[HN Gopher] Frozen human brain tissue was successfully revived f...
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Frozen human brain tissue was successfully revived for the first
time
Author : amichail
Score : 85 points
Date : 2024-05-18 17:41 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (bgr.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (bgr.com)
| idiotsecant wrote:
| Because 'lab grown self-organizing brain samples continue to grow
| after being frozen' is a little less appealing than the clickbait
| title
| Retric wrote:
| Small mammals up to the size of hamsters can successfully be
| cryogenically frozen and revived significantly later. So while
| the same thing working on small samples of human tissue is
| completely expected it's still useful research for organ
| transplants etc.
|
| All that cryogenic preservation that showed in science fiction
| is somewhat realistic even if we can't do it yet and it's
| probably going to require extensive surgery beforehand to
| enable rapid cooling.
| lisper wrote:
| > Small mammals up to the size of hamsters can successfully
| be cryogenically frozen and revived significantly later.
|
| Reference?
| sanxiyn wrote:
| https://doi.org/10.1098/rspb.1956.0054
|
| (Yes, it's the same James Lovelock.)
| lisper wrote:
| Thanks. (Those poor hamsters!)
| a-r-t wrote:
| From the article: "The researchers also applied their technique
| to three-millimeter cubes of brain tissue from a 9-month-old
| girl with epilepsy. The tissue maintained its pre-freezing
| structure and remained active in a laboratory culture for at
| least two weeks after being thawed."
| Waterluvian wrote:
| > and remained active in a laboratory culture for at least
| two weeks after being thawed
|
| I'm sure I don't fully understand the details but this kind
| of thing both excites and horrifies me when I ponder how much
| brain might be necessary to sustain the experience of
| consciousness.
| lallysingh wrote:
| Meh. If we want immorality we'll probably end up converting
| a brain scan to an LLM.
|
| Medically this could be great for preventing brain damage.
| Waterluvian wrote:
| At this point it feels like we'd required the resources
| of an entire planet to run a single full-fidelity virtual
| brain. Which leads to interesting science fiction
| premises.
| hateful wrote:
| Or one entire actual brain - if it can be done once by
| natural selection, it can be done more efficiently again
| by a designer.
|
| Time exists because the universe doesn't do calculations
| - the only way to see the outcome is to do the thing.
| See: The Three Body Problem
| ben_w wrote:
| Last I heard (I am not a brain scientist) we don't really
| know what fidelity we would need.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_uploading#/media/File:
| Who...
| wonderwonder wrote:
| I think OP means how do we know that the brain tissue
| that is being used in the experiment is not conscious.
|
| Here is a man that lived a normal life with 90% of his
| brain damaged, a large portion of that just completely
| missing.
|
| https://www.sciencealert.com/a-man-who-lives-
| without-90-of-h...
| scarmig wrote:
| Network pruning.
|
| In ANNs, pruning 90% of the weights without substantial
| loss isn't unheard of. I guess this may be analogous:
| continuous pruning and fine tuning over a lifetime.
| Though, is removing 90% of the brain more analogous to
| 90% of weights, or 90% of the rank?
| ben_w wrote:
| Sneaky paragraph at the bottom:
|
| > Update 3 Jan 2017: This man has a specific type of
| hydrocephalus known as chronic non-communicating
| hydrocephalus, which is where fluid slowly builds up in
| the brain. Rather than 90 percent of this man's brain
| being missing, it's more likely that it's simply been
| compressed into the thin layer you can see in the images
| above. We've corrected the story to reflect this.
| zamalek wrote:
| ANNs can't represent everything involved with a
| functioning brain, never mind a highly specific ANN
| architecture. Any consciousness or similar would need to
| arise via an independent mechanism.
| ben_w wrote:
| > Any consciousness or similar would need to arise via an
| independent mechanism.
|
| _Probably_ , but even then only due to there being a lot
| mechanisms and we don't know which of them is related to
| the subjective experience of existing that is the meaning
| of conscious I assume you're using here (there's
| something like 40 definitions of "consciousness").
|
| But because we don't really know where the capacity for
| an inner experience even is, it's _not impossible_ that
| even an LLM, which totally isn 't designed with the goal
| of having it, _might_ nevertheless have it.
|
| (I really hope they don't, I statistically suspect they
| don't, I just can't rule it out).
| lisper wrote:
| My personal opinion is that it's not just about brain
| quantity. I think being embedded in an environment is
| necessary for consciousness. My argument is that there is
| no such thing as unqualified consciousness -- you have to
| be conscious _of something_. You 're not born aware of
| yourself, you spend the first few years of your life
| figuring out that you are embedded in this thing called a
| human body that, with considerable practice, you can
| exercise more-or-less direct control over. After more years
| you figure out that your body is further embedded in a
| world full of other things that you have only indirect (at
| best) control over, or no control at all. Only after all
| that can you draw a line between you and not-you and become
| aware of "your" existence.
| osigurdson wrote:
| The brain is not constant during this process however. It
| is developing at the same time.
| lisper wrote:
| Yes, well, that is one of the many reasons I hedged with
| "My personal opinion is..."
| velcrovan wrote:
| Even the actual entire brain you have right now can't
| sustain the experience of consciousness during sleep, or
| while under the influence of sedatives, or during times of
| sudden trauma.
| FireInsight wrote:
| I just imagined dying and then noticing myself thinking again but
| without any sensory inputs; freaky stuff.
| baxtr wrote:
| I recommend you google sleep paralysis. I experienced it a
| couple of times when I was younger. Really scary.
| Waterluvian wrote:
| I had it once and it was the most terrifying experience of my
| life.
| deadbabe wrote:
| Can you guys elaborate? Do you feel like you're some brain
| in a vat somewhere when this happens?
| Waterluvian wrote:
| I could see but I couldn't move any muscles. It felt like
| five minutes but was probably less. It happened in an
| afternoon nap which is something I never did.
|
| I was screaming internally for my girlfriend to notice
| me. I thought I was suddenly a quadriplegic or something
| and was panicking. Eventually my girlfriend noticed (she
| later said she noticed my deep, heavy breathing) and
| shook me and being shaken pulled me immediately out of
| it.
| lisper wrote:
| > I could see
|
| How do you know that you weren't simply dreaming?
| chrisnight wrote:
| REM atonia, which is the paralysis that sleep paralysis
| comes from/uses, paralyzes the majority of your body.
| However, one organ it doesn't paralyze is your eyes,
| hence people experiencing it generally open their eyes as
| they try to escape it. However, even with your eyes open,
| you can experience dream-like hallucinations overlayed
| ontop your view of reality, hence people thinking they
| see other entities in their bedrooms, etc. It's
| _possible_ that it was a dream, but it's completely
| possible it wasn't, so if a person claims they were
| awake, then in all likelyhood they were.
| lisper wrote:
| Well, there's an objective test: did they see something
| that actually happened out in the world during the
| episode that could be verified later?
| Waterluvian wrote:
| When it happened the Monorail episode of the Simpsons was
| on. And it continued to be on when I was shaken out of it
| because my girlfriend suggested we just watch the rest to
| get my mind off it.
|
| It was also just a very vivid experience. I felt
| completely awake. Just unable to do a thing.
| lisper wrote:
| Thanks.
| luxpir wrote:
| This has happened often enough to me that I am sometimes
| now aware of it when it's happening, occasionally, and
| can ride it out. I've literally "invited" more terror to
| try to end it quicker before. As in, "yeah yeah , get it
| over with, bring it on". I haven't questioned the
| normality of this until now, amusingly.
|
| It normally happens when I sleep on my back. I have been
| known to make an attempt at a scream during the event.
| I'm normally being attacked at speed, by people or things
| that don't really have boundaries. And of course I can't
| fight back, hence the paralysis.
|
| For the scream, I think I have heard it, but because of
| the paralysis it ends up like a loud exhale with some
| high notes in it. I couldn't describe it as a roar. More
| of a pitiful gurgle.
|
| It is sometimes made worse by my sleeping partner trying
| to wake me clumsily, which momentarily heightens the
| terror, especially if my face is being nudged or jabs to
| the ribs.
|
| So not particularly fun, literally facing my demons, but
| also probably some of the best VR you're likely to
| experience.
|
| For background, I'm a generally positive and optimistic
| person, rational with zero belief in the supernatural,
| despite being raised with it. Oh god I'm cursed... I kid,
| but who knows from where these intrusive dreams
| originate. I do practice martial arts, but this predates
| that. I have had an interest in light combat since
| childhood, despite pacifism and fear being more of a
| reflection of my personality. It was probably more of an
| 80s thing, expecting violence and quicksand at any
| moment.
|
| That's about it really, totally normal to me at this
| point. It's probably nothing.
|
| EDIT: For the record, it feels like the paralysis
| triggers the dream, not the dream triggering the
| paralysis. Something to do with approaching a waking
| state in the brain but not the body. Cue the terror and
| internal screams for help.
| blegr wrote:
| Some people feel some kind of person/presence close to
| them, that's how it happened to me. This [1] weirdly
| makes sense.
|
| It felt kind of like those dreams where you can't move.
| Except you've woken up, I could see the correct room and
| position I was in. It tends to come with fear and doesn't
| last long.
|
| Never happened when I slept on my side or front. I almost
| never sleep on my back now. Also, chronic stress could
| have been a trigger.
|
| [1] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Henry_Fuseli_
| (1741-1...
| throwaway5557c wrote:
| I have had similar experiences a few times. One time it was
| extremely scary. I could not move, and I experienced
| someone whispering something unintelligible in my ear.
| nuancebydefault wrote:
| I remember that when I was around 8 or so, it happened
| several times in the morning while waking up, that I saw
| someone entering the bedroom while I was not able to speak or
| move. It was terrifying. It must have been imagination, since
| nobody appeared to have noticed anything unusual.
|
| Is there a name for such event?
| luxpir wrote:
| There are (creepy) reports from the middle ages of figures
| sitting on sleepers' chests, legs, moving towards them etc.
|
| It's clearly a biological phenomenon of some description.
| I've never really looked into it, despite experiencing it
| often. Related my general take on it below.
| krapp wrote:
| These are common symptoms of sleep paralysis -
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis
| Teever wrote:
| A few years ago I became interested in the cryonics movement.
|
| What I find most interesting about it aren't the kooks and
| weirdos that are into cryonics, but the visceral reaction that
| your average Joe has to the idea.
|
| The average opinion about cryonics seems to range from 'That is
| impossible' to 'why would you want that?'. But if you ask that
| same average Joe about a cure for cancer they're likely to say
| that it's been done and the rich just horde it for themselves.
|
| It's weird that they don't see things like cures for cancer,
| regrowing organs, age slowing drugs etc... as all part of a
| pathway to the same thing which is a technological solution to
| many causes of aging and death.
|
| Unlocking the ability to grow and store organs or even just store
| donated organs cryogenically is highly desirable from an economic
| standpoint has it frees up so many resources (1pc of US GDP is
| spent on dialysis alone) so if there's a technological means to
| do it we're going to find a way sooner or later.
|
| And once we've found a way to freeze and revive large parts of
| the body it's just a gruesome divide and conquer from there...
| spondylosaurus wrote:
| I did read an interesting thing recently (can't remember where
| unfortunately) about ongoing strides in the transport and
| preservation of donor organs. If we crack the code to putting a
| kidney in ice, you can get it across the country to its new
| owner instead of crossing your fingers that someone local needs
| one and is a recipient match.
| lttlrck wrote:
| By my calculations 0.078% of GDP is spent on dialysis. Still
| crazy looking at the raw numbers.
|
| $20billion/$25.4trillion
|
| https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/gdp
|
| https://www.propublica.org/article/in-dialysis-life-saving-c...
| exe34 wrote:
| imagine a life where a contract between you and a soulless
| corporation or religious order forbids you from dying, and no
| matter how many times you try to escape, they bring you back
| for untold miseries.
| BriggyDwiggs42 wrote:
| I mean, sounds like a skill issue to me
| RajT88 wrote:
| Read those EULA's!
| shrubble wrote:
| "We need you for long term maintenance of our mainframe's
| COBOL code base; in return we pay you very well, but when we
| say long-term, we really mean it."
| Qem wrote:
| You must watch the movie Moon (2009). I strongly recommend.
| See https://m.imdb.com/title/tt1182345/
| wonderwonder wrote:
| Essentially a Ghola in the dune universe
| tempaccount420 wrote:
| Your favorite sci-fi plot is not a realistic prediction of
| the future.
| RecycledEle wrote:
| Read "We are legion. We are Bob." It includes that plot.
|
| There is alao the bit about a revived cryo-guy being a
| computer program running an exterminator company. Then he
| decides most teenagers at the mall need to be exterminated.
| ben_w wrote:
| That wasn't a religious order _forbidding him from dying_ ,
| that was rot13 n eryvtvbhf beqre gung jnf va na nezf enpr
| jvgu bgure pbhagevrf gung gbbx gurve bja nccebnpu gb NV naq
| whfg svtherq gur cebgntbavfg'f oenva jnf n tbbq fubegphg.
| wiseowise wrote:
| Imagine living happy, fulfilling endless life.
| _xerces_ wrote:
| Reminds me about an article on ECMO machines I read where they
| are researching hooking them up to single organs and not just
| people. If you can keep the organ alive for some time it opens
| the possibility of making transplants easier, or even removing
| someone's diseased liver, say and treating it outside the body
| then putting it back a few weeks later.
| mbil wrote:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40214525
| stenl wrote:
| Freezing and thawing organoids is not new, it's fairly routine.
| The frozen piece of brain from an epilepsy patient doesn't retain
| "normal function". There is no evidence in the paper that it
| integrates into neuronal circuits (this was not even tested), or
| supports anything like normal neuronal firing. The cells are
| alive, yes, and likely highly abnormally perturbed.
| dcist wrote:
| Big news for Ted Williams
| platz wrote:
| are you sure
| https://www.espn.com/boston/mlb/news/story?id=4524957
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