Post B41U62AyyOhbsFoPPk by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
(DIR) More posts by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
(DIR) Post #B41Cgiow6L9nNpqQ8u by floy@mystical.garden
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Seeing this industry, this community being in overwhelmingly large parts gobbled up by the LLM hype and cheering through it, trying to pull everyone else down the drain, really makes me question where I see my own future within all this…Looking at it more honestly, the current trends really just lay bare the moral bankruptcy and contempt for the actual craft and engineering of building systems that has been there all along, barely hiding.When I got into tech, I was a naive teenager. I believed automation is generally a good thing, I believed that computers and the internet were generally something good, something cool and flashy. I grew up surrounded by this vague sense that people who understand computers are in some way superior to those who don't.And I looked up to some of the people who were doing good and important work and hence, believed them to be generally good people.Now, I'm glad I have some other frames of reference. Questioning the substance of flashy and cool things, and which interests they serve. Big tech as a capitalist force, trying to extract as much money down the line, which means luring people in, locking them in, controlling their behavior, making them dependent now. Startups following the ever same cycle of burning venture capital to try and enter this playbook, cannibalizing yet another profession.And I've learned to value crafts, solid reasoning, taking responsibility for your work. I value art, music, genuine human expression, journalism, theoretical analysis, humanity.And I also see how many of the people I used to look up to making excuses for the former, or eagerly supporting it, bowing before it; and kicking dirt on the latter.And I see so much "well I only use LLMs for X and Y but not for Z" around me, and it just makes me sad. I don't want to scold these people, because at least they're still holding on to some sliver of critical thinking, but on another level I'm worried they might already be lost either way.And sure, the bubble will pop in one way or another, but I doubt any of this will truly go away again.So, where does that leave us? Will there be a part of this community that upholds its principles in an environment where that becomes increasingly difficult? Will niches in the industry emerge where human software engineering and craft is still valued and slop is kept out (and which are not morally rotten in some other way)?Is this a field that is worthwhile to stay in? Is that something I will want to do?I honestly don't know.
(DIR) Post #B41ToxYmslVMdPnxzc by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@floy this is so my mood.But yes. Let’s make such a community. Count me in, and @mgorny and @dalias and lots of others (not Mr. curl, he uses slop for X but not Y and Z and only complains that others use it for X badly).We need a name."AIn’t", maybe. This is across-all-branches from https://linguacelta.com/aint/, but an unmojeekable term. Maybe better as a badge than as a name, @linguacelta designed it as such anyway.
(DIR) Post #B41TshUYZ7yFxTbrbk by tuban_muzuru@beige.party
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@floy When automatic transmissions entered the market, my grandfather yelled "Now every idiot in the world will be driving a car!"
(DIR) Post #B41TshhfmMSkc9kL3I by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@floy @tuban_muzuru he was right
(DIR) Post #B41U0en2UkgftZ35MW by burnoutqueen@todon.nl
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@floy I'm going for computational science instead for this reason
(DIR) Post #B41U0eyjnG2qTqWQb2 by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@burnoutqueen @floy good. I’m not an academic, I’m a programmer, a craftsman with a tiny bit of artist on the side, and way past uni age; I… have to sit this out. And hope it bursts before it takes even more collateral damage.
(DIR) Post #B41U61wnp7MNAHB5JQ by schrotthaufen@mastodon.social
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@floy @fionafokus My maybe misplaced, or somewhat naive, hope is, that in a few years, those who retained their ability to think for themselves will be the only ones left who can untangle the gargantuan mess the LLM gambling addicts left behind.
(DIR) Post #B41U62AyyOhbsFoPPk by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@fionafokus @schrotthaufen @floy but, do you want to have to do that?I’m not going to touch that. Rather, I’d do the whole thing, Anforderungsanalyse and up, to put a new thing.
(DIR) Post #B41UAN6h5w6hwqsHZo by crow@irlqt.net
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@floy@mystical.garden even in college i could tell the class was bifurcated into people that didn't care a out code or computers and just wanted a job; and people that loved the science and the machines it sucks seeing llms reveal that the ratio was far worse than half and half :/
(DIR) Post #B41c0AoijUVUZM7EGW by schrotthaufen@mastodon.social
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@mirabilos @fionafokus @floy Every job I’ve had was at least infosec related, and I earned my living with reverse engineering for a while -> nothing much would change anyway ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
(DIR) Post #B41c0B0Q1zrf9daZV2 by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@schrotthaufen @floy @fionafokus ok then; infosec is a genre I see me very much not getting into; I looked at the mailing lists and decided that it’s not for me
(DIR) Post #B41ffrW3BSeAjUx9ay by schrotthaufen@mastodon.social
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@mirabilos Better for your mental health, for sure 😅
(DIR) Post #B41ffrkwI6YZTfv2no by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@schrotthaufen what’s left of it, I’m sure 😺
(DIR) Post #B44JxnFABy1dB44yKu by wyatt@soc.megatokyo.moe
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@crow @floy I was already aware when i was there a few years ago that it was like 80% not caring and 20% caring if i'm being generous
(DIR) Post #B44Jxnb8sFbeHEMWau by pixx@merveilles.town
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@wyatt @crow @floy @rl_dane yeahhhhhh see also: >80% of programmers are incompetent.because they don't want to be good, they just want to be good enough to make money and go home
(DIR) Post #B44Jxnr5uwMn4hpGSW by rl_dane@polymaths.social
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@pixx @wyatt @crow @floyAnd their corporate overlords only care about shipping the product and making money, yeah.It's all a dearth of virtue, all the way down.
(DIR) Post #B44Jxo4D8ArHjNxju4 by pixx@merveilles.town
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@rl_daneYeahI've said before that i don't like making comments like this because it feels mean but - it also feels like a deliberate choice on the part of the people being insulted.They're *choosing* to be stupid and useless. It's not that i think they're incapable of being smart, but that they're choosing to be stupidThat deserves judgement and mockery @wyatt @crow @floy
(DIR) Post #B44JxoFuQgDSJfR58a by rl_dane@polymaths.social
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@pixx @wyatt @crow @floyI was talking to a good friend about this subject this afternoon.Him: "But it's going to get better."Me: "If by 'better' you mean more functional, maybe. But it will never get more virtuous."Him: "But if you don't get in there, someone else is going to do it."Me: "I refuse to wait in line to become a bastard. That's on them."Me: "If you just replace the term 'A.I.' with 'Slavery,' everything fits perfectly. That should really tell you something."
(DIR) Post #B44K7vLwtcbFDy5G6K by lispi314@udongein.xyz
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@floy Will there be a part of this community that upholds its principles in an environment where that becomes increasingly difficult? Will niches in the industry emerge where human software engineering and craft is still valued and slop is kept out (and which are not morally rotten in some other way)?While in the worst case it will suck quite a lot for a moment, I can fairly confidently affirm that such a thing will happen.At worst only those who value Free Software and its licenses enough to just reject LLMs outright will be the ones to not fall for any amount of time.High-assurance stuff is unlikely to get contaminated for very long if at all, the lack of reliability makes itself manifest very quickly. Any others who care about long-term reliability and maintainability will reach similar conclusions.