[HN Gopher] India orders smartphone makers to preload state-owne...
___________________________________________________________________
India orders smartphone makers to preload state-owned cyber safety
app
Author : jmsflknr
Score : 356 points
Date : 2025-12-01 06:30 UTC (16 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.reuters.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.reuters.com)
| qwerty59 wrote:
| Very concerning. I will be suprised if companies like apple
| comply though.
| goku12 wrote:
| As concerning as it is, this is just another addition to the
| pile of malware that a modern smartphone is. Everyone including
| SoC manufacturer, RF baseband manufacturer, OEM, OS developer,
| browser developer and app developers add their own opaque
| blobs, hidden executable rings, lockdown measures, attestation
| layers, telemetry, trojan apps, hidden permissions and more.
|
| We lost the game when we allowed these players to impose limits
| on us in the way we can use the device that we bought with our
| hard earned money. Even modifying the root image of these OSes
| is treated like some sort of criminal activity. And there are
| enough people around ready to gaslight us with the stories
| about grandma's security, RF regulations, etc. Yet, its the
| extensive custom mods like Lineage OS that offer any form of
| security. Their extensive lockdown only leads to higher usage
| costs and a mountain of malware.
|
| We really need to demand control over our own devices. We
| should fight to outlaw any restrictions on the ways we can use
| our own devices. We should strongly condemn and shame the
| people who try to gaslight us for their greed and duplicity.
| nunobrito wrote:
| Good to see someone well-informed. There is a lot being on
| that topic, you are not alone.
| charlie-83 wrote:
| I completely agree with you but I'm not sure I can really
| think of a solution for the RF baseband problem. I really
| don't want to live in a world where everyone's wifi signal is
| terrible because lots of stupid software devs decided to
| boost the RF power for their product to make it work better.
| hurutparittya wrote:
| Is there any person or organization out there doing
| significant work against remote attestation being a thing?
| I'd love to support them.
| alephnerd wrote:
| > I will be suprised if companies like apple comply though
|
| They will.
|
| All tech companies already comply with India's IT Act. And
| India now manufactures 44% of all iPhones sold in the US [0]
| while dangling the stick of a $38B anti-trust fine [6] but also
| the carrot of implementing China-style labor laws [10] that
| Apple lobbied for [11], so Apple doesn't have much of a choice
| because both China and Vietnam (the primary competitors for
| this segment of manufacturing) have similar regulations while
| not shielding them from Chinese competitors. Samsung is in the
| same boat at 25% of their manufacturing globally being done in
| India in CY24 [1] while is also trying to further entrench
| itself [2][8][9] due to existential competition from Chinese
| vendors [3][7].
|
| Heck, Apple complied with similar regulations in Russia [7]
| before the Ukraine War despite being a smaller market than
| India with no Apple manufacturing, engineering, or capex
| presence.
|
| All large companies who face existential threats from Chinese
| competitors have no choice but to entrench in India as it's the
| only large market with barriers against direct Chinese
| competition - ASEAN has an expansive FTA with China which has
| lead both South Korea, Japan, and Taiwan to lose their staying
| power in countries like Vietnam, Indonesia, and Thailand where
| Chinese competitors are being given the red carpet, and Brazil
| is in the process of one as well.
|
| And the Indian government is taking full advantage of this to
| get large companies to bend to Indian laws, as can be seen with
| the damocles sword of tax enforcement on Volkswagen [4] while
| negotiating an FTA with the EU and a potential $38B anti-trust
| fine against Apple [5] while negotiating a BTA with the US.
| It's the same playbook China used when it was in India's
| current position in the late 2000s and early 2010s.
|
| Finally, India was in a de facto war earlier this year against
| Pakistan (Chinese manufactured missiles landed near my
| ancestral home along with plenty of Turkish and Chinese drones)
| along with a suicide bombing in India's Tiannamen Square (the
| Red Fort) a couple weeks ago [12], so anything national
| security has a _bit_ more credence and leeway.
|
| [0] - https://scw-mag.com/news/apples-supply-shift-to-india-
| speeds...
|
| [1] - https://www.techinasia.com/news/samsung-to-broaden-
| manufactu...
|
| [2] - https://www.chosun.com/english/industry-
| en/2025/11/25/SLEYWT...
|
| [3] -
| https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20251118VL205/2030-samsung-s...
|
| [4] -
| https://www.ft.com/content/6ec91d4a-2f37-4a01-9132-6c7ae5b06...
|
| [5] - https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/boards-policy-
| regulat...
|
| [6] - https://www.macrumors.com/2021/03/16/apple-to-offer-
| governme...
|
| [7] -
| https://www.businesskorea.co.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=...
|
| [8] - https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20250903PD208/samsung-
| india-...
|
| [9] - https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20241212PR200/samsung-
| india-...
|
| [10] -
| https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-11-21/india-imp...
|
| [11] -
| https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-03-21/apple-see...
|
| [12] - https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/india-
| intensi...
| hparadiz wrote:
| This is the Achilles heel of having a closed platform.
| Eventually the government dictates what's supposed to be in
| it.
| alephnerd wrote:
| Even an open platform would do nothing. If you are a
| suspect, your phone would be checked in person (India
| doesn't have the concept of the 4th Amendment, and police
| demanding physical access to your phone during a search is
| routine) and if you were using something like GrapheneOS,
| it would be used as evidence against you. Indian law
| enforcement has already used access to Signal and Telegram
| as circumstantial evidence in various cases, and it's a
| simple hop to create a similar circumstantial evidence
| trail with someone using GrapheneOS.
|
| And anyhow, major Android vendors like Samsung have aligned
| with the policy as well.
| BenjiWiebe wrote:
| If it was open, truly open, wouldn't using GrapheneOS be
| easier and far more common than it is now?
| nunobrito wrote:
| That distro is seriously not good for your privacy.
|
| DYR (deeper) and support less dodgy options like
| LineageOS.
| handedness wrote:
| > That distro is seriously not good for your privacy.
|
| How so?
|
| > DYR (deeper)
|
| Care to help with that?
| nunobrito wrote:
| That distro is promoted ad nauseam here, most
| cybersecurity experts write their arguments to warn
| people but it gets tiresome to repeat the same arguments
| over and over again every week.
|
| There is a search box on the bottom of this page, just
| research for yourself and learn what this is about.
| OutOfHere wrote:
| FUD
| ivell wrote:
| > and it's a simple hop to create a similar
| circumstantial evidence trail with someone using
| GrapheneOS.
|
| I think this is a bit exaggerated for effect. No one in
| India considers having a Linux laptop as being
| circumstantial evidence in case of a crime. Whereas
| having Tor installed would be.
| iancarroll wrote:
| Even in mainland China, where iOS does have a large amount of
| changes to comply with local regulations, Apple does not pre-
| install any apps from anyone.
| alephnerd wrote:
| China doesn't require pre-installed apps but the Chinese
| government require all data processing and storage to be
| conducted within China with complete source code access.
|
| India chose to back off on data sovereignty [0] because it
| would have had a side effect of making Indian IT Offshoring
| less competitive plus to help make negotiating a US-India
| BTA easier [1].
|
| [0] - https://verfassungsblog.de/cross-border-data-flows-
| and-india...
|
| [1] -
| https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-04-25/us-
| seeks-...
| iancarroll wrote:
| I don't think there is any reason to assume they would
| allow forced code execution just because they allow data
| residency for mainland accounts. And unfortunately, China
| is likely a much larger and more profitable consumer
| market than India - presumably they can still export
| phones produced inside India without this.
| browningstreet wrote:
| > making Indian IT Offshoring less competitive
|
| So does a security backdoor in every mobile device used
| by said Indian offshoring staff.
| tacker2000 wrote:
| Most people in China install Wechat by choice, anyway
| bilbo0s wrote:
| > _Even in mainland China [..] Apple does not pre-install
| any apps from anyone._
|
| That's because China has no regulation obliging them to do
| so.
|
| China takes the other, more comprehensive, route to privacy
| invasion. Sucking up every bit of data at the router.
| iancarroll wrote:
| The GFW is certainly looking for traffic to block, but it
| is not really going to invade much privacy, as it cannot
| decrypt anything using HTTPS/TLS.
| largbae wrote:
| GFW does indeed have man in the middle capabilities per
| the recent leaks of Geedge tech used in it. Your laptop
| might throw a warning for the fake signed cert, but
| devices in China that trust Chinese root CAs would not.
| wildylion wrote:
| And these mofos complied to the request to block VPN apps on
| iPhones in Russia. Think about companies that cooperated with
| the Nazis.
| embedding-shape wrote:
| Do they actually have a choice? Usually with laws and orders
| from the government, you can't do much than either go with the
| flow, try to lobby against it afterwards, or straight up refuse
| and leave the market. Considering Apple's ties to India, I feel
| like Apple is unlikely to leave, so that really only leaves
| Apple with the first; comply and complain.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _Do they actually have a choice?_
|
| Yes. Apple's revenues are half as much as the government of
| India's [1][2]. That's a resource advantage that gives
| Cupertino real leverage against New Delhi.
|
| [1] https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2025/10/apple-reports-
| fourth-... _$102.5bn / quarter_
|
| [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_govern
| men... _$827bn / year_
| jonplackett wrote:
| Apple need India though. They're moving a lot of their
| manufacturing there to derisk from a China.
|
| Also, they gave in to the CCP and always say 'we obey the
| laws of the countries in which we operate'.
|
| Apple is, at the end of the day, just a business.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _Apple need India though. They're moving a lot of their
| manufacturing there to derisk from a China_
|
| That creates obligations both ways. Put another way,
| Apple is an increasingly-major employer in India.
|
| The real carrot New Delhi has is its growing middle
| class. The real carrot Apple has is its aspirational
| branding.
|
| > _they gave in to the CCP and always say 'we obey the
| laws of the countries in which we operate '_
|
| Apple regularly negotiates and occasionally openly fights
| laws its disagrees with. This would be no different.
| Cupertino is anything but lazy and nihilistic. Mandated
| installation opens a door they've fought hard to keep
| shut because it carries global precedent.
| et-al wrote:
| I fear (Apple) will do something that allows the
| government to do what it wants (with a bit more work)
| without explicitly installing something.
|
| For example, with the UK encryption debacle, Apple
| removed Advanced Data Protections (e2e encryption) for
| iCloud users in the UK. So users' notes, photos, emails
| are possibly open.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _fear will do something that allows the government to
| do what it wants (with a bit more work) without
| explicitly installing something_
|
| Why this isn't being done at the SIM/baseband level is
| beyond me.
| stackedinserter wrote:
| "Leave us alone or we'll cancel our plans and move
| somewhere else"
| ivell wrote:
| Like any business Apple needs growth to satisfy the
| shareholders. New growth would come from India and China.
| Apple didn't leave China and neither it will leave India.
| India can and will survive without Apple. Though having it
| in the country would be good for optics.
|
| The moment mobile companies locked down sideloading,
| ability to uninstall bundled software, etc., they made it
| impossible to argue techincally against bundled,
| uninstallable software from the government.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _Apple didn 't leave China and neither it will leave
| India. India can and will survive without Apple_
|
| They can both survive without each other. But neither is
| going to break the arrangement without a lot of pain.
| They have mutual leverage with each other, and that
| becomes particularly material when one stops treating
| India as a monolith.
|
| > _India can and will survive without Apple. Though
| having it in the country would be good for optics_
|
| Most people aren't content with merely surviving.
| ivell wrote:
| > Most people aren't content with merely surviving.
|
| I think you overestimate the importance of Apple to
| India. It is just a company. And actually not the biggest
| employer or most tax paying one either.
|
| Apple is not the only vendor in India and has also not
| the most sold phone.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _you overestimate the importance of Apple to India. It
| is just a company_
|
| If New Delhi wants to smite Apple it obviously can. That
| isn't the question. It's if Apple can bargain for a
| better deal. I think the answer is yes.
|
| The starting point would be finding the fault lines
| between the folks in India arguing for this policy and
| those who don't care or are hostile to it.
| jeroenhd wrote:
| Apple has built an entire alternative iMessage+iCloud setup
| in China to comply with government regulation. They also
| bowed to the UK's demands to disable E2EE backups.
|
| They'll probably try to make the app as non-shitty as they
| possibly can, and will probably leverage all kinds of
| geographical restrictions and whatnot to isolate the impact
| of these changes, but when threatened with a large market
| share hit, Apple will comply.
| brendoelfrendo wrote:
| Why wouldn't they? If Apple doesn't comply, the Indian
| government could force them to withdraw from the market or
| otherwise make their lives difficult. I can't see Apple or
| their shareholders caring about privacy enough to abandon such
| a large market.
| fsflover wrote:
| You shouldn't be: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26644216
| GuinansEyebrows wrote:
| have you seen what Tim Apple has been up to lately with his own
| government?
| hsuduebc2 wrote:
| They are doing this for US from the beginning so it is only
| matter of time or carefully applied pressure. This is only a
| PR.
| oldjim798 wrote:
| Honestly shocked it took this long for governments to start doing
| this; it seemed inevitable that governments would want all the
| data private entities have been enjoying.
|
| More and more it seems like the benefits of being connected are
| not worth the cost of being so visible to so many hostile (state
| and non-state) actors
| okokwhatever wrote:
| Yeah, internet is a dead star in so many ways this days.
| Repetitive, addictive and a private data sucker. I'm already
| starting to buy programming books and offline content preparing
| for a radical semi-disconnection.
| stickfigure wrote:
| What stops someone from loading GrapheneOS on their (Indian)
| Android phone?
| alephnerd wrote:
| It will be used as evidence that the person who has GrapheneOS
| on their phone is attempting to break the law. Telegram and
| Signal chats are often used as circumstantial evidence of
| malfeasance in Indian national security cases, so the jump to
| using GrapheneOS as evidence of malfesance is tiny.
| OutOfHere wrote:
| FUD
| nosianu wrote:
| "Cops in this country think everyone using a Google Pixel
| must be a drug dealer" (because of GrapheneOS)
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44473694
|
| https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/114784469162979608
|
| > _European authoritarians and their enablers in the media
| are misrepresenting GrapheneOS and even Pixel phones as if
| they 're something for criminals. GrapheneOS is opposed to
| the mass surveillance police state these people want to
| impose on everyone._
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| India already considers communications they can't monitor
| illegal. Specifically, satellite communication devices. Not
| just the crazy expensive satellite phones, but the satellite
| texting devices a lot of us backcountry types have. And some
| have been arrested for having them. Yeah, terrorists have
| used such stuff, but to us it's 911 for when we are far from
| the cell grid.
| numpad0 wrote:
| ... secure boot?
|
| I don't understand "just load GrapheneOS" sentiments. It only
| runs on extremely specific flagship devices with explicit
| features that allow it that are out of financial and technical
| reach for >99.9% of population of Earth and it still fully
| relies on AOSP. It's an escape hatch for mice. Or is it really
| not that way?
| nunobrito wrote:
| It is a dodgy Android distro for several reasons.
|
| LineageOS has no such shenanigans nor has a pattern of
| suspicious funding.
| handedness wrote:
| > It is a dodgy Android distro for several reasons.
|
| What are these reasons?
|
| > LineageOS has no such shenanigans nor has a pattern of
| suspicious funding.
|
| What pattern of suspicious funding?
| nunobrito wrote:
| There are threads on YC almost every week/month promoting
| that dodgy distro. Inside them are the comments with
| proper details from plenty of other YC users.
|
| For the sake of avoiding repetition or bias, just do your
| own research. There is a search box at the end of the
| page.
| snapcaster wrote:
| you're all over this thread saying this, can you link an
| article or at least explain what you mean?
| nunobrito wrote:
| It is tiresome to repeat every single time the arguments
| that so many other cyber experts have also mentioned
| including here on YC. This is quite the common knowledge
| by now.
|
| Kindly use the search box on the bottom of the page.
| bastard_op wrote:
| Mostly the fact that GrapheneOS only works on Google Pixel
| hardware currently and vendor unlock status. It's the only
| available phone hardware that provides full bootloader unlock
| capabilities AND suitable security protections baked into the
| secure enclave and boot process, including things like rate
| limiting in hardware like password cracking attempts via
| external brute-force input means, lockdown of usb ports until
| boot unlocked with a pin, etc. Their website spells out all the
| reasons.
|
| Other phone makers _could_ if they wanted to do the same, but
| _do not_ as an active choice, or at least _somebody 's_ choice
| above them.
| notRobot wrote:
| Custom ROMs fail device integrity, which means you cannot use
| banking, financial, government, payments and telcom apps, not
| to mention all the games that refuse to work.
| catlikesshrimp wrote:
| Google, the phone manufacturer and now the state running
| bloatware on my phone. I will have three dialers, calendars, etc.
| All of them uninstallable
| poly2it wrote:
| Get GrapheneOS. The installation is painless and the OS
| surperior. No mainstream phone OS is viable in the privacy and
| security nightmare of today.
|
| https://grapheneos.org/
| __rito__ wrote:
| I wouldn't venture in the direction that many here will take.
|
| I will point out that India have the highest number of victims of
| cyber-fraud. I personally know many people who have lost
| significant sums through social engineering attacks. The money is
| transferred to multiple mule accounts and physical cash is
| siphoned off to the fraudsters by the owners of those account.
| They choose helpless, illiterate, village dwelling account
| holders for this.
|
| Another huge issue is unregulated loan apps. There are horror
| stories of people installing apps in order to take high-interest
| loans and then those apps stealing their private photos and
| contacts or accessing camera to take photos in private moments,
| and then sending those photos to contacts via WhatsApp when
| interest payment is overdue.
|
| Then there are obvious security issues with terrorism and
| organized crime.
|
| The government wants data. It's clear why. There is huge
| potential for misuse.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _I will point out that India have the highest number of
| victims of cyber-fraud_
|
| Based on what?
|
| > _Another huge issue is unregulated loan apps_
|
| You don't need to root everyone's phones to regulate financial
| crime.
|
| > _Then there are obvious security issues with terrorism and
| organized crime_
|
| India is building a centralised backdoor into every phone in
| the country. That's a _massive_ national security risk.
| lallysingh wrote:
| The way for the community to fight this is to keep finding
| holes in the app until they stop trying to put one on.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _way for the community to fight this is to keep finding
| holes in the app until they stop trying to put one on_
|
| I'm not familiar with Indian activist tradition. But if we
| look at other countries where this happened, the technical
| attacks didn't work. It had to be done through policy,
| instead.
| __rito__ wrote:
| > Based on what?
|
| Yahoo Finance report that's 3 years old, puts India at #4:
| https://finance.yahoo.com/news/15-countries-most-cyber-
| crime...
|
| But 2024 data from PIB puts the number of occurrence much
| higher at 2.27 million: https://www.pib.gov.in/PressNoteDetai
| ls.aspx?NoteId=155384&M...
|
| > You don't need to root everyone's phones to regulate
| financial crime.
|
| Yes, I agree. Read this comment:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46113070
|
| > India is building a centralised backdoor into every phone
| in the country. That's a massive national security risk.
|
| Are these what backdoors are? It's an app. It can be
| uninstalled, right? Are there physical backdoors like
| American agency NSA tried to install? Or like the Chinese
| phones that many suspect?
|
| - https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/privacy-
| scandal-n...
|
| - https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/xiaomis-phones-had-a-
| securi...
| marginalx wrote:
| And you trust the government to only use it for good purposes?
| and not to track people who may be protesting or belong to
| opposing political/religious/cultural views? We know based on
| historical pegasus complaints that this trust has to be earned
| and can't be given.
|
| There are lots of ways to solve for this, mandating that these
| companies own the identification process through their systems,
| report misuse, govern apps. Why taken on the ownership of a
| process that is better handled outside of government while the
| government holds them to account via huge fines and timelines
| but giving these large companies ownership of protection from
| scams or stolen phones etc...? win win and I think these large
| companies are due spending extra money to protect their users
| anyway.
| roncesvalles wrote:
| Automatic mistrust of the government is a pretty juvenile
| take. Yes there are tons of ways, and having OEMs preload an
| app is the easiest one in a country of 1.1B mobile
| connections.
| crumpled wrote:
| > Automatic mistrust of the government is a pretty juvenile
| take.
|
| This statement seems naive at best and manipulative at
| worst.
| marginalx wrote:
| So, if you have tons of ways - you vote for the way that
| could lead to potentially the most exploitation of the
| population? No one is saying it "will" be exploited, but
| the potential itself should steer the solution clear off
| that direction.
| __rito__ wrote:
| I don't trust anyone blindly. The point of my comment was not
| to support the decision, but to show where it might be coming
| from.
|
| What's inherent in the comment is- there are simply too many
| people to educate, "made aware", etc. So, this might be a
| knee-jerk reaction to fight cyber fraud. Not Big Brother
| sensorship.
|
| I can say these because I know too much about the ground
| reality. An example from top of my head- SBI e-Rupee app
| doesn't launch in your phone if you have Discord installed.
| Yeah. Just because some scammers communicated through
| Discord.
|
| Of course, I cannot guarantee that something sinister is not
| being planned or that this app won't be utilized for
| something bad.
|
| There is also a small chance of some bureaucrat in management
| position taking this decision, so he can write in his report-
| "Made Sanchar Saathi app download soar up to X millions in 3
| months through diligent effort..." just like highly placed
| PMs/SVPs in large tech companies eyeing a promotion.
| kylehotchkiss wrote:
| Gonna agree with you, even Singapore has announced several
| policy changes the past few weeks to deal with all the fraud -
| more severe punishment and forcing apple to change how iMessage
| spam with .gov.sg domains is handled.
|
| I don't think this new app will resolve India's fraud issues
| unfortunately, there probably needs to be more policy changes
| at banks/fincos. As much as India obsesses with KYC processes,
| it doesn't seem to be working/enough. I don't see this new app
| being required as something totalitarian, it would be much
| easier for the gov to ask for that type of stuff to be tacked
| on to UPI apps anyways.
| lallysingh wrote:
| Yeah this is the wrong audience for this argument, but it has
| merit. An app like this can be _both_ a massive government
| power grab _and_ useful to protect many, many people who are
| vulnerable to fraud.
|
| The number of my relatives that will just believe whatever
| someone tells them on the phone is terrifying.
| marginalx wrote:
| This is quite dismissive of the audience, how do you suggest
| this app protects the people from believing whatever someone
| says?
| thisisit wrote:
| > I will point out that India have the highest number of
| victims of cyber-fraud
|
| Combined with worst enforcement and investigation efforts to
| tackle this issue. The default resolution on a cyber crime
| report is : Fraudster's account is blocked and they are given a
| choice to plead forgiveness from the accuser. They often return
| the money in lieu of the complaint being rescinded. Then
| fraudster is free to con others. Fraudsters know this is a
| numbers game that is why they hit every morsel they can get a
| bite.
|
| Worse yet people use the cyber crime provision to take revenge.
| People can file frivolous cases without proof and ge others
| account locked. Banks will treat you with disdain and police
| will tell you to settle privately too.
|
| What about investigations you ask? Very few cases reach that
| level. Local police file the FIR and they don't even know what
| is "cyber" in cyber crime. Fraudsters can continue playing the
| numbers game.
|
| So, yes it is easy to talk about victims when the policies are
| lacking. And then this high number of victims can be used as a
| crutch to push insecure apps on everyone's phones. The worst
| part of it? They will get data and still remain clueless and
| inept in solving the high number of cyber crimes.
| __rito__ wrote:
| Local police stations often refuse to file even an FIR. The
| reason we have such good data, is possibly due to the banks
| reporting them.
|
| If it were up to the police, then we wouldn't even hear about
| 25% of the cases.
| profsummergig wrote:
| ref: "the new tobacco"
|
| this last year i'm seeing very concerning behavior in students in
| the 14-20 range. complete addiction to their phones. very deep
| interests in things i was completely unaware that they existed.
| similar to how when i started noticing anime girlfriends/waifus
| in 2016.
|
| about 40% are deep in discord communities where i literally
| cannot figure out a single sentence of what they're talking
| about.
|
| if society doesn't do something, and soon, say goodbye to the
| cognitive ability of a large chunk of future generations.
| ikmckenz wrote:
| > very deep interests in things i was completely unaware that
| they existed ... say goodbye to the cognitive ability of a
| large chunk of future generations
|
| I would think very deep interests in niche or obscure topics is
| correlated with increased cognitive ability, not a decrease.
| profsummergig wrote:
| anime waifus?
| AlexandrB wrote:
| > very deep interests in things i was completely unaware
| that they existed
|
| That's just a symptom of getting old. Young people always
| find stuff that baffles adults. When I was a teenager,
| Anime itself was like this - just being " _into_ " anime
| was considered some kind of bizarre, obscure affectation by
| adults.
|
| I think smartphones present real challenges (and I don't
| get how/why they're allowed in schools), but a lot of what
| you're describing is normal.
| krelas wrote:
| > about 40% are deep in discord communities where i literally
| cannot figure out a single sentence of what they're talking
| about.
|
| I feel like the same could be said of an at the time adult
| looking at my IRC or MSN Messenger logs from when I was a teen.
| malfist wrote:
| The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt
| for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter
| in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the
| servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders
| enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before
| company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and
| tyrannize their teachers.
| markdown wrote:
| - Sir Humphrey Applebee, 1773.
| Jordan-117 wrote:
| Got some example words or phrases? When I hear stuff like this
| I'm curious how much is just your standard "out of touch adult"
| stuff and how much is genuinely bizarre niche rabbitholes.
| meindnoch wrote:
| Is this an "old man yells at cloud" impersonation?
| pixelmelt wrote:
| > very deep interests in things i was completely unaware that
| they existed
|
| as one of said students, I would just call these hobbies!
| marginalx wrote:
| "With 5 million total downloads - the app has saved 3.7 million
| lost phones", this somehow doesn't add up for me, as this implies
| more than 74% of phones are stolen? Or this this govt lying to
| pad the numbers to make the app look like a sheep in wolves
| clothing.
| rishabhaiover wrote:
| I'm shocked by people and state using the crutch of cyber crime
| or scams to push a totalitarian solution to a problem that is
| better solved by improved education and targeted campaigns
| against common security pitfalls.
|
| I abhor any decision that robs even a grain of my individual
| freedom.
| djohnston wrote:
| I share your abhorrence but are you really shocked? "Think of
| the children", "Stop the terrorists," these have been the
| foundations for the erosion of personal liberty for the past
| thirty years.
| politelemon wrote:
| And long before that too, it's just taken different
| soundbites that play on people's fears at the time.
| nephihaha wrote:
| In the UK, they've used variously terrorism, illegal
| migration and pornography to push this.
| hsuduebc2 wrote:
| It's actually much more older argument. Hurr durr muh
| children is so common in history yet so effective that this
| is beyond absurd.
| x0x0 wrote:
| > improved education and targeted campaigns against common
| security pitfalls
|
| Which doesn't work. At all. A familiarity with the last 40
| years of computing makes that clear.
|
| The only things that have worked: ios/android walled gardens so
| users can't install spyware. yubikeys which can't be phished.
| etc.
| psychoslave wrote:
| The problem iscontrolling people at intimate thought level.
| Sure education is part of it. But state controlled device
| tracking everything they say, where they go and who they are
| exchanging with is also a tool to leverage on in that
| perspective.
| DeepSeaTortoise wrote:
| IMO the goal is a bit different. It'd be just way too much
| data to track people successfully, even with on-device
| filtering, especially because everyone with ill intentions
| would just use non-backdoored devices for their malicious
| activities.
|
| A much more achievable goal is digging up dirt on specific
| people and opponents. In the end governments can struggle to
| justify how they got their hands on info about an affair you
| had or that you shocked dogs ~~on stream~~.
|
| Such device backdoors are just a get-out-court-free card and
| a way for the media to justify not asking any serious
| questions.
| 4ndrewl wrote:
| First they came for the etc, etc...
| staplers wrote:
| You're assuming the problem the govt is referencing is their
| actual goal.
| satvikpendem wrote:
| > _improved education and targeted campaigns against common
| security pitfalls_
|
| Good one. Do you see how dumb the average consumer is? They
| don't know or care even if you try to educate them.
| dingnuts wrote:
| I shouldn't have to accept government surveillance just
| because 15% of the population is functionally illiterate. We
| should have support structures for those people as a society,
| but "dumb people exist" is a fucking horrible argument for
| why I should have my freedom restricted
| chasil wrote:
| You don't have to.
|
| This is the most secure option:
|
| https://grapheneos.org/
|
| This is more flexible and will give you root, at the cost
| of an unlocked bootloader:
|
| https://lineageos.org/
| throwawayqqq11 wrote:
| Considering that AI companies are strategically/financially
| in the same position as other market cornering companies like
| uber, imagine how much dumber things can get.
| vlovich123 wrote:
| Maybe but there's a fair amount of corruption going on in
| India. For example, they got caught spraying water near air
| quality monitors (at them?) to make the data seem better than
| it is instead of actually tackling the problem.
| satvikpendem wrote:
| That's sadly how the culture is in India. I wish it
| improved to be more like Japan or China but I'm not sure
| how one can solve this sort of issue.
| DeepSeaTortoise wrote:
| Require all people who received higher education to work
| for their country first for 15 to 20 years.
|
| There's no point in being able to buy an outrageously
| fancy toilet with remittances if there's no sewer to hook
| it up to.
| dotnet00 wrote:
| That would be a great way to make the brain drain even
| worse.
| et-al wrote:
| FYI two years ago, the Indian government shut down mobile
| service in the state of Punjab to catch one person:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35303486
| aussieguy1234 wrote:
| I don't buy their reasoning.
|
| With all the mobile tracking tech, I would have thought that
| it would have been easier to catch the person if they had a
| working phone on them.
| croes wrote:
| > I abhor any decision that robs even a grain of my individual
| freedom.
|
| Living in a society already means giving up more than a grain
| of personal freedom.
|
| Try entering a store naked.
|
| The real deal is the balance between loss and gain
| eptcyka wrote:
| Ye, and this move is not balanced.
| croes wrote:
| They take more than a grain and the gain is debatable
| ridiculous_leke wrote:
| > problem that is better solved by improved education and
| targeted campaigns against common security pitfalls
|
| Will take decades if not more than a century to implement in
| India. Let alone old people, even the boomer generation is
| immensely tech illiterate.
| skeeter2020 wrote:
| the fact that this is being done privately shows they know it's
| dirty and immoral.
| MonkeyClub wrote:
| > I'm shocked
|
| India is currently run by a nationalist regime headed by the so
| called "butcher of Gujarat"[1], there isn't much that would
| shock me wrt to that lot's totalitarian tendencies.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_image_of_Narendra_Modi
| nephihaha wrote:
| Mate, this isn't even remotely "nationalist". This stuff is
| being pushed across the world. Digital ID? The only people
| really desperate for it are our rulers.
| observationist wrote:
| It's funny how it's all rolling out right around the same
| time. Almost like they get together and plot this stuff at
| big meetings multiple times a year, where they get lavish
| meals and entertainment, get wined and dined by the rich
| and elite, and... well. Must be good to be kings.
|
| It's really 4 horsemen of the infocalypse garbage being
| trotted out, and the general population is clueless and
| credulous. "They're in charge, surely they must know what
| they're doing! They wouldn't lie to us! They most assuredly
| have our collective best interests in mind, and they'll do
| the right thing!"
| brokenmachine wrote:
| >"They're in charge, surely they must know what they're
| doing! They wouldn't lie to us!
|
| Literally nobody thinks that.
|
| Unfortunately most people don't have the time or energy
| to fight every emerging attack on freedom.
|
| Everything is going to plan for the billionaire class.
|
| Eventually everything will burn, only time will tell if
| it will be from global warming or food riots.
| observationist wrote:
| Most average people assume competence and good faith from
| people in charge. Most people don't question, aren't
| skeptical, and go through life in a fog. That's not most
| people here, but it's like Gell-Mann amnesia applied to
| politics. 99% of the time, when politicians put forth a
| plan to do things in a domain you're competent in, they
| look like morons. It's exceedingly rare for them to do
| things well.
|
| People trust elected officials, they trust institutions,
| they trust "experts", the media, the academics. A vast
| majority of people don't realize the scale of ineptitude
| amongst the people who wield power. Most of the "elites"
| are not overqualified geniuses, but instead average
| bumbling idiots who stumbled their way into office, or
| sociopaths, or physically attractive. Most political
| systems do not reward competence and diligence.
|
| You could swap out all 535 congress people in the US for
| randomly selected citizens and I guarantee you that
| outcomes would improve. Things are going so badly because
| they're intended to go badly, because unethical people
| wield power for self enrichment and cronyism. The purpose
| of a system is what it does.
| MonkeyClub wrote:
| > this isn't even remotely "nationalist"
|
| Yep, I'm with you, I agree that the underlying power plays
| are fully harmonious with global (and globalist) trends.
|
| With "nationalist" I was referring to the BJP's "hindutva"
| ideology, which is essentially a nation-centric ideology of
| "India for Hindus" (minorities and non-upper-caste/non-
| brahmanic forms of Hinduism be damned).
| profsummergig wrote:
| An ugly truth, one that must never be spoken too loudly,
| is that most of the people designated "lower castes" by
| the "upper caste" Hindus, and others designated "tribals"
| (adivasis), follow a variety of ancient pagan personal
| "religions" (belief systems) that are "Hindu" in name
| only. They don't actually consider themselves
| "Brahminical Hindus", and are forced to identify (by the
| "Brahminical Hindus") as such (because that's the only
| choice available to them, in census forms, etc.).
| lxgr wrote:
| The lack of digital ID is a huge problem in many domains
| and enables a lot of scams and crime in the first place.
|
| _Requiring identification in situations that don 't need
| it_ is where the problems start, but that's possible with
| analog IDs as well, and is often even worse there (since
| these provide neither security against digital copies, nor
| privacy, which digital ID can, e.g. via zero knowledge
| proofs).
| nextos wrote:
| Personally, I liked the low-tech solution of code cards +
| password (2FA), used by e.g. Denmark as digital ID, now
| discontinued. I am aware that it is imperfect, and if you
| are not careful with MITM attacks you can get in trouble,
| but it was a good compromise to avoid the temptation to
| track citizens. Something like a hardware TAN generator,
| but with protection against MITM, would be an ideal
| compromise. The current trend of moving towards mobile
| apps that require hardware attestation is worrying.
| artursapek wrote:
| wow even a grain? you must really love your freedom
| tecoholic wrote:
| Well, we are talking about a government that declared 95%
| currency in circulation as invalid to nullify "black money" and
| rationed out currency for months. Currently they are doing an
| electoral list validation by asking everyone to submit a form
| so they can keep their voting rights. The policies are made
| with a strong "ruler" attitude.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| Do we have a breakdown of what this app actually does?
| alephnerd wrote:
| https://sancharsaathi.gov.in/
|
| Basically IMEI stamping because sim card purchase with ID has
| come to be viewed as flawed/compromised by NatSec types in
| India. Here's some additional context from a previous thread on
| HN [0]
|
| [0] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40476498
|
| ------
|
| Edit: Can't reply
|
| Lots of old phones still exist, so a virtual/eSIM does nothing
| to give visibility into those devices.
|
| Also, India wants to own the complete end-to-end supply chain
| for electronics like what China did in the early 2010s, so
| India has been subsidizing legacy, highly commodified
| electronic component manufacturing [0] - of which physical SIMs
| are a major component because they both help subsidize
| semiconductor packaging as well as IoT/Smart Card
| manufacturing. A mix of international [1][2] and domestic
| players [3] have been leveraging physical SIM manufacturing in
| India as a way to climb up the value chain.
|
| On a separate note, this is why I keep harping about India
| constantly - I'm starting to see the same trends and strategies
| arising in Delhi like those we'd see the PRC use in the late
| 2000s and early 2010s, but no one listened to me about China
| back then because they all had their priors set to the 1990s.
|
| No one took the PRC seriously until it was too late, and a
| similar thing could arise with India - we as the US cannot win
| in a world where 3 continental countries (Russia, China, India)
| are ambivalent to antagonistic against us. Even Indian policy
| papers and makers increasingly reference and even copying the
| Chinese model when thinking about policy or industrial
| development, and I've started seeing Indian LEO types starting
| to operate abroad in major ASEAN and African countries helping
| their vendors build NatSec capacity (cough cough Proforce - not
| the American one - and their Offensive Sec teams).
|
| Ironically, I've found Chinese analysts to be much more
| realistic about India's capacity [4][5] unlike Western
| commentators - and China has taken action as a result [6][7][8]
|
| [0] - https://ecms.meity.gov.in/
|
| [1] - https://www.idemia.com/press-release/idemias-production-
| faci...
|
| [2] - https://www.trasna.io/blog/trasna-eyes-asian-iot-growth-
| as-i...
|
| [3] - https://seshaasai.com/products/esim-and-sim
|
| [4] - https://finance.sina.cn/china/gjcj/2022-06-08/detail-
| imizmsc...
|
| [5] - https://www.gingerriver.com/p/vietnam-or-india-which-one-
| wil...
|
| [6] -
| https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-07-02/foxconn-p...
|
| [7] - https://www.reuters.com/world/china/india-taking-steps-
| mitig...
|
| [8] - https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-files-wto-
| complain...
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _Basically IMEI stamping because sim card purchase with ID
| has come to be viewed as flawed /compromised by NatSec types
| in India_
|
| Why not mandate virtual SIMs?
| pixelatedindex wrote:
| https://sancharsaathi.gov.in
|
| - Report fraud/scam calls and SMS directly from your phone.
|
| - Block or track lost/stolen phones by disabling their IMEI so
| they can't be misused.
|
| - View all mobile numbers registered under your ID and report
| any unauthorized SIM cards.
|
| - Verify if a phone is genuine with an IMEI/device authenticity
| check.
|
| - Report telecom misuse, such as spoofed calls or suspicious
| international numbers.
|
| The stated goal is protect users from digital fraud and safer
| telecom usage, who knows how good it'll be. Probably a PITA.
| radicaldreamer wrote:
| So a pretty transparent way to tie IMEI to someone's identity
| and track their location under the guise of "finding lost
| phones" and "checking your phone's authenticity"
| mlmonkey wrote:
| IMEI is already tied to your identity. You need ID to buy a
| phone or a SIM.
| jeroenhd wrote:
| That's already the case for most places around the world,
| unfortunately. Though, this does make the link rather
| obvious, which is a bit more surprising. Normally shady
| tracking just happens through a combination of data brokers
| and leaked databases.
| pdyc wrote:
| What should have happened is that they should have forced mobile
| vendors to allow users to uninstall all apps. What actually
| happened is that they are asking for their app to be installed as
| well, sigh.
| SilverElfin wrote:
| I assume that in the US, the major manufacturers of phones and
| their operating systems already have backdoors for national
| security reasons. I think back to the past leaks from Snowden
| regarding the PRISM program. That program specifically included
| Google and Apple cooperating with the government under the FISA
| Amendments Act of 2008.
|
| So while this state-owned cyber safety app is authoritarian, I
| wonder if it reflects just the most practical way India's
| government can achieve the same things that the US has.
| greycol wrote:
| I am not defending it's use but a secret program is a targeted
| program, you can't use it in sweeping arrests without parallel
| construction. Whereas with an openly existing program you can
| point out that someone has been talking to their friend about
| how to get abortion medication and arrest them.
|
| The real issue with 100% enforcement of law is it requires a
| society with differing values to not just agree on which laws
| exist but what just punishment is. Without leeway for differing
| social judgement or bifurcation.
| radicaldreamer wrote:
| Parallel construction is incredibly easy though with
| confidential informants and honeytraps/entrapment (for
| another crime, for example).
| mlmonkey wrote:
| These are just excuses to convince yourself that what the US
| is doing is "not bad" but what India is doing is "terrible".
|
| Both are doing similar things. You have no idea what the US
| is doing; I have some inkling, and it is terrible.
|
| At least India is publicly disclosing what this app does, and
| that the phone has this app. Do you have any idea what the US
| does?
|
| Hint: that big data center in Utah, what is it for?
|
| Another hint: the US has given many billions of dollars to US
| telecom companies under the guise of "rural broadband" and
| "rural cell service". Has the state of rural service really
| changed much in the last 30 years?? Why has all that money
| been given, then?
| mcny wrote:
| I don't get it. Don't many if not most of these scams originate
| from India? Wouldn't it be better to stop the scammers directly?
| awestroke wrote:
| If their goal was to increase the security for their citizens,
| you would have a point
| orochimaaru wrote:
| Actually it's Cambodia now.
| marginalx wrote:
| Nothing in this app stops scammers, scammers use land
| lines/voip to make calls.
| lez wrote:
| It _is_ happening, in spite many won 't really deeply believe.
| Every day 33 brits are arrested for what they say online.
|
| It's happening, and it's time we say no. It's uncomfortable, but
| we need to do it en masse, right now.
|
| Do not buy backdoored hardware, help others get rid of the
| backdoors, use anonymous technology to organize protests.
|
| There has to be a line.
| logram-llc wrote:
| Do you have a source for the Brits being arrested?
| calvinmorrison wrote:
| A Liberty GB spokesman said: "Mr Weston was standing on the
| steps of Winchester Guildhall, addressing the passers-by in
| the street with a megaphone.
|
| "He quoted an excerpt about Islam from the book The River War
| by Winston Churchill.
|
| "Reportedly, a woman came out of the Guildhall and asked Mr
| Weston if he had the authorisation to make this speech.
|
| "When he answered that he didn't, she told him: 'It's
| disgusting', and then called the police.
|
| "Six or seven officers arrived. They talked with the people
| standing nearby, asking questions about what had happened.
|
| "The police had a long discussion with Mr Weston, lasting
| about 40 minutes.
|
| "At about 3pm he was arrested. They searched him, put him in
| a police van and took him away."
| rpcope1 wrote:
| You got a loiscence for that speech?
|
| If even half of that is true, I can't fathom why someone
| would willingly live in that total shithole of a country.
| calvinmorrison wrote:
| willingly live in their homeland? yeah i don't know
| either bro
| guywithahat wrote:
| I'm not OP but a quick yandex search (google isn't great for
| conservative news) suggests ~12k people were arrested last
| year for speech. https://nypost.com/2025/08/19/world-news/uk-
| free-speech-stru...
|
| This article says 10k
| https://www.zerohedge.com/political/britains-speech-gulag-
| ex...
|
| More broadly it's been a huge issue for a while, tons of
| articles come out of the UK for people being arrested for
| criticizing politicians/policies. Even more dystopian is it's
| hard to report on, because the police might come after you
| for talking about it. Germany is having similar issues, it's
| easy to forget most of the world (including Europe) doesn't
| have free speech
| dietr1ch wrote:
| Brits get arrested for even supporting peace, I don't feel I
| need to verify this claim.
|
| https://www.instagram.com/p/DRkQRFdjWMm/
| theglenn88_ wrote:
| This is probably one of the best ones
| https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9dj1zlvxglo
|
| Edit: I believe they are now getting compensation for a
| 'wrongful arrest' which, sounds entirely deserved.
| Kelteseth wrote:
| I didn't find any context for your claim so here is some reddit
| comment:
|
| So it's true 3,300 people were arrested for posts online. What
| they don't tell you are the statistics or context. The actual
| law for these arrests covers EVERYTHING online. These arrests
| include those arrested for terrorism (if the planning/act of
| terror includes any online communication in the UK), threats of
| violence, racist abuse, hate speech and unwanted communication
| (including sending unsolicited sexual photos to strangers). It
| also includes spreading false information that could cause harm
| or affect an ingoing investigation.
|
| If you look at convictions, only 137 people were actually
| sentenced in 2024.
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/DebunkThis/comments/1mmux6r/comment...
| more_corn wrote:
| It also includes traveling to the United States where gun
| ownership is legal, and posting a picture of yourself holding
| a gun.
| Aurornis wrote:
| This comment is getting downvoted, but another comment
| provide a real source for this having happened to someone:
| https://archive.is/bH56T
| jeroenhd wrote:
| ... following a police complaint about stalking, against a
| man involved in a business dispute, seemingly among other
| things. He may be innocent, but there's more to the story
| than the picture of the gun.
| aydyn wrote:
| The arrest is the punishment. Here is a man getting arrested
| and subsequently harassed by the Police for 13 weeks for just
| posting a picture of himself with a shotgun in America.
|
| https://archive.is/bH56T
| hypeatei wrote:
| Or the Tennessee man held in jail for over a month for a
| Facebook meme post: https://www.wtae.com/article/tennessee-
| facebook-post-felony-...
|
| Note: this occurred in the US and not the UK but it happens
| here, too.
| dommer wrote:
| We're basically seeing this story through media summaries
| and Richelieu-Booth's own account, which means the
| narrative reflects either what he says happened or brief
| police statements. There's very little publicly available
| that allows anyone to independently confirm or contradict
| either side.
|
| Stories like this are designed to provoke a reaction, but
| the truth could be far more mundane: he might be a
| completely unreasonable person who was genuinely stalking
| someone, and police might have had credible concerns. We
| simply don't have the full picture.
|
| For balance, West Yorkshire Police do have a reputation for
| being heavy handed. the same force that used drones during
| Covid to shame people walking alone on the moors.
|
| My point is: this isn't solid evidence of Orwellian
| decline. It's difficult to draw sweeping conclusions about
| Britain from a single case built on incomplete information
| and media amplification.
| jeroenhd wrote:
| This has a bit more info:
| https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/business/orwellian-
| nightmare...
|
| Notably:
|
| > with the situation causing him considerable stress at a
| point where he was also dealing with an inquest into the
| deaths of his parents, who had both died in a car crash in
| 2023
|
| so for some reason, there was something going on about his
| parents' death two years later. The article also states:
|
| > He said the complaint against him was linked to an
| ongoing business dispute.
|
| My take is that someone used his pictures of him holding
| guns (illegal in the UK) as support for a claim that he is
| an armed and dangerous stalker. Whatever got flagged
| regarding the inquest into his parents' deaths probably
| added suspicion. Police acted quickly (as they should, but
| probably too quickly) and made mistakes, but it looks like
| they couldn't accept that they were being used, so they
| decided to continue pressing onwards with the
| investigation, hoping they were still right and wouldn't be
| on the hook for a false arrest.
|
| Getting falsely arrested is always terrible, but the way
| the media spins this as some kind of witch hunt about a
| LinkedIn post is misleading at best.
| ryanmcbride wrote:
| oh well as long as it's only happening to some people no
| problem then huh? That's okay?
| mc32 wrote:
| Can you just imagine the amount of arrests we'd have in the
| US if simply saying really offensive things at officials was
| enough to get you arrested.
|
| Using Carlin's dirty words against others you dislike or
| quoting passages from historical books should not warrant
| arrests.
| rustystump wrote:
| Ahh yes reddit the most accurate location of truth finding.
| Could you at least link the source of the comment or are we
| supposed to take a random redditor as fact?
| Aurornis wrote:
| > These arrests include those arrested for terrorism (if the
| planning/act of terror includes any online communication in
| the UK), threats of violence, racist abuse, hate speech and
| unwanted communication
|
| All of these attempts to "debunk" this statistic feel like
| they're missing the mark. How did the UK get a point where
| planning terrorism and making mean comments online go into
| the same statistic for arrests? Does it not seem strange that
| the second half of that list is worthy of arrest?
|
| > If you look at convictions, only 137 people were actually
| sentenced in 2024.
|
| This, again, does not help. Being arrested isn't a casual
| thing. It threatens everything from your job to your
| reputation and your relationships, even if you aren't
| convicted.
| jeroenhd wrote:
| > How did the UK get a point where planning terrorism and
| making mean comments online go into the same statistic for
| arrests?
|
| In most publications: because the people reporting on these
| statistics can get more views and clicks that way. FUD
| sells. If someone online can defuse the statistics, the
| reporters that spread them also could've, but chose not to.
|
| As for the second half of the list, "racist abuse, hate
| speech, and unwanted communication" are pretty common
| things to incriminate. Even the extremely liberal freedom
| of speech laws in the USA do not permit stalking ("unwanted
| communication") and racist abuse is criminalized in all
| kinds of cases (i.e. firing someone because of their race).
| belorn wrote:
| In many countries you do not get charged with every
| possible crime if there is a larger crime involve. If
| someone rob a place, they don't also need to have separate
| charges for illegally entering the place, destroying
| property when they broke the window, selling stolen goods,
| wire fraud for using the banking system, and money
| laundering for concealing that it is illegal money, and tax
| evasion. Each step is illegal on their own, but time crime
| statistics won't be written like that. The prosecutor may
| argue that if the accused are not found guilty for the
| primary, then secondaries may then be used.
|
| The strange thing is that the UK are arresting people for
| abusing the telecom system, and not for the more serious
| crime like terrorism, death threats, harassment and sexual
| harassment.
| Angostura wrote:
| Is it your view that no-one should ever be arrested for
| anything they say, in any context?
|
| > There has to be a line.
|
| Where do you draw the line?
| theglenn88_ wrote:
| I'd like to think that we all agree that you would be
| arrested for saying things in person (hate crimes, etc) would
| be the same things you'd be arrested for saying online... i'd
| place the line about there.
|
| However, there are cases which do cross the line...
| https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9dj1zlvxglo
| happyopossum wrote:
| > we all agree that you would be arrested for saying things
| in person (hate crimes, etc) would be the same things you'd
| be arrested for saying online..
|
| And that's where you'd be wrong - lots of us belief that
| speech should not be a cause for arrest except in the most
| extreme circumstances. Hurting someone's feelings is not
| that
| theglenn88_ wrote:
| > And that's where you'd be wrong - lots of us belief
| that speech should not be a cause for arrest except in
| the most extreme circumstances. Hurting someone's
| feelings is not that
|
| what is an extreme circumstance?
|
| At least in the UK, hate speech is a crime and is
| punishable by law, whether people agree or disagree is
| irrelevant, I do believe that if it's illegal on the
| street it should be illegal online, obviously in the
| relevant jurisdiction.
| tokai wrote:
| UK has been self destructing for a looong time now. While
| things aren't great globally for free speech and privacy, I
| don't think pointing to UK as an example for anything makes
| sense. They have been on their path for many decades.
| doctorpangloss wrote:
| the lowest resistance solution to e.g. cheating at school using
| ChatGPT will be spyware on kids' devices.
|
| while nobody should be arrested for speech online, here on
| hacker news, people are downvoted for saying something
| unpopular (as opposed to whatever, i don't even know what the
| criteria is, but maybe it should be "toxic") all the time. you
| are preaching to the wrong audience, not the choir.
| Waterluvian wrote:
| The price of freedom will only go up. People can't help but
| wait to buy at the last minute when it costs an arm and a leg.
| markdown wrote:
| I've seen what's said online these days. Open racism and
| bigotry. This has always been the case but now it's done
| without shame by prominent people and influencers using their
| real account. Twitter is as bad as Stormfront these days.
|
| We absolutely need to police hate speech.
|
| > There has to be a line.
|
| There is no line at all these days, with open hatred displayed.
| Fascism is on the rise across the world off the back of the
| hatred that's produced on social media.
|
| > Every day 33 brits are arrested for what they say online.
|
| They must be giving them tea and crumpets before releasing them
| to generate more hate online because it clearly isn't working.
| kwar13 wrote:
| I have to say I'm really surprised that I didn't find "fighting
| CP & terrorism" as the main push for this.
| quantum_state wrote:
| Horrible for a so-called democratic country ...
| jeroenhd wrote:
| The clipper chip was brought to us by the country that
| proclaims to spread democracy across the world. Democracies can
| be authoritarian if you scare the public enough.
| nxm wrote:
| Democrats in the US touting ,,combating hate speech" would love
| to do the same here
| spaceman_2020 wrote:
| the good news is that I'm personally on my last few years online.
| I don't think there's anything really worthwhile in this space to
| do as a contributor or even as a consumer
| Animats wrote:
| What does this app actually do, in detail? Anyone know?
| more_corn wrote:
| It doesn't matter what the app does today it can be made to do
| anything they want after the fact. Monitor speech, location,
| contacts, content, preserve evidence for prosecution,
| inspection your dinner choices or your sexual habits.
|
| This is on the far end of the spectrum of bad.
| MonkeyClub wrote:
| > It doesn't matter what the app does today it can be made to
| do anything they want after the fact.
|
| This is an extremely important point of universal application
| that can't be emphasized too much.
|
| Even if one agrees with a current politician's position, once
| the precedent is set, there's nothing stopping an
| administration down the line extending the reach of an
| already installed and by then socially accepted mechanism.
|
| Someone called this the "totalitarian tip toe"; that guy (who
| shall rename unnamed) was "a bit weird", but his concept
| stands anyway imo.
| ssivark wrote:
| This seems to be the app: https://www.sancharsaathi.gov.in/
|
| Looks like it's quire popular/established already, with over 10
| million downloads. Basically a "portal" for basic digital
| safety/hygiene related services.
|
| Quoting Perplexity regarding what facilities the app offers:
|
| 1. Chakshu: Report suspicious calls, SMS, or WhatsApp for scams
| like impersonation, fake investments, or KYC frauds.
|
| 2. Block Lost/Stolen Phones: Trace and block devices across all
| telecom networks using IMEI; track if reactivated.
|
| 3. Check Connections in Your Name: View and disconnect
| unauthorized numbers linked to your ID.
|
| 4. Verify Device Genuineness: Confirm if a phone (new or used)
| is authentic before purchase.
| papichulo2023 wrote:
| How does an app inspect other app's storage data (like
| whatsapp). I thought Android security model blocked that.
| Does it have root access?
| dotnet00 wrote:
| It probably just asks you to enter the associated WhatsApp
| number
| WhereIsTheTruth wrote:
| Sovereign tech stacks matter
|
| Without domestic silicon or OS, you're forced to mandate
| bloatware that users can see
|
| Real power operates at the silicon/firmware level, invisible,
| unremovable, and uncompromisable
|
| This is a cringe move from India
|
| https://www.centerforcybersecuritypolicy.org/insights-and-re...
| mk89 wrote:
| When the hell do we start to build these products here again like
| it was just 20 years ago? And let's stop with "it's too expensive
| here...". For God's sake, these are products we use every minute
| of our lives.
|
| Enough is enough...
| sharadov wrote:
| Indian government is big on pronouncements.
|
| It will be a garbage app that most likely will not work,
| considering the historical incompetence of the Indian
| government's expertise in all things tech.
|
| I am pretty certain Apple and Samsung will pay off someone in the
| government.
| lacy_tinpot wrote:
| Isn't one of the largest payment processors in the world made
| by the Indian Government?
|
| Personally I wouldn't risk my personal digital privacy on the
| incompetence of the government. I'd assume the opposite.
| aeyes wrote:
| Not really, UPI is developed and operated by several large
| banks.
|
| Maybe you were thinking about PIX in Brazil which is
| developed and operated by their central bank.
| chupchap wrote:
| I thought it was made by NPCI, which is owned by RBI, AND
| the IBA. It is ultimately a government organisation.
| lacy_tinpot wrote:
| No. UPI. It's an initiative by the Indian government.
|
| It's controlled by the RBI, just through a complex public-
| private corporate structure through NPCI.
|
| UPI is much larger and more international than PIX. It's
| currently processing iirc something like 200 billion
| transactions. UPI is also used in several countries, France
| being among the most recent examples.
|
| As such UPI has a broader scope than PIX and requires a
| public-private corporate structure with stakeholders from
| both sides.
|
| But this is off topic. The competence of the Indian
| government to at the very minimum partner with Industry
| shows that such software preloaded on phones is a threat to
| the civil liberties of people that the State shouldn't
| encroach on. This is a violation of individual privacy.
| ignoramous wrote:
| > _It will be a garbage app that most likely will not work,
| considering the historical incompetence of the Indian
| government 's expertise in all things tech._
|
| Wait until "they" outsource it (on the pretext of national
| security interests) to countries that have deep talent in
| cybersecurity (like the US/Israel/Russia/China).
|
| Ex: https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2025/06/11/india-orders-new-
| fig...
| SamuelAdams wrote:
| I wonder if this will cause a reduction in remote jobs for
| citizens. Compliance with US laws like HIPAA and FERPA have
| strict requirements regarding access. Many employees use 2FA on
| their personal devices, which if passed this law would interfere
| with.
| m3kw9 wrote:
| If the app requires an on device backdoor, Apple won't likely
| cave to it. If it's sandboxed, the amount of things it can do is
| limited to tracking user location, given Apple also disabled
| turning off location sharing
| nephihaha wrote:
| This is going to tie in with digital ID. Obviously the Indian
| government has never been corrupt or abusive.
| renewiltord wrote:
| These things are more a factor of aggregate risk handling. As an
| example, if you have tuberculosis it is possible even in the US
| for the country to mandate that a doctor watch you take the
| treatment. Totalitarian? Authoritarian? A tool that could be used
| to force someone to have to show up to where a state-controlled
| authority could confirm that they are? Yes, all of these things
| could be words you could assign to that.
|
| But societal combined risk is commonly handled in this way. In
| the US, if you employ someone you have to report that you paid
| them to a central federal government. Way to track someone?
| Surveillance state? All words you could use.
|
| And the government previously restricted gambling and so on. The
| question isn't "why would a bad government do these things?". The
| question is "would a benevolent government do these things?" and
| "if so, why?". And the answer is quite straightforward, I think:
|
| Someone in the government has observed that there is a great deal
| of cyber crime in India. A fairly uneducated population, with
| very high smart-phone penetration (85%+ apparently), and a large
| number of fraudulent actors that their federal government is
| unable to enforce against. So they're attempting to attack the
| problem where they can.
|
| This is ultimately India. They don't need insidious "app on your
| phone" / stingray / any other sophisticated solution. The local
| politicians can manipulate local authorities to get your cell
| tower association data and SMS. And if they want your comms
| devices they will rubber-hose the secrets out of you.
|
| Someone I know worked at a big FAANG. He's Indian so went back to
| Bangalore to see his ailing mother. One day he took an auto-
| rickshaw while wearing his FAANG sweatshirt. The driver took him
| to a makeshift jail where he, police officers, and a magistrate
| conspired to threaten the guy with prison unless he paid $10k.
| $10k is nothing to a FAANG engineer, so he paid up, was brought
| in front of court on some lesser charges and then had to pay a
| small fine (much less than $10k). And then he flew back to the
| West Coast and never returned to India. Trying to reason about
| this kind of place using the perspective of the West is
| meaningless.
|
| I think it unlikely they're trying to use this as cyber-
| surveillance. India simply does not have the infrastructure
| necessary to do that at scale. And they have the infrastructure
| for the rubber-hose, and Indians wear their identification on
| their sleeve, so to speak. Names point to ethnic groups and
| castes. Primarily endogamous marriage means if you want to
| perform violence against groups you can simply spread out from
| one member of the family unit being visibly of that group.
|
| Using an app to get access to someone's data there is sort of
| like using Heartbleed to get root on a machine on which you are
| in /etc/sudoers with NOPASSWD.
| marginalx wrote:
| All good goals - but this can be done by the government forcing
| the private companies (Apple/Goog/Samsung) to build tools,
| reporting, support services around helping with both Scamming
| applications or Stolen phones etc....
|
| This will keep the data out of governments hands, while pushing
| the cost burden to these companies and they would be better
| equipped to build around these goals than the government
| themselves.
|
| We all know the govt doesn't have a great track record with
| using Pegasus etc... Giving away control to apps that can
| decide your phone is stolen and lock it opens the door to any
| possibility including a totalitarian regime. It would be naive
| to believe that even if this is done with good intentions, such
| control could be easily mis used by opposition parties, one
| malicious individual etc...
| renewiltord wrote:
| I don't think the Indian government realistically has the
| ability to enforce on Apple/Google/Samsung like that.
| Regardless, even if they did, India has a diversity of (what
| we would probably consider) garbage smartphones. For anyone
| who lives in the West and is used to the kind of state
| legibility and control here, I think they'd find India quite
| surprising. The state has limited visibility and control
| there, simply because they never built a trustable
| bureaucratic network of data transmission.
|
| If you read the Internet, you will hear that India has strict
| controls on KYC for SIM cards and so on. But on my last trip
| there I acquired one without much fuss. I'm not sure how that
| happened but I didn't provide any ID! I suspect that in such
| an environment you can't really do the thing you're
| suggesting.
|
| The average mobile phone store there had an absolutely mind-
| blowing profusion of smartphone brands that all sound like
| those Amazon drop-shipped Chinese brands: Vivo, Poco, Realme,
| Oppo. And those are the good ones! There is a Cambrian-like
| explosion of brands there from various manufacturers. It's an
| unusual place.
| spoaceman7777 wrote:
| So, basically, this is just SIM card functionality for the age of
| eSIMs?
|
| A lot of people in this thread seem unaware of what SIM cards
| actually are and do.
| wosined wrote:
| Sounds so authoritarian. Luckily, in the UK you only have to scan
| your face and ID to access cat photos.
| ibejoeb wrote:
| It's all happening really quickly, so I haven't been able to
| keep up. I know Starmer said that digital ID will be mandatory
| to work in the UK. Did he mention how that would be
| implemented? Is the UK going to issue and official device to
| everyone in country, or are the people supposed to pay for it?
| What about homeless, poor, and the provisional residents?
| tintor wrote:
| Does it apply to iPhones manufactured to India, which are meant
| for export to other countries?
| nbsande wrote:
| > With more than 5 million downloads since its launch, the app
| has helped block more than 3.7 million stolen or lost mobile
| phones, while more than 30 million fraudulent connections have
| also been terminated.
|
| I might be reading this wrong but these numbers seem very weird.
| Did more than half the people who downloaded the app block a
| stolen phone? And did each person who downloaded the app
| terminate 6 fraudulent connections?
| SSLy wrote:
| > _And did each person who downloaded the app terminate 6
| fraudulent connections?_
|
| That much is believable, if not on the low side. Spam there is
| intense.
| HackerThemAll wrote:
| Soon in U.S.
|
| For the safety and security of children, of course.
| zkmon wrote:
| Does this mean visitors to India would also get this app
| installed on their phone as soon as they land in India?
| alwinaugustin wrote:
| Want to check number of SIMs in your name? Download Sanchar
| Saathi to check:Links to Play store and App Store. Department of
| Telecom
|
| I was getting these messages for sometime and installed it
| finally. It is the same app that is mentioned in the article. My
| phone is already in the system then.
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