Post B6XQN2M9T0m4CMdYie by SpaceLifeForm@infosec.exchange
(DIR) More posts by SpaceLifeForm@infosec.exchange
(DIR) Post #B6WzeLlrq4tAZZhEsy by Gargron@mastodon.social
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When I was growing up, we had operating systems that exposed a lot of the technical details about their inner workings, and websites that let us use code to customize them, like MySpace and Geocities. UX designers in tech have since optimized away most of the stuff that allowed and encouraged people to learn to use technology and now people get confused by files and browser tabs. And as the knowledge shrinks, more and more things have to be simplified away. I only ever see it as a one way road.
(DIR) Post #B6Wzp4ifZoSisEJZj6 by odr_k4tana@infosec.exchange
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@Gargron that's because you're technically proficient.
(DIR) Post #B6WzyCpInw4ichlre4 by z428@social.lol
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@Gargron Yes, but it's also worth considering that, by today, there are people using this kind of technology that, three decades earlier, weren't still nowhere near tools more technologically complex than a TV set or a radio receiver....š
(DIR) Post #B6X07dJzfLczP0ccYy by budin@mastodon.uy
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@Gargron For me it was Neopets!
(DIR) Post #B6X0ECrORlB1MSNXd2 by tezoatlipoca@mas.to
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@Gargron So.... does this mean custom native Mastodon UI css and scripting on a per-user, or per-instance basis will be officially supported sometime?
(DIR) Post #B6X0K07QjQJfa9duy0 by zackwhittaker@mastodon.social
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@Gargron i agree. i feel like the ability to customize, tinker, modify, edit... even hack (gently) websites and web apps especially has been taken away over the past 10-15 years of so. editing the live HTML of a Myspace page back in the 2000s almost feels impossible without all of the guardrails put in place today. it was actually fun to grow up on the internet and with computers during the 90s and 00s!
(DIR) Post #B6X0avf2YjUygAR4Ua by elrohir@mastodon.gal
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@Gargron Remember when they remade old reddit without custom subreddit CSS? They promised they would build appearance settings to compensate, but no matter how many you put, a finite collection of settings can never replace everything you can do with arbitrary code. And even if they let you send feedback to request missing features, it would still be a pain in the ass to get support to add what you ask for instead of making it yourself in minutes.The entire tech stack has gone this way.
(DIR) Post #B6X0hNuoQHmu2utJbs by zabow@mastodon.bida.im
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@Gargron I wouldn't be so dire: when I was growing up only a small subset of people was using computers and the vast majority used MSDOS or Windows 95 with closed source software. Today's population using and understanding open source software/hardware is incredibly larger than 30 years ago. So, people mindlessly using chromebooks and browsers today are the equivalent of yesterday's TVs and washing machines users.May I remind that current Linux usage numbers on the desktop are about 5% (grossly underestimated).And no, having to do with monstrosities like CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT was not that educational... š
(DIR) Post #B6X0m92p8iTpNBuNYO by Gargron@mastodon.social
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Why does it matter whether people know how to use files and tabs or re-install their operating system? Isn't it better to let people get on with their day? Well, it's like with everything in life, ignorance costs a premium. If you are ignorant of something, you can be taken advantage of. Apple sells you expensive devices capable of running any program in the world, but keeping an iron grip on what you can run on it. Google is following suit. Many such cases.
(DIR) Post #B6X0sCbsnQLIAWCAlM by strght@mastodon.social
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@Gargron A legitimate perspective. I understand it as a technique driven perspective.Let me add a second perspective. Reduction is an art. If āform follows functionā hard work is required. If done right the outcome can be pure esthetics. Thin of Braun Hi-fi equipment, Apple iPhone, Jacob Jensen, Bauhaus Designers a.o.There are many other perspectives.
(DIR) Post #B6X0zyvjXccK3fBpce by frog@frogdrool.net
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@Gargron They're coming for the URL bar next I suspect.
(DIR) Post #B6X1P1sZiJr8RaejoG by Gargron@mastodon.social
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@odr_k4tana And why am I technically proficient? It is because of what was available for me to play with when I was growing up. Something no longer available to newer generations.
(DIR) Post #B6X1wizCSrP1h4p1f6 by odr_k4tana@infosec.exchange
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@Gargron nope. That digital behaviourism stuff is not true. You are/were interested in it and actively pursued it. Contrary to the average Mastodon user's beliefs (apparently), most people are not inherently interested in tech. They use it, but hate having to deal with it.The main driver of adopting tech is utility and usability. This is why vibe coding is so big. You don't have to work for a product (let's set aside quality issues for now). The computing revolution was mainly driven by modern GUIs and OS that made computers easy to use without programming language knowledge. We mistake usability for the enemy because it's often the same companies that made it easy in the first place that are now enshittifying the product because they hit a plateau in terms of usability while being under pressure to grow.
(DIR) Post #B6X29ToECfcmO6lvsW by grishka@friends.grishka.me
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The core problem is the commercialization of it all. Companies started wanting to sell computers and software (and show ads) to people who don't want to put in any effort to educate themselves how to use these technologies. This is how we got this relentless simplification.Except some people just don't want tech anyway. I have an elderly relative who is essentially forced by the society to have a smartphone. It's quite predictable that she would sometimes ask me "Grisha, why is it not working well, can you take a look" and I'll see all kinds of nasty bloatware and adware she inadvertently installed. It happened on several occasions. I was able to put an end to this by setting up system-wide ad blocking via DNS like I do on my own devices.This is what convinced me that the society needs to change to make the use of tech a choice, not a burden.
(DIR) Post #B6X2O2M6YcfvaNYiuW by jordan@mastodon.subj.am
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@Gargron I think there's a modern thirst for what used to be normal with computing and the web. Most people are sick of being boxed into a certain way of doing things - we're creative by nature and what's mainstream right now is largely restrictive in that sense.
(DIR) Post #B6X35pYjUkywdlLe1w by piyuv@techhub.social
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@Gargron very well said. Big corporations can also lobby for laws they want due to tech illiteracy. Mostly tech literate society would never allow mandatory identification on web
(DIR) Post #B6X3C4dkKzwP9Nfc4e by bitterseeds@fosstodon.org
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@Gargron You clarify that you are talking about iOS/iPadOS because I've never seen an "iron grip" on MacOS that prevents me from running what I want. Between brew and compilers, MacOS is still fine in this respect.
(DIR) Post #B6X4GHOmwW5xpjF8Ay by numodular@c.im
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@Gargron SystemD is getting more pushback.#MXlinux #AntiX #linux #FOSS
(DIR) Post #B6X56Udwweajy8ERiS by benroyce@mastodon.social
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@Gargron "ChatGPT, summarize Eugen's post for me, it has too many sentences in it, way too much to read"(/s)
(DIR) Post #B6X5o0jDWtuRvlRkVE by metin@graphics.social
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@Gargron When I grew up, the OS was ditched by coders, taking over the system for maximum speed and resources. šš
(DIR) Post #B6X6gG8gRtW3McE4bA by tragivictoria@mastodon.catgirl.cloud
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@Gargron in those times internet wasn't widely spread and most people who used it were either technologically proficient or didn't knew what was going on and barely understood what was happening.Most people don't care how browsers and their computers work. They just want them to work. If your kitchen stove wasn't simple to use and you had to manually tinker with its insides to just make your food, would you actually use it? Interestingly, knowledge about how kitchen stoves work didn't shrink. People who are interested in the topic still learn it.
(DIR) Post #B6X6gGdWbEBauGehfc by Gargron@mastodon.social
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@tragivictoria I was a child. How was I technologically proficient? I didn't understand a thing when I first logged on. That's kind of my point.
(DIR) Post #B6X7vqbjF4lclaoBfM by Ra@mstdn.social
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This. This, we have taken for granted for too long'
(DIR) Post #B6X8XafWwyCAL0aGSu by geos@toot.community
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@Gargron Yes, and the less the user knows the easier it is to take advantage of them (not a good thing).I guess it is part of the transition from computing as a hobby to computing as an appliance.
(DIR) Post #B6X8zL6cPHrCB6UBU0 by gabriel@fedi.gvisoc.com
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@odr_k4tana yeah, being technically proficient is not an innate trait like being tall. @Gargron is technically proficient because he was given challenging opportunities and took his time. There are things to be given to younger generations, but the number of those more closed "normative choices" is a lot higher and the system is making them mandatory for a lot of processes.
(DIR) Post #B6X94nLArGKlC7ta64 by geos@toot.community
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@Gargron @odr_k4tana Eugen - I remember installing Slackware (4) from 3.5" floppies because my CDROM was not supported, and then learning how to roll my own device driver so I could used the ROM drive. It never worked quite right but I learned a lot in the process.
(DIR) Post #B6X9zc9d7XP90Wabia by bob_zim@infosec.exchange
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@Gargron @odr_k4tana As a counterpoint, microcontrollers today are so much better and so much cheaper than they ever were in the past itās ridiculous. People who want to learn how computers actually work have never had it so good.https://infosec.exchange/@bob_zim/116253749096264096
(DIR) Post #B6XAVwC49O5wQP8qjw by HappytoBe@mastodon.social
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@Gargron I learned to "code" using the Dbase interface. I still use the things I learned in that process.
(DIR) Post #B6XAbuFkHKsy8xi0qO by tragivictoria@mastodon.catgirl.cloud
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@Gargron you were interested in it enough to learn it.Part of the reason kitchen stoves are so easy to use is because people are not interested in how they work. If being an electrician was required just to heat up, e.g. lasagna that would be an easy way to make sure nobody would want to use them. And yet it doesn't really stop people from learning all this stuff.In fact that was the case with linux. For the longest time it wasn't exactly the most user friendliest OS. And that's why people moved back to Windows and MacOSSimplicity of use and limiting opportunities to learn are two different things
(DIR) Post #B6XAbuRnYWWikLLddA by Gargron@mastodon.social
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@tragivictoria Stoves are not a great analogy because they're relatively simple tools with a singular purpose (heating things up) and their inner workings aren't being obscured (you know if you have a gas, electric, or induction stove, and you have access to the power level settings). Now, if the power level settings on stoves were replaced with 3 settings for specific foods only, then it'd be comparable to what I'm talking about.
(DIR) Post #B6XAjMX5X9GpsXNO1A by mildpeach@mstdn.social
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@Gargron one of the things that bother me most is that UI designers have this idea that if you have a good design any documentation becomes unnecessary. Technical documentation is becoming useless or non-existent.
(DIR) Post #B6XAwwRXKZ8D19FqGO by dillo@fosstodon.org
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@Gargron do we have a deal?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JODWCwycNmg
(DIR) Post #B6XE24KVjeZemv6YVM by rasmus91@fosstodon.org
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@Gargron I honestly think both paths can be walked at once. Customizing your UI teaches you practically nothing about computers, no more than installing a different launcher on Android teaches you about what's going on inside a smartphone.What i love about #elementaryOS for instance, is that it's very simple to use. The UI is pretty and straight forward. Customizing it is limited to wallpaper, dark/light theme and accent colors. But when i want to do advanced stuff... 1/2
(DIR) Post #B6XImjNhq3FZFE6ZMG by rpf@mastodon.social
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@Gargron Are you hinting of a geocities like interface to customize Mastodon? Now that would be awesome.
(DIR) Post #B6XPQZzUlrKlQeAIGe by JadedBlueEyes@tech.lgbt
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@Gargron @odr_k4tana Hello, this is someone who grew up using fancy UX and iPads. There was more than enough stuff for me to play with and break as I grew up - from Scratch to HTML and JS to finding ways to bypass firewalls to "Swift Playgrounds." It's not because people don't have the option to learn - it's because they don't have the desire. The way you create that desire isn't by presenting weird and complex flows to get essential things done - it's by socially rewarding the process of gaining knowledge - allowing people that learn CSS to show off their styles on their profiles, allowing people to share little games they make, and bigger ones and even full apps. In the meantime, making getting stuff done harder doesn't serve anyone.
(DIR) Post #B6XPQaENsVFAAp8BTU by Gargron@mastodon.social
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@JadedBlueEyes @odr_k4tana You are not disagreeing with me.
(DIR) Post #B6XQN2M9T0m4CMdYie by SpaceLifeForm@infosec.exchange
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@Gargron When you come to the fork in the road, take it.
(DIR) Post #B6XQyYE5wCOjkwky5g by zjb@mastodon.social
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Yeah, I feel this so much. It's like we traded all that messy, creative potential for a sleek surface that nobody's allowed to scratch. Makes you wonder what we've actually lost in the name of "user-friendliness.
(DIR) Post #B6XXGxJK0rlaUWMQEa by vineethkuruvath@mastodon.social
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@Gargron Ignorance comes with a price tag, but that doesn't mean avoiding it is always the best move. Many a times it is worth it. Files, for example, anyway are an abstraction. There are many abstractions, but I'd say it is more important to understand and take a call how it affects you and the society. Google taking control of everyone's Android is being run entirely through Google Play Services, not the Android OS. I certainly don't want to be party to that.
(DIR) Post #B6XcbAwBYeYIJh02fw by BLatro@vis.social
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@Gargron NeoCities says you're just old.https://neocities.org/browse
(DIR) Post #B6XycMp13Vc2SMcTku by aeva@mastodon.gamedev.place
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@Gargron it's too bad mastodon is a twitter clone instead of a myspace clone that would have been rad
(DIR) Post #B6XydLNTuUpgGdCqo4 by padeluun@digitalcourage.social
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@Gargron Albert Einstein: āEverything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.ā(For people which donāt trust citates, here is, what he really said: āIt can scarcely be denied that the supreme goal of all theory is to make the irreducible basic elements as simple and as few as possible without having to surrender the adequate representation of a single datum of experience.ā ;)
(DIR) Post #B6Xzj5RGBTQCWbHAno by dynom@toot.community
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@Gargron @odr_k4tana that completely depends on your interests. I have two kids, one is helping me solder, wants to press buttons and see how the insides of things look.The other dances, sings and just wants stuff to work.The majority of the world just can't be arsed about things they don't want to invest their time in.I believe this falls under the "optimisers or satisficers" versus "maximisers" observation.See: satisficing. Maximisers tend to enjoy things less. Ignorance is bliss.
(DIR) Post #B6XzzFst7CtNYRuNyi by jesterchen@social.tchncs.de
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@gargron Oh, you can't imagine how glad I am right now. I've blamed UI/UX so many times for making stuff worse.So.Much.Worse.Be it with HTML in emails, be it with "simplification". And I've had discussions so many times. .. oh, and how I've have blamed (and still do) Apple for hiding technical details behind "convenience", for making users dumb.I know it feels ableist these days, but I am still convinced that technology (like, everything with computers) is too complex and too dangerous to be put in everyone's fingers. Or especially into politicians hands (see #fckplntr or every other surveillance dream or the recent signal "hack" or almost any regulation at the expense of the people instead of big tech or administration (at least in Germany))...So thanks again fur the UI part.š
(DIR) Post #B6Y1sTTgNPFTay0sk4 by oliverg@mastodon.social
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@Gargron and absurdly many (maybe not most) Open Source evangelists love Apple. Why?
(DIR) Post #B6Y9gzntAAec0iVBpo by Arcticulate@toot.community
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@Gargron I, too, thought about this subject yesterday. More specifically: why do we so often *start* with the assumption that āregular peopleā are incapable of learning how to use their computers? Canāt we give it a try, to see if some of them are willing to learn more than just clicking an Install button on their phones? Thereās a whole generation of Gen Z who we ignored to teach computers to. We didnāt give them the incentive to even try learning.
(DIR) Post #B6YZxyhb6pGuKFJlQW by dl2jml@mastodon.radio
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@Gargron When you were growing up, only the technically proficient used the Internet. Now there are 6 billions Internet users, the majority on smartphones.
(DIR) Post #B6hbGOHz2lEAdO4REm by agreeable_landfall@mastodon.social
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@Gargron I'll give you my short rant. People never wanted computers. Even after VisiCalc, even after AOL. Most people wanted to stay away from them.At some point, as the field matured, we created systems that 1) did not require the user to learn anything, 2) would run on your phone, and 3) allowed them to yak at their friends -- all the time.Social Media is what killed the Internet.</rant>
(DIR) Post #B6hpHqsLdyJkwRfdwm by RueNahcMohr@infosec.exchange
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@Gargron oh yea, I remember that website that would look completely different when you applied the various CSS files.
(DIR) Post #B6jLBg0AYDWvAeO7TU by geos@toot.community
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@odr_k4tana @Gargron I remember in 1980 thinking I might be wasting my time programming because it was getting so easy I assumed everyone would be doing it soon and there would be no future in it. What I did not account for is most people could do it, but didn't want to.The thing vibe coding is missing is the same thing the 4GL and GUI revolution missed. If Bob in Accounting whips up a useful app that gets adopted. Bob the Accountant is on the hook for supporting it forever. Good luck Bob.