Post B6NnjGblVxdk8SuTpo by moriel@chaosfem.tw
(DIR) More posts by moriel@chaosfem.tw
(DIR) Post #B6M4CAgJq20J6RvOBE by 0xabad1dea@infosec.exchange
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after reading That rust PR, I can see what they were *trying* to say, but if you lead your big controversial post with “comments raising ethical or legal concerns will be moderated, technical concerns only” then absolutely the only thing anyone is going to talk about is the alarming ethical and legal concern they now have
(DIR) Post #B6M4CAykjUkW1cY6ue by 0xabad1dea@infosec.exchange
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my husband looked over my shoulder at this post and was casually like "oh yeah, the rust PR, I saw that"y'all, he's not a programmer. how did this breach containment so hard. who here is DM'ing my husband about rust project policy drama :lolsob:
(DIR) Post #B6MJN2SoEOEu76FHua by mildsunrise@tech.lgbt
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@0xabad1dea i dunno, it would be more understandable if they were communicating some attempt to keep these concerns in mind for the policy, but they've said clearly that they believe those ethical concerns should not shape the policy, at all.it isn't a "we've tried our best to address the ethical concerns of most people, but there are lots of differences and this issue has been litigated to death so discussing it here is not productive" it's a "we can't reach any consensus at all on the ethical issues, therefore they should simply not inform the policy"
(DIR) Post #B6MJN2hhL29IrHDB7Q by mildsunrise@tech.lgbt
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@0xabad1dea in particular when they said (paraphrasing) "if we base this policy on ethics we would necessarily be putting the values of some members over others" reminds me of "no politics here" -- thinking that ethics/politics is something you can simply leave out, when in reality by doing so you're favoring specific ethics/politics over others. (i know jyn means well, but i don't agree with that line of reasoning)
(DIR) Post #B6MJQE23fyUOrTFihk by 0xabad1dea@infosec.exchange
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after getting Many replies and having seen Many other peoples' posts, I'm going to gently remind everyone that:1) if you want to post a Take on a long post and/or form a strong opinion about it that informs your actions going forward, remember to actually read the entire post and not just someone else's two-sentence Take in a vacuum2) if you don't want to read the post, valid, Marcus Aurelius releases you from the obligation to have a Take. In fact, please don't have a Take
(DIR) Post #B6NnjGblVxdk8SuTpo by moriel@chaosfem.tw
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@0xabad1dea Just the other day i installed Rust on my laptop so i could start learning it and now this happens. This does not encourage me.
(DIR) Post #B6NnjGr0bHpitk2eau by 0xabad1dea@infosec.exchange
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@moriel genuine question: do you have concerns about the post after the initial fumble, because if it's just the initial fumbling of the framing, I wouldn't worry too much
(DIR) Post #B6NnjH33sTTTV7gHNg by moriel@chaosfem.tw
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@0xabad1dea i don't know enough details about this yet to reach a firm conclusion, but i do know that if the Rust maintainers end up accepting LLM generated code then i won't be willing to learn or use the language. i'm old enough that my career is in a maintennance phase now, and i feel less pressure to constantly be learning new things. i'm getting back to where i started from in college where programming is something i do for fun, so i really have no need to learn or use tools that i find personally distasteful.i expect i will still learn something of Rust - might even start today since i've got nothing else planned - but i will have to keep half an eye on this situation to see how it develops.
(DIR) Post #B6NnjHHF1koiD6JbU0 by gnuplusknoppers@troet.cafe
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@moriel @0xabad1dea lucky you bc the policy proposed is 'no ai generated code allowed'
(DIR) Post #B6NnjHSwKGAsnNmwiW by nina_kali_nina@tech.lgbt
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@gnuplusknoppers @moriel @0xabad1dea however, consider that Rust relies on LLVM which allows AI-generated code.
(DIR) Post #B6NnjHlNDiv5iYPfRw by moriel@chaosfem.tw
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@nina_kali_nina @gnuplusknoppers @0xabad1dea It does? Hmm. Didn't know that. What is GCC's policy, i wonder?[EDIT] Ah. Ask, and ye shall receive. Polciy working group created a few weeks ago, so no decision yet but still time to influence them.https://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/working-group-ai-policy
(DIR) Post #B6NnjI5a0b5CjDrnwe by lina@vt.social
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@moriel @nina_kali_nina @gnuplusknoppers @0xabad1dea If the goal is "no AI generated code in my dependency tree", then that was a battle lost before it even began. Multiple core dependency projects are allowing AI.Given the state of the world re AI usage, there was no way that battle was going to be won. You'd need something like "AI is ruled illegal/copyright infringing across the board in some important jurisdiction" for people to consider it toxic enough to not touch and fork each and every project whose maintenance team disagrees.The way FOSS is interconnected, it is simply not possible to "hard partition" the dependency tree on moral concerns at scale. Pretty much the only thing that can do that is a legal code red, and it seems the lawyers have decided AI isn't one (even though many disagree).Put another way: The only entities with the power to credibly fork projects on a whim to uphold requirements of this class are big corporations (see: OpenSearch), and big corporations are overwhelmingly pro AI.There's some talk of Linux distros disallowing AI in packages, but even if something like Alpine were to pull that trigger, I highly suspect one or more FAANGs would just fork Alpine in response...
(DIR) Post #B6NnjIaQ9vkkGsIR16 by nina_kali_nina@tech.lgbt
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@lina I disagree with this take. Using or not using software with AI involvement is still a choice. Much more difficult one than before, but it can be done. For now it means something like "NetBSD and freezing versions of some dependencies", in the near future it might become something like "weird BSD fork compiled with a fork of ack and busybox", and it might even become "it's historic software or hand-written systems". But it still is a choice. To draw a weird parallel: if being vegan would suddenly require not only cooking 100% of your meals but also growing food, some people would still do it, and maybe hope that people around them would start, little by little, making more ethical decisions. @moriel @gnuplusknoppers @0xabad1dea
(DIR) Post #B6NnjJ10Z51JbKjfSS by lina@vt.social
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@nina_kali_nina @moriel @gnuplusknoppers @0xabad1dea It is a choice if you are willing to make extreme trade offs, that no existing established project the size of Rust can make and survive.You as an individual are free to make whatever choices you choose, but I do hope those choices are at least self consistent, because 90+% of the time the people complaining about this stuff and saying they're going to do something about it are just virtue signaling and then not actually willing to make all the compromises required to maintain an internally consistent position.To be clear, I don't like any of this AI slop stuff either, but I'm not going to switch to NetBSD because of it, and the tiny minority of people who are aren't going to make an impact on the field.Software is not like food, it's not a consumable that is continuously created in a cycle. Refusing to use code touched by AI is like a vegan refusing to eat food that was, at any point in its life cycle, produced or touched by a non vegan or had any item, device, or tool designed or manufactured by a non vegan used. Is it possible? Yeah, if you go live off grid entirely off of natural resources and make your own tools to harvest food. But I highly doubt most vegans would be willing to do that.
(DIR) Post #B6NnjJOl8m1EmzqdTk by lina@vt.social
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@nina_kali_nina @moriel @gnuplusknoppers @0xabad1dea The "free software" crowd comes to mind, you know, the FSF purists buying 10 year old laptops because they're "100% free" while their home has hundreds of microcontrollers running proprietary firmware, in everything from dishwashers to their computer mouse to the EC in their supposedly 100% free laptop. They invent arbitrary rules like "ROM doesn't count" that actually go against the goals and spirit of their supposed moral values.It's a farce and I can't take those people seriously, nor anyone who seriously believes "zero AI involved in my software" is a viable thing going forward.Go support projects that don't embrace AI and stop worrying about the supply chain, because that's a lost cause and acting like it isn't is a losing battle that leads to madness.
(DIR) Post #B6NnjJkjp3bFtA8Bjk by moriel@chaosfem.tw
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@lina @nina_kali_nina @gnuplusknoppers @0xabad1dea Oh no! It isn't possible to be 100% pure, therefore we must give in entirely!OK, i see where you are coming from now, and i'm afraid it's a position that I can have no respect for. I've heard this argument used my whole life to oppose everything from environmentalism, to anti-racism, and now AI. Same old broken record.
(DIR) Post #B6NnjK1knnD8jw5mG8 by 0xabad1dea@infosec.exchange
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@moriel @lina @nina_kali_nina @gnuplusknoppers https://infosec.exchange/@0xabad1dea/116565579285148771