Post B54aoHXiQjDFH4K4Xo by khm@hj.9fs.net
(DIR) More posts by khm@hj.9fs.net
(DIR) Post #B4zItaRMpKJGMnvwTA by scottjenson@social.coop
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Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber? This post from @carnage4life has me questioning our community. The Mastodon team is finally getting some traction, the product improvements are increasing, The #UX is improving, yet people posting on multiple platforms are making comments like this. It's confusing.I *know* people here don't want this to be a classic social media-clone but we'd *like* journalists to be here right? They aren't coming with examples like this!
(DIR) Post #B4zItafXybeV4mZGZU by scottjenson@social.coop
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As this conversation is spiraling a bit I want to make a few things clear:1. I'd like Mastodon to be MORE inclusive and bring in more voices2. Some people don't seem to want that3. This is core problem to solve: How do we let more in, but not "pollute" your feed?4. The solution is NOT "gatekeeping", revelling in the fact that AI journalists aren't welcome5. This is the same reason we lost "Black Twitter" when it came over in 2022Yes, a lot of you don't want AI posts in your feed (or pick any other topic) but the solution isn't to keep "AI People" from joining Mastodon, any more than it is keeping marginalized communities off of Mastodon.
(DIR) Post #B4zItauR5FYtoxX9mK by Gargron@mastodon.social
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@scottjenson I’m not interested in following any “AI people”. That doesn’t make it an echo chamber. We don’t need equal amounts of people who love puppies and want to kill puppies, not everything needs to be equally represented.
(DIR) Post #B4zJsW8XRU4OgSBFdg by scottjenson@social.coop
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@Gargron That is a personal choice and one which I totally respect. But I do think Mastodon should be big enough, and open enough, to allow an "AI community" to form, even thrive. Too many people in my replies don't seem to agree with that.
(DIR) Post #B4zM4hFCAf4sW3EHhI by mattwilcox@mstdn.social
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@Gargron @scottjenson Scott, let me reframe your stance in another way. Maybe it is precisely the success of Mastodon’s design and direction that allows here to be a place that *is not* being subjected to the artificial and bubble-nature of AI that exists everywhere else. (1/2)
(DIR) Post #B4zM4hnE88IeDb9Sk4 by mattwilcox@mstdn.social
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This is a space that lets anyone say anything. It is a space that doesn’t give benefits to engagement farming techniques. It is largely *human centred* and free. Soooo… baring more controls for people to be safe as an ongoing problem causing misrepresentiaon of some peoples; why is it a problem if we don’t see bitcoin grifts here? AI grifts? Business accounts? Etc? The values simply don’t align. (2/2)@Gargron @scottjenson
(DIR) Post #B4zRKXM7CeHuFfq4Dw by keith@social.coop
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@Gargron @scottjenson what about some light *kicking* of puppies?
(DIR) Post #B4zTWFYnOLsmRYU092 by bogosian@infosec.exchange
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@scottjenson @Gargron I just came back to my Mastodon account and one of the first things I see is people who have an interest in something being compared to puppy-killers by the "head" of Mastodon.<turns it back off again>
(DIR) Post #B4zTWFraGUuZNpH0Qi by Gargron@mastodon.social
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@bogosian @scottjenson I’m not head of Mastodon! Have a good day.
(DIR) Post #B511CXxmqpNxKMuOoa by regendans@todon.eu
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@Gargron @scottjenson Hot take : "gen A.I. is a fascist tool" /me 2026 #fascism #antifa #TaxTheRich #SaveThePlanet #noai #AI
(DIR) Post #B515pXqFdWF03qEdUm by mattwilcox@mstdn.social
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@scottjenson @Gargron It already allows that. The culture simply isn’t permissive of it. But that has nothing to do with the technology.Mastodon is a system which attracts certain audiences because of its values and choices. Those are different to other systems. That’s perfectly fine. That’s good.We don’t need to seek an audience with the same make up as other services. We need to work on systems that have the values we care about. Nothing more.
(DIR) Post #B515pY2IuhskfDsGHY by scottjenson@social.coop
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@mattwilcox @Gargron But that is a slippery slope. I realize this might seem contentious but I believe it's is exactly the same mechanism that chased away black twitter in 2022. If we celebrate our culture, to the point that we are happy we are excluding others, it can cut both ways."Being inclusive" is like being "ethical" it only matters when things get hard.
(DIR) Post #B515pYSXLArjya9DAe by Gargron@mastodon.social
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@SharpCheddarGoblin @scottjenson @mattwilcox Hi, I may disagree with Scott on this but he’s a coworker of mine, I know he means well, probably not getting his point across in writing in quite the right way, and I would ask you to please remain civil. Thank you!
(DIR) Post #B5171YmM4spOOehp2G by falcennial@mastodon.social
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@Gargron @bogosian @scottjenson they must've mistaken you for John. easy mistake to make.
(DIR) Post #B519kagi1jLPFyfIDw by khm@hj.9fs.net
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anyone who unironically uses the word "engagement" to describe social interactions can fuck themselves off a cliff. their priorities are sick and their motivations are deranged, and workshopping ways to attract more content farmers isn't going improve anything
(DIR) Post #B519t8rgqD2pZVsXvE by sol_hsa@mastodon.gamedev.place
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@Gargron @scottjenson I used to joke that I'm just a perl script, and LLMs went and ruined the joke.
(DIR) Post #B51A5DiMdVcy5UHAsC by jef@mastodon.social
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@Gargron @bogosian @scottjenson Yeah, direct all complaints to John Mastodon
(DIR) Post #B51CmDxbnVzHD72Y88 by Colman@mastodon.ie
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@Gargron @scottjenson these conversations always sound like “why can’t Mastodon be more like US corporate social media? Why aren’t you Americaning properly?”
(DIR) Post #B51G075wQ7M9plFhCK by cmdr_nova@null.mkultra.social
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@Gargron @scottjenson the idea that things need to be "equally represented" is exactly how Twitter became a site where it's just Elon's AI shoving incels and fascism onto your timeline 24/7
(DIR) Post #B51JNYoZp9WKKR0C2a by cratermoon@zirk.us
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@scottjenson @Gargron I'd have to ask, what value would an an AI Booster community bring to the FediVerse?
(DIR) Post #B51JNZ5EpCqdA6nV0i by evan@cosocial.ca
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@cratermoon @scottjenson @Gargron nobody has to earn their place on the Fediverse. Access to free and open social networking is a human right. You don't get to gatekeep this network.
(DIR) Post #B51JNZGa91vDjI6Ygy by scottjenson@social.coop
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@evan @cratermoon Exactly, even asking that question "What value do they bring" is kind of scary.It's a fine line, I get it. We draw the line at nazis and scammers but let's not cross the line into "intellectual purity" tests
(DIR) Post #B51JNZSzOtqYLluT20 by cratermoon@zirk.us
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@scottjenson @evan what if the question is "who benefits, who is harmed, and what recourse is there for those harmed?"
(DIR) Post #B51JNZhsVXkx5wsMEq by scottjenson@social.coop
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@cratermoon @evan should everyone who joins mastodon be forced to pass that gauntlet? Who are the gate keepers? There shouldn't be a purity test. Catch the scammers of course, but passing judgement on the quality of someone's thoughts is very dubious
(DIR) Post #B51JNayvlczV37rUSO by bufalo1973@mast.lat
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@scottjenson @cratermoon @evan I am the gatekeeper of MY timeline. So if I don't want some content, I don't follow it or I can even block it. And you have all the tools to create your own instance about AI things... that I won't follow.
(DIR) Post #B51KQFwOYM2YcCVZaq by hko@mastodon.social
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@Gargron As a general observation, I think asking for "civility" is often the equivalent of a "code smell":Sure, there are cases where it may be appropriate in the current context. However, I suspect that more often than not, it's a sign that one is brushing aside some oppression-related complaint (often from a position of relative power in the situation).I think it's a good idea to always pause before writing about "civility", and let the matter bounce around in one's head for a while.
(DIR) Post #B51M61QyyjspjxIKtU by patrick_h_lauke@mastodon.social
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@scottjenson @carnage4life threads and bluesky are single monolithic platforms. masto federated. so would likely depend on which masto server someone's posting on i'd guess as a starter...also, purely anecdotally/for my own part, there's less of a culture of boosting/liking/trying to make things go viral for the algorithm. lack of apparent engagement may not signal lack of people actually reading posts/following links/etc.
(DIR) Post #B51M61gE444oVEQVea by patrick_h_lauke@mastodon.social
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@scottjenson @carnage4life "we'd *like* journalists to be here right? They aren't coming with examples like this!" if they're only coming to see number go up engagement metrics... they may have a hard time. maybe they should come here to, oh i don't know, spread information? have targeted discussions with specific folks (rather than hoping for drive-by engagement)?
(DIR) Post #B51M61qrQWaF2DP0EK by scottjenson@social.coop
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@patrick_h_lauke So is the only alternative "number go DOWN" metrics? I'm not trying to be snarky, I'm trying to find a way to have both be possible: how can we keep our soul but still have a diverse community.My concern is that your comment uses the "we don't want a number go up mentality" argument to hide the fact that our community is a mono culture.
(DIR) Post #B51M623cf4n9fnNC7c by pixx@merveilles.town
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@scottjenson @patrick_h_lauke The short answer seems very strongly to be "it's irrelevant because that's not what people here want"Mastodon and fedi in general are very much countercultural. Most people who come to these platforms do so to get away from other platforms, many of which are more inclusive of mainstream voices.So by its very nature, mastodon has a selection bias for people who do not want inclusivity.
(DIR) Post #B51M62ExytrkEygFns by khm@hj.9fs.net
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also completely overlooking the "you can use two apps" hole in the side of this logic boatwe lose nothing by crowding out the content farmers, because we can just go sign up for content-farm platforms if their bullshit is for some reason important to us. nothing is stopping anyone from using all of these platforms, except good tasteCC: @scottjenson@social.coop @patrick_h_lauke@mastodon.social
(DIR) Post #B51MjPVhOkeLhkHaHQ by lontrachen@mastodon.social
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@scottjenson this is the magic of the Fediverse. If nobody likes the talk, nobody will follow, boost or like. It’s the people’s algorithm hehe
(DIR) Post #B51N7x7Y5Rg4tagmwa by Em0nM4stodon@infosec.exchange
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@Gargron :1000:
(DIR) Post #B51QfAf93j5OJVw1iK by GroupNebula563@mastodon.social
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@Gargron @scottjenson gargron remains awesome
(DIR) Post #B51X0LkJe6boUipreK by robinadams@mathstodon.xyz
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@Gargron @bogosian @scottjenson I'm head of Mastodon and I think puppies are an abomination.
(DIR) Post #B51nkKSkLeAb6MZ2Tg by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@cratermoon @scottjenson @Gargron more people to block and defederate *shrug*
(DIR) Post #B51tOfepSt4aBsGtRQ by pmjv@snac.lab8.cz
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😞CC: @scottjenson@social.coop
(DIR) Post #B51tOfqsk4iKnFuWEC by khm@hj.9fs.net
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present company excluded, of courseCC: @scottjenson@social.coop
(DIR) Post #B51wtCr4twlrhWFjtI by crowbriarhexe@tech.lgbt
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@dalias @scottjenson @pmdj this is very well explained, with far more grace than I could ever muster for someone erroneously, obliviously calling marginalized people I care about “old white guys”. As usual, techbro free speech just means “there should be no escape for you people from my abuse”.
(DIR) Post #B521gnnqiaRwIbeC00 by WeirdWriter@caneandable.social
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@Gargron @scottjenson Thank you and the above comment equating AI users with marginalized users is one hell of a stretch if you ask me. I don’t understand this desire to have contact with AI journalists or AI people for that matter. Then again, anybody that uses echo chamber on ironically really doesn’t understand the understanding why some of us are frankly tired and we don’t want everybody to have access to talk to us on social media. There’s a reason why I never even entertained the notion of comments on my blog. The Internet has proven time and time again that it will harm marginalized users and if marginalized users can carve out a safe space online, then why can’t people work on neighborly relationships rather than wanting everybody to be clustered into one social media room? I don’t understand why everyone wants everyone else to be clustered into one social media room when there’s more than one way to keep in contact and follow marginalized users outside of social media. Lastly, how come it’s extremely confusing for others to understand that I don’t want to follow everybody
(DIR) Post #B523SpQg4hQZCHH10q by sloanlance@mastodon.social
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@Gargron @scottjenson I want to quote you and have that made into a cross-stitch wall hanging.
(DIR) Post #B52rU26FRmWgUXUA88 by CiaraNi@mastodon.green
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@scottjenson I'm not sure this is the best example of Mastodon gatekeeping. I suspect the person you cite (I won't tag him, to not bother him. I follow him. He doesn't follow me) has a different definition of 'engagement' than many on Mastodon. He has 19,000 followers. He follows just over 200. He never ever engages with anyone. He posts one-way toots. He never uses Alt Text. The Fediverse is a chatty place full of engagement, if you choose to take part yourself, to chat, to boost, to reply.
(DIR) Post #B52rU2P2JvYTQoHAPo by Helenisenough@masto.ai
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@CiaraNi @scottjenson no alt text is a red flag for me. I don't have a visual impairment and I hugely appreciate people's alt text descriptions. If you don't include alt text you are either deliberately excluding part of the community or maybe the pics you post aren't very interesting to you, so why should I be interested?
(DIR) Post #B54aoGrswFkhBKkfLM by patrick_h_lauke@mastodon.social
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@scottjenson sounds a bit like "people don't engage with my content, so it's a monoculture"?
(DIR) Post #B54aoH7pywVpyoDPCy by patrick_h_lauke@mastodon.social
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@scottjenson the alternative is a "number mean NOTHING" metric...
(DIR) Post #B54aoHLf9XZUfggRl2 by scottjenson@social.coop
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@patrick_h_lauke The metrics are clear, people are leaving mastodon, our daily actives are going down. I agree that pursing follower count is not what Mastodon should be about, we likely agree on many points here. I'm just trying to say 'being more welcoming of other points of view' shouldn't be controvertial. Yet so many replies have been "we don't want them here!" which feels very head-in-the-sand to me.
(DIR) Post #B54aoHXiQjDFH4K4Xo by khm@hj.9fs.net
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no way to tell if people are leaving the fediverse or people are just switching to activitypub servers that don't track "daily actives"
(DIR) Post #B5IZkUolkglJXxMxOa by SecurityWriter@infosec.exchange
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@scottjenson a few points to consider, I suppose.1. What if the voices aren’t welcome because of what they say being antithetical to the values of the Fediverse?2. Why is *more* always the goal? I have more human interactions on here with <10k followers than I do on other platforms with 100k+3. Most people are welcome here, it isn’t pollution because there’s no algorithm to present those people to me. It’s far from perfect here, but is natural that smaller, more ideologically driven communities are more politically-minded, and prepared to stand on principle if they disagree with someone’s politics.4. Journalists unquestioningly hyping a failing technology aren’t in journalism, they’re in marketing5. Maybe that technology isn’t welcome in real communities because it is inherently harmful, built primarily on theft of our labour and creative output, and only serves to enrich the Big 4/5/6 etc. Many of us moved here to get out of their orbit.6. I hope you didn’t just compare people not wanting to listen to corporate mouthpieces to marginalised communities being mistreated. Truly through the looking glass if so.