Post B4VBPS64krGtNhrPZw by mischievoustomato@tsundere.love
(DIR) More posts by mischievoustomato@tsundere.love
(DIR) Post #B4TXEfQcerN2DZoVlY by mgorny@social.treehouse.systems
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Age verification in #Gentoo: if you're using Gentoo, you must be old enough. Problem solved.
(DIR) Post #B4TXLLiKM1WZ6NHUq8 by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
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@mgorny *thinks about it for a moment*Oh wow, I think I literally started using Gentoo when I was 18.
(DIR) Post #B4TY1gLO2hu3FNjk1Y by prettygood@socially.drinkingatmy.computer
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@lanodan @mgorny I'm a late-comer. 2011 for me, but I was 34 at the time. Better late than never.
(DIR) Post #B4TYuzxunBAq1r8Qds by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
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@prettygood @mgorny You're in your fifties? I would have never guessed.
(DIR) Post #B4TZI7dGS8iGT4VBXk by prettygood@socially.drinkingatmy.computer
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@lanodan @mgorny close! I turn 49 this year.
(DIR) Post #B4Te7H8lGHD6Xesj6e by mansalia@shitpost.poridge.club
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@prettygood@socially.drinkingatmy.computer @lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me @mgorny@social.treehouse.systems uncle "unclemaxxing" pg
(DIR) Post #B4TeDBNHbyIUOgUUYS by sci_photos@troet.cafe
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@mgorny At least, #Gentoo treats its users as old enough 😃
(DIR) Post #B4TegU9crs0D2V4k1w by elly@donotsta.re
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@lanodan @mgorny then I must be even weirder than people realize, I started using Gentoo in 1st year of high-school (age 15/16), ~2013. Then I stopped using it around 2021 and now I'm back again.That being said, I don't think many teenagers would mess with Gentoo these days. Commodity of cheap but powerful hardware and smartphones really damaged the "hacker spirit" among teenagers, back then you had to somewhat understand computers to use them. These days it's all locked down so that advertising companies can serve you non-stop brainrot and monetize your attention *old woman yells at modern technology*
(DIR) Post #B4Tfkey8hVkFh2G0GW by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
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@elly @mgorny On teenagers these days… I'm not sure, like I could see some of them being like "I can't with all this shit anymore", and in a way never underestimate how rebellious teenagers can be ^^(That said I've also seen how barely able to go against anything some people are because they aren't used to doing it at all)That said I sometimes feel like the hacker spirit is ageing as in I barely ever see people from like high-school or university in local events, that said local city has a history of almost each generation making their own group, so maybe late-zoomer + gen-alpha will do their own.
(DIR) Post #B4TfonvtJdeSeUBKwS by mgorny@social.treehouse.systems
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@elly @lanodan, yes, precisely. Gentoo also changed during the time. Cool kids use NixOS these days.
(DIR) Post #B4TfooHrzvETkeStCS by elly@donotsta.re
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@mgorny @lanodan Gentoo at least has (excellent) documentation and is easy to use. Most NixOS users I spoke to had no idea how their system *actually* worked :akko_shrug:Just one example: at GPN2023 someone wanted to borrow my PC because their NixOS install wouldn't boot and I was like "uuh... no? i can take a look if you bring your drive though".It was installed in "BIOS" (legacy) mode so I just shrank ext4 partition to make space for 512MB vfat, ran grub-install to that and other basic misc stuff you need to do while installing GRUB. Tried to boot it on my system (coreboot+edk2, so UEFI only) and it booted into their desktop first-try.Then I handed them the drive back and they asked me if updating NixOS would break it and I was like "heck if I know, I don't use NixOS" (technically it shouldn't, but it's really weird and cursed from what I've seen so far so who knows).
(DIR) Post #B4ThIrurAcPxeDb6nY by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
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@elly @mgorny This example is kind of funny because the only use I could ever see of a system like NixOS is for say a server farm, so you deploy on a test machine and if it breaks it's something you can always rollback even by just copying from another machine.But on a standalone computer? Yeah, nah, don't.Also NixOS so far is the only distro I've seen where so many users seem like they can't grasp other people not wanting to use it, so it pretty much became a red flag to me.
(DIR) Post #B4TkKXA3bgtFifC2Km by TheOneDoc@tech.lgbt
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@lanodan @mgorny I couldn't have used it at a young age because it wasn't around back than 🙃
(DIR) Post #B4TkM9jzed3Pf4m9EO by TheOneDoc@tech.lgbt
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@lanodan @elly @mgorny I guess it's for people wo always setup the same very limited environment and at the same time somehow often break there system 🤔oh and Fascists with an order obsession.
(DIR) Post #B4TkPueNhc0e18wSKe by TheOneDoc@tech.lgbt
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@elly @lanodan @mgorny my neigbour's kid got into Gentoo last year. He is 16.
(DIR) Post #B4Tpadg1eJdyKbe37o by SuperDicq@minidisc.tokyo
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@mgorny@social.treehouse.systems I installed Gentoo when I was 15
(DIR) Post #B4Tpfaio41HYc8J6a8 by a1ba@suya.place
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@ellyI think curious enough teens would learn one way or another. However the main obstacle might be that many don't even have computers today. Covid somewhat forced people to get computers because of remote jobs and education, but that's it.Also I think I was like 14 when I installed Gentoo lol@lanodan @mgorny
(DIR) Post #B4TuyoAAoS23Zh5fUm by moses_izumi@fe.disroot.org
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@TheOneDoc @lanodan @elly @mgorny My disinterest toward NixOS mostly comes down to the name implying that it's the definitive form of Unix.>I guess it's for people wo always setup the same very limited environment and at the same time somehow often break there systemI have the same view of atomic/immutable distros promoting themselves as the future while constantly playing up the disadvantages of traditional OSes.
(DIR) Post #B4Tvn23RRGvp8ZtGKm by moses_izumi@fe.disroot.org
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@TheOneDoc @elly @lanodan @mgorny I just find it funny how spokespeople and users act like every Debian install is one package away from turning into sand.
(DIR) Post #B4Tvn2GCfp8jm9rSE4 by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
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@moses_izumi @elly @mgorny @TheOneDoc Could be a nice feature to be honest ^^https://xkcd.com/1349/
(DIR) Post #B4U35zKoTUFpsp0AoC by moses_izumi@fe.disroot.org
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@lanodan @elly @mgorny @TheOneDoc My ideal operating system would probably be a minimal Linux/BSD (maybe even 9front) where most of the user-facing applications run in a compatibility layer. - an MS-DOS layer: because it's a simple environment where you never have to worry about shared libraries - a Haiku layer, because it's the last semi-popular OS that's entirely focused on desktop users (Android technically counts, but it's built on 100GB of sourcecode and ruled over by Google)(macOS may count if it got the Wine treatment)- also a Windows layer, for the sake of running and reverse-engineering decades of nonfree softwareFrankly tired of the FSF treating Monster Truck Madness and Paint Shop Pro like they're from the same plane of mind-numbing evil as Copilot and Recall.(their view of reverse-engineering binaries seems to be "we don't wanna do it, because it shouldn't be necessary")
(DIR) Post #B4U35zbTTXa8iUnTmK by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
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@moses_izumi @elly @mgorny @TheOneDoc I think my ideal would be:- Readable source code for whole default/base install, keeping external binaries as optional, and separated projects aren't vendored in- Filesystem is reliable by modern standards (like at very least CoW with block checksumming)- Gentoo tree or close equivalent for (third-party?) software, so less arbitrary choices inside packages- Well documented interfaces and formats- C isn't the only intended way to use core system APIs (Linux with syscalls+filesystems would satisfy that with better docs and machine-readable files)- POSIX as a guide for at least one of the supported environments, other pre-existing environments can be less supported- Nested namespaces are well supported and restricted to either same access as their parent or less- All it's network services can be ran with least privilege
(DIR) Post #B4U3C6hG12P2SBPwuW by frela@tech.lgbt
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@elly @lanodan @mgorny I guess the difference is 1. the quality of docs, 2. the barrier of entry. NixOS has had famously shitty docs for ages now (I legit learned more through just reading a friend's config and asking them questions about it than through any online resource I was able to find), and combined with the fact that you very much can Just Install It and use it like a normal distro without any of the shitfuckery people normally get up to with it makes people just do that, and not learn about its internals and advanced usage.Compared to Gentoo, where if you have no previous knowledge you won't get far without consulting the wiki, *and* the wiki is extremely high quality and easy to follow, so people end up doing that and actually learning about how their system works.
(DIR) Post #B4U3C6wr52sbEYiPDs by frela@tech.lgbt
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@elly @lanodan @mgorny I guess a better comparison as to what NixOS is is not Gentoo but rather those Arch-based distributions that were really popular a while back that were just Arch packaged together with a live environment and a graphical installer. Still Arch with all of its capabilities, but with a negligible barrier to entry.Except then you still had the Arch Wiki to consult in case of problems, now there's. a few third-party booklets I guess? NixOS wiki is somewhat usable now, but still the easiest way to find out some things is by reading the code in nixpkgs, and a new person sure as hell ain't going to be doing that
(DIR) Post #B4U6ZTDIlSWYoMEovw by moses_izumi@fe.disroot.org
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@lanodan @elly @mgorny @TheOneDoc Mostly thought about the user-facing side to be honest. I've been exposed to emulators and VMs since gradeschool times, so the idea of a "consumer-grade" OS made from compatibility layers isn't that exotic to me.Never used Gentoo, but pretty much everything about it seems to be the right way of doing things (or at least a workable foundation) and the wiki is pretty comfy.On that note, has anyone tried bringing Portage (or equivalent) to Windows?
(DIR) Post #B4U6ZTYvT3oztQM5dg by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
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@moses_izumi @elly @mgorny @TheOneDoc Issue I see with tailoring to a bunch of different environments is:- Prone to the worst kind of feature creep- Having to deal with ~everyone's bad designs without some nice gap between your system and the others- Less/no possibility of refusing some features (specially with modern systems) while eternally chasing after them, at a pace you don't control (burnout recipe right there)Like for example, Android is basically the Windows of phones, and there's sure a ton of stuff where it's better to be barely compliant with it, and Google is anything but slow at creating & pushing for new APIs.
(DIR) Post #B4U6aQjxRghdQiyEWe by frela@tech.lgbt
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@lanodan @elly @mgorny I had a conversation with someone on here recently, and we settled on that "NixOS solved all of our problems by replacing them with a set of different, more interesting problems"And yea, on desktop it's worth it if you're a very specific type of person who has these problems more often than usual, is tired of it, and would actually find Nix's problems to be more interesting to deal with. Which does not apply to most people.It really is an absolute gamechanger if you're managing multiple servers, though, I can provision bare-metal machines, VMs and containers that are already preconfigured for my use case with just a few lines of code, so I agree that the benefit for system administrators is far more objective than on a personal workstation.
(DIR) Post #B4UVlPxlAqJt3glK6q by TheOneDoc@tech.lgbt
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@lanodan @elly @moses_izumi @mgorny I have to say Chimera Linux with the bsd Userland is a rather good base. I like dinit and, for simple networking Network Manager slap potmon in an LXC and the DE in an other and btrfs or ZFS for snapshoting plus qemu/kvm for dos and win stuff. Works pretty well. Other than running updates there's no reason to ever touch Chimera
(DIR) Post #B4UVlQHbz2CQ3G3B3I by elly@donotsta.re
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@TheOneDoc @lanodan @moses_izumi @mgorny speaking of Chimera, I've seen someone on IRC complaining they couldn't run musl-based system (Chimera, Alpine) because they had an Nvidia card.I don't know specifics as to why because I haven't had any Nvidia cards in the past decade, but I got a cursed idea: rolling glibc libraries in /usr/local/lib and patchelf'ing the living crap out of nvidia's userspace stack. It probably would blow up spectacurairly, but it would still be fun to try running userspace driver stack on glibc and rest of the system on musl.(...can you tell why computers fear me?)
(DIR) Post #B4UVlQWr4MOOoXBLoO by fiore@brain.worm.pink
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@elly @moses_izumi @lanodan @mgorny @TheOneDoc this is .. cursed , and im tempted to say it wouldnt work but . please do try
(DIR) Post #B4UZLt7wWF1ZnUbiQi by elly@donotsta.re
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@fiore @moses_izumi @lanodan @mgorny @TheOneDoc well, someone else would have to do it. The only (dedicated) GPUs I have in my possession are:- Radeon X800XL (AGP)- Radeon HD4850- Radeon R9 280 (or was it an R9 280X? I forgor)- Intel Arc A580- Radeon RX 7800XTI do have a broken RTX2080 somewhere (friend gave it to me to see if I could fix it, but found that he chipped the GPU core while removing the heatsink so it's dead-dead) and GTX760 should be somewhere at my brother's place but that's too old to even be useful for this experiment
(DIR) Post #B4V2at9FcVkUsRixKi by TheOneDoc@tech.lgbt
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@moses_izumi @elly @lanodan @mgorny funny thing is don't give people root or sudo and the system doesn't break.I moved my family off of windows a couple a years ago to TUXEDO OS. I removed there accounts from the sudoers group and update there systems whenever Tuxedo does a significant update. The only problematic update was a bad pipewire version and when they went from one lts kernel to the next the default Nvidia dkms build broke as they didn't remove the dkms for the obsolete Nvidia driver first. Catched it on my test system so wasn't an issue when I updated there machines over ssh
(DIR) Post #B4V2bz03LinPJbwZRA by TheOneDoc@tech.lgbt
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@moses_izumi @elly @lanodan @mgorny congratulations you re-invented windows NT as originally designed
(DIR) Post #B4V2xmSodfXmo2n7Kq by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
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@elly @fiore @moses_izumi @mgorny @TheOneDoc Yeah, only two nvidias I have here long got unsupported by nvidia binary drivers, one of which is my previous laptop from 2012 where the last remaining drivers went really bad so I *had* to switch to nouveau.
(DIR) Post #B4VBFMz2uZHgculTLk by mischievoustomato@tsundere.love
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@elly @fiore @moses_izumi @lanodan @mgorny @TheOneDoc >archell yeah
(DIR) Post #B4VBPS64krGtNhrPZw by mischievoustomato@tsundere.love
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@elly @lanodan @mgorny i messed with gentoo a fair bit, but i hopped off this week when i wanted to have a specific software and the work for it would've been too complex.
(DIR) Post #B4VBVW2szG8HMhGAoC by mischievoustomato@tsundere.love
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@elly @lanodan @mgorny i have a very complex Nixos configuration, and indeed, I have no idea how many systems in it work, a lot was done thru trial and error and guessing how stuff works from reading .nix files
(DIR) Post #B4VBZgCj9vIu1vqfy4 by elly@donotsta.re
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@mischievoustomato @lanodan @mgorny I just use containers for that, especially for development to not litter my system with dependencies/headers
(DIR) Post #B4VBmqr0sINipAyN3A by mischievoustomato@tsundere.love
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@elly @lanodan @mgorny for me the drive was having stuff compiled natively (i even enabled pgo and lto system wide), so it was a turnoff. Stuff piled up (I also need software for music production) so I felt overwhelmed
(DIR) Post #B4VC0J03XZABsjcMvw by mischievoustomato@tsundere.love
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@elly @lanodan @mgorny i also jumped off of nixos again today because i wanted to run whisperx and it was nigh impossible, be it through the nixpkgs software repository or uvx (doesnt work due to nixos peculiarities, even with a tool that should help it)
(DIR) Post #B4VC4ADS8mtBnUiwUq by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
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@elly @mgorny @mischievoustomato Yeah same there (via bwrap), there's some software that's better just put in a corner just like windows executables.
(DIR) Post #B4X1Udms6jW1rPdJyq by fun@berkeley.edu.pl
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@elly @moses_izumi @lanodan @mgorny @TheOneDoc this message was sent from a laptop with an nvidia GPU (and no integrated or switchable graphics, so it only uses the nvidia gpu at all times), running Alpine Linux and sway. (nouveau)
(DIR) Post #B4X1Ue27C3i0cglUjw by fun@berkeley.edu.pl
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@elly @TheOneDoc @lanodan @mgorny @moses_izumi it's a Fermi card (Quadro 2000M)
(DIR) Post #B4X1UeGILL3FKfOoqG by DenJohn@mas.to
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@fun @elly @moses_izumi @lanodan @mgorny @TheOneDoc oh fermi, linux drivers hell I seeWell, relative to kepler+ which has nvk
(DIR) Post #B4X1UeQZj7H5qYD1rk by fun@berkeley.edu.pl
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@DenJohn @elly @moses_izumi @lanodan @mgorny @TheOneDoc I've been told that Fermi will never get NVK, then I've been told that it might get NVK after all. Idk.