[HN Gopher] Cognizant found guilty of discriminating against non...
___________________________________________________________________
Cognizant found guilty of discriminating against non-Indian
employees
Author : Melchizedek
Score : 371 points
Date : 2024-10-09 07:05 UTC (15 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.siliconvalley.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.siliconvalley.com)
| gnabgib wrote:
| Also (18 points, 1 day ago)
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41774300
| throwawayian wrote:
| Seeing this happen at an originally Australian unicorn after the
| technical co-founder stepped down and new CTO swapped out all of
| their engineering leadership with Indian hires from Microsoft.
|
| Previously saw it at a lesser degree to older unicorns and places
| like Oracle, IBM, etc.
|
| Although it's normalised in the latter ones.
| eastbound wrote:
| Which explains why its market value is hovering at $160 while
| its former worth, when it was properly managed, was $3-400. Am
| I spot on?
|
| The problem is that every Fortune 500's internal systems are
| hooked up to it.
| logicchains wrote:
| Atlassian? As a user, I haven't noticed any decline in
| quality; it's just as painful to use now as it was a decade
| ago.
| eastbound wrote:
| It's also probably 5x more expensive than a decade ago. As
| you said, still painful to use.
| ActionHank wrote:
| Maybe cheaper labour brings hidden expenses.
| f1shy wrote:
| You can ask Boeing ;)
|
| Joking, I do not think it is the case, BUT I do know that
| cheap is often more expensive
| wordofx wrote:
| You can't notice decline in quality when the quality is
| already so bad that any change feels like an improvement
| while still being bad.
| aleph_minus_one wrote:
| > You can't notice decline in quality when the quality is
| already so bad that any change feels like an improvement
| while still being bad.
|
| In this case we don't have a _decline_ in quality.
| physicsguy wrote:
| A decade ago, you could self-host though.
| throw49sjwo1 wrote:
| Nobody (important) wanted that, though. It was done only
| because the cloud wasn't available, the moment it became
| available every big company migrated.
| dx034 wrote:
| Not true. I've been at several companies that self host
| Jira. With the amount of critical data and processes in
| Jira, it can be comforting to have it on-prem with no one
| else being able to access the server.
| throw49sjwo1 wrote:
| Are you sure they're not just "preparing for the
| migration" and plan to stay on premise? I also worked at
| many places that had it on premise - all of them planned
| to migrate ASAP (where asap is sometimes years).
| physicsguy wrote:
| The rise of self-hosted GitLab and GHES suggests that's
| not true.
| dicknuckle wrote:
| Migrated from self hosted Atlassian to cloud Atlassian.
| throw49sjwo1 wrote:
| Rise? I don't see anything other than migration to cloud.
| jcims wrote:
| I've never seen or worked with a company using the cloud
| version of any of their products. I worked at a place
| with one of the largest bitbucket installs in the world,
| so they weren't little shops.
| p_l wrote:
| Self-hosting JIRA and Confluence was a double edged
| sword:
|
| Done badly it meant you suffocated the application server
| with too little resources giving dreaded "super slow
| JIRA" effect.
|
| Done well it meant you didn't have to deal with Atlassian
| underprovisioning resources in the cloud or having rigid
| maintenance times that didn't fit with your company
| needs.
| quadrifoliate wrote:
| This. Every single Atlassian product I have used has
| _always_ been painfully slow garbage; and I have been
| forced to use them at various jobs over a decade.
|
| I don't think it was ever a magically good Australian
| product that Indian hires from Microsoft suddenly ruined.
| PedroBatista wrote:
| This is unfortunately a widespread practice even in less tech
| heavy companies. It starts with a very aggressive C suit or
| manager responding to everything 24/7, supported by "cheap"
| labor who say yes to everything and promise the World, usually
| extra complicated. Fast forward a couple years and the
| company/project is a expensive hell-hole of disfunction and
| suffering. CEOs and the board also are to blame for this, they
| are aware, they just don't care as they like people who say yes
| and don't give them any bad news.
| bbor wrote:
| ...are we complaining about people living in India, or
| American/Australian citizens that have Indian national
| heritage? The former seems more like an outsourcing issue than
| an Indian issue. The latter... didn't we learn in the 90s not
| to stereotype people?
|
| If I posted a comment complaining about how black Americans are
| criminals, I think I'd rightfully be called out for
| oversimplifying in a hurtful way. What am I missing here?
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| I've been at a number of companies that had a significant
| Indian workforce, often hired through the likes of Infosys and
| the like. I don't believe that's down to nepotism or whatever
| though, but simple market forces: "you need two dozen SAP
| experts and can't find them locally? We have them".
|
| That said, there's frequently islands of Indian and "the other"
| developers, in part that'll be cultural, but in part it's down
| to simply having a different job, expertise, department, etc.
| varun_chopra wrote:
| Is anyone really surprised?
|
| At the risk of sounding racist (though I'm Indian, so I guess I
| get some leeway here), there are likely more biases at play than
| it seems.
|
| You'll see South or North Indians from a particular state prefer
| hiring employees from the same state, who speak the same
| language, and who look like them. And it doesn't stop there.
| Caste discrimination plays a role too, and it even has its own
| Wiki page:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_discrimination_in_the_Un....
| See also:
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalit
|
| [2] https://harpercollinsin.medium.com/how-does-anyone-know-
| what...
|
| This kind of thing is so rampant in India that you hear about it
| all the time on Reddit.
|
| So yeah, Cognizant has been found guilty against non-Indians but
| they probably do this to other Indians.
| lazide wrote:
| The beauty of casteism, and religious discrimination (and less
| so racism/sexism, though it is _certainly possible_ ) is the
| near fractal nature of the ability to discriminate against
| someone. After all, there are 3000 'main' castes and 25,000
| sub-castes.
| [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India], and
| with religious discrimination you can always go into
| sectarianism/what guru to follow.
|
| It's the discrimination version of the world's largest choose
| your own adventure book.
| orlp wrote:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3fAcxcxoZ8
| tourmalinetaco wrote:
| The fractal nature of it is truly remarkable. When you zoom
| out, you see what was essentially one people split along
| religious borders with India and Pakistan. Zoom in, and you
| see finer and finer levels of cultural discrimination.
| lazide wrote:
| Yup. One of the most fundamental parts of the human
| experience is that _everything is relative_.
|
| So, when someone wants to feel better, or even objectively
| have it better, the easiest way to do it is to make sure
| there is someone else having it worse nearby.
|
| And doing that all the time based off fuzzy, changeable
| things like _merit_ is a lot of work. Or even worse,
| something that someone has to do all the time or maintain,
| like _results_ or _wealth_.
|
| Both for the downtrodden trying to improve their station,
| and the ones 'on top' trying to keep them down.
|
| Much more stable to systematize it, and use things like
| permanent labels on entire family lines, eh? And bonus
| points if you can do it in a fine grained enough way, that
| essentially _everyone_ has someone lower than them to shit
| on.
|
| Then all anyone has to do is exist, and push the buttons
| provided for them. Easy peasy.
| red-iron-pine wrote:
| > The fractal nature of it is truly remarkable. When you
| zoom out, you see what was essentially one people split
| along religious borders with India and Pakistan. Zoom in,
| and you see finer and finer levels of cultural
| discrimination.
|
| In-group, Out-group Theory at play
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-group_and_out-group
| dartharva wrote:
| All discrimination is contextual and local. The number of
| groups has nothing to do with it.
| lazide wrote:
| So you say, but history has shown that if groups don't
| exist to allow easy discrimination, they will be created to
| allow such discrimination.
|
| So it's a good sign of long, well established, and
| ingrained discrimination, eh? With associated
| infrastructure to make it easier to continue, and 'fairer'
| in that it allows almost everyone to have someone under
| them to take their own angst out on. (Except those 'outside
| the system' anyway, which historically were the Dalits, but
| now even they are in the system eh?)
| dartharva wrote:
| > So you say, but history has shown that if groups don't
| exist to allow easy discrimination, they will be created
| to allow such discrimination.
|
| Yes, that's what I am saying. In- and out-groups are made
| contextually in each unique situation.
|
| > So it's a good sign of long, well established, and
| ingrained discrimination, eh? With associated
| infrastructure to make it easier to continue, and
| 'fairer' in that it allows almost everyone to have
| someone under them to take their own angst out on.
| (Except those 'outside the system' anyway, which
| historically were the Dalits, but now even they are in
| the system eh?)
|
| Can't understand what you're trying to say here.
| lazide wrote:
| Can't understand, or refuse to understand?
|
| Why create new groups when you have proven and well trod
| ones handy to choose from?
| TrapLord_Rhodo wrote:
| your thoughts seem to align closely with Rene Girard's
| theories on mimetic desire and scapegoating.
| seper8 wrote:
| [flagged]
| sidcool wrote:
| It's the same as saying all whites are racist. Both are wrong.
| Rinzler89 wrote:
| [flagged]
| axus wrote:
| I'm American and we're infamous for lots of things.
| Rinzler89 wrote:
| [flagged]
| worthless-trash wrote:
| There are only four things (US) do better than anyone
| else: music, movies, microcode (software), and high-speed
| pizza delivery.
|
| - Neal Stephenson
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| And most of those are being challenged... except maybe
| high-speed pizza delivery.
| febusravenga wrote:
| Reading this piece right now. better late than never!
| Rinzler89 wrote:
| _> (US) do better than anyone else: music, movies_
|
| That was true till 10-20 years ago or so when we had
| things like the Matrix and Lord of the Rings, but most of
| the modern entertainment content coming out of the US
| right now is not only low quality predictable slop but
| also filled with US-centric political messaging, identity
| politics and virtue signaling that nobody else outside
| the US identifies with or wants to pay for. Taht why so
| many bomb.
| actionfromafar wrote:
| Some people say it to mean that. But another perspective is
| that there can be racist structures which do not sit in any
| one individual. So you can be personally non-racist but
| somewhat trapped in such structures. If you go against the
| grain, you can risk life-and-limb (hey, Godwin!) or in a less
| extreme setting, socially ostracized.
| f1shy wrote:
| >> that there can be racist structures which do not sit in
| any one individual. So you can be personally non-racist
|
| This is exactly what I understand under "racist culture",
| certainly not "all indians are racist"
| f1shy wrote:
| I do not understand "... is in culture X" same as "all X are
| ..."
| iinnPP wrote:
| There's a not insignificant group of people who go out of
| their way to avoid their culture. So no, they are not the
| same.
| AmericanChopper wrote:
| To say that some quality is embedded in a culture isn't even
| close to the same as saying all people originating from that
| culture possess that quality. The extent to which India's
| (racist) caste system is embedded in its culture is hardly up
| for serious debate, the influence it has in India has
| basically been proven by science at this point.
|
| > https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/01/the-caste-system-
| has...
|
| A hypothetical claim that all Indians are racist would
| clearly be absurd, but it's hardly surprising to find a group
| of Indians practicing something that is openly part of their
| native culture.
| Molitor5901 wrote:
| I don't think everyone is racist but I do believe that
| everyone has strong tribal preference. In my opinion, people
| feel most comfortable around those who are most like them.
| This is why you can look at any food market, friend group,
| etc. and see so few groups of people of mixed cultures. It's
| very natural. Racism is when you discriminate against another
| race/culture, even if it's just "he speaks my language, I can
| understand him better.."
| bravetraveler wrote:
| As a casual observer, their culture seems to include
| considerable classism; to the degree that _' where are you
| from?'_ appears to be an extremely common _and_ loaded question
| _[saved for the locals]_. I only recognize it because it exists
| in mine, not a judgement.
| redrove wrote:
| That exists in the EU as well, although certainly not to the
| same extent.
|
| If you've never felt it, that just means you're from the
| countries that look down on other european countries :)
| Dalewyn wrote:
| Classism exists basically everywhere. The most obvious
| example is the country bumpkin, he's gonna have a hard time
| impressing a metropolitan.
| redrove wrote:
| I'm not talking about classism (or racism), but about
| xenophobia.
| krageon wrote:
| What do you think the difference is between those?
| rand846633 wrote:
| Interesting projection. Do I understand you correctly, you
| know that other countries look down on you because you
| think they do?
| DebtDeflation wrote:
| Don't tiptoe around the topic. By class you mean caste. As a
| white guy who has worked in tech for 25+ years and has made
| many Indian friends, I continue to be astounded by how
| fixated many (obviously not all) of them are on caste. In
| particular, how much time and effort gets spent trying to
| suss out each others' caste by asking questions like you
| noted. Every time we get a new Indian team member and the
| existing ones start asking him where his parents are from and
| I see him start to uncomfortably evade answering while all of
| the other non_Indians in the room have no idea what is
| happening, it starts to make ME feel uncomfortable.
| bravetraveler wrote:
| Can't tiptoe around words I don't know :P I did say _'
| casual observer'!_ Thank you for sharing, reading to do.
| Seems related to my frustrations as a low-born but now
| well-made American.
|
| _edit:_ I say _' seems'_ here lightly; a system is
| conveniently reinforced by depriving participants words and
| the ability _(or even desire)_ to identify. Time and time
| again the gut feeling is a well-established thing.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| I hope that the caste system is on its way out though,
| although for that to really happen there need to be long-
| term societal reforms, just like with classism in e.g.
| Europe. Especially in the UK, working/middle/upper class is
| still very much a thing.
| throwawayha wrote:
| Caste is a disease for sure. Divides people for the benefit
| of dividers and the few..
| dartharva wrote:
| And as an Indian who has lived for 25+ years in India, I
| continue to be astounded by how fixated white guys like you
| are on caste when I have never once witnessed caste-based
| discrimination in my life, despite belonging to a
| categorized "originally backward" caste.
| throwawayha wrote:
| Indian society can be pervaded by a grotesque shadow practice
| of caste which still exists today.
|
| And it's been used in the US by Indians who practice caste-
| centric Hinduism who feel they are at a certain step of the
| caste ladder to those below them, or non-Hindus.
|
| https://www.google.com/search?q=silicon+valley+caste+system
| suyash wrote:
| not a cultural reason, it's financial, they wanted to pay less
| to Americans.
| avip wrote:
| Racism is embedded in human nature and in every culture. Though
| it takes different forms. I don't think "Indians" deserve any
| special mention on that one.
| hnbad wrote:
| It's telling that we're quick to ascribe anything bad to
| "human nature" while balking at the notion that anything
| positive might also be human nature. Greed and exploitation?
| Yes, absolutely, human nature, nothing you can do about it.
| Racism? Totally human nature, just look at this random animal
| species. Cooperation, trust, hospitality? No, those must be
| unique virtues expressed only by the pure of heart or the
| naive, just think of the wolves.
|
| Nevermind that "race" as a concept did not exist in the
| modern sense in Western cultures prior to colonization
| despite the exposure to other peoples with other skin tones
| from other parts of the world. Nevermind that cooperation and
| aiding the weak and forming alliances has been the only thing
| keeping us alive as naked, defenseless animals that need to
| sustain our young for years before they can carry their
| weight, feed themselves, let alone fend for themselves.
| rexreed wrote:
| Before there was race there were tribes. Which goes back to
| the very roots of humanity.
| krageon wrote:
| With respect, it can be hard to see the nuance in this if
| you're from the US (a country that is so racist even the
| government openly practices it, but sanctimonious enough
| to pretend it is instead free).
| throwaway48476 wrote:
| There were also species, denisovans, Neanderthals etc.
| fakedang wrote:
| > Nevermind that "race" as a concept did not exist in the
| modern sense in Western cultures prior to colonization
| despite the exposure to other peoples with other skin tones
| from other parts of the world.
|
| https://x.com/MohabMo5102/status/1494070281731809281?mx=2
|
| Also someone please tell me why were harems in Mamlukian
| and Ottoman courts largely filled with Slavic and
| Circassian men and women?
| beo5 wrote:
| Can I say then - what a surprise a blanket racist statement.
| And to add comments by others on how superior their culture is.
| Must be a American/European.
| portaouflop wrote:
| Racism is embedded in every culture to some extent. As always
| it depends on the details.
| dang wrote:
| Please don't start hellwars on HN. It's not what this site is
| for, and destroys what it is for.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| usrname wrote:
| Damm Microsoft its crazy company
| yieldcrv wrote:
| Everyone on Blind says this all day, and thats basically an
| Indian social network
| mindentropy wrote:
| I am seeing the flight to low cost countries now termed as "Best"
| cost countries is afoot in Europe. Germany has shot itself in the
| foot by destroying its energy sector. Now that the energy prices
| have shot through the roof most of the industries are going to
| get outsourced. The thirst for cheap labour and where the laws
| especially labour laws are lax is a wet dream for management.
| Lutzb wrote:
| Hm, the available data does not support your point/sentiment
| that energy prices are increasing for industrial customers in
| Germany. (see https://www.bdew.de/service/daten-und-
| grafiken/bdew-strompre... or
| https://www.statista.com/statistics/1050448/industrial-
| elect...)
|
| From https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/industry-electricity-
| pr...
|
| > Economist and economy ministry advisor Jens Sudekum called
| the analysis's results "astonishing." Commenting on social
| media platform X, Sudekum pointed out that industry prices had
| fallen "significantly" and that price indicators continued to
| point downwards. The trend would be similar for private
| households, albeit at a slower pace, he argued. Once current
| contracts expire, Sudekum said lower prices should become
| widespread in new ones. "Overall, the BDEW figures don't chime
| with current mood in debates, which is that everything is going
| down the drain due to high energy prices," he argued.
| hnbad wrote:
| FWIW there was a huge surge in energy costs following the war
| in Ukraine (due to the reduction in supply of Russian gas)
| which was dampened by the government with a subsidized price
| cap at 0.40EUR/kWh - for consumers anyway, as far as I'm
| aware there were different subsidies for industry.
|
| But consumer prices have largely stabilized at a range of
| 0.25EUR - 0.35EUR although you'll also find some prices
| listed as low as 0.20EUR or less if you are willing to price
| hop a lot.
|
| Apparently there will also be price cuts in the North and
| East of Germany as well as Bavaria in the near future but I
| don't know the specifics of that.
| jansan wrote:
| > FWIW there was a huge surge in energy costs following the
| war in Ukraine (due to the reduction in supply of Russian
| gas)
|
| And due to the fact that they decided to shut down the last
| nuclear power plants directly after that, which further
| reduced supply and until today I consider this one of the
| most stupid political decisions ever made.
| Lutzb wrote:
| I think the 4.1 percent that nuclear was providing was
| not having the impact you are assuming. Also the amount
| of energy produced by natural gas and renewables more
| than offset the cost of nuclear.
|
| https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-
| energy-c...
| jansan wrote:
| Well, electricity consumption has fallen quite a bit, because
| energy intensive industries (like chemical industry) already
| left the country. Energy prices are still high (not as high
| as 2022) and they would probably be much higher if those
| industries were still there.
|
| Unfortunately there is little reason to invest in Germany at
| the moment. It will get worse(they are already announcing an
| increase in health insurance rates) before it will get
| better.
| Lutzb wrote:
| Do you have any numbers regarding companies that have left
| Germany because of energy costs?
| jansan wrote:
| No, but news are everywhere if you open your eyes.
|
| https://www.handelsblatt.com/unternehmen/industrie/basf-
| chem...
|
| https://www.electrive.net/2023/05/23/volkswagen-streicht-
| woh...
|
| https://www.chemietechnik.de/markt/lanxess-spart-und-
| schlies...
| oefrha wrote:
| Source article is here:
| https://www.mercurynews.com/2024/10/07/h-1b-visa-company-sup...
|
| Paywall workaround: https://archive.is/PiMNU
|
| Another non-paywall article on the same topic:
| https://insider.govtech.com/california/news/jury-finds-discr...
|
| It's about the (previously) Indian outsourcing firm and H-1B body
| shop supplying contractors to SV companies. It's unrelated to the
| Indian manager only hiring Indians phenomenon which many people
| here are discussing; FWIW I believe it was quite widespread at
| least back when I was in the Valley, but this ruling doesn't
| address that in any way.
| wslh wrote:
| Discrimination and biases are part of everyday life, whether we
| like it or not. This is an observation, not an endorsement.
| Ignoring them is akin to denying human nature or believing that
| the logical mind can fully control the entirety of our thinking.
| This is why there are a few academic papers that explore this
| often-taboo topic. I recommend reading Cultural Biases in
| Economic Exchange? [1] where there is a table of trust between
| different European countries.
|
| [1]
| https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/faculty/sapienza/htm/cu...
| HKH2 wrote:
| Sorry, nowadays we're supposed to believe everything is
| programmable/reprogrammable.
| dartharva wrote:
| Discrimination has largely been "reprogrammable" though. E.g.
| America doesn't have segregation anymore.
| wslh wrote:
| I don't think so. It's astonishing that segregation laws in
| America ended in the mid-1960s, just a few years before
| Apollo 11 landed on the Moon. Other countries, including
| some with fewer economic resources, abolished segregation
| much earlier. Although formal segregation laws are gone,
| racism in America persists, as reflected in ongoing
| disparities and public perceptions [1].
|
| [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-
| reads/2023/08/25/americans...
| JohnBrookz wrote:
| This happened at intel and was very noticeable even back in 2010.
| Indians hires other Indians. At every company I've been at if you
| were not Indian you were not invited to the conversation. Sitting
| in meetings where you were excluded from 30% of the conversation
| was wild. I never felt like they were rude or anything though-
| just that I was an outsider.
|
| Best team I worked with was very diverse and they actively worked
| to help each other get promoted and protect each other.
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| I worked at a company with a large multi-ethnic workforce. They
| had an Indian subsidiary but didn't play the H1B game. The rule
| was English only in the office to avoid exclusion.
| hggigg wrote:
| Same experience here.
|
| On a positive note I got replaced by a guy in India. Then after
| a year of them clambering over each other's corpses for
| promotion and destroying the org from the inside, I got hired
| back on contract to unfuck the mess at 4x my previous salaried
| rate.
|
| Nothing against India or Indians but the reason outsourcing
| fails is no one wants to be an outsourced workforce so they go
| for promotion first to get a better job. And I don't blame
| them.
| quadrifoliate wrote:
| > Sitting in meetings where you were excluded from 30% of the
| conversation was wild.
|
| I am curious, was this due to them speaking in a different
| language _in actual professional meetings_ at Intel? I have
| often heard these reports, but in a social context.
|
| I have never personally observed this in professional settings;
| but am curious to hear more so I can watch out for it if/when I
| do encounter it. It's odd because _I_ would struggle to hold a
| professional conversation in any of the Indian languages that I
| speak (I have no idea how to say something like "thermal
| characteristics" or "power dissipation" in them); and would
| likely keep lapsing into English.
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| I have many Indian colleagues and they do tend not to speak
| English among them in the office. There needs to be someone
| else involved in the conversation for them to stick to
| English.
|
| Another aspect is that I have found that they are quite
| hierarchical, probably a cultural trait. So how much they
| stick to English also depends on how senior the "non-
| Indian(s)" are compared to them. If you are their senior they
| are very nice.
| drewbitt wrote:
| > was this due to them speaking in a different language in
| actual professional meetings
|
| This happened frequently at a WITCH I worked at out of
| college. The meeting would be in English then have segments
| change in the middle as certain speakers switched languages.
| Luckily, I often had a coworker stand up for me to mention to
| use English although I did miss many conversations.
| fragmede wrote:
| > WITCH stands for the Indian tech giants - W- Wipro I-
| Infosys T- TCS C- Cognizant H- HCL A- Accenture India
|
| In case anyone else was wondering about that acronym.
| JohnBrookz wrote:
| I have no idea what they were talking about. For all I know
| they could have been talking about soccer.
| throwawayha wrote:
| There was an article exposing it wasn't just for / between
| Indians.
|
| Indians were actively discriminating against other Indians if
| they weren't born into the "highest" caste of hinduism (the few
| percent only allowed to learn to read and write), or avoiding
| the "lowest caste" of hinduism (way over 90 percent).
|
| This caste system discrimination in tech, is also used to
| discriminate against other minorities who are not Indian,
| originating from the Indian subcontinent.
|
| Trapped in Silicon Valley's Hidden Caste System
| https://www.wired.com/story/trapped-in-silicon-valleys-hidde...
|
| Insight: Caste in California: Tech giants confront ancient
| Indian hierarchy https://www.reuters.com/business/sustainable-
| business/caste-...
|
| https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/big-techs-big-pro...
|
| More:
| https://www.google.com/search?q=silicon+valley+caste+system
| sandworm101 wrote:
| Canada has been dealing with this more proactively than most
| counties with Indian diasporas, a process no doubt aided by
| the by the significant number of indo-canadian politicians
| familiar with the issue.
|
| https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-human-
| rights-...
|
| https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/caste-
| discri...
|
| https://www.trtworld.com/americas/toronto-school-board-
| recog...
| dartharva wrote:
| If this has really been going on for more than a decade I
| wonder what your labor regulators are doing. This is a clear-
| cut issue of bad labor policy.
| navigate8310 wrote:
| Safe to say that 2010 was the beginning of Intel's downfall
| supriyo-biswas wrote:
| My guess would be that a lot of non-Indians at these companies
| are rejected on the basis of "vibes"; which is slightly different
| from racism as I explain below, although it probably ends up
| having the same net effect as overt racism.
|
| As an Indian, I've observed that collectivism and subservience
| towards authority figures are taught as virtues; this obviously
| makes it quite easy for employers to extract unreasonable demands
| such as long working hours, transgressions of ethical limits,
| things that are "bad", but that generates benefits for the
| employer.
|
| On the other hand, European and American societies generally
| focus on individualism and autonomy, which obviously causes a
| conflict when an Indian hiring manager sees anything other than
| complete deference to them as a threat, and proceeds to reject
| such candidates.
| Dalewyn wrote:
| >collectivism and subservience towards authority figures are
| taught as virtues
|
| Remind me to never fly on a plane piloted by an Indian flight
| crew.
|
| (Protip: If you can't stand up to your captain, your plane is
| going down.)
| joncrocks wrote:
| See cultural `power-distance`.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_culture_on_aviation_.
| ..
| nasmorn wrote:
| Still very rarely, just significantly more often
| fakedang wrote:
| > Remind me to never fly on a plane piloted by an Indian
| flight crew.
|
| (Protip: If you can't stand up to your captain, your plane is
| going down.)
|
| Not sure if you're joking, but this is actually cited as one
| of the reasons behind one crash.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_India_Express_Flight_134.
| ..
| bjourne wrote:
| Same with South Korean airline crashes: https://www.salon.c
| om/2013/07/10/cnn_asks_if_koreas_hierarch... But who knows
| if any of this is true or if "hierarchical cultures cause
| airline crashes" is just pop-sci bs.
| Lammy wrote:
| Also KAL 801 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Fli
| ght_801#Investig...
| ErigmolCt wrote:
| When these hiring decisions are based on gut feelings or
| "vibes," these subjective judgments often reflect an
| unconscious bias
| harshaxnim wrote:
| You're not wrong, but that bias is not stemming out of Racism
| imo. Also I'm not saying that the bias is acceptable, but it
| shows a different kind of social problem that often
| transcends classes and gender.
| llamaLord wrote:
| There's probably a really interesting, bit potentially
| controversial topic to be discussed here.
|
| As a Non-Indian, I'm quite aware/familiar with this kind of
| culture you speak of within Indian culture in the workplace
| and, to be blunt, if I were applying for a role as say a high
| level product manager (my current gig) and there was a native-
| born/raised Indian person as the hiring manager, I would at the
| very least be very cautious about this risk.
|
| But in this situation, given the power dynamic is in favour of
| the other party, does this make me "biased"?... Or just
| "careful"?
| bubblethink wrote:
| >My guess would be that a lot of non-Indians at these companies
| are rejected on the basis of "vibes"
|
| Are you sure it's not just money ? You can pay Indians on H1B
| less and keep them tied to you. At a place like Cognizant, you
| aren't trying to get the best talent. You want the cheapest
| talent that gets the job done.
| ewuhic wrote:
| How to fight back when you see this happening at line management
| level, but not yet proliferated to upper management?
|
| Indian product owner taking mostly to Indian peer developers,
| bypassing normal communication channels. Indians being friendly
| with each other and stone cold with the rest.
|
| Indians bringing Indian jokes to the table, with no outsider
| hoping to understand these. Indians bonding to go to Indian
| restaurants during lunch break, so now most of the colleagues
| follow suit, how to stop it all?
|
| All these culture things (except for the first regarding PO which
| is spit-in-the-face level of unprofessionalism) add up, and then
| you find yourself in a corporation described in other messages of
| this thread.
|
| I had to offboard from multiple projects throughout my career
| because development was hijacked by Indian cronyism.
| amazinteresting wrote:
| Best course of action is symmetrical response.
| bbor wrote:
| I'm gonna dip into politics a bit for my assertion that
| "fight racism with racism" isn't a great move, either for the
| societal long term or the personal/legal short term.
| zo1 wrote:
| That is the entire premise of DEI initiatives. It's yet
| another "an eye for an eye".
| skywhopper wrote:
| This is a delusional and hateful lie.
| zo1 wrote:
| Have you been on the receiving end of DEI? The same way a
| minority has been on the receiving end of racism?
|
| We can all wax lyrical and paint pretty pictures about
| the noble goals of DEI. But till we get an equal and fair
| world, the ugly picture is that DEI starts by dividing
| the pie into smaller parts, and taking from one to give
| to another, instead of making the pie bigger for
| everyone.
|
| And if history is anything to go by, most "DEI"-like
| efforts never ever reach that end-goal. They perpetuate
| indefinitely until they create yet another oppressed or
| previously-disadvantaged class, and the cycle will just
| repeat.
| ethbr1 wrote:
| The biggest problem with DEI policies in practice was
| that companies entrusted HR to implement them.
|
| HR at most companies doesn't do nuance or complexity.
| kshGa wrote:
| You could perhaps assume idealism in 2020. Four years
| later it is clear that DEI is used as a wedge to displace
| those you do not like and replace them with unskilled
| believers.
| j45 wrote:
| DEI is hardly about unskilled alternatives.
|
| It's only about getting people to the table who are
| equally qualified and capable and overlooked and under
| represented.
|
| Often to the chagrin of most people who are lamenting on
| it changing.
| zo1 wrote:
| Please don't take this personally, or as an attack on
| you. But having seen DEI first-hand, and the "equally
| qualified" people it has actively displaced and
| disenfranchised, I'd have to say that this view avoids
| the ugly reality on the ground wrt DEI. There is an
| entire country currently affected by it's poor
| implementation, and it's failure is just seen as more
| reason for efforts to be doubled and for more-extreme
| quotas to be put in place.
| j45 wrote:
| There's nothing personal to take. So you shouldn't take
| it personally.
|
| Perhaps, instead we can think about how could it be taken
| it professionally..
|
| There's equal or better qualified candidates for every
| position that don't make it to the table because of
| existing gatekeeping.
|
| That would likely have the effect of helping borderline
| candidates who can fail upwards, maybe do that a little
| less... or level up.
|
| What's curious is the presumption that one persons
| experience or interpretation (yours) doesn't mean a
| better perspective, experience can't exist.
|
| Is it possible you might not be the only one experiencing
| DEI?
|
| Gatekeeping has been a thing that's existed for a very,
| very, very long time. Often to the benefit of many of the
| people complaining about new kinds of space-making that
| affect gatekeeping that they didn't realize benefitted
| them.
|
| This current wave of DEI is definitely early. It's not
| perfect. Neither was the gatekeeping that preceded it.
|
| Other things that were early got a lot more leeway and
| understanding. But it can shows what some folks want to
| see happen (or not happen) one way or the other.
| ethbr1 wrote:
| From your comment, I'm guessing you're talking about the
| first consequence of DEI policies?
|
| - Using candidates' loud belief in DEI as a litmus test,
| even if the candidate themselves has no diverse
| characteristics
|
| - Hiring diverse candidates
| gruez wrote:
| Are you claiming positive discrimination has not been
| advanced under the banner of DEI, or that it has but
| wasn't true DEI?
| j45 wrote:
| DEI is more about getting equally qualified candidates to
| the table that are ignored or missed.
|
| Yes that makes it more competitive.
|
| Or less-competitive at an advantage to some and both
| others if it stayed the same way.
| zo1 wrote:
| Oh that may be the "on-paper" goal of DEI, and I'd be all
| for it if it _stayed_ that way; it sounds very very fair.
| But it never stays that way, and quotas enter the picture
| before long.
| j45 wrote:
| Tricky and slippery rationalizations are something I try
| to be mindful of.
|
| I put forward a single simple point. Since it's
| resonating in a response, it might be worth considering
| why, and see how our viewpoints form and how much of it
| might be rooted in isolating emotions like fear.
|
| In discussing, an open mind to me is one that can openly
| entertain a viewpoint that isn't their own, and seeing if
| they're open to growing or changing their viewpoint.
|
| Maybe.. the way your country does DEI is trying to do the
| opposite of the race based separation it did prior and
| doesn't know if any other levers exist?
|
| One nice thing is you're inheriting the world and can
| help make it the way you think it should be instead of
| wanting to be a passive beneficiary of past gatekeeping
| baselines.
|
| Hypothetically speaking... could openly entertain a
| viewpoint that isn't our own.. be similar to believing
| software could be better, if it was only improved, by
| trying to improve ourselves and building software better?
| gruez wrote:
| That's the motte of the DEI motte-and-bailey. The bailey
| contains policies like race based quotas or preferential
| treatment.
| j45 wrote:
| Race based quotas seem like very US things.
|
| Theres lots of ways to improve hiring.
|
| If holding space for equally qualified candidates is
| preferential treatment, is it having to exist because of
| the gatekeeping that existed before it?
|
| Still, it remains important for any practice to do a good
| job of helping everyone understand how it's working
| better.
|
| Too often companies jump to signal trends and keep doing
| whatever they were all along. Like organizations who's
| leadership looks nothing like the pool of qualified
| candidates in the respective country.
| the_gorilla wrote:
| > DEI is more about getting equally qualified candidates
| to the table that are ignored or missed.
|
| This is the first time I've heard that. The normal party
| line is that, yes, they're worse at the job but it's
| because they never got the opportunity to learn. You can
| observe in colleges that DEI-appointed students do
| massively worse overall despite probably being given even
| more leeway than normal students.
| j45 wrote:
| Wow, ok. So that kind of idea is really completely new,
| so it can't be valid?
|
| I think it's pretty easy to go learn the spectrum of DEI.
|
| The world is generally run with gatekeeping, which means
| withholding access to opportunity to improve one's life
| to a selected group for a long time.
|
| It's possible that your country may codify gatekeeping
| and privilege, and the only way they may know how is to
| do the same thing in the opposite way.
|
| It might not be a good way of holding space for qualified
| candidates to get to the same table, or even, not
| allowing an average person to "get a chance" to fail
| upwards except if you're from one background.
|
| The relevance of DEI shouldn't be held exclusively with
| its implementation at any given time, as long as it's
| improving. Kind of like software, maybe.
|
| I'm not sure where your observation is based on - happy
| to learn and read from any studies though beyond
| anecdotal differences.
|
| It would be like generalizing that lots of rich kids end
| up doing nothing as well after their parents pay for
| their way into and school. Doesn't make it true as a
| generalization of everyone though.
| the_gorilla wrote:
| > Wow, ok. So that kind of idea is really completely new,
| so it can't be valid?
|
| Theoretically it could be, but you should be aware if
| your argument directly contradicts years of other people
| advocating for DEI. The idea being sold isn't "we need
| jobs to be more merit based" but "we don't have enough
| merit and have to discriminate".
|
| > It's possible that your country may codify gatekeeping
| and privilege, and the only way they may know how is to
| do the same thing in the opposite way.
|
| My country, the US, codifies that you're not allowed to
| racially discriminate. Somehow this doesn't stop people
| from declaring that we must explicitly perform racially
| discrimination in order to offset some perceived
| discrimination.
|
| > The relevance of DEI shouldn't be held exclusively with
| its implementation at any given time, as long as it's
| improving. Kind of like software, maybe.
|
| The relevance is that I'm a race it explicitly
| disadvantages, and so it my family. It's illegal, racial
| discrimination is apparently immoral when it's done to
| anyone else, and it needs to go.
|
| > I'm not sure where your observation is based on - happy
| to learn and read from any studies though beyond
| anecdotal differences.
|
| Go look at medical schools. High scoring Whites and
| Asians are about as likely to get in as extremely poorly
| performing Black students.
|
| https://www.aei.org/wp-
| content/uploads/2017/06/med1.jpg?x850...
| j45 wrote:
| Thanks for sharing.
|
| Your country, explicitly codifies race based tracking in
| universities, long before this DEI wave. It's so
| incredibly wack. Other countries have better language to
| identify anything unique and under-represented, and maybe
| are less awkward but still awkward at it.
|
| Historically, the creation of places of higher learning
| in the US were not created for women to be accepted, let
| alone people of color.
|
| It's helpful to take a more historical look at how those
| pesky college application forms got the checkboxes they
| did, and how they were added at the moments of change in
| the particular decade. Imagine all the people who don't
| get counted.
|
| What kind of system names an entire group of people a
| whole continent like Asia? :)
|
| There is historical merit to people not being counted...
| not counting... or existing.. or qualifying as human
| enough to vote.
|
| When it comes to data.. what gets measured, gets
| managed.. and maybe some of the wording of what got
| measured had some unconscious bias.
|
| It's also not about whataboutism seeking a perfect
| solution to undermine change that is trying to be better
| for more people.
|
| I have some international experience in the academic
| industry and student data collection, management, etc.
| Race based data in the US always stands out compared to
| other countries.
|
| While it's true that disadvantaged children regardless of
| background can have similar challenges, its no contest
| that people of color experience it so very much more.
|
| Discrimination starts with the contract that there is a
| privileged contract place prior to it being adjusted for
| said offence.
|
| There are awful references to suggesting people of color
| "work harder" .. maybe that is advice for everyone?
|
| I'm not going to participate in taking shots at any one
| group of students, especially black students who are way
| more disadvantaged per capita than any other.
|
| About the med-school link - isn't it a little dated (and
| risking a stereotype) to believe that the best grades are
| the only thing important about getting into med school?
| Great doctors are well rounded people who connect with
| and help all walks of life - understanding people is a
| key skill beyond maniacal memorization and regurgitation
| for years of study to only stop and impossibly be behind
| research after graduation.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| It is if you look at it in a divisive, "us" vs "them"
| fashion. However, it's to try and make up for hundreds or
| more years of active suppression and exclusion from
| society and opportunities.
|
| Ask yourselves, who paid for your education? Was it
| pulled up by the bootstraps rags-to-riches, or did you
| get help from e.g. family? Where did you grow up, and how
| did that contribute to your current career / life?
|
| Now imagine you didn't have those opportunities, because
| your family (going back generations) never was able to
| build up generational wealth and comfort.
|
| DEI is an attempt to make up for that. Is it ideal? No.
| Does it come across as discrimination to the priviledged
| people / classes? Sure. Does it personally affect you?
| Probably not, but I don't know you (generalised you, the
| reader).
|
| That said, if you don't like DEI, vote and act
| accordingly. Work to make sure everyone earns a liveable
| wage, owns a house, gets a good education and consequent
| steady job opportunities regardless of familial wealth.
| Be and act anti-racist and anti-classist, because it's
| not enough to simply "not be racist".
| ErigmolCt wrote:
| It may feel satisfying, but it risks escalating tensions and
| fostering more division rather than solving the core issue.
| eru wrote:
| What makes you think so?
|
| Usually, the sanest recourse in these kinds of situations is
| to cut your losses and vote with your feet.
| trhway wrote:
| It is hard only about the first 10 years. Then you'll learn to
| stop worrying and love that. And the whole country will get
| closer to that with the first Indian President. And there will
| also be the first Chinese, and the first Hispanic Presidents.
| World is changing. And the "fighting back" is like pissing
| against the wind.
| quadrifoliate wrote:
| > Indians bringing Indian jokes to the table, with no outsider
| hoping to understand these. Indians bonding to go to Indian
| restaurants during lunch break, so now most of the colleagues
| follow suit, how to stop it all?
|
| Are you seriously asking how to "fight back" on Indians going
| to restaurants and joking with each other?
|
| As an Indian in a flyover state who has been routinely excluded
| from golfing events, and had my dietary needs totally ignored
| while organizing things like steakhouse lunches, this is sort
| of darkly funny to read.
| miningape wrote:
| Yeah, and I'd expect that treatment as a white person
| working/living in India, and I would adapt to fit in with
| local customs / culture or else leave. But they are in the
| US, working for a US company - why is it somehow acceptable
| when you are a foreigner to create these isolated
| professional enclaves that exclude the "native" population?
|
| (A group of people casually getting together is totally
| different to someone's work environment where they have to
| attend to bring a paycheck home - I'm talking exclusively
| about professional/work environments)
| quadrifoliate wrote:
| > Yeah, and I'd expect that treatment as a white person
| working/living in India, and I would adapt to fit in with
| local customs / culture. But they are in the US, working
| for a US company - why is it somehow acceptable when you
| are a foreigner to create these isolated professional
| enclaves that exclude the "native" population?
|
| Non-Hispanic white Americans are not native to the US, and
| I don't see a reasonable basis for concluding that non-
| Hispanic white culture should be the "native" or "default"
| culture in the US.
|
| Sure, it might be the dominant culture -- but there are
| other subcultures like Black or Hispanic cultures that are
| pretty strong here. Would you feel comfortable asking how
| to stop a group of Black coworkers from going to a
| restaurant that serves Black cuisine, or Hispanic coworkers
| from going to the local taqueria? If not, then why are you
| singling out Indians?
| miningape wrote:
| Hence the quotation marks: "native" - you're just
| derailing a legitimate line of reasoning.
|
| > I don't see a reasonable basis for concluding that
| European-American culture should be the "native" or
| "default" culture in the US
|
| Like it or not, it is the dominant culture especially in
| professional environments. If you want to have a
| conversation about why that is the case, what else it
| could be, etc. thats fine! But it's not the kind of
| conversation I'm looking to have here.
|
| > Would you feel comfortable asking how to stop a group
| of Black coworkers from going to a restaurant that serves
| Black cuisine, or Hispanic coworkers from going to the
| local taqueria?
|
| If they are doing it to the detriment of the overall
| business yes! - the line of reasoning follows for a
| predominantly Black business that is having a White
| enclave forming. Or a Hispanic cultured business with a
| Slavic enclave forming. Even more importantly a
| multicultural environment which is having 1 group
| overtake it. It's fundamentally a job of business leaders
| to set the tone and direction of company culture - and
| this is one aspect of it.
| quadrifoliate wrote:
| > Like it or not, it is the dominant culture especially
| in professional environments.
|
| At least sometimes it's not, which is why the OP feels so
| excluded and is asking for tips on how to navigate the
| clearly unfamiliar feeling of _not_ being able to just
| "fit in" as part of the dominant culture.
|
| The reality is that the US is a melting pot with a lot of
| subcultures, and you should learn to navigate those
| subcultures instead of demanding that they conform to
| some mythical default.
|
| Maybe next time the OP should show some curiosity about
| what their coworkers are joking about, and shyly ask for
| a seat at the table. I have done it plenty of times.
| miningape wrote:
| > Maybe next time the OP should show some curiosity about
| what their coworkers are joking about, and shyly ask for
| a seat at the table. I have done it plenty of times.
|
| Yep 100% this is the only decent solution OP has barring
| leaving the company. It leads to really interesting
| conversations and you get to learn a lot about a huge
| portion of the planet's population. Some people go out of
| their way for these experiences. But it also shouldn't be
| forced on someone who just wants to collect a paycheck.
| ethbr1 wrote:
| A lot of arguments here are getting caught on the wrong
| details.
|
| It's good to experience new cultures and stretch out of
| ones comfort zone!
|
| But cultural similarity is also the strongest form of
| bias in office dynamics.
|
| So, it's great if people go to Indian restaurants. It's
| not great if people _only_ go to Indian restaurants. It
| 's not great if people _only_ go to steakhouses.
|
| And it's especially not great if colleagues don't make
| efforts to include less culturally similar colleagues in
| events, whatever the cultures in question.
| fennecfoxy wrote:
| Shouldn't the members of the enclave proactively reach
| out themselves, then? As the host country has tried to
| make things more comfortable for them to start with.
|
| That seem to be the major difference between Western and
| non-Western countries; we're more cognisant of things
| like racism/being excluded and have taken steps to try to
| resolve it - you do not get the same in many other
| countries at all.
|
| It seems it's much more acceptable to be exclusionary and
| racist if you're non-white, sometimes.
| lupusreal wrote:
| When an ethnic group makes a tacit decision to form an
| enclave and exclude others, there is no "learning to
| navigate the subculture". Either you are pushed out or
| you find the leverage to make them stop doing that.
| sandworm101 wrote:
| >> non-Hispanic white Americans are not native to the US
|
| Then to where is it native? Don't deny a culture its
| existence just because it isn't the first culture to
| arise within a particular area. Example: Mormon culture
| and religion is "native" the US despite certainly not
| being the first culture in the area.
| quadrifoliate wrote:
| I am not the one throwing around the word "native"
| casually. To cite your example, Salt Lake City was
| founded less than 200 years ago whereas Puebloans have
| been living in the area for several thousands of years.
|
| You can certainly make a claim that Mormon culture is
| "native" to Utah, but I think at 200 v/s 5000+ you can
| expect that claim to be contested.
| karpatic wrote:
| Funny enough, the definition has nothing to do with
| ancestry. "Native: a person born in a specified place or
| associated with a place by birth, whether subsequently
| resident there or not."
| miningape wrote:
| Yeah, this is the exact sense in which I wrote it
| originally - but I sensed the screams of 1000 idiots and
| wrote "native" to try avoid that entire line of
| conversation. It seems though that my efforts went
| unnoticed - oh well!
| lupusreal wrote:
| > _Non-Hispanic white Americans are not native to the
| US,_
|
| Weird exclusion; Hispanic white Americans aren't native
| to the US either; their ancestors came from Spain.
| kshGa wrote:
| The dominant culture of Google and Microsoft when they
| were founded was [...]. Now they have Indian CEOs and
| companies like Cognizant bring in H1B visas from India.
|
| There is nothing organic about that.
|
| Personally I have no experience with Indian co-workers,
| but I do know that Black and Hispanic people do not
| exclude whites at all. I have only great experiences with
| them.
| 1over137 wrote:
| >Non-Hispanic white Americans are not native to the US...
|
| The word Hispanic comes from Hispania meaning "Iberian
| Peninsula", which, I have news for you, is in Europe.
| They are hardly native to the USA either.
| karpatic wrote:
| It was an amazing statement to read. I'm glad someone
| else caught that
| quadrifoliate wrote:
| I am aware of Hispania, etc. The thing you're perhaps
| missing is that 'minignape began their comment with "as a
| white person...".
|
| That is usually a characterization used by non-Hispanic
| white people; hence my reply referenced non-Hispanic
| whites. I also wanted to highlight that they would
| probably be tolerant of an unfamiliar _Hispanic_ white
| in-group at their company, but weren 't tolerant of a
| South Asian one.
| karpatic wrote:
| Text makes communication hard. Have a good day bud.
| quadrifoliate wrote:
| > And that's just false. And rude.
|
| Sorry, I'm just going to have to go with the consensus of
| the majority of scientific study on this one: https://en.
| wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_the_United....
|
| I'm sure you'll find some like-minded people that share
| your worldview and are not "rude".
| pvaldes wrote:
| Hispanic was initially just a way to tag the white non-
| protestant. Currently is a loose box to include a mix of
| Mediterranean, African and American natives. Some of this
| people definitely have American natives on their family
| lines and other are not even related with Europeans or
| not much.
|
| When Hispanic mix with Irish, or English, or French or
| North European, they are simply called "white". A lot of
| Spaniards are as much "white" in their aspect as one
| could ask for. They are just labeled as "non white" for
| outdated reasons but people always chuckle about it. Is
| just silly.
| mc32 wrote:
| People born in the US are native to the US -or are you
| arguing for de sanguinis citizenship? Chinese and Indians
| do follow de sanguinis, so maybe you're making the case?
| shrubble wrote:
| Actually Whites have as much if not more claims to North
| America than any other group; there's multiple times that
| they came to NA, including the Solutreans of about 12000
| years ago: https://insider.si.edu/2012/03/ice-age-
| mariners-from-europe-... ; plus the Viking settlement of
| 1021; plus the more recent fact of the USA being settled
| and turning wildernesses into the agricultural and
| technological powerhouse of today.
| selimthegrim wrote:
| That's funny I don't see anything about this in the
| constitution
|
| Also, weren't Solutreans brown skinned?
| robofanatic wrote:
| Thats a typical western mentality. If you do it then it is
| a problem but if I do the same thing it is somehow
| justifiable!
| miningape wrote:
| > I would adapt to fit in with local customs / culture or
| else leave
|
| What? It's apparently white to want to fit in with the
| local culture now.
| mdorazio wrote:
| The parent post was clearly asking how to fight back against
| a culture of exclusionism against non-Indians, which leads to
| racism.
| thih9 wrote:
| And quadrifoliate (this comment's grandparent) showed that
| exclusionism against Indians similarly exists and is
| harmful. Very much on topic in my opinion.
| smcl wrote:
| I would hope any sensible person would look at two comments
| by two people saying that they are being excluded by each
| others groups and think "the issue is people being excluded
| because they are not part of the 'in' group in their
| workplace, and people should work to be more inclusive"
| rather than concluding that the problem lies with Indian or
| non-Indian people specifically
| Hnrobert42 wrote:
| I am sorry for your experience. I also feel for GP.
|
| Neither of you should experience that. Your experience does
| not negate his. Nor his yours.
| j45 wrote:
| One is likely the majority, the other the minority.
|
| It doesn't negate any behaviour based on bias but would
| require an honest reflection on the unconscious biases
| existing in the workplace prior to this.
| worthless-trash wrote:
| Aren't they both the minority in their respective
| situations ?
| j45 wrote:
| One way to look at it is minority groups who can't turn
| off being visible minorities can be different than people
| who may be minorities in a a few areas of life but still
| have access to benefit from privilege in others.
| everdrive wrote:
| I'm not sure what your point is. "You can't talk about your
| problem because I have a problem as well" seems to be all
| you're saying.
|
| A better question would be how to prevent people from
| excluding each other based on group membership.
| quadrifoliate wrote:
| > I'm not sure what your point is.
|
| That's a good question. I suppose my point is that this is
| not something you have "fight back" against. Lots of people
| get excluded from social groups in professional settings
| due to some silly link that their coworkers have with each
| other.
|
| Learning to overcome your lack of cultural commonality with
| coworkers and and breaking into social groups is something
| that all of us need to do at some point. In my case -- I
| sucked it up, refused to learn golf but bonded with
| coworkers over board games; and ate the appetizers at the
| steakhouse.
|
| A tip for OP would be to try doing the equivalent thing in
| their context. Go up to your Indian coworkers and ask if
| you can accompany them to the restaurant. I promise you it
| will be fine.
| ethbr1 wrote:
| > _I promise you it will be fine._
|
| Just pass on the gulab jamun if you value your liver.
| quadrifoliate wrote:
| Pass on like 90% of the stuff that has fat and sugar. It
| is not representative of a household Indian meal, but
| rather of a rare feast.
|
| If you go more regularly, a _somewhat_ healthy meal at an
| Indian restaurant is:
|
| - The tandoor chicken ( _not_ the one in gravy)
|
| - The veggie salads and/or yogurt raita
|
| - Whole wheat rotis if you can find them
|
| - Any of the vegetables that _don 't_ have a ton of cream
| (cauliflower is one that's reliably dry)
|
| I can't pretend that I don't indulge with anything beyond
| that; but I tend to not be a regular at the Indian
| restaurants here.
| loufe wrote:
| I think that's an unfairly dismissive take and the "going to
| restaurants" bit is a mischaracterization at best.
|
| There massive difference is WHERE the discrimination is
| taking place. Most would not move to India or any other place
| and impose their culture and exclude locals in a fair and
| just world. I'm not saying it doesn't take place, and yes
| colonialism happened and was far worse, but we're talking
| about what SHOULD be.
| quadrifoliate wrote:
| > Most would not move to India or any other place and
| impose their culture and exclude locals in a fair and just
| world.
|
| I'm trying to say that going to restaurants as a group of
| people and having in-jokes does not qualify as "imposing
| your culture" in any way. These things routinely happen at
| companies that have few to no Indians, they just take a
| different form.
|
| Also, are you really claiming that if you moved to
| Bangalore, and had 2-3 coworkers from your hometown that
| you knew and shared cultural ties with; that you _wouldn
| 't_ tend to hang out together at lunch?
| ethbr1 wrote:
| The point is not the restaurant or jokes, but whether
| business decisions are made there (or if relationships
| built there drive business decisions).
| quadrifoliate wrote:
| Sure, but Americans have been doing this for hundreds of
| years through exclusionary hobbies like golf, fantasy
| football, and a hundred other things. That's just how
| social groups work. They are often cliquey and
| exclusionary.
|
| That's why I think it's weird to only target Indians in
| this regard. They are building an in-group _just like
| everyone else_ ; the difference is that OP seems to have
| little experience _not_ being part of the in-group.
| ethbr1 wrote:
| That's true and they have.
|
| But that doesn't make it okay for others to do.
|
| We should be working to decrease it in _all_ exclusionary
| groups by working to make them more inclusionary. That
| means intentionally rotating comfort zones.
|
| And it is a historically seductive siren call that once
| an immigrant community in any country attains some power,
| they use it to ramp up exclusion and cronyism.
|
| In all fairness, to protect their tenuous grasp on that
| power from external racism, but it also succumbs to use
| for less noble, more human ends. E.g. getting ones friend
| hired.
| TimedToasts wrote:
| I'm glad that you're admitting this is happening.
| skeaker wrote:
| Other groups doing this too doesn't make it okay. Nobody
| should be forming exclusionary groups where all the shots
| are called and business decisions are made.
| gedy wrote:
| The better question is: if you had a Bangalore company
| founded by Indians, then a management hire from the US or
| Britain started hiring immigrants from there too, and
| they excluded or sidelined Indians, especially ones who
| didn't speak English - you'd be annoyed too right?
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| Actually you'll find that this happens a lot. Search up
| expat communities, for example. They don't necessarily
| "impose their culture and exclude locals", but they are for
| and by the expats from a certain country.
|
| Seeking "your" people when living/working abroad, or when
| working in a diverse workspace, is pretty normal and
| happens everywhere. It's usually harmless though.
| n1b0m wrote:
| Brits living in Spain is a classic example
| noisy_boy wrote:
| Brits living anywhere outside of Britain is a classic
| example - exemplified by the clubs and societies formed
| around the world when the sun didn't set in/on their
| empire.
| swasheck wrote:
| i'm not sure that's the point though. i think the point
| is lost in op layering restaurants and jokes and such
| into their narrative. i think the actual point and
| concern is how being "out-group" affects their employment
| due to what they perceive as deliberate exclusion.
| Izkata wrote:
| Yes, everyone is ignoring the preface to that part:
|
| > Indians being friendly with each other and stone cold
| with the rest.
| xienze wrote:
| > Are you seriously asking how to "fight back" on Indians
| going to restaurants and joking with each other?
|
| Yes? Or is it just a problem when white people choose to
| associate with one another at work?
| quadrifoliate wrote:
| I am saying that neither is a problem. We all have to break
| into social groups at work and even before that (ever watch
| "Mean Girls"?). This is not a problem specific to any group
| of people; and OP's fixation is unnecessary in my opinion.
| gosub100 wrote:
| you chose to move to another country. thats the difference
| 39896880 wrote:
| You seem to be fixating on the term "fight back," when the
| commenter you're replying to is asking for ways to not feel
| excluded at his/her job, where s/he spends a majority of
| his/her waking hours.
|
| As someone who has experienced this, I encourage you to draw
| on that experience and have empathy, even if that experience
| is expressed in ways that don't immediately resonate with
| you. You have more in common with the commenter you're
| replying to than you appreciate.
| zozbot234 wrote:
| > [looking] for ways to not feel excluded at his/her job,
| where s/he spends a majority of his/her waking hours.
|
| And the people GP is talking about are trying to do the
| exact same thing, though obviously in highly detrimental
| ways. Part of professionalism entails not making your job
| into an identity that overwhelms every other aspect of your
| life. If you just focus on delivering good results to the
| best of your ability, there's no need to be dependent on
| constant social approval from 'insider' peers.
| swasheck wrote:
| this is fascinating to me because it's how i have handled
| my career and it's had unexpected positive and negative
| effects. all-in-all i'm more satisfied than my friend
| group with my day to day work existence but am steps
| behind them in the traditional career path milestones.
| though i lack the titles they have, i'm squarely median
| when it comes to annual base income, which is comfortable
| and provides very well for my family. however, i'm
| beginning to age and realize that potential employers are
| beginning to balk at my title/"informal" leadership (read
| "experience") with my age and salary and duration in the
| workforce.
| swasheck wrote:
| i'm sorry for your experience(s) and how frustrating that
| must be. what you've experienced isn't "right" and while it's
| valid that you bring it up as a general concern and
| experience, it comes across as though you're justifying how
| OP experiences their own work environment. as someone who has
| essentially experienced the same treatment, but from the
| opposite side, this is an opportunity you had to validate and
| confirm the presence of such behavior while expanding the
| scope of its presence. now we're hung up on restaurants and
| golf courses and choosing sides instead of discussing the
| core problem
| AStonesThrow wrote:
| > this is sort of darkly funny to read.
|
| I'm hopeful that some light will be shed on how ridiculously
| dystopian it is to force D.I.E. mandates with posters like
| "United Colours of Benetton" as if "All Men/Women/Etc Are
| Created _In Test Tubes_ Equivalent And Interchangeable " and
| we Voters of American Progressive Enlightenment must lobby to
| crush out every aspect of culture that suggests otherwise.
|
| https://youtu.be/vvDYuj1Bs6Y?si=sodV00r3eefBoZ79 _Harrison
| Bergeron_ for ya
|
| So it goes. _Namaste_.
| giantg2 wrote:
| Imagine being autistic and rarely having that bonding you talk
| about, and certainly not with entire teams.
| ThinkBeat wrote:
| For some reason that sounds like how white men are described in
| general, in many quarters now.
| ErigmolCt wrote:
| Cultural bonding is natural, but it's critical that it doesn't
| undermine team spirit or create divisions. Is there any
| possibility to escalate the issue with your immediate manager?
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| >All these culture things (except for the first regarding PO
| which is spit-in-the-face level of unprofessionalism) add up,
|
| you said it yourself, the first one was unprofessional and
| should be avoided and may be cause for action. The other
| things, learn to live as the minority in a group and accept
| what the group values.
|
| I mean maybe your colleagues follow suit about eating Indian
| food because Indian food is delicious? "Hey you guys know a
| good Indian food place around here - that's great!" would be my
| response.
| throwaway48476 wrote:
| It sounds like they do have a group with its own values.
| nelblu wrote:
| As an Indian immigrant I had noticed this very early on too. It
| made me very uncomfortable when some of us would crack jokes in
| non-English language while there were others around who didn't
| understand the language. After first few years I stopped
| working for companies that had mostly Indians in IT. I must say
| I have been lucky since then to always find a good mix of
| diverse backgrounds in my team that it has not been a problem.
| dlahoda wrote:
| I am from slavic lands, and found out that I prefer not to
| work within mostly slavic teams, as any other teams with high
| genetic and cultural cohesions.
| quadrifoliate wrote:
| As a fellow Indian immigrant, I actually share your
| discomfort, and always try to be inclusive and diverse in my
| social groups. Most of my Indian coworkers and friends behave
| this way -- we came to the US to be a part of a mixed
| culture, so our social groups should be diverse.
|
| What makes me uncomfortable is that this inclusivity is
| increasingly being taken for granted to the point where _not_
| having it starts conversations about how to "fight back".
|
| Even though it's not my preference I don't think there is
| anything _wrong_ with Indians cracking jokes in a non-English
| language, or going to a restaurant by themselves. You will
| find that Americans will mysteriously be far more tolerant
| of, say, a group of French people talking among themselves in
| French; and going to a French restaurant as a group.
| zknow wrote:
| In public, yeah people probably wouldn't care about french
| speakers, but in a shared environment I definitely would
| prefer they speak English. My brother use to have to tell
| his Dutch-Canadian in-laws to speak English when we were at
| his house. I'd feel the same way at work.
| eru wrote:
| > How to fight back when you see this happening at line
| management level, but not yet proliferated to upper management?
|
| Vote with your feet, if you don't like it?
| thinkingtoilet wrote:
| Now imagine being a minority. You're white colleagues making
| white jokes. Hiring only white people. Going to white
| restaurants. Etc... I like when a privileged class gets a
| contact high of the real world for so many and can't handle it.
| Employment discrimination is one thing. Having friends and
| going to lunch is another. For the record, as a white man I've
| never met, in my entire life, a single Indian person who
| refused to be friends with me and was only friends with other
| Indian people. I'm sure they exist. There are ass holes
| everywhere. This is not an epidemic. However, your response
| reeks of privilege. "How is it possible I'm not on top?!?!?"
| bakugo wrote:
| > You're white colleagues making white jokes. Hiring only
| white people. Going to white restaurants.
|
| Pretty sure white people aren't mass immigrating to India and
| doing this there.
| throwawayha wrote:
| Eat Pray Love?
| ttyprintk wrote:
| I don't have an opinion if someone is wondering whether one
| of those cultures is more worthwhile to seek acceptance. But
| I learned a lot about exclusion from an Indian coworker who
| was not heterosexual.
| mellosouls wrote:
| I think thats an unfair reading of the comment you replied to
| - racist and exclusionary behaviour is rightly no longer
| tolerated in policy intent (if not always in actuality) at
| professional corporations.
|
| The issue highlighted here is that it seems at times that
| there are exceptions that people are afraid to call out and
| criticise, especially at lower levels.
| didgeoridoo wrote:
| I've actually had a very different experience -- including in
| my interactions with Cognizant as a vendor. Indian managers
| acting utterly cruel and abusive to Indian line workers
| (especially remote or H1B), while being generally kind and
| accommodating to non-Indian team members. Maybe there was a
| class/caste thing at play that was totally opaque to me. It was
| an extremely uncomfortable environment to work in.
| noisy_boy wrote:
| Tribalism and slave mentality can coexist.
| dotnet00 wrote:
| Even as an Indian, I don't know how that could be tackled, it
| seems to be kind of systemic.
|
| I'd always been around people from all sorts of places, and
| many of the schools I went to would intentionally keep kids of
| similar origins apart to force them to mingle with others, so I
| grew up to prefer being around people from different places
| over just sticking with other Indians. I've had several
| experiences of running into people who seem to take pride in
| being the way you describe. My interpretation has been that
| they have a chip on their shoulder about not being "westerners"
| and view anyone who is better integrated as being some sort of
| traitor.
|
| For now, I've only had to experience it in school and
| university. It's been awful every time. Yours is also a
| sentiment many people have expressed to me about other Indians
| once they've opened up to me and realized I won't care if they
| say something that could be racist.
| mock-possum wrote:
| > to go to Indian restaurants during lunch break
|
| Don't threaten me with a good time
| commandlinefan wrote:
| > Indian jokes
|
| Now I want to hear an Indian joke.
| Eumenes wrote:
| This is obvious at a number of these big box consulting firms for
| many years (Tata, Cognizant, HCL, Capgemini). Its so easy to
| verify too - go on linkedin and comb through dozens of search
| results of exclusively Indians (I'm not talking about American-
| Indians who go to undergrad in the US like every other person).
| These firms also take a lions share of the h1b visas which is
| another conversation - why does India get to have 75% of all h1b
| visas? Seems not very diverse.
| lmz wrote:
| > why does India get to have 75% of all h1b visas? Seems not
| very diverse.
|
| Not to defend the Indians or their paymasters, but the H1B
| isn't diversity based, and there are a _lot_ of Indians who
| also speak English, so...
| dartharva wrote:
| Because there are just that many applicants from India? The
| result of this is also that Indians have virtually no scope of
| settling down in the US, since the waitlist for green card for
| them goes beyond 134 years. Which means none of those H1B
| holders are going to stay.
| Eumenes wrote:
| Who processes the applicants? Indian bosses (see the
| tweet/articles). Many US permeant residents are being passed
| over at these big consulting firms in favor of Indians. Its
| nepotism, 100%. Indians in the US are not discriminated
| against. Despite being < 2% of the population of the US, they
| have an oversized influence in many industries/management
| level roles.
| dartharva wrote:
| If only H1Bs were given out in an auction instead of a
| lottery..
|
| Think about it, this could solve everything. There would no
| longer be exploitation on either side.
| pk_anon123 wrote:
| I just posted this comment with a new account to check how easily
| hearsay influences people's opinions with no backing, whatsoever.
| I hope this thread will stay up as a reminder to stay civil and
| not get carried away by clouded judgement.
| pm90 wrote:
| How is this discrimination manifested? How do these managers
| know your country of origin?
| mattmaroon wrote:
| An Indian person can spot a Pakistani (and vice versa)
| easily. There's a good bit of historical enmity between the
| two nations.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| Does this apply to castes as well? I mean in western Europe
| you can often pick out the classism based on how people
| dress, have their hair and what their accent is (I'm very
| obvious because of my "provincial" accent and terrible
| sense of style, lol).
|
| Classism in the Netherlands isn't too bad though, unless
| you're from the old aristocracies (they live in certain
| areas, go to private schools, often have archaic letter
| combos like Y, AE, CK, or apostrophes in their multi-word
| surnames, etc [1]), they definitely live on their own
| island. Often end up in politics, too, because so it goes.
|
| [1] https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijst_van_Nederlandse_ade
| llijk...
| consp wrote:
| > Classism in the Netherlands isn't too bad though
|
| Wait until they figure out you earn less than them. "You
| cannot understand [rich people bs 'struggle']" I've had
| the misfortune of hearing over and over again, them
| showing a complete lack of any form of empathy for anyone
| except their own class.
| dartharva wrote:
| No? I am an Indian living in India, and if a Pakistani
| person were to live next door I wouldn't be able to make it
| out unless he told me himself.
| mattmaroon wrote:
| Im neither but I can tell a Pakistani accent from an
| Indian one. Is that not the case there?
|
| And you would certainly know if you were working with
| someone, at least here.
|
| I suppose I have spent a lot of time with Indian
| Americans but not as much with Indians in India (just
| zoom calls) so that's interesting.
| dartharva wrote:
| Pakistani accents often perfectly coincide with Punjabi
| and UP (Indian states) accents.
| lazide wrote:
| Pakistani's are almost always Muslim (due to Partition
| [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_India]), and
| will often act and speak differently in several telltale ways
| for anyone who knows what to look for. Both given and
| family/surnames are also often telltales.
|
| And if you think Casteism is a bitch, Pakistani/Indian (or
| Indian Hindu vs Indian Muslim) is a bitch and a half. Just
| try to apply for a visa for India and see how many times they
| ask if you or any of your relatives are from Pakistan to get
| a taste.
|
| Edit: ooh, downvotes away. Hah! No better way to tell when
| you hit a nerve than the torches come out.
| gruez wrote:
| >>A lot of hatred passes unnoticed beacuse of the lumping
| together of the South Asian immigrants in all discussions.
|
| >How do these managers know your country of origin?
|
| The irony.
| onetimeacc123 wrote:
| I hear you, brother. I am an Indian Muslim and I have
| essentially stopped considering any company that has a
| considerable number of Indians. I actively filter these
| companies out when searching for jobs. The daily micro-
| aggressions are detrimetal to my mental health, and I have
| finally come to terms that this is beyond my power to reform,
| hence my decision to simply ignore. This is sad, really really
| sad.
| xeanotods wrote:
| I can relate. Countless awful experiences but avoidance seems
| futile. Filtering out these work environments pre-hire is
| difficult and also, environments change. I've been cut out of
| information chains by the "Indian mafia" and sidelined in
| financially impacting ways. It's a terrible feeling when you
| first realize how outgunned you are and how cohesive they are
| in their tactics. I find it more scary than sad actually
| because of how unconstrained by empathy and ethics their mob
| approach is towards anyone they perceive as a challenge to
| their hegemony. It's actually one of my biggest issues with
| working in the tech sector and I don't see any way around it.
| fakedang wrote:
| I wrote about this in another comment, but I've typically found
| that public US companies hiring a majority of Indian/Indian-
| origin staff seem to perform (in market cap terms) on par with
| companies have just 10% of their total employee headcount.
| gruez wrote:
| Source? Would be an interesting finding if there were figures
| behind it.
| jackcosgrove wrote:
| Even if true it doesn't prove anything because the arrow of
| causation could go either way. These businesses could be
| already worse from a financial or working environment
| perspective, and thus unable to hire from a pool of workers who
| have more options.
| selimthegrim wrote:
| Do you have a link to your other comment?
| bobosha wrote:
| I am a proud Indian-American (naturalized after h1b) and I think
| this kind of discriminatory mindset has no place anywhere,
| definitely not in the workplace. I think my community can be
| secure in its success and learn to do better and be open to
| critique. Let's work to abolish these attitudes by being more
| self-aware and raising awareness & use cautionary tales like this
| as a wake-up call.
| vitus wrote:
| Why is the submission a link to a twitter screenshot of a news
| article?
|
| https://www.mercurynews.com/2024/10/07/h-1b-visa-company-sup...
| is the paywalled source.
|
| That said, https://www.siliconvalley.com/2024/10/07/h-1b-visa-
| company-s... seems to be the exact same article (author,
| timestamp, and all) published by the same group (Bay Area News
| Group) but without a paywall. (Both siliconvalley.com and
| mercurynews.com are registered to MediaNews Group, which is the
| owner of Bay Area News Group as of 2006.)
| dang wrote:
| Switched to that latter link now. Thanks!
|
| Submitters: " _Please submit the original source. If a post
| reports on something found on another site, submit the latter._
| " - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| eru wrote:
| Since there's a lot of negativity about Indians in the comments
| here:
|
| I just worked for a startup with many Indians (including the
| founder). It was all fine, and I liked my coworkers. I can
| understand that other people had different experiences: companies
| and people differ.
|
| For context, everything was remote, and I worked from Singapore.
| I'm not India, but I do like to prepone my meetings.
| p_l wrote:
| The big problem are WITCH companies (of which "C" is for
| Cognizant usually) and those that, through osmosis or
| purposeful actions, copy their practices.
|
| The contracting companies probably single-handed build and
| maintain lots of racist stereotypes against indians, because
| the level of service those companies offer is always
| unmitigated failure, even internally. I once accidentally
| stumbled into working on a contract through WiPro myself, and
| it was a horrific experience. The way I see it, the line
| workers that end up the target of ire and stereotypes are just
| victims of actions taken way above them.
|
| The people who can, apparently avoid working for them, or use
| every opportunity to escape. Those who can't yet but have
| ambition for more, apparently use every opportunity to escape -
| whether it is by jumping ship on H1B, or otherwise. Those
| currently stuck are in no way encouraged to do a good job, and
| for obvious cost cutting you get people who were in no way
| prepared to do the job.
|
| Occasionally a client will get angry enough and they will pull
| an actually skilled person to smooth the ruffled feathers,
| someone they usually trot for dog&pony show when winning the
| contract as example of who is supposed to work on it.
|
| But the "important" people, upper management who decide to
| contract with WITCH, and the upper management of WITCH who run
| such strategy, they all profit. The managers and/or C-level who
| outsource sight-unseen with no quality enforcement disappear
| with their rewards before institutional inertia stops papering
| over their decisions. The WITCH companies pocket huge amounts
| of money while paying pittance to line workers and providing
| worse than zero service.
| eru wrote:
| Yeah, that sounds pretty dreadful.
|
| A few jobs ago, when I was working for a third-tier legacy
| bank, my manager joked that all the outsourcing they were
| doing was actually really useful and pragmatic, because it
| means they can fail their IT projects cheaper. (The
| implication being that their projects were by and large
| inevitably doomed anyway.)
| commandlinefan wrote:
| > a lot of negativity about Indians
|
| There isn't, though. There's a lot of negativity about _H1B_s
| in the comments here, but you conflate that with Indian.
| dang wrote:
| There was, unfortunately, but most of it has since been
| (correctly) flagged.
| ssbash wrote:
| Respectfully, I don't think enough has been removed.
|
| As someone with Indian heritage it's super disheartening to
| see plenty of comments negatively generalizing a diaspora
| of over 1B people.
|
| Treating anyone who presents as Indian as apart of cultural
| monolith is absurd. I was born and raised in the US, and
| have no connection to the alleged cronyism or caste-based
| discrimination.
|
| Many of these comments make blanket statements about
| Indians. I don't think the same moderation guidelines are
| being applied in this case. Replace Indians with Europeans,
| Black people or any other ethnicity and it should become
| clear that this violates the site's guidelines.
|
| Here are a few top level examples:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41786112
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41786205
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41786534
| tock wrote:
| It's weird how racism against Indians online is so normalised. I
| see the same on reddit too.
| p_l wrote:
| Thank WiPro/Infosys/Tata/Cognizant/HCL and everyone who apes
| their practices.
|
| The end result is that you see a mention of "Bangalore" and you
| get immediate shivers because it doesn't matter how nice and
| good as a person the people you are forced to work with are, if
| the entire qualification you can discern is that they are
| statistically expected to speak english, and their work
| environment and supervisors enforce certain counter-productive
| behaviours. Which is honestly abusive to the poor person in
| Bangalore, because it's not like they can learn the skills this
| way either.
|
| To the point that I once had security team in a company where
| specific area of security might involve "uncomfortable
| questions from government" in cases of failure (fortunately not
| defense industry) actually sponsor my efforts to bypass
| supposedly crucial firewall - because connectivity including
| said firewall were handled by TCS.
| kylehotchkiss wrote:
| But things a LOT of us here use often and might even enjoy
| are built in Banaglore too, and it's a shame it doesn't get
| more publicity. Target has a fairly massive office over there
| working on their tech (plz correct me if I'm wrong)
| https://india.target.com
| mardifoufs wrote:
| Weird thing to comment on an article about Indian racism, but
| okay.
| elisharobinson wrote:
| Some of the reasons why this is happening :
|
| -> Getting an assignment in the US is viewed as a reward for
| employees who work in the company for 5+ years.
|
| -> H1B visa employess are given a 50% minimum discount to market
| rate. cause lol what are you gonna do . Quit and go back in the
| Queue for H1B.
|
| -> nepotism / favoritism self explanatory.
|
| -> Are more willing to work 40+ hours a week. Less likely to take
| vacations.
|
| These are the observations of myself and members of my family who
| are from India.
| infecto wrote:
| Is that discount really true? There is a definite discount but
| I have never seen 50%, all of this data is online, you can see
| the payroll for H1B employees.
|
| https://h1bdata.info/
| victor106 wrote:
| I have personally experienced this in all my previous
| projects and my current one.
|
| H1B does suppress wages as employees don't care how much they
| are paid. They only care that they stay on H1 so they get
| their green cards.
|
| However, one they get their green card they feel the same
| that H1B's suppress wages...lol...
| infecto wrote:
| Eh, your not wrong but my counter point is when I have
| looked up people before in the public data, their salary
| was in line what I and others were making in the same role.
| The H1B data does not list name but it is detailed enough
| that you can generally guess who it is in small-medium size
| companies.
| elisharobinson wrote:
| thanks for the ref , but it kinda proves the point . your
| source suggests the avg comp for senior software engineer is
| 100-150 K . on glass door it 178-263 .
| https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/senior-software-
| engineer-... .
| infecto wrote:
| Your analysis is flawed. Its much better to run through a
| FAANG and compare to levels.fyi. I just did for Meta and
| the base salary numbers are within the ranges I saw on
| Levels. Actual level is not outlined so its a broad range.
|
| These numbers are set using prevailing wage calculations
| for a geographical area and role. There is an incentive for
| companies to figure out ways to get it as low as possible
| but I have never seen 50% myself, that is a hard stretch to
| pass the DOL.
| elisharobinson wrote:
| so your telling me my analysis is flawed because i didnt
| take META as a base. MY guy the article is about CTS. NOT
| META.
|
| H1B is to tech what H2A is for agriculture . Yall want to
| Drive the combine ( Managment, Software development, VC )
| but dont want to do the dirty work ( QA, Devops, IT admin
| )
| infecto wrote:
| >Yall want to Drive the combine ( Managment, Software
| development, VC ) but dont want to do the dirty work (
| QA, Devops, IT admin )
|
| Woah, less caps and racist thoughts and more critical
| thinking please. I am saying taking a simple average
| between the two like you did is flawed for a number of
| reasons.
|
| 1) You don't even have an apples to apples comparison.
| H1B data is based on prevailing wage which is just base
| pay. So taking your link, 129K - $171K/yr comparing to
| your other data, 100-150k. Lets take a simple average.
| and say the glassdoor wage is 150k, that means 50%
| minimum, remember you said minimum, is 75k. That does not
| really track with 125k.
|
| 2) Prevailing wage is based not only on the role but the
| geographical location too. An overall average between
| those two datasets is a very rough guide and I think its
| better to do direct comparisons at a company level or
| regional level. Again there is still a lot of
| normalization and cleanup to do in the datasets, the H1B
| data is not great for analysis right out of the gate.
|
| Your case of a minimum 50% reduction in base pay is hard
| to defend except in outlier cases. If it was closer to
| 25% I think its a much easier number to defend.
| elisharobinson wrote:
| so you would admit that a 25% diff in base pay would be
| plausible . so would you also admit a 25% diff in
| benifits would also be plausible . granted the total diff
| would work out to somewhere around 30~40% range , but i
| still hold if we are comparing true apple to apple and we
| exclude FAANG , we would most likely get in the 50%
| range.
|
| Some emphasis should be made on the total percentage of
| H1B applicants 75% are Indian and at-least ~90% of those
| are in the TECH working for CTS, TCS both are consulting
| firms They dont sell any products or services (and dont
| have offices in SF). They survive by giving the lowest
| bid for a service . And when the minimum wage is the
| lower bound why bother paying any higher (60-75%
| discount), This was the case prior to trump. After Trump
| H1Bs became scarce and to justify it you needed "highly
| skilled" employees and they made the paygap more
| justifiable to 45-50%.
|
| So i still hold my original statement H1B is for tech
| what H2A is for agriculture.
| infecto wrote:
| > so you would admit that a 25% diff in base pay would be
| plausible . so would you also admit a 25% diff in
| benifits would also be plausible . granted the total diff
| would work out to somewhere around 30~40% range , but i
| still hold if we are comparing true apple to apple and we
| exclude FAANG , we would most likely get in the 50%
| range.
|
| 25% of the pieces summed would be 25% of the whole. I am
| not sure how we hand wave to 30-40% and then jump to 50%.
| Your 50% minimum is still dubious but hey go with it!
| mr90210 wrote:
| I am going to disclose my own bias here: I tend to look for
| multicultural teams and somewhat evenly distributed.
|
| As an African so far I have worked and learnt a lot from a
| Brazilian-Japanese, Bulgarian, Portuguese, Dutch, Belgian,
| Israeli, Russian, English, Indian, Pakistani, German,
| Argentinian, and a Polish.
|
| Some of which I have the pleasure to call friend.
| ctxc wrote:
| Hello, potential friend.
| miningape wrote:
| Also an African here, and this is exactly how I feel about it -
| the world is too interesting to ignore.
| dotnet00 wrote:
| Yep, those kinds of teams are the most fun to be in.
| atcognizant wrote:
| Some of favorite coworkers have been from India during my career.
| This includes both their personalities as I got to know them and
| their demeanor at work.
|
| I have worked at Cognizant for just over a year. Though we don't
| have this problem on my immediate team, it is something we talk
| about because it's obvious in other teams and as an overall
| culture at the company.
|
| It doesn't seem like overt discrimination (from me and my
| coworkers limited perspectives). There's a couple factors
|
| 1. People hire who they know. About two thirds of the employees
| are of Indian descent. So on average they hire their friends and
| former coworkers who are also Indian.
|
| 2. Leadership requires the offshore teams to be on every project.
| This is to keep costs down and because the other lines of
| business besides their main and original one (staff augmentation)
| are relatively new.
|
| 3. A minority (but not a small one) of Indians really are just
| blatantly discriminatory.
| commandlinefan wrote:
| > Some of favorite coworkers have been from India
|
| Mine, too. Some of my least favorite coworkers have been from
| India as well. Mostly because almost all of my coworkers have
| been from India since about 1997.
| bushido wrote:
| The comments on this story are very interesting - not in the good
| way. This rhetoric is very similar to previous ones that existed
| in over the decades like Jewish/Polish/Chinese/etc people only
| doing business with other people of their groups. Or
| democrats/republicans in deep blue/red states sticking with their
| own.
|
| Back to the topic:
|
| I know a lot of 2nd, 3rd generation Indians who definitely do not
| fit the stereotypes.
|
| What we're likely seeing is the effect of three things:
|
| - Indian has a very community based dynamic that prioritizes
| group identity over individual identities, a number of folks have
| never experienced being outside their groups
|
| - Newly arrived Individual are likely experiencing culture shock,
| it happens to most people. It's very much a fight or flight
| response. People either choose the tribe they know, or find a new
| one. The later is rare
|
| - Most other ethnic groups we're hearing about took a few
| generations to get to white collar jobs, they already understood
| local norms, because these were their norms. We're seeing a lot
| of 1st generation Indians (and some other groups) start in white
| collar professions, and that will play out differently.
| p_l wrote:
| I think it's offloading well known problematic companies issues
| like Cognizant onto nationality.
|
| It's the nature of service that WITCH prefers to provide and
| puts people in position where it's hard to change it, and the
| executives who contract with WITCH.
| bushido wrote:
| Good point. That initialism is new to me, I can see how
| companies that fall into that group can be problematic.
| horns4lyfe wrote:
| None of this will matter when the entirety of IT and software
| dev becomes an ethnic enclave for Indians, while being told
| that there's just not enough local talent. It's going to
| happen, just a matter of time, and we'll all suffer for it.
| dartharva wrote:
| The waitlist for Indians to get a green card (i.e. second-class
| citizenship) is 134 years currently. By the end of this decade,
| it will touch 200. No regular Indian going on a work visa to the
| US currently has any significant scope of ever being recognized a
| citizen.
|
| Think of that what you will, but the list of incentives an Indian
| has to bother integrating into American society is rather short.
| p_l wrote:
| Cognizant, Infosys, etc. are also quite well known to avoid
| putting their H1B (or equivalent) in position to consider
| staying or have opportunity to stay.
| wslh wrote:
| Genuinely asking as someone not deeply familiar with the
| complexities of Indian culture: India now has the largest
| population in the world, is the biggest democracy, and has
| significant potential for growth (e.g. reducing poverty). At
| the same time, we see Indian leaders in top positions in major
| U.S. companies, like the CEOs of Google (1st gen) and Microsoft
| (2nd gen). How do these factors all connect? What drives this
| mix of internal challenges and global success? I'm not naive in
| thinking that a few successful individuals represent an entire
| population, but I do see a signal there.
| kamaal wrote:
| 1. India has a low gdp per capita. What that means is quality
| of life for masses is low. That also means slum/ghetto like
| neighbourhoods. Even if you have the money you mostly stay in
| a gated community, sandwiched between those areas. So you
| want to leave ASAP and stay in the west.
|
| 2. The Indians in top leadership positions you see in tech
| firms are rare exceptions. To some extent they also come from
| fairly well off families and communities in India, who have
| social capital. Can afford cram school fees for Ivy league
| exams, money and ability to take loans to study abroad etc.
|
| 3. Any body who once makes non-trivial money or sees non-
| trivial career success instantly realises, given how big
| India is. Given its politics, and overall spending on
| Education, R&D, and the rate of industrialisation. The only
| hope for a good life for their, or atleast at their children
| is to move to the west.
|
| Basically people want to leave India, as fixing India is
| largely a long term, and also a nearly impossible project.
| Eumenes wrote:
| The Indians migrating to the US via h1b visas are not
| coming from the slums or ghettoes. Higher education to
| foreigners in the US is essentially an immigration scheme -
| they pay $60-$100k (+living expenses) for a useless
| graduate degree which only the rich can afford, then get
| funneled into consulting firms like Cognizant/Infosys on
| OPT/EAD visas before picking up their h1b for ~ 6 years.
| This pretty much gets you in the US for ~ 10 years before
| getting a green card.
|
| > The Indians in top leadership positions you see in tech
| firms are rare exceptions
|
| This is absolutely not the case. Despite being 2% of the
| population, Indians are way overrepresented in tech
| leadership positions (not just CEO/CTO). I recall in a
| meeting at a med size tech firm I worked at, the
| recruiting/HR department no longer considered Asians of any
| ethnicity a minority and lumped them in with white males.
| Rinzler89 wrote:
| _> recruiting/HR department no longer considered Asians
| of any ethnicity a minority and lumped them in with white
| males._
|
| Why does HR even need to keep track of ethnicities? Is
| this a US thing?
|
| Here in my EU country you're just employee/applicant
| #3215, that's it, nobody asks or enters your ethnicity
| anywhere to even be able to keep tabs on how many are of
| what ethnicity, since everyone is considered equal by
| default and judged exclusively on performance (in theory
| at least, in practice there are still biases, but
| tracking ethnicities won't fix that, since that's human
| nature).
|
| What you're saying would even be against the law here
| since then it opens the door to bias and potential
| discrimination.
| bee_rider wrote:
| > (in theory at least, in practice there are still
| biases, but tracking ethnicities won't fix that, since
| that's human nature)
|
| That's what we're trying to fix (or at least mitigate) in
| the US. You say it is just human nature, but we're a
| pretty diverse country, so we have a strong incentive to
| proactively try and see if we can make it work.
| red-iron-pine wrote:
| > the recruiting/HR department no longer considered
| Asians of any ethnicity a minority and lumped them in
| with white males.
|
| there was, IIRC, an infamous spat at a FAANG about that
| sien wrote:
| It's so weird.
|
| Why didn't big tech companies fight tooth and nail to get
| Asian recognised as a minority so they could then turn
| around and say look 'We employ minorities at a rate way
| higher than other companies' ?
| smugma wrote:
| They aren't "under-represented" minorities. They, at
| least in California, provide the breakdowns.
| kylehotchkiss wrote:
| The "upward trajectory" we're all so familiar with is not
| (yet) as big a part of their culture yet. (I believe this is
| changing... the chronically online young generation seem to
| be absorbing a lot more of international culture than their
| ancestors). The regulatory environment for any business is an
| absolute nightmare of hostile patchwork policies different in
| every city and state. When foreign companies come in, the
| government babus want to yell Imperialism! at every turn,
| which leads to 51/49 ventures being the way to go, which are
| overly bureaucratic.
|
| It brings me hope to see shark tank getting popular there.
| Not to say the hosts or the contestants have been as honest
| as they should be, but it shows a big shift in mindset since
| India's 80s/90s economic policies
| ErigmolCt wrote:
| The absurdly long waiting times
| raincom wrote:
| Produce kids on American soil. These kids can sponsor parents
| once a kid reaches 18 years of age.
| jl6 wrote:
| The worst HR case I ever got involved in was a semi-onshore
| (Indian) development team who couldn't deal with having a female
| (Indian) tech lead. She was eminently qualified for the role, but
| they would attempt to undermine her at every turn, speak over
| her, hold meetings without her, always going over her head...
| Caste did not appear to be a factor; it seemed to be good old
| fashioned sexism.
| ErigmolCt wrote:
| That situation is unfortunately all too familiar and it speaks
| to deeply ingrained gender biases that exist not only in some
| Indian cultural contexts but also in many other parts of the
| world
| kylehotchkiss wrote:
| Caste is not the driving factor in Indian culture.
| dartharva wrote:
| dang? Where are you?
|
| This comment section has gone to the gutter. Please flag this
| thread. This isn't even that significant of a news - we can come
| back to this when the court actually hands a ruling.
| dang wrote:
| I've done some moderating in here now, but if you want to alert
| us to something like this, it's necessary to email
| hn@ycombinator.com.
|
| If you see a post that ought to have been moderated but hasn't
| been, the likeliest explanation is that we didn't see it. You
| can help by flagging it or emailing us.
|
| https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
| Molitor5901 wrote:
| The only point of contention I have with this whole debate is the
| general premise that it's wrong to make citizens of a country
| redundant (lay them off) in order to replace with cheaper labor
| brought in from other countries.
|
| From an accounting standpoint perhaps it makes sense, but from
| the view of the workers, and the community, it just seems wrong.
| lupusreal wrote:
| Unionization could, at least in principle, offer a solution.
| Nefariouspurpus wrote:
| Although I'm not deeply familiar with the specifics of this
| particular case, it raises broader questions about the industry
| that specializes in outsourcing, particularly to countries like
| India. If outsourcing is a core part of a company's business
| model, isn't it inevitable that more jobs will continue to be
| funneled to countries like India, and, consequently, to Indian
| workers?
|
| While I understand this particular case involves allegations of
| discrimination within U.S. offices, the larger trend seems
| unavoidable. As companies prioritize cost-efficiency, it may no
| longer make economic sense for citizens of HCOL countries, to
| seek employment with such firms. Similarly, these companies are
| likely incentivized to constantly try and minimize the number
| of high-cost employees--whether they are Indians on H1B visas
| or American citizens--on their payroll.
|
| This raises a concern about whether the government should
| intervene to address this industry trend of outsourcing.
| However, if we look at what happened with manufacturing and
| China, one wonders if such intervention will ever come, or if
| the shift is already inevitable.
| hooverd wrote:
| Eh, cheap Indian outsourcing isn't viewed as a near-peer
| threat.
| Nefariouspurpus wrote:
| I understand but that is not what I meant. What I meant was
| it is an inevitable drift (for a certain type of work to
| get outsourced) that cannot be stemmed unless the
| government does something. I still have no clue if doing
| something about this type of outsourcing is even a good
| idea. But I was just wondering if this discrimination is
| inevitable if outsourcing continues...
| red-iron-pine wrote:
| definitely my experience dealing with them at F500s. Indian mafia
| running the IT org, and a PITA to get things out of them.
|
| personal favorite was that someone from network support ran a
| script that changed ownership of all of the docker containers and
| associated configs, outputs, and logs to root. we had pretty
| clear proof in the logs that a Cog support tech did it, and
| basically had to escalate to the CTO and get him to threaten a
| lawsuit to get them to fix it.
|
| Also watched caste bulling play out in real time in a cramped
| meeting room in the RDU Triangle, in NC. Wasn't clear what the
| strain was until later when a full-timer of Indian extraction
| explained it to me.
| bufferoverflow wrote:
| Yup. Currently working at a large multinational. Pretty much
| 90% of developers and managers are Indian. Very few Americans.
| Some Chinese and some Slavic.
|
| I have never seen such ratios in 20+ years of my career.
| AtlasBarfed wrote:
| The bean counters sure didn't care, this was blatantly obvious
| even two decades ago.
|
| I don't fault the outsourcing companies it's nothing different
| than what occurs with American consulting outsourcing before
| offshoring: get the deal signed, get the responsibilities
| transferred, and milk the cow.
|
| The anti nerd bias of american culture means that IT is less
| respected than even blue collar workers by management.
|
| The higher salaries of IT are begrudgingly given. I predict
| over the next two decades they will collapse to what typical
| engineers are paid: as in it's more lucrative to be a plumber
| skynr wrote:
| We have a high proportion of onshore on-site Indian employees
| who are absolutely awesome. However they've gone through the
| local company's recruitment process so will have been selected
| for fit.
|
| The experience with outsourced resources is significantly
| different.
|
| I build a good rapport with one who talked me through the
| politics and power plays behind the scenes at their midsize
| outsourcing arm. Just very different social values to Western
| orgs. Incredibly hierarchical with no value given to autonomy
| or independence. Those who want to do well and try really hard
| frequently get their helmets dented by over zealous managers.
|
| Also experienced - ex offshore very often have incredible cvs
| until you interview and there's no actual experience. Polling
| the above contact he mentioned that for some offshore orgs
| promotion is literally time in role, not competency based.
|
| My experience, your mileage may vary, and I reiterate those
| I've worked with on-site have been awesome, generous, funny and
| very supportive people.
| dang wrote:
| We changed the URL from
| https://twitter.com/USTechWorkers/status/1843744799607898260 to
| what looks like the article it points to.
|
| Submitters: " _Please submit the original source. If a post
| reports on something found on another site, submit the latter._ "
| - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2024-10-09 23:02 UTC)