Post #B6bP2TTm6fYmupfpHk by kopper@not-brain.d.on-t.work
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@fiore @julia @nelson eh, more like wine only deciding to support wsl
(DIR) Post #B6bP3LtVnCEVgI88tk by fiore@brain.worm.pink
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@kopper @julia @nelson oh yea thats good
(DIR) Post #B6bP5TjTcadcZORzaC by yukijoou@fedi.kemonomimi.gay
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@pj @fiore @julia @nelson as a user, i do feel like the project has ballooned a bit too much, taking on features that feel like they don’t need to be tied to an init system and/or service manager (such as systemd-ukify)– this means these features depend on libsystemd when they could work independently of systemd, which makes me feel a bit too “locked in” to the project (bus factor and all that)that, while still having long standing issues (extremely vague log messages such as “A stop job is running …”, like, could you tell me at least what is holding up shutdown..?) has made me loose some faith in the project
(DIR) Post #B6bP9pzmn274mA9pUO by pj@donotsta.re
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But all those alternatives are worse in terms of providing functional features (as in they lack them). Like I've been there, done that (openrc/dinit) and there's only one project that can somewhat compete with current status quo.@fiore
(DIR) Post #B6bP9qCC2u2POdxjpQ by fiore@brain.worm.pink
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@pj uh ok . could you be more specific in which features you are talking about ?
(DIR) Post #B6bPLxC9qdEya0ioXQ by pj@donotsta.re
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No, I'm talking as a developer relating to other developer when e.g. Flatpak devs say they want to use X that is used by majority of users because it makes their job easier and more rigid.@fiore
(DIR) Post #B6bPLxOv5BRtDah0Qi by fiore@brain.worm.pink
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@pj as i said , i have not looked into the specifics of how flatpak would even need this. so i cannot say anything about it
(DIR) Post #B6bPfAOkyzzR1ymC1o by pj@donotsta.re
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@fiore logind, tmpfiles, sysusers, user services (which are quite a recent thing still in openrc), socket activation, more...
(DIR) Post #B6bPfAcEAulVhl4x1c by fiore@brain.worm.pink
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@pj > logind, user servicesthere are alternative implementations that despite not being complete yet, are already in use by lots of people and have already proven that a standalone tool is better for this job (turnstile, for example)> sysuserswhat even is that> tmpfileswhy is this even in systemd
(DIR) Post #B6bPwaKVp6JONZ63M0 by navi@social.vlhl.dev
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@pj @fiore > sysusershttps://git.pinkro.se/Rose/gardenhouse/sysuserd.git/> tmpfileshttps://git.pinkro.se/Rose/gardenhouse/seedfiles.git/> socket activationsuper-servers have existed for a while, and i'm honestly dubious of the performance claims systemd gives to apply it for every single possible socket -- it feels like a "trick" to shave miliseconds out of boot time more than anything elseeventually i'll be doing performance tests, and if it turns out to actually matter, then something similar will be implemented in openrc
(DIR) Post #B6bQ1kWdLO97RpEFfs by fiore@brain.worm.pink
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@navi @pj like why would anything even depend on whether socket activation is available this is making me lose my mind
(DIR) Post #B6c6M85ddZAwOm0DgW by tragivictoria@mastodon.catgirl.cloud
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@fiore @julia @nelson@wetdry.world what contributors?
(DIR) Post #B6c6M8I2tR6H1Fo81Y by fiore@brain.worm.pink
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@tragivictoria @julia wdym?
(DIR) Post #B6c6Qts3vkC5kNvYcS by tragivictoria@mastodon.catgirl.cloud
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@kopper @fiore @julia @nelson@wetdry.world yeah and that abstraction doesn't need to support weird init systems nobody uses.Seriously, everyone here talks as if flatpak was about to cut off support from half of it userbase. Non-systemd users are minority of minorities, all major distros moved to systemd decade ago. At this point keeping support for them is holding the vast majority back.
(DIR) Post #B6c6Qu33Gsz6IT4KkS by kopper@not-brain.d.on-t.work
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@tragivictoria @fiore @julia from what I'm aware this systems support will be done by adding a new component to systemd (systemd-appd). I would really be interested in knowing why that has to live in the systemd monorepo
(DIR) Post #B6c6RVipCXNr8jtiUq by kopper@not-brain.d.on-t.work
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@fiore @julia @tragivictoria like I dont think this is about the init system part of systemd
(DIR) Post #B6c6d4T0MRl45J0hsm by tragivictoria@mastodon.catgirl.cloud
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@kopper @fiore @julia systemd is not only init system. It's a suite of tools
(DIR) Post #B6c6d4flazxyisytm4 by fiore@brain.worm.pink
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@tragivictoria @kopper i literally dont understand why youre being si hostile to the discussion , both me and kopper arent “systemd bad” reactionary assholes , we are bringing up valud concerns that you are just dismissing as “youre the minority, you dont matter”.
(DIR) Post #B6c6s4jTehWZFhrzfs by tragivictoria@mastodon.catgirl.cloud
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@fiore @julia @nelson@wetdry.world what community input? There is valuable feedback and then there's peanut gallery's feedback. The former is the feedback of contributors and app devs, the second are the random people on social media that have an opinion and want to share it with the class
(DIR) Post #B6c6s508ekqs5NfIe0 by fiore@brain.worm.pink
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@tragivictoria you are acting as if every flatpak contributor is ok with the current state of things , and you are wuth this mentality the one pinning flatpak down on what will soon be an outdated technology.gnome-session doing this is annoying, but still ok, since GNOME never promised to be a cross-distro piece of software for linux defragmentation. flatpak doing this would just feel very weird
(DIR) Post #B6c6upH1aVN0AysBZA by kopper@not-brain.d.on-t.work
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@tragivictoria @fiore @julia what makes you think I am not aware on that considering my use of "the systemd monorepo" and "the init system part of systemd"
(DIR) Post #B6c6upXKbsPizYVCz2 by tragivictoria@mastodon.catgirl.cloud
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@kopper @fiore @julia what was the point of that question then? Like if you know that, then why ask
(DIR) Post #B6c6uphbzedZVRJQ0W by kopper@not-brain.d.on-t.work
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@tragivictoria @fiore @julia that was not the question I was asking, but it doesn't matter because I've talked to a few people and this all seems a bit too overblown based on poor communication from some flatpak people, so there's no real reason to continue this conversation
(DIR) Post #B6c6xOriEIBx8oGEKG by fiore@brain.worm.pink
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@kopper wanna point me to some more accurate info?
(DIR) Post #B6c7uS08DLEDx5M9Ds by yakmacker@kalli.st
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@kopper @fiore @julia @tragivictoria there are a lot of systemd components that have been spun off to into completely separate programs. Logind for example. Works great without systemd.As always, making systemd a hard dependency seems like a "we have a hammer and it looks like it will work on this nail" type of solution. I don't even mind if the flatpak project doesn't make any effort to officially support openRC or whatever, but it should be init system agnostic as much as possible, to reduce headache on anyone trying to patch it.
(DIR) Post #B6c7uSB7YU1EVAUvLs by fiore@brain.worm.pink
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@yakmacker @tragivictoria @kopper elogind is a messy hack, not a solution.
(DIR) Post #B6c8sv67AAbXZHzMXY by yakmacker@kalli.st
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@fiore @tragivictoria @kopper it's an example of how many components that "depend on systemd" don't really depend on systemd, though
(DIR) Post #B6c8svMQBXeGNrcNxQ by fiore@brain.worm.pink
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@yakmacker @tragivictoria @kopper no, its how nono systemd distros can get systemd-dependent software to still work. ripping a piece out of systemd is not a sustainable long term solution , there have to be real alternatives
(DIR) Post #B6cFQkbzFtKEcLPawS by navi@social.vlhl.dev
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@tragivictoria @kopper @fiore @julia > nobody usesby how many people got mad at the concept, by how many people use gentoo or alpine or chimera or void or (ew) artix/devuan or such on their machinesit's not nobody, i'd be surprised if it's not at least a few hundreds of thousands of people minimum -- though a user count is unobtainable given the nature of open sourceand it's not like not hard-requiring systemd is holding anything *back* -- all the primitives necessary are in the kernel, there's no requirement for real systemd except "we want to use it bc it's """everywhere""""
(DIR) Post #B6cHPtUAyaf1l5TfGq by LivingCooki@void.lgbt
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@tragivictoria @kopper @fiore @julia I find it deeply ironic to talk about how there is no need to support "weird" system configurations "nobody" uses when we're talking about Linux, a "weird" system that is neglegted by most people because "nobody" uses it
(DIR) Post #B6cbJp5EQg2tS0Bzo8 by tragivictoria@mastodon.catgirl.cloud
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@fiore @kopper that's bacause you're saying volunteers developing flatpak should maintain code for people who in most cases wouldn't use flatpak anyway.This is real maintaince burden and depending on systemd (largely for cgroups) solves many problems, for pretty much anyone, for flatpak/portal maintainers and for app devs.
(DIR) Post #B6cbJpSz0N2odfIxpQ by fiore@brain.worm.pink
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@tragivictoria @kopper cgroups are literally in linux
(DIR) Post #B6cbMAO2CAF66J6YkK by tragivictoria@mastodon.catgirl.cloud
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@fiorecross-distro piece of software for linux defragmentation.And nothing changes in this department
(DIR) Post #B6cbMAWXgX32Wh5M0W by fiore@brain.worm.pink
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@tragivictoria depending on systemd makes it NOT cross platform
(DIR) Post #B6cbNJVFmnCifG1pM8 by tragivictoria@mastodon.catgirl.cloud
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@fiore @julia you're saying this move alienates contributors. What contributors?
(DIR) Post #B6cbNJiN01hDJwAIng by fiore@brain.worm.pink
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@tragivictoria the ones not on systemd???
(DIR) Post #B6cdt2fi6FOtdcB0bY by tragivictoria@mastodon.catgirl.cloud
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@fiore they're not big on flatpak anywayAnti-systemd people are also the ones who often hate flatpaks (and wayland while we're at it)
(DIR) Post #B6cdt2rlNR2eEzodOK by fiore@brain.worm.pink
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@tragivictoria ??? what kinda strawman is this??
(DIR) Post #B6ceAG6tOC8WEu6Hbs by coolbean@brain.worm.pink
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@fiore @tragivictoria "users of service managers other than mine are all chuddy suckless reactionaries" mother of all copes
(DIR) Post #B6czjDJLszU6jORAga by Syn32@mastodon.social
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@fiore @tragivictoria other projects can just implement the same things flatpak is going to be using from systemd though. there's nothing stopping them from doing that. right now systemd is just the only thing that implements what flatpak wants, if you want support on non-systemd projects then fix that...
(DIR) Post #B6czjDW77Xh1MyPMZs by fiore@brain.worm.pink
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@Syn32 @tragivictoria nobody is denying thismy take since the beginning of this thread has been “this is a bad look, and will drive contributors and supporters away”. i am convinced that flatpak as a platform will not disappear from non-systemd distros , what i do believe is that this will make it a less appealing one , since its explicitly against one of the pillars of flatpak itself . of course others will write compat shims and surfaces to make things work , after all systemd is not doing anything fancy here . the hope then is that flatpak will merge that upstream , but the attitude being “systemd is the only good platform” does not Feel Good .