[HN Gopher] Social anxiety isn't about being liked
___________________________________________________________________
Social anxiety isn't about being liked
Author : rohmanhakim
Score : 193 points
Date : 2025-10-03 14:51 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (chrislakin.blog)
(TXT) w3m dump (chrislakin.blog)
| ge96 wrote:
| I like that bit about optimizing for not going bankrupt vs.
| windfall
|
| Idk you hear these phrases all the time excelsior, shoot for the
| stars land in the moon, etc... gotta actually apply it
|
| Tangent about drugs I wish I felt like I did when on the snow all
| the time damn, what a great mindset like anything is possible,
| same with adhd meds but I can see how it would be bad too not
| having fear/self doubt eg. "I'm gonna jump off this building and
| land over there", over confidence
|
| Oh this was about 10 yrs ago I was partaking I'm not in that env
| anymore where I can easily source stuff, now it's just alochol
| cortesoft wrote:
| I hadn't heard the word countersignaling before, but it matches
| something I had observed many years ago.
|
| My closest groups of friends always make so much fun of each
| other. We make negative comments about the worst traits about
| each other, the things that we are most self-conscious about...
| yet every time my friends make fun of me for something I worry
| about, I actually feel better and more comfortable with myself.
|
| When I thought about why, I realized it's because of the hidden
| message behind the ridicule of my longtime friends; they are
| telling me, "we are keenly aware of the worst qualities about
| you, and we love you and want to spend time with you anyway."
|
| There is comfort in knowing you don't have to hide your flaws to
| be accepted and loved.
| dustincoates wrote:
| Not sure why this article didn't link to the original when
| citing it, but here's the link to the Scott Alexander blog:
| https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/23/friendship-is-counters...
|
| And a follow up:
| https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/09/friendship-is-still-co...
| drewda wrote:
| FWIW, this blog writer appears to only be cross-linking to
| his own posts. Perhaps good for his own SEO, but not as much
| for his readers...
| turtledragonfly wrote:
| This seems fairly culture-dependent, from my experience.
|
| For instance, I've noticed a distinct difference in how sarcasm
| is received in the Northeast US vs the West Coast. What you
| described feels more Northeast-y to me (I'm sure it varies by
| other segments and sub-sub-cultures, too).
|
| There's the saying: "If an Irish person calls you 'asshole,' it
| means they think you're a friend. If they call you 'friend' it
| means they think you're an asshole."
|
| Not just for the Irish though, I don't think (:
| bongodongobob wrote:
| Ha that's funny. I'm from the Midwest and found my
| dry/sarcastic humor tended to confuse people on the West
| Coast. A lot of people tended to take me completely seriously
| when I was obviously joking.
| jdonaldson wrote:
| I always chalked that up to being around people that were
| new to the country and hadn't yet wrapped their head around
| the latest fashionable American cynicism. Generally takes a
| few decades to kick in, but when it does it's usually worth
| the wait (see Kumail Ali Nanjiani).
| cortesoft wrote:
| Well, I have lived in California my whole life, and 90% of my
| friends are also native Californians, so i guess it isn't
| exclusively east coast.
| trinsic2 wrote:
| :) I also think this applies to Scotland and the UK. I love
| the irony that continent brings to the world.
| BurningFrog wrote:
| Perhaps this is controversial, but I think this is a mostly
| male way of expressing affection.
|
| Women observing this sometimes conclude that men are horribly
| cruel to each other.
| idontwantthis wrote:
| I think that's because when women do it, they are usually
| being intentionally cruel. Any woman will tell you how cruel
| teenage girls are to each other.
| brabel wrote:
| Only some kind of men behave like that. I had many friends
| growing up and we never did that sort of thing, and it always
| put me off to see people who did.
| starttoaster wrote:
| Why did it put you off? Did you not understand the
| intention behind the words, or were the words unforgiveable
| despite their intention?
| sophacles wrote:
| Not the person you asked, but I think it comes down to
| past experiences/family environment/etc. Theres poking
| fun at someone to signal "i like you anyway"... that is
| real. There's also people who cross the line with their
| words, and use "i was just joking" as an excuse to be
| cruel.
|
| If someone has experienced a lot of the later, it makes
| sense that they don't really trust the former.
| lelandbatey wrote:
| Not who you asked.
|
| With age Ive found myself much more comfortable with
| folks "being mean, but in a friendly way" as they intend
| it. When I was younger though, I never understood why
| folks didn't instead just "say the nice part." Like, if
| your friends are always glad you join them even if you're
| always late, making fun of you for being late with a big
| smile can still feel pretty bad for you. Much better to
| say "hey please don't be late" and also "we really enjoy
| you spending time with us."
|
| With age Ive come to see that for reasons I don't
| understand, lots of folks have a massive aversion to
| saying clearly the things they appreciate about the
| people around them directly. Eh, their loss.
| starttoaster wrote:
| I think there's a bit more to it than that. Being mean in
| a friendly way is sort of a sport, for some people
| finding a good quip is about the mental challenge of
| wordsmithing. It's easy, and not all that creative, to
| say "don't be late" and also with certain people can come
| across more negatively than just jokingly berating them,
| believe it or not. It sounds more serious. Something
| like, "glad you made it, Leland! We were just posting a
| GoFundMe to buy you a watch." Said in the right way with
| people you are very familiar with keeps a lighter tone,
| and less like I'm actually upset (even if I may be.) Not
| that I'd ever say something like that in a professional
| setting or to people I'm not actually strong friends
| with; those people just get a "glad you made it, Leland!"
|
| It's also sort of the same reason shows like It's Always
| Sunny in Philadelphia are funny. When you're jokingly
| mean to a friend, you're being a bit of a caricature, an
| exaggeration. That's part of the fun of it, too. And why
| it can get a point across while keeping it light.
| dfxm12 wrote:
| Not OP. It's not about the words or the intentions, it's
| about the fact that we can talk about anything in the
| world, do any activity together, and you want to do
| something I'm not comfortable with.
|
| That said, I understand relationships are about give and
| take. I couldn't be in a romantic relationship like this,
| but I'll indulge my friends or my cousins. I have a
| friend who engages in "countersignaling" often. Our
| connection is generally worth the uncomfortableness, but
| sometimes it is unbearable.
| dgb23 wrote:
| There are more women in my friends circle who do this than
| not.
| Trasmatta wrote:
| Yeah, I don't do this at all, and I don't like being
| friends with those that do
| WalterSear wrote:
| By definition, if you don't like to experience it; don't
| like to witness it, it's not 'ribbing': it's bullying.
| It's crucial that the person being ribbed is part of the
| joke, and should be obvious.
|
| It's very common for people to engage in the bullying,
| thinking that they are just ribbing; perhaps, never
| having experienced the safety that is required for
| ribbing.
| Trasmatta wrote:
| There's also the common experience of a bully who always
| retreats to the defense of "I'm just ribbing you, why are
| you so defensive?" anytime they're challenged. Making the
| victim feel like they're the problem.
| cortesoft wrote:
| This is the case for so many things, though. Some people
| try to be funny but aren't. Some people think they know
| how to drive safely but can't. Some people think they are
| great programmers but aren't.
|
| This doesn't mean that there aren't funny people, or safe
| drivers, or great programmers. It also doesn't mean that
| it's impossible to KNOW you are funny, safe, or great at
| something.
|
| It is a bit of a paradox, though, that right and wrong
| people can be equally certain.
| bunderbunder wrote:
| If you cause a car wreck, you failed at driving. It
| doesn't _necessarily_ make you a bad driver in and of
| itself - everybody makes mistakes - but if you also
| refuse to acknowledge and own your error then that
| certainly suggests a lack of competence.
|
| If you ship code that blows up in production, you failed
| at programming. It doesn't _necessarily_ make you a bad
| programmer in and of itself - everybody makes mistakes -
| but if you also refuse to acknowledge and own your error
| then that certainly suggests a lack of competence.
|
| If you tell a joke that lands disastrously, you failed at
| comedy. It doesn't _necessarily_ make you a bad comedian
| in and of itself - everybody makes mistakes - but if you
| also refuse to acknowledge and own your error then that
| certainly suggests a lack of competence.
|
| I still don't understand why, for many people, that last
| point is so much harder to understand than the first two.
| cortesoft wrote:
| I have many friends who I don't do this with, because I
| know they don't like it and it doesn't work with them. I
| show my friendship to them by understanding the type of
| person they are and knowing that friendly ribbing is not
| for them.
|
| Would you mind being friends with someone like me? Or do
| you feel like engaging in that behavior at all, even if
| not directed at you, is enough to make you not want to be
| friends with them?
| Trasmatta wrote:
| I would gladly be friends with someone like you!
| Glawen wrote:
| Same goes for how men are comforting each other by
| acknowledging flaws/mistakes/situation to try to help move
| on. Which is very different on how women comfort each other.
| stronglikedan wrote:
| Likely because women do it too, but they aren't joking.
| epiccoleman wrote:
| I wish I could find the original source on this, but I
| remember reading a tweet or blog that I thought had a really
| good metaphor for this kind of "male friend ribbing."
|
| The metaphor went something like this: men making fun of each
| other are actuall y showing that they understand their
| friends deeply, because they know how to stab without hitting
| an organ.
|
| That is - in order to make fun of someone without actually
| hurting them, you have to know which kinds of topics not to
| touch for any given friend. You skip the "your mom" joke for
| the friend with parent issues, and so on.
|
| On the other hand, though, I have _very_ often see my fellow
| enginerd types badly misread this dynamic. I 've seen guys
| come onto an established team where some mutual teasing has
| evolved, then fall flat when they try to emulate that it -
| because they haven't yet earned the depth of relationship
| that makes it OK.
|
| It kind of reminds me of another "nerd social fallacy" I've
| often observed, which I guess I'd name: "I can't be a bully."
| I think a lot of times people who've grown up _dealing_ with
| bullying don 't realize when they've _become_ one. Sometimes
| the mutual teasing degrades into one guy just being a dick to
| the other.
| bunderbunder wrote:
| Reminds me of Scalzi's Law: the failure mode of 'clever' is
| 'asshole'.
| goopypoop wrote:
| I was shown around one job by Dave The Cunt. He was alright
| blueflow wrote:
| I know both kinds of people, men, women and kids. Its a thing
| that is nurtured across generations and different for each
| family and not that much gender-specific.
| hdseggbj wrote:
| There's a fine line between teasing, which can build up a
| person, and degradation designed to destroy self esteem. It's
| also easy to dismiss that degradation as "I'm just teasing.
| You're too sensitive. "
| dkarl wrote:
| It's two different kinds of logic. The stereotypically male
| way makes sense to me: you take the weapons that could be
| used against someone and make them harmless. If you're fat,
| your friends call you fat, and you're like, hey, they know
| I'm fat, it's established that I'm fat, and they're my
| friends anyway! Being fat is fine! It takes all the fear out
| of it.
|
| In my perception, the stereotypically female way is, if
| you're fat, nobody calls you fat. They're careful using the
| word around you. They might even tell you you're _not_ fat.
| To me, that makes it seem like the friendship depends on the
| obvious lie that you 're not fat, which makes it seem
| inevitable that it's going to end. One day they're going to
| make some acknowledgment of the evident truth that you're
| fat, and that's your signal that they're done with you and
| the friendship is over. To me, it feels like the truth is
| being kept in reserve for the day when they're going to shank
| you with it.
|
| That's my (male) perspective. I'd rather have friends who
| acknowledge the truth about me and make me feel okay about it
| than friends who act like the truth about me isn't compatible
| with friendship and inclusion.
|
| On an intellectual level, I get the (stereotypically) female
| perspective, too -- I get that it doesn't seem friendly to
| constantly remind someone of their shortcomings, and that a
| friend group should give someone an escape from oppressive
| social perceptions. But that doesn't resonate with me as much
| emotionally.
| BurningFrog wrote:
| "Men bond by saying nasty things they don't mean. Women
| bond by saying nice things they don't mean."
|
| I think there is _some_ truth to this old saying. If so, it
| would make sense that both sides find the way of the other
| side a bit off-putting.
| dkarl wrote:
| Eh... if you're fat, and your friends call you fat, they
| mean it. You're fat.
|
| They just don't mean for it to _hurt,_ and that 's the
| wholesome part. Every time they call you fat, they're
| showing you that it's okay with them that you're fat.
|
| If you're fat, and your friends tell you you're _not_
| fat, then to me that implies that the truth is too awful
| to say, but for your sake they 'll pretend you're a
| different person. Which to me seems like it really
| underscores that it's not actually okay to be the way you
| are.
| nuancebydefault wrote:
| Recently a lady was telling me that she wasn't taken
| seriously. When a male colleague proposed something that
| she proposed years ago, people suddenly accepted it, she
| said. I explained her about 'implicit pecking order' in
| company culture and 'he is taller'. Then she said "yeah
| i'm short". Then I said yes but you are perfect the way
| you are, and I think she appreciated that.
| kiba wrote:
| Interesting.
|
| I don't think it's OK or fine to be fat. It's a health
| risk. But I also don't think that "fat shaming" is OK
| either.
| nuancebydefault wrote:
| I haven't looked at this topic this way, but now this
| really does make sense! I remember a lady asking me once
| how tall I am. I'm rather tall and in fact I don't like
| being asked that, since it is obvious that I am tall and
| the actual number does not matter. I responded with my
| height and immediately asked: what is your weight? Wrong
| question. In my male brain it was an equal kind of
| question. In the female brain totally not.
| kulahan wrote:
| Probably because it's a completely unrelated question.
| Height and weight are only similar in that they're both
| descriptors of something physical. That's... pretty much
| it. Height is basically immutable. More of it is not bad.
| Less of it is not bad. It's not particularly reflective
| of lifestyle outside of simply not being malnourished.
| It's just... there.
|
| Weight, obviously, is nothing like this. It absolutely
| comes off like you're trying to be snarky.
| em-bee wrote:
| she was trying to calcute your BMI ;-)
|
| but yeah, that's a conversation i would have with my
| doctor, not an acquaintance.
| socalgal2 wrote:
| It's a stereotype that women are directly mean to other women
| more than men are mean to other men. No idea if there is any
| data to back that up, only that it's a commonly repeated
| meme.
|
| https://www.google.com/search?q=women+are+just+horribly+crue.
| ..
|
| There's also culture at play. I don't know if men
| affectionately dissing their friends is universal but there's
| plenty of related things like:
|
| In Japanese culture you don't brag about co-workers or family
| to outsiders. Outsiders you treat with respect. Insiders you
| don't. The fact that you don't get the more polite treatment
| is proof that you're an insider. It's a common scene in
| stories where someone asks to stop being treated like an
| outsider by specifically asking for the less polite language.
| You can also watch the ribbing man to man, man to woman,
| woman to man, woman to woman. I don't know if there is data
| on which is more common.
| daseiner1 wrote:
| the stereotype is also that when men don't like each other
| they'll just get into a fight once and move on whereas when
| women don't like each other they'll tear each other down in
| extended social and psychological campaigns
| raffael_de wrote:
| It's also women ... here's the proof:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xS9Y_mjTjc
| astral_drama wrote:
| I don't find it very gendered, my sister and I used to do
| this often, like young wolf pups, we'd jostle and play for
| the upper hand.
|
| I have women friends who will play like this with me. It can
| reveal insights that neither of us were clear on without the
| other bringing it to light.
|
| Of course it can be one sided too, and it turns into
| bullying. I think context matters and even if you're being
| bullied, it's still revealing if you are able to see beyond
| the emotion. You're not your looks, your body, your mind,
| your bank account, your friend group, etc... Your worth is
| beyond these things. I hope you find that someday!
| criddell wrote:
| > it can be one sided too, and it turns into bullying
|
| That's pretty insightful. I've had some friends I would
| tease and some I would never tease. People are different
| and relationships change over time. There's no one way to
| be with everybody all the time.
| MangoToupe wrote:
| It can certainly be a barrier to male-male relationships if
| you didn't grow up around this behavior.
| trinsic2 wrote:
| This is a great observation. The concept from article was a eye
| opener. I always wondered why we give each other shit.
| rockercoaster wrote:
| The book _Impro_ treats extensively of what it calls "status
| games", in the context of building believable, natural scenes
| of dialog for the stage (or other dramatic purposes) and as a
| framework for making improvisation interesting.
|
| The author muses that the situation of feeling safe playing
| status games with another person--that is, treating them only
| as games, not as _serious_ and with real status in play--is
| perhaps _the_ definition of what friendship is.
|
| This could include trading barbs, taking turns playing the
| bully and the victim, trading playing "high" and "low" roles,
| jokey one-upsmanship, that kind of thing. Stuff you don't do
| with non-friends because there's too much risk of being taken
| seriously, and too much risk of losing _actual_ status or of
| hurting someone else 's status for-real when you didn't intend
| to.
| ratelimitsteve wrote:
| Can I float an adjacent idea? It collapses the anxiety by
| simply forcing the thing your anxious about to be over. I've
| definitely had the experience you're describing where someone
| likes me despite something I'm insecure about. I've also had
| the experience where someone dislikes me precisely because of
| something I'm insecure about and tells me as much to my face.
| Both are better than not knowing.
| xivzgrev wrote:
| That's astute. I was always uncomfortable with this kind of
| joking. I felt threatened. The real reason was that I didn't
| have a good comeback.
|
| Let's say my nose was large, and a friend jokes about it. I
| need to say something back. And I could not think of anything.
| A low stakes situation becomes higher stakes than it needs to
| be.
|
| So on their side they see me struggle and probably feel bad, so
| they don't do it again. But then we are just friends not best
| friends.
|
| Curious how did you learn / practice this?
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| > _And I could not think of anything._
|
| I've identified two approaches to this situation. One is to
| take the insult graciously, as though it's feedback:
|
| "Careful: you could put someone's eye out with that!"
|
| "Oh! Thanks for the reminder." (adjust the position of your
| head, as appropriate for your extremely large and dangerous
| nose)
|
| ---
|
| The other is to take whatever they said, and exaggerate it.
| This produces _really_ good comebacks. (It 's important to
| insist upon this point, regardless of any evidence you might
| receive to the contrary.)
|
| "Careful: you could put someone's eye out with that!"
|
| "Oh, could I? Well, your entire _face_ is bad. "
|
| If they respond with another insult, repeat the same
| strategy. They'll notice what you're doing after the second
| or third attempt, and then it will turn from "this person's
| bad at comebacks" into "this person's (pretending to be) bad
| at comebacks _and it 's funny_".
|
| "My face is bad? Is that the best you could come up with?"
|
| "Your face is so bad that it makes everyone else's faces bad,
| too."
|
| "But... that means your face is also bad."
|
| "And whose fault is that? It's your fault. Specifically, the
| fault of your face. Which is bad."
|
| "Still means you've got a big nose."
|
| "Well _you 've_ got a _small_ nose. "
|
| "No I don't. We've got the same sized noses."
|
| "Thus invalidating your previous aspersion that my nose is
| unusually large. Who's bad at comebacks _now_? "
|
| "Still you."
|
| ---
|
| There's a third approach, if the insult is disguised as faux-
| concern: pretend you're taking it seriously, while
| exaggerating the characteristic they're concerned about.
|
| "Hey, you having trouble seeing past that, mate?"
|
| "Oh, no, it's alright: most of my vision is unobstructed." /
| "I've got some tape in my bag if I need it." / "It's no worse
| than binoculars."
| boogieknite wrote:
| the jerk store called
| bluecheese452 wrote:
| Another strategy is to tell them to fuck off.
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| dpark's caveat
| (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45467182) applies
| here as well: there's a _big_ difference between "fuck
| off" and "fuck off", and someone inexperienced in such
| conversations probably won't hit the right tone.
| (Especially if they've just come out of "oh no I can't
| think of a comeback" and are a bit stressed.)
| dpark wrote:
| > Oh, could I? Well, your entire face is bad." > If they
| respond with another insult
|
| I seriously doubt they will. "Your entire face is bad"
| sounds like lashing out from a place of hurt. Typical
| response would probably be a confused or disgusted look
| followed by a change of topic.
|
| There are not a lot of people who could pull this kind of
| response off without coming off extremely weird or like
| assholes. And none of the people who could pull this off
| successfully are asking for comeback advice on Hacker News.
| Yiin wrote:
| just say it with big ass grin on your face, problem
| solved
| dpark wrote:
| Yeah but also no. This feels a like bit like "just be
| charismatic". Someone asking how to respond to this sort
| of playful insult is unlikely to pull this off in any
| natural way.
|
| I would think a better response for someone who does not
| know how to naturally respond to these sorts of playful
| insults would be to just absorb it goodnaturedly. "Haha,
| yep. I get this big nose from my dad." Instead of
| continuing banter that is awkward, end it in a friendly
| way and move on.
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| > _"Your entire face is bad" sounds like lashing out from
| a place of hurt._
|
| Childlore isn't well documented online, but in my part of
| the world, "your face" was the orphan-friendly equivalent
| of "your mom". It is well-understood to be an extremely
| bad comeback in the circles I frequent: I've not known
| anyone to misunderstand it. Your mileage may, of course,
| vary.
| dpark wrote:
| Maybe I'm just old and out of touch.
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| No, it's the children who are wrong.
| lonelypoaster wrote:
| > "Oh, could I? Well, your entire face is bad."
|
| This gave me quite a chuckle. Reads like a comeback from
| GPT-2 =P
|
| A proper comeback in this scenario perverts the
| characteristic into a positive trait, with some added
| denigration.
|
| "That's what lets me keep a wide berth from your mom, I can
| smell her a mile away".
| boogieknite wrote:
| when i dont have a comeback i simply say, "oh no ive been
| owned" or something similar. the toxic male environment
| social equivalent of brushing yourself off and standing back
| up. lets them get whatever they needed from the exchange but
| also signals theyre not going to get a big reaction from you
| if they happen to be 100% bully
| goopypoop wrote:
| ur ma
| cortesoft wrote:
| I don't know if I have a clear answer to how I learned and
| practiced this. Probably a lot of simple exposure and
| observation. The important thing is the friendship comes
| first; I never make an insult joke to someone I don't know
| well. I build a friendship first, then test out the waters
| with small jokes.
|
| I also always start and focus on myself; I make jokes at my
| own expense often. A big part of my personality is a strange
| juxtaposition of bravado and self deprecation. I will joke
| about how amazing I am and how much of a failure I am at the
| same time.
|
| It seems to work? I think people like me, generally? I don't
| know man, I just wing it! I have no idea what I am doing, but
| I am also pretty great at not knowing what I am doing.
| lokimedes wrote:
| That may be an interpretation. Another is that many have
| difficulty regulating their feelings, and "venting" the
| discomfort in this semi-controlled manner is a socially
| acceptable release because it invites others to do the same to
| you, and you all minimize the risk of catastrophic attacks
| under tension.
| inanutshellus wrote:
| It's a game that allies play in order to prepare for enemies.
|
| When played with allies, it connects you to each other and lets
| you put your guard down (which is perverse to those that don't
| get it).
|
| The same game played with an enemy teaches you to deflect
| rather than internalize bad-faith insults and teaches you to
| use wit and words to stand up for yourself, keeping your
| dignity without violence.
|
| ...
|
| Also it's a demonstration of equality.
|
| e.g. you can't play the game with your boss or your son, but
| you can play it with your brother and your peers.
| throw7 wrote:
| True. Back in the day, the mates and I would greet each other
| by saying, "Hey, fuck you." Then, "No, fuck you.". You can
| kinda guess it eventually ping pongs louder and funnier. We
| kind of had to stop when other innocent people would pop in and
| ask if everything is "ok".
| self_awareness wrote:
| My friend group from my school did the same thing, but I've
| always hated this pattern. Because of exactly this behavior,
| after finishing school I've decided to intentionally drop some
| contacts.
|
| Maybe I've interpreted it as "I'm better than you, because
| you're doing X. I'm mentioning this over and over again,
| because it makes me feel better."
| YouWhy wrote:
| I find merit with the core point as well the delivery.
|
| I wish it was more commonly accepted that choosing not to act is
| effectively a stand against one's own value system in favor of
| the value systems of those who do act.
| ambicapter wrote:
| It annoys me greatly when people say "I didn't choose [elected
| official] because I didn't vote at all".
| isk517 wrote:
| As a person with social anxiety and a fear of being disliked I
| get to be the person that people love to talk about how much they
| hate all of the people that don't fear being disliked and all of
| the ways they are getting either getting screwed by other people
| or are being screwed by other people. We really deserve the
| society we live in
| NAHWheatCracker wrote:
| That first sentence is hard to grok.
| Etheryte wrote:
| No kidding, I read your comment first and then wondered how
| bad could it be. Turns out the whole comment is nearly that
| one sentence. Sentences are like functions, sometimes you
| need a really long one, but oftentimes they work better in
| reasonable chunks.
| card_zero wrote:
| Should be "to talk to", I think. Missing a "to". But has an
| extra "getting".
| pryelluw wrote:
| Astounding irony.
| guerrilla wrote:
| This rings true to me as someone who's overcome most of his
| social anxiety over the last few years. The last graph is
| particularly correct. It's about being authentic and being okay
| with people not liking you. This is especially useful in dating
| because then you stop being needy (which is unattractive) when
| you can let go of the outcome and just show someone who you are
| and if they reject you then you simply realize that they aren't
| the person you were looking for because you were looking for
| someone who likes you for who you are.
|
| Is the person who wrote the post qualified to say this though?
| Like are these statements the result of scientific research or
| just his opinion like my opinion?
| aDyslecticCrow wrote:
| It's a opinion piece. But so are must attempted explanations of
| emotions. How would you even study this?
|
| It seems some in the comments resonate and some disagree. So
| its somewhat useful.
|
| One thing i feel missing is the anxiety part of social anxiety.
| The way the brain colors vague or unclear external (social)
| signals in default negative ways, in a feedback loop.
|
| Not avoiding being disliked or seeking being liked, but simply
| being unable to quantity it correctly.
| guerrilla wrote:
| Fair enough but I still don't understand this person's
| relationship to the subject and why they are so vague about
| what they do and what their qualifications are on all of
| their social media.
| dmesg wrote:
| Quote:
|
| > Why else would someone be so anxious about how others see them?
|
| The scientific consensus would tell the author that judgement in
| humans happens already the moment they see a person and it is
| immediate, even if the person not doing anything:
|
| https://www.nature.com/articles/srep40700
|
| >across three studies, we find that first impressions [...] made
| from thin slices of real-world social behavior by typically-
| developing observers are not only far less favorable across a
| range of trait judgments compared to controls
|
| Edit:
|
| Okay this was completely misunderstood. My point was that the
| "normal" people in the study immediately internally know if to
| like or not like a person. Hence why first impressions DO matter
| the most. Which is why I simply disagree with the argument in the
| OP that anyone has control over their perception.
|
| You also cannot win people over if the most respected person in a
| group dislikes you. The others will follow boot.
| layer8 wrote:
| I don't think the article is about autism.
| dmesg wrote:
| Curious, yet the most people suffering from anxiety as
| secondary comorbid psychiatric condition are the depressed,
| autistic and ADHD sufferers.
|
| The article is definitely a mental health topic. A little
| harmless stage fright before a presentation is not real
| clinical generalized anxiety and affects most normal people.
| nemomarx wrote:
| You can be diagnosed with GAD or social anxiety disorders
| without being autistic. The comorbidity isn't total.
|
| I think there's a good question about whether people can
| tell you're anxious at a glance but worrying about that
| will make your anxiety much more visible.
| dmesg wrote:
| > I think there's a good question about whether people
| can tell you're anxious at a glance
|
| Which is why I linked the nature article? It's plain
| obvious an interesting point I tried to make that
| "normal" people will instantly perceive someone as
| likeable or unlikeable. Which the article in the OP goes
| great lengths to discuss.
|
| I mean I can live with people immediately going against
| my point, I just see they didn't even gave it 5 minutes
| of thought. Which is not necessarily directed at you, I
| cannot possibly convince anyone and reply to anyone at
| the same time.
| layer8 wrote:
| Social anxiety is significantly more prevalent in the
| general population than autism. So sure, the article may
| be less applicable to people with autism, who have other
| visible symptoms besides what comes from "mere" social
| anxiety.
| erikerikson wrote:
| This study seems to look at a different dynamic than seems
| under discussion in the article.
| dmesg wrote:
| The article describes how neurotypical people, i.e. the
| average Joe would come up with a decision to like or not like
| a person based on first impressions before the person being
| judged even talks. Fairly sure in an article about how people
| are thinking how they are perceived by others this is
| relevant. But I get it can upset people that it is out of
| their control entirely.
| erikerikson wrote:
| I disagree. I think the article is about the motivations of
| people with social anxiety. I'd agree it makes assumptions
| and paints with a broad brush but it feels relevant to some
| of the socially anxious people I know.
| dmesg wrote:
| I edited and rephrased a lot of my posts and the other
| replies and maybe my though process is clearer now. I
| didn't word it all too well, forgive me for not being a
| native, I struggled to bring my point across in an
| enunciated way.
| erikerikson wrote:
| Thank you for the improvements, I think it does read
| better now. Thank you for making the effort to converse
| in a second language.
|
| I still think you are making a point that feels
| orthogonal to the article. The author presents (supported
| by public expressions of the opinion) that some people
| believe social anxiety is based on wanting to be liked.
| While to that point your study indicating that autistic
| people may be at a disadvantage on the getting people to
| like them front, the author is then rejecting that
| proposition (i.e. that the socially anxious are actually
| concerned about avoiding dislike). I suppose your point
| can be understood relevant there too, in that for the
| autistic population, the baseline "disliked" level is
| higher. However, the article remains about the internal
| focus of those with social anxiety (whether it over
| generalizes or not) between "liked" and "not disliked"
| which seems orthogonal to any baseline "likability"
| considerations for one or any other sub-population.
|
| [edit: s/"liked" level is lower/"disliked" level is
| higher/ for higher congruence with context]
| ryandrake wrote:
| Off topic, but my eye twitched at the word "agentic." This word
| has infested every computing and software discussion as a
| buzzword, to the point where I am having a visceral reaction just
| seeing it. Even though it's used appropriately here, I have to
| admit I retched a little while reading. So tired of hearing
| "agentic."
| stronglikedan wrote:
| I can dig it. I'm constantly and annoyingly replaying every
| social interaction in my head for days, and even longer when
| they're (in my perception) bad. Why would I want to go out, if I
| might subject myself to more of that? (I do go out and continue
| to subject myself to that, but nowhere near as frequently as my
| more social friends.)
| Rumudiez wrote:
| I do this too. I've been led to believe it's a symptom of OCD,
| which I absolutely express in other ways
| elevatortrim wrote:
| I have social anxiety and it is completely unrelated to
| likeableness.
|
| I do not think people would not like me, I do not try to avoid
| people disliking me, that's not the point at all. Quite the
| opposite, I'm sure I'm an interesting person and I'm confident
| people would like me if I could take the step.
|
| Problem is, there is something that physically prevents me from
| saying "Hi!" to a stranger. I literally cannot get myself to take
| a step towards them and I can't explain why that is, because I do
| not understand it myself.
|
| Also quite interestingly (to me), this completely goes away under
| certain circumstances: (1) If I take around 2-3 units of alcohol
| and it is not a totally alien environment (it would not help if I
| was in a bar alone with complete strangers). (2) If more than
| about 70% of people in the room are people I know well. Then I do
| not feel anxious about approaching the remaining 30%.
| thewebguyd wrote:
| I have the same exact experience as you. It's like some weird
| physical barrier, but I can't really articulate the feeling or
| explain it. The exposure therapy method here doesn't work
| because "just do it a bunch of times and you'll get more
| comfortable" isn't even possible for me, I can't "just do it."
|
| For me though, it takes more than a few beers to be comfortable
| approaching someone. I'd have to be completely sloshed and even
| then it's a struggle.
|
| The only time I didn't experience the seemingly physical
| barrier was in college when a friend convinced me to try MDMA
| and we went out. I became almost the exact opposite of who I am
| with the social anxiety. I was the most extraverted, outgoing
| person in our group quite literally chatting up anyone and
| everyone that I crossed paths with without any care or
| inhibition around it.
|
| No other pharmaceutical has been able to cure it for me like
| that, and it's a bit depressing because I liked that version of
| myself and I'd like to be able to be that person again without
| an incredibly dangerous illegal substance.
| quesera wrote:
| Make your own decisions of course, but make sure you are
| fully educated about the risks of MDMA. It is not generally
| considered to be a dangerous substance. It is illegal though,
| and moderation is always prudent.
| dgb23 wrote:
| Alcohol reduces fear.
| bobsmooth wrote:
| If it wasn't for booze I'd have no friends.
| balamatom wrote:
| And school produces fear.
| tutanosh wrote:
| You have the fear of being judged; the antidote is realizing
| that most people barely notice you, it just feels like they do
| because you're self-conscious around new people.
| sigotirandolas wrote:
| I assume it can be different for everyone. This post resonates
| with me, but my social anxiety mixes being sensitive to
| negative feedback and low self-esteem.
|
| So, you want to avoid both being disliked, but also being liked
| - because this puts you in novel situations you fear lead to an
| even bigger failure down the road.
| nexus2045 wrote:
| Mine is similar to this. In addition the anxiety comes from me
| thinking that most interactions are banal and more about
| "trading good vibes and energy" with the other person rather
| than a genuine deep conversation, and I fear that my facial
| expressions will reflect what I'm really feeling inside - "ugh
| can we transition off talking about my weekend or the
| weather?". And also because I'm not that witty without alcohol,
| but it's almost like most of western small talk is based off of
| exchanging humor and wit, then laughing very loudly at the
| punchline. So my anxiety is more to do with not performing well
| enough to have this stereotypical exchange done smoothly.
| sixo wrote:
| I find it helpful to think of that physical barrier as your own
| emotions barring you from entering a state where the
| uncertainty as to whether you'll be safe grows too high to
| trust yourself to operate in real time.
|
| The problem isn't really being liked or not being liked, the
| problem is the cognitive overload of trying to predict what
| will happen and respond to it in realtime, which is sure to set
| in when one's mental model of the potential interaction is very
| uncertain. Of course, if your brain quits in a conversation,
| the other person is not going to be very impressed with you, so
| this kind of failure carries social risk itself.
|
| The way to fix this is to have as many interactions which _are_
| bearable as possible so as to build out the mind 's mental
| model of itself and others in social situations. Gradually the
| danger just fades away. There's no substitute for firsthand
| experience; no amount of premeditating, ruminating, or brooding
| will fix this.
| Sparkle-san wrote:
| > The problem isn't really being liked or not being liked,
| the problem is the cognitive overload of trying to predict
| what will happen and respond to it in realtime, which is sure
| to set in when one's mental model of the potential
| interaction is very uncertain.
|
| I think is a big piece. I have social anxiety and I have a
| tendency not to answer with what I'm thinking but what I
| think they want to hear because it's more predictable. This
| gets amplified tenfold in interviews. In an interview, I know
| that they're looking for a specific answer when they ask a
| question, but also that the answer differs from interviewer
| to interviewer. It's like there's this sub-process that is
| constantly running trying to figure out what to say, but in
| some situations it ends up locking up the system because it's
| using too many resources due to the constraints.
| nico wrote:
| This is not a full solution, but it really helped me; the book
| The Charisma Myth
|
| Every chapter has exercises that help deal with social anxiety
|
| Even doing just the 3 basic recommendations in the intro can be
| very impactful
| mountainriver wrote:
| 100% agree. I used to think there was some cognitive loop I
| could will my way out of. Then I did Keto and all the sudden it
| was gone.
|
| Keto does a lot to the neurotransmitters in the brain and it
| clearly balances out things for me and I feel no social anxiety
| at all.
|
| I'm sure cognitive tricks work for some people. They mostly had
| the opposite effect on me in the long term. I would encourage
| people to not buy into it too much
| aryonoco wrote:
| Have you got any links to any peer reviewed papers discussing
| this about Keto?
| jm__87 wrote:
| Maybe it's just me but this seems pretty normal? I don't see
| myself as having social anxiety, but I am probably more
| reserved than what you described.
| brad0 wrote:
| I've been reading through the book The Courage to be Disliked
| recently. I'm not a big fan of the writing style of the book, but
| some of the ideas in the book appear in this post too.
|
| One of the concepts in the book is being comfortable with being
| disliked. If instead you're trying to avoid being disliked,
| you're effectively subject to other people's whims.
|
| When you look at it from that perspective, that's a pretty
| stressful experience!
| ChrisLakin wrote:
| > I'm not a big fan of the writing style of the book
|
| OP here. I address that in How I'd rewrite The Courage to be
| Disliked: https://chrislakin.blog/courage
| Etheryte wrote:
| I can't help but feel that these criticisms, like many others
| of the book, are mostly down to cultural misunderstanding.
| The writing style of the book is deeply Japanese and that's
| off-putting for many, myself included. But for some, it's to
| the point where the forest is missed for the trees. I've read
| a few translations of it and some do a better job at
| conveying the idea than others, but they all feel clunky
| without the cultural context.
|
| A good example of what I mean is your first suggestion,
| choosing a less triggering explanation for teleology. The
| idea of trigger words as we understand them, and the need to
| shield people from them, is not a universal cultural
| phenomenon. The suggestion feels a bit like visiting a
| country where they drive on the left side of the road and
| suggesting they try and drive on the right instead. Maybe the
| suggestion is good! But maybe not, without cultural context,
| the suggestion reads mostly like just asking for things to be
| made more familiar to you.
| immibis wrote:
| IDK, in my experience not avoiding being disliked only results
| in a lot of people disliking me, but hasn't brought any gains,
| unless a rate limit on HN is a gain (they say I'm "too
| ideological", whatever that means)
| ranger_danger wrote:
| Since you brought it up, I will put in my 2 cents, and I will
| try to articulate it in a constructive way, not meant as an
| attack at all.
|
| Fair warning, I'm American and I realize you are European,
| and there are obvious cultural differences that may be at
| play.
|
| The main problem I have with you is the attitude. Very black-
| and-white thinking, as if you seemingly just know everything,
| about everything, which I don't think can be true for anybody
| really.
|
| I think it makes you actually appear _less_ intelligent,
| although it is obvious that you are intelligent, but it makes
| people think things like "pshh what does _this_ guy know,
| acting like he wrote the book on this subject ". But lower
| intelligence people are masters of black-and-white thinking,
| and see constructive feedback as criticism, unable to use it
| to improve themselves, which I don't think you want to be
| seen as.
|
| Of course, there are people who criticize because they're
| haters and get a kick out of it. Despite their hatred, their
| criticism may still be valid.
|
| But most of your comments IMO just seem to be very matter-of-
| fact, often seemingly blind to important context/nuances that
| make the answer not really as simple as you make it sound.
| And when people ask for sources, you often do not respond. I
| don't think I've ever seen you admit you were wrong either.
|
| In fact this is the biggest problem I have with people in
| general (not just you), this kind of dogmatism, the black and
| white thinking. To me it shows a lack of empathy and
| humility, often those people are also very quick to anger,
| and I think it shows a lack of critical thinking, as if you
| somehow have all the answers and are infallible, that there
| can be no other possible valid perspectives or opinions, I
| think this is a rampant problem on IRC/the Internet and
| indeed life in general.
|
| I also notice that a _lot_ of your comments get downvoted,
| which I assume may be a combination of both unpopular
| opinions (or that they are stated in a way people disagree
| with), and just haters that will always downvote certain
| people.
|
| All that being said, I realize I'm not perfect either, and I
| have absolutely fallen trap to all these same things and
| more, and for anyone who I have wronged by it, I apologize.
| abxyz wrote:
| The problem with using clinical phrases to describe normal
| behavior is demonstrated in this post. "Social anxiety" has a
| specific clinical meaning that is not covered by this post. The
| post is actually discussing a very natural and rational
| nervousness that normal people have in social situations. The
| post is providing a way of thinking about that nervousness that
| can help reduce it, for the nervous person's benefit, and it's
| great if that works, but it's not addressing social anxiety.
|
| Social anxiety is a condition that cannot be thought away, you
| cannot rationalize social anxiety nor can it be represented as a
| cost/benefit analysis of risk of being disliked vs. reward of
| being liked. You can feel socially anxious without having social
| anxiety. You can be depressed without having depression. You will
| be depressed after your beloved pet dies. You will be socially
| anxious walking into a room full of people you haven't met
| before.
| ants_everywhere wrote:
| I agree with you as a general rule. But this is actually pretty
| close to how Social Anxiety is defined. It's about the fear of
| being negatively evaluated or embarrassed.
|
| For example the DSM definition
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK519712/table/ch3.t12/ or
| the Mayo Clinic explainer page
| https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/social-
| anxiet....
|
| I think what this blog post is getting at is describing for
| people the difference between fear of negative evaluation and
| positive desire to be liked.
|
| One thing the post misses is that sometimes these are learned
| behaviors that come from a lifetime of experience being
| disliked for no obvious reason. For example, sometimes outgoing
| autistic children develop social anxiety after their peers
| reject them repeatedly.
| ge96 wrote:
| > Social anxiety is a condition that cannot be thought away
|
| I hope not, I don't want to be hooked on some prescription meds
| eg. what about exposure therapy
|
| I do wonder if being nervous to talk to a hot girl is the same
| as social anxiety I mean I'm not the jock/main attention guy
| either but I can talk to strangers (guys or not attractive
| women)
| gjgtcbkj wrote:
| Except it's not. It can be thought away, under enough pressure
| people can do extraordinary things. There is just no such
| pressure in society now. I've suffered immensely in my life,
| and if you describe your condition as "anxiety" you simply
| aren't suffering enough for treatment to have any real impact.
|
| If you think you're suffering rises to the medical treatable
| level please develop a more serious condition before getting on
| a waitlist. All doctors are taken up on your non-physical
| problems and you don't immediately need care like I do.
| rhcom2 wrote:
| > You will be depressed after your beloved pet dies.
|
| You'll experience *grief* after a pet dies. We've pathologizing
| grief to a point that it makes it harder for those experiencing
| both grief and depression, two separate (but sometimes linked)
| human conditions.
|
| https://undark.org/2022/07/21/the-hidden-dangers-of-patholog...
| tomhowsalterego wrote:
| He (and it's a he, of course) says this on a forum full of
| people who have convinced themselves they're neurodivergent.
|
| inb4 we live in a society etc
| dec0dedab0de wrote:
| _You can feel socially anxious without having social anxiety._
|
| That is not true in plain English, just because a particular
| profession decides to use words one way, does not mean the
| definitions change for the rest of us.
| nico wrote:
| > just because a particular profession decides to use words
| one way, does not mean the definitions change for the rest of
| us
|
| This is a particular pain in physics, which has taken very
| commonly used words and given them a very narrowly defined
| meaning, within a strict framework - like the words Energy or
| Work
| jives wrote:
| Exactly right. And you might waste years of your life trying to
| "fix" social anxiety by attempting to change your mindset or
| trying to adopt new social practices. (Speaking from
| experience.)
| stldev wrote:
| "The post is ... not addressing social anxiety."
|
| Exactly this. The article conflates normal social nervousness
| with an actual disorder, then provides a reframe that may help
| with nervousness (?) but completely misunderstands the clinical
| condition.
| stared wrote:
| There are various types of insecurity.
|
| A book "How to attract women through honesty" by Mark Manson (I
| think the only book in dating genre I recommend without some
| caveats, and recommend regardless on one's gender or orientation)
| has a lot about insecurity vs security (or: neediness vs non-
| neediness).
|
| There was one passage that although most insecure people are in
| this "I don't want be hated" or "let anyone like/love me", there
| are also some people that are obsessed with everyone liking them.
| It has some different symptoms, but also stems from insecurity.
|
| I guess you know friends (or maybe you are one yourself) who play
| too hard to be liked by _everyone_. Also, there is an interesting
| case of super-popular people, who are super-needy, even though at
| the first glance they don 't look so. What's is characteristic,
| though, it is that everything starts to fall apart when they lose
| their spotlight. (Think about actors or musicians who, after they
| are no longer as popular as they used to be, drown in depression
| and drugs.)
| rw_panic0_0 wrote:
| different ppl get different reasons for social anxiety bro. it's
| not tech you can't just say that mental problem Y is 100% because
| of X
| strenholme wrote:
| As friends of mine who I consider popular have suggested to me
| "don't give a fuck what people think about you", and this blog
| says that in a much longer form.
|
| As someone who was extensively bullied as a kid, including with
| physical violence, my social anxiety went through the roof and it
| has taken me a long time and awareness of my trauma to heal from
| those wounds to the point I no longer have social anxiety.
|
| The world is sadly full of miserable cruel people who want to put
| me down so they can no longer have to deal with their own
| feelings of inferiority. I have made friends who truly love me
| for who I am, who give me space to talk, who do not constantly
| put me down in cruel ways (yes, I once had "friends" like that),
| and who truly care about my feelings, but it has taken a lot of
| work to get there. I can now sniff out someone who is starting to
| engage in bullying behavior, and block them from being in my
| life.
| rexpop wrote:
| > being socially anxious tends to make you less likeable
|
| Citation needed.
| flax wrote:
| Neither "wanting to be liked" or "wanting to avoid being
| disliked" rings true to me, at least as applied to my own social
| anxiety. I want to avoid being thought of at all. The idea of
| being liked is just as anxiety-producing as being disliked.
| Possibly more so. Every relationship with another person,
| positive or negative, is another cognitive burden to maintain. I
| would vastly prefer most of my interactions to just remain at the
| default/stranger level where I can re-use the same anticipatory
| model for most people I deal with.
|
| Tangentially related, I have for some time had a desire to write
| short stories, but the anxiety around revealing anything that
| might expose my inner self is probably the biggest reason why I
| don't.
|
| I was reading a collection of short stories yesterday and came
| upon Michael Swanwick's "Slow Life". It struck me that it shares
| more than a few similarities to his "The Very Pulse of the
| Machine": Woman astronaut on a moon in the outer solar system is
| placed in lethal danger, encounters alien intelligence that
| communicates by reading/influencing minds, she isn't sure whether
| the communication is genuine or hallucinated, eventually the
| alien intelligence provides a long-shot resolution to save her.
| Maybe Swanwick just had another story to tell with some of the
| same beats. It happens. Or maybe it's like bare feet in a
| Tarantino movie. The point is, the idea of someone examining my
| own stories and thinking such thoughts about me is extremely
| distressing. It's not being disliked that I try to avoid. I'm
| trying to avoid the baseline stress of social interaction.
|
| I recognize the irony of opening up about this in writing. If you
| have something to say _about me_, please don't.
| sixo wrote:
| The weird thing about "The idea of being liked is just as
| anxiety-producing as being disliked" is that it is an incorrect
| prediction of reality: actually _being_ liked would. Thinking
| about it is really a different thing: it overestimates the
| stakes involved, it mistakenly invents "ideas of people" to do
| the liking which do not behave like actual people, and is
| unable to build any self-esteem by imagining people liking you
| because these imagined people are under your our control; being
| liked by your own imagined people doesn't "count" the way being
| liked by real people would...
|
| The human mind is not really designed to handle under-
| socialization well, and seems to fill in the empty space with
| imaginary figures which fail to meet its social needs. Taken
| outside its natural tribal operating regime, it bugs out in all
| kinds of strange ways.
|
| > the idea of someone examining my own stories and thinking
| such thoughts about me is extremely distressing
|
| This is a very familiar feeling to me, and in my experience it
| actually is a fear of being disliked, or more specifically
| about not being able to control others' reactions to me. But
| the fear is so great and unapproachable that the mind cordons
| it "out of sight" of conscious feeling.
|
| It becomes better to not be thought of than to expose myself to
| the possibility of others seeing me poorly, especially if I'm
| not able to defend myself and make the case for my being seen
| with grace. I suspect that it is over-exposure to human
| meanness and judgement and under-exposure to kindness and grace
| which brings about this expectation of others' dispositions
| towards oneself; this perhaps is the reason for the Christian
| injunction that humans not judge one another--it guards against
| this particular failure mode of the social mind.
| balamatom wrote:
| I really hope it doesn't make you too uncomfortable for me to
| say: amen to that.
|
| That's it. Leaving you in peace now. Peace!
| quesera wrote:
| This might be therapeutic for you:
|
| The vast majority of people who interact with you in any way,
| think about you _extremely little or not at all_ beyond the
| moment of interaction.
|
| We just don't play nearly as big a role in other peoples' lives
| as we sometimes imagine.
|
| It's the observant and introspective people among us who
| believe otherwise. Most people are neither.
| JumpinJack_Cash wrote:
| Social anxiety has to be correlated with deepness, aka the more
| shallow a person is the less social anxiety they present.
|
| Also some fixation with a person/ small group of people in
| particular and trying to win them over. The less socially anxious
| people cast a big net and that will cause people who'd like them
| and dislike them but the net is so big that they simply stick
| with those who like them.
| codersfocus wrote:
| The reason you feel that way is because social anxiety
| correlates with anhedonia. The person doesn't engage in
| playfulness which is the basis of social connection across
| mammals. Because they aren't playful, you perceive this as
| "deepness."
|
| This cognitive fallacy connecting deepness / seriousness to
| substance, and connecting playfulness to triviality and
| frivolity has unfortunately affected me (I remember arguing it
| in high school English class!)
|
| Consciously adopting a "playful" attitude fixes my social
| anxiety, and adds charisma and humor to my character.
| JumpinJack_Cash wrote:
| I have never seen a place more playful than a roulette or a
| craps table in Vegas, people high five each other, they form
| groups they trash the casino when the bank wins... but it is
| very shallow and not very deep, it lasts a couple of hours
| and then each of the participant go separate ways.
| quesera wrote:
| I think this is deceptive. Superficial interactions _seem_ less
| anxious, but they are not necessarily representative of what 's
| going on inside the minds of the participants.
|
| Learning to be superficial in superficial situations is a good
| way to fake your way through social anxiety. It isn't
| necessarily rewarding in itself, but it does smooth over some
| otherwise awkward scenarios.
|
| Maintaining the balance is critical, and an important aspect of
| social maturity.
|
| (It's a waste of time, yes! But being comfortable with a little
| bit of social inefficiency is essential to casual interactions
| which often have beneficial repercussions.)
| seemaze wrote:
| >There's this popular idea that socially anxious folks are just
| dying to be liked
|
| Really? I've never come across that idea. If fact, in my
| experience 'social anxiety' is almost always driven by the fear
| of failure, not the ambition of uncertain success.
|
| I would counter that the opposite of 'social anxiety' - 'social
| vanity' - is more indicative of a deep desire to be liked.
| keernan wrote:
| I've struggled with social anxiety for years. Just yesterday I
| discovered that I am unable to visualize mental images such as
| faces (aphantasia).
|
| I have always struggled in social settings where I people will be
| attending whom I've met on multiple but infrequent prior
| occasions - and I will recognize that I know them from somewhere
| but will be unable to place them or their name.
|
| This has happened for 40 years when I see my wife's cousins at
| funerals every 2-3 years (but otherwise never see them). They are
| so friendly and nice. Smiling and hugging me. But they have to
| realize that I am never able to use their name because I can't
| remember it - nor am I able to make inquiries about work or life
| because I remember nothing about them.
|
| The same happens when I, as a middle manager, travel for multiple
| day business trips to the home office.
|
| It is incredibly embarrassing which causes me to avoid such
| settings which in turn makes me seem aloof and unfriendly.
| quesera wrote:
| Some people who struggle with this maintain a "personal CRM"
| system.
|
| Write down some names and notes about people. Re-read them when
| you're traveling to a place where you're likely to encounter
| them. Just writing the notes might be enough to solidify the
| memories for you, but re-reading surely will.
|
| Salespeople do this to feign familiarity, and it's artificial.
| Don't do that. People you see every few years will not expect
| you to remember their kids' names or birthdays.
|
| Specifics are often too intimate. But starting with their
| names, and building on with the simulation of a general memory
| or two (e.g. "are you still doing a lot of traveling for
| work?") are fine.
| bananalychee wrote:
| I think the premise, backed up by a couple of random tweets, is
| questionable, but glossing over that, the conclusion is more or
| less "just be yourself and you'll have more success". Maybe. But
| I feel like it's pinning social anxiety purely on neurotic
| safety-seeking behavior, which is superficial. Surely generalized
| social anxiety is an unhealthy over-correction, but some
| personality types have inherently more success socially than
| others, or in blunt terms, some people are more likeable than
| others. If you're socially compatible with 90% of the population,
| it's not hard to ignore the 10% you don't meld with, but swap the
| numbers and the negative feedback will be overwhelming and makes
| the majority of social interactions anxiety-inducing. I guess
| that's why the anonymous Internet is full of disagreeable people.
| shitter wrote:
| This is part of it, but everyone to some degree has discomfort
| with being disliked and will do things to avoid it. At least in
| my experience, social anxiety is much more about the cognitive
| distortions that convince you others dislike you, when they may
| in fact be neutral or even have a positive view of you.
|
| Just as one example, when I'm interacting with someone who I
| haven't reached a certain level of comfortability with, I'm
| highly aware of and sensitive to their reactions to me in terms
| of what they're saying, their tone, their micro facial
| expressions, etc., and I perceive any small negative reaction as
| a sign that they don't like me. This usually isn't true! But it
| ironically has the effect of inducing self-sabotaging avoidant
| behaviors in me, such as over-censoring of what I say and just
| general awkwardness around them, which makes it much more likely
| they will end up disliking me.
| bambax wrote:
| Social anxiety is what happens when the effort to appear
| acceptable to polite society feels overwhelming -- and pointless
| at the same time.
| zkmon wrote:
| A person's existence is made up of what others think about the
| person and how the person relates to them. There is hardly
| anything else to make up the existence for the person. You are
| just a collection of perceptions about you, and your relations
| with the world. Even your money and assets are only as a valuable
| as seen by the world around you. You look trendy and stylish only
| because you align with the trends of the place and time. Your
| physical fitness is meaningful only at your place and time. A
| village woman in a third world can outlive many gym goers of the
| Western world.
|
| There is nothing else left to be considered as your absolute
| existence outside of how you relate with the world.
| poemxo wrote:
| As someone with apparent social anxiety, I don't really care
| about being disliked either. Being left alone is the overriding
| priority by far, it is not an aversion to being disliked,
| although being disliked is not the best since it's still
| attention.
|
| If someone came to me and tried to mentor me about unlearning my
| discomfort with being disliked, I would feel like I'm being
| manipulated and I would make sure to avoid that person.
| mock-possum wrote:
| Yeah same here. I like people, I like me - what I don't like is
| the expectation that I essentially perform improv for others
| when I don't want to. The problem is being observed, and
| expected to perform. It feels bad. Being left alone, with no
| risk of social interaction, feels _really really good_. It's a
| literal relief from the constant energy expenditure that is
| acting out socializing.
|
| I'd prefer to avoid being disliked - or at any rate, disliked
| without good reason - but as you say, that's mostly because
| then I'd be wasting even more of my time managing interactions
| with (or more likely avoiding interactions with) those who
| dislike me. My god what a waste of energy, how I abhor it.
| CooCooCaCha wrote:
| I've never been good at banter so this speaks to me.
|
| But it's interesting to think that when people like you, they
| tend to want more from you and that leads to social
| obligations. And you can either go along with these social
| obligations or decline and come off as rude.
|
| So in a sense, social connections give people some amount of
| control over your life and that can feel restricting and
| draining sometimes.
|
| Even something as simple as a text message can be thought of
| as a task that someone gave you without your consent. And if
| you don't respond within a certain time window then you're
| rude and risk damaging the relationship. Or if you respond
| poorly that can damage it as well.
|
| Sometimes I wonder if this is social anxiety or just being
| extra aware of the realities of life.
| guluarte wrote:
| social anxiety i think it is more the fear of breaking your own
| perception of yourself
| AtlasBarfed wrote:
| It's a flight instinct, it's due to danger. Isn't that obvious?
|
| Gangs of humans are dangerous if you don't know them,
| historically. Murderously dangerous. Hobbes is right, society is
| a thin veneer.
| nfw2 wrote:
| "Social anxiety is more about the fear of being disliked than the
| desire to be liked" is a better way to summarize the gist of the
| article than the actual title. And the claim put this way seems
| pretty obvious.
| stldev wrote:
| Anyone who has had to contend with social anxiety should be
| insulted reading this.
|
| Author is trying to frame social anxiety as "rational risk
| aversion"; it's not. Social anxiety isn't a strategy-- it's your
| brain misfiring and treating normal social interactions as more
| serious threats. It's not about being liked. It's not about being
| disliked. At all. Reframing avoidance as "successfully avoiding
| dislike" just repackages the dysfunction with a motivational
| poster.
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