[HN Gopher] Breathwork supports emergence of altered states of c...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Breathwork supports emergence of altered states of consciousness
        
       Author : rendx
       Score  : 217 points
       Date   : 2024-05-08 19:54 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.researchsquare.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.researchsquare.com)
        
       | colechristensen wrote:
       | I wonder what other effects this has on the body. The signaling
       | around CO2 levels does a lot to cellular respiration everywhere,
       | not just the brain (think krebs cycle, etc).
        
         | smeej wrote:
         | There's a product out, Freespira, that does breath work
         | training monitored by a nasal cannula, to help people who
         | experience panic attacks. The theory is that such people are
         | chronic hyperventilators, so their blood CO2 is too low for the
         | parasympathetic nervous system to operate correctly.
         | 
         | It didn't end up being a good fit for me, but if a person's
         | PTSD comes from discrete events rather than a continually
         | unsafe environment in early childhood, I think they'd have a
         | better experience. (My parasympathetic nervous system never
         | learned how to operate correctly, but if someone else's did and
         | its function got interrupted later, I think their experience
         | would be different.)
        
           | rendx wrote:
           | Interesting! Thanks for the pointer.
        
           | plaguuuuuu wrote:
           | Strange side note. I've tried n-acetylcysteine as a
           | supplement/medication, the weirdest thing about it is that I
           | felt like I needed to breathe less often. And like I was
           | breathing manually - which you are also doing now, ha.
           | 
           | I wonder if it helps with panic attacks.
        
             | AnthonBerg wrote:
             | This makes immediate sense to me after having stumbled upon
             | some of the academic literature on N-acetylcysteine.
             | 
             | There are results on it being anti-anxiety, yes.
             | 
             | Tons and tons of results; Wide scope. Pulmonary and
             | neurobiological.
             | 
             | The wildest paper imo: "N-acetyl cysteine reverses bio-
             | behavioural changes induced by prenatal inflammation,
             | adolescent methamphetamine exposure and combined
             | challenges" - https://doi.org/10.1007/s00213-017-4776-5
             | 
             | It's just an... :exploding-head: paper.
             | 
             | There are also studies that check if humans fall into or
             | out of various psychiatric disorder diagnostic criteria.
             | Yes, NAC is anti-anxiety.
             | 
             | And! NAC is clearly and obviously mucolytic. Slime-
             | dissolving. Its use as prescription and OTC medicine in my
             | country is--I think, so far--exclusively as a lung-slime
             | dissolver to help people breathe better.
        
               | ajb wrote:
               | It's a very interesting paper. However, it's in rats, so
               | among other things the timescale is very compressed
               | compared to humans: we are taking about three NAC
               | reversing changes 1-2 months later
        
               | AnthonBerg wrote:
               | Ah, indeed, I would like to add that I'd never expect
               | anything fully "the same" to happen in us. Nonetheless,
               | it does work!, tons of more studies out there.
               | 
               | It's wild to me that this substance--sold OTC as a
               | mucolytic!--can have an impact like that in an animal
               | model, and the molecular biology mechanisms of how it
               | happens that the study shows are... well, yes,
               | :exploding-head:
        
       | mjklin wrote:
       | Ross and Carrie covered this on their podcast back in 2017, they
       | had out of body experiences I believe. Link:
       | https://ohnopodcast.com/investigations/2017/10/21/ross-and-c...
        
       | rqtwteye wrote:
       | Holotropics has been around for quite a while and some yoga
       | pranayamas also can lead to altered states. I have to admit I
       | find mushrooms easier to deal with.
        
         | hackernewds wrote:
         | An ascetic will tell you that a purer experience of spiritual
         | connection is something you can control and remember
         | afterwards.
        
           | foobiekr wrote:
           | You remember mushrooms after.
        
           | Traubenfuchs wrote:
           | Ahhh yes, the bespoke, organic, pesticide free high of the
           | true people. Why struggle when 10-20EUR worth of ketamine
           | will make you glide through impossible (un)existence for an
           | hour or so.
           | 
           | Elitism and snobbism in spirituality and meditation circles
           | is real!
        
             | FrustratedMonky wrote:
             | Spiritual Elitism Aside.
             | 
             | One method is adjusting CO2/O2 levels. And if Yoga, you are
             | moving and there are body/mind connections, even weight
             | lifters can experience this. Even just stretching.
             | 
             | Versus laying on the couch on drugs.
             | 
             | Psychedelic's do "something", but not the "same thing".
        
           | AstralStorm wrote:
           | Remember what, the tingling mess and neuronal misfires of
           | endogenous DMT release experience?
        
           | rqtwteye wrote:
           | There is a always a purer version of any experience. This
           | sounds a little elitist.
        
       | m3kw9 wrote:
       | What about LSD
        
       | MrLeap wrote:
       | Is circular breath work just hyper ventilating?
        
         | notnaut wrote:
         | Yep. Feels good man.
         | 
         | Same as all the psychs.
         | 
         | And altered perspective can make you wiser.
        
         | yencabulator wrote:
         | But hyperventilating sounds scientific and reductive circles
         | are mystical and sell well! And we gotta separate _our_ ancient
         | shamanic yogi breathing school from those damn box breathing
         | gurus!
        
       | suroot wrote:
       | My buddy goes into schizophrenia episodes every time he goes for
       | a long run. Any ideas?
        
         | DANmode wrote:
         | Acute toxicity due to distribution of accumulated toxin (of
         | some kind) by the violent action of running.
        
           | rustcleaner wrote:
           | Probably this House M.D. -tier answer.
        
             | fredoliveira wrote:
             | It can't be House M.D. because the diagnostic isn't lupus.
        
         | MrLeap wrote:
         | Your buddy ought to see a healthcare professional, I'm just
         | some guy on the internet.
         | 
         | That said: here's a description of prodromal schizophrenia.
         | Your description reads like category #2 to me.
         | 
         | "Prodrome phase can also be categorized in three different
         | ways:                   Category 1 means the patient should
         | have at least one of the following symptoms: False beliefs that
         | random events in the world directly relate to them, odd
         | beliefs, or magical thinking; visual disturbance; odd thinking
         | and speech; paranoid ideation; and odd behavior or appearance.
         | Category 2 includes patients who have experienced psychotic
         | symptoms that come and go, which have spontaneously resolved
         | within a week.         Category 3 includes a combination of
         | genetic risk (i.e., being the first-degree relative of an
         | individual with a diagnosis of schizophrenia) with substantial
         | changes in personal daily functioning in the previous year. "
         | 
         | https://www.verywellhealth.com/prodromal-schizophrenia-51942...
        
         | 121789 wrote:
         | I believe running, especially long runs will cause changes in
         | brain chemistry. Rapid increases in norepinephrine, GABA, and
         | serotonin. I wonder if that sudden release triggers something.
         | Same mechanism as a runner's high
        
           | swader999 wrote:
           | @goggins would agree
        
         | francisofascii wrote:
         | Interesting. It is common for marathon runners to experience
         | cognitive impairment, delusions, and hallucinations. Does this
         | occur late in the run? Is heat, altitude, or lack of fueling a
         | factor?
        
       | ergonaught wrote:
       | It isn't new, even for the academic community, that modulating
       | CO2 levels via breathing alters consciousness.
       | 
       | Some of these sound more like advertisements.
        
         | khimaros wrote:
         | if this topic interests you, check out this interview with Dr.
         | Jack Feldman: https://hubermanlab.com/dr-jack-feldman-
         | breathing-for-mental... -- i found the section about the
         | effects of periodic hypoxia without retaining CO2 quite
         | fascinating.
        
       | aunty_helen wrote:
       | I've done a session of holotropic breathwork before. It was a
       | surprisingly strong experience.
       | 
       | 25 minutes of rapid deepish breathing while listening to music. I
       | was doing it as part of a group session and funnily it was
       | conducted via zoom.
       | 
       | After the first 10, it becomes easy to keep the breathing pace.
       | Moderately deep hallucinations, sweating a _lot_ on the bed. The
       | weirdest part was that my face wanted to screw up in contortions.
       | I felt my lips tight and couldn't control my facial muscles until
       | they hurt. I lost track of time and the session felt like it
       | ended quickly.
       | 
       | Afterwards there was a positivity mindset like a mild mushroom
       | afterglow. I would probably do it again.
        
         | simple10 wrote:
         | Yes! Holotropic is crazy strong. I remember having to sign a
         | waiver that was akin to a skydiving waiver before doing
         | holotropic breathwork session online. Highly recommended if you
         | feel inclined to try it.
        
         | adastra22 wrote:
         | That sounds like your body telling you not to do it.
        
         | pharrington wrote:
         | It sounds like you experienced oxygen deprivation.
        
           | hackernewds wrote:
           | oxygen deprivation is not euphoric. shouldn't be so
           | flippantly reductive
        
             | huygens6363 wrote:
             | I thought it was common knowledge that it is in fact
             | euphoric. Happy to be told I'm wrong though.
             | 
             | (Think of nitrous oxide and .. the thing with asphyxiation
             | and a certain pleasurable activity)
        
               | karmakurtisaani wrote:
               | Definitely mildly euphoric and relaxing. Source: have
               | been choked out in BJJ training a few times. Woke up
               | happy and relaxed every time.
        
               | aeonik wrote:
               | It is common knowledge. Kids play the choking game,
               | people die from autoerotic asphyxiation, and folks who
               | fly or dive are trained to recognize the symptoms as
               | well.
               | 
               | The burning feeling that you get when your hold your
               | breath is a build up of CO2, not a lack of O2.
               | 
               | PDF warning: https://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/pilotsafet
               | ybrochures/media...
        
           | jobs_throwaway wrote:
           | how do you suppose he got oxygen deprivation by breathing
           | deeply?
        
             | retrac wrote:
             | The hypoxia/suffocation instinct, the irresistible urge to
             | breathe, is caused by carbon dioxide levels in the blood.
             | The nervous system has no means of directly detecting
             | oxygen, or its absence. If you walk into a room of pure
             | nitrogen there is almost no warning. The CO2 levels remain
             | low, everything is fine while all your oxygen is rapidly
             | dumped to the oxygen-free air - two deep breaths gets rid
             | of most of it. Another 15 seconds after that you are dizzy,
             | another 15 to 45 after that you are unconscious. Terrible
             | design, IMHO, but presumably not a common situation in the
             | ancient environment.
             | 
             | If you hyperventilate, it drives out the carbonic acid and
             | CO2 in the body. But the blood is normally already near
             | saturation for oxygen. This unusually low level of CO2
             | allows you to hold your breath much longer by suppressing
             | the suffocation response, sometimes to the point of
             | unconsciousness. You don't realize you should breathe. You
             | feel fine, just a little lighthea... This is why you should
             | never hyperventilate before diving under water.
        
             | Aerbil313 wrote:
             | You don't get more oxygen by breathing more. When you
             | breath more the CO2 is expelled from your blood and
             | hemoglobin cannot efficiently collect and transmit O2 in
             | the absence of some specific amount of CO2. In fact most
             | people overbreathe, and they should be breathing less to be
             | optimally oxygenized.
             | 
             | See https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30252284/
             | 
             | The book _Breath: The New Science of a Lost Art_ details
             | the journey of James Nestor as he goes over all these
             | different methods and exercises, it 's the #1 book I
             | recommend to everyone. The number one certain conclusion to
             | take home from the book that'll literally extend your
             | lifespan significantly: Don't mouthbreathe, never ever.
        
         | teh_infallible wrote:
         | It also leaves you in a very suggestive state. I did several
         | sessions with a "rebirther" years ago, basically holotropic
         | breath work. I decided I didn't really need it, and I went in
         | my last few sessions determined to quit, but at the end of the
         | session, the practitioner always managed to convince me I
         | needed another session. I eventually broke it off with him over
         | the phone.
        
         | nprateem wrote:
         | I've heard about people awakening their kundalini with that. It
         | fucked them for years since they had no clue what was
         | happening, and no preparation or support.
        
           | omnimus wrote:
           | What changes with oneself when they awaken their kundalini?
        
             | temp0826 wrote:
             | Extraordinary sensitivity, internally and externally. It's
             | considered a very advanced practice because without a
             | trained mind it is extremely jarring, will induce anxiety
             | and maybe make you start thinking that you have psychic
             | abilities (or schizophrenia).
        
           | bmacho wrote:
           | You mean someone awakened their kundalini, wasn't aware of
           | it, and it took years for them to figure it out? Can you
           | describe the symptoms?
        
             | nprateem wrote:
             | No, they were very aware of it. Huge energy surges,
             | hallucinations, emotions go haywire, etc. It can take years
             | to stabilise if you don't know what you're doing, and
             | apparently you can easily question your sanity (even if you
             | know what to expect - if you have no guide you might really
             | struggle with understanding the process).
             | 
             | One guy would nearly pass out every time he got an
             | erection, some people have a phase of not being able to eat
             | anything but yoghurt or milk, etc. Huge changes, like a
             | second puberty.
        
         | swader999 wrote:
         | It can be deeply emotional for some.
        
       | swayvil wrote:
       | I think the ancient yoga wizards of yore called that "Pranayama".
        
       | bschmidt1 wrote:
       | Combination of excess oxygen and rhythmic/yogic type trance?
        
       | unrealp wrote:
       | Sounds counter intuitive but breathwork reduces o2 to brain.
       | Basically due to reduced co2, blood vessels in the brain
       | constrict.
       | 
       | Having said that, I worked with a breathwork teacher for a while,
       | creating narrative for the session, for mental imagery and
       | guidance. It also had music as a backdrop. Fun times. And it was
       | definitely altered state for a lot of people.
        
         | ay wrote:
         | Any pointers to read more ?
         | 
         | My GP friends only pointed me to respiratory alcalosis, which
         | doesn't appear to be about O2 levels at all - it's the pH being
         | out of the narrow "acceptable" band (too low in the case of
         | hyperventilation) appeared to cause a lot of effect.
        
           | unrealp wrote:
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperventilation - This leads
           | to hypocapnia, a reduced concentration of carbon dioxide
           | dissolved in the blood.
           | 
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocapnia - Acute hypocapnia
           | causes hypocapnic alkalosis, which causes cerebral
           | vasoconstriction leading to cerebral hypoxia
           | 
           | Though not acute, you can see the effects very easily. Within
           | couple of minutes of deep breathing we could create
           | peripheral numbing and tingling effect. (yoga folk say you
           | are feeling energy moving though body and that kind of stuff
           | haha)
        
         | michael-ax wrote:
         | EXACTLY! That's why you breathe into a paper-bag (or smoke) to
         | increase CO2 so that the filters open and you get to a point
         | where you feel O2 tingles all over your brain. This is
         | extremely powerful; I practiced that and underwater held-breath
         | swimming and hanging out underwater for a long time to obtain
         | permanent changes that have made me far more effective. Based
         | on work first published by W.Wenger out of a Maryland Think-
         | tank some 50? years ago.
        
           | thatcat wrote:
           | What kind of changes?
        
             | rybosworld wrote:
             | I think they are referring to this:
             | https://winwenger.com/books/books-online/two-guaranteed-
             | ways...
             | 
             | "For accumulating 20 hours of held-breath underwater
             | swimming within 3 weeks from start to finish- 10 or more
             | points I.Q. gain; better span of attention; better span of
             | awareness; better awareness of the interrelatedness of
             | things and of ideas and/or perceptions; finding yourself
             | way better at winning arguments or disputes!"
             | 
             | It should go without saying this is nonsense.
        
               | grugagag wrote:
               | This is probably nonsense for a healthy person but for
               | someone who doesn't get enough o2 it probably has the
               | same benefits of a person who does.
        
               | rybosworld wrote:
               | That's the kind of inference that allows these claims to
               | proliferate.
               | 
               | This article makes a lot of claims about I.Q. scores
               | before and after holding breath (specifically underwater,
               | for some reason), but there are no links to studies, no
               | mention of who or how many people participated, etc.
               | 
               | This is the definition of a baseless claim.
        
               | algorias wrote:
               | Not defending the overall claim, but there's a plausible
               | reason why being underwater matters: the mammalian diving
               | reflex. Holding your breath on land is not the same.
        
               | relaxing wrote:
               | That too is the kind of inference that allows these
               | claims to proliferate.
        
               | tapotatonumber9 wrote:
               | Perhaps being under water makes it harder to "cheat".
        
           | Etherlord87 wrote:
           | So wim hof method, by breathing a lot, deprives you of
           | oxygen, reducing brain functionality and therefore giving you
           | a drug-like pleasure, whereas recycling air in a bag ends up
           | giving you more oxygen and increasing brain efficiency? May
           | sound like sarcasm, but honestly, do I need a diving gear to
           | test it on myself or is a paper bag enough?
        
         | Taikonerd wrote:
         | Was the narrative something like, "you're on a mountaintop. You
         | look around and see..." Or was it more abstract than that?
        
       | ilaksh wrote:
       | Just the word "breathwork" is obnoxious to me. I suppose it's
       | interesting that if you hyperventilate enough you can reduce
       | oxygen in your brain to the point where you hallucinate. And that
       | is probably safer than taking psychedelics.
       | 
       | But the idea that you would do that routinely seems obviously
       | stupid to me. I think if you keep doing it for a number of years
       | then you could damage your brain. My understanding is that your
       | brain needs oxygen.
        
         | gardnr wrote:
         | Got that one backwards:
         | 
         | > Hyperventilation is irregular breathing that occurs when the
         | rate or tidal volume of breathing eliminates more carbon
         | dioxide than the body can produce.
         | 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperventilation
        
           | yorwba wrote:
           | Removing carbon dioxide via your lungs doesn't mean your
           | brain gets more oxygen. The "altered states of consciousness"
           | are symptoms of oxygen deprivation which can be induced in
           | other ways, but maybe hyperventilation is a particularly fun
           | way to do it.
        
           | UniverseHacker wrote:
           | They were correct. Hemoglobin needs CO2 to release oxygen. If
           | you are low on CO2 your tissues become oxygen deprived.
        
         | andybak wrote:
         | It seems obvious to me that the things you find obviously
         | stupid, obviously aren't.
        
         | codr7 wrote:
         | I take it you haven't put a lot of effort into examining the
         | practice? Pranayama is a pretty comprehensive system, and it
         | has survived to this day for good reasons.
        
           | adrianN wrote:
           | ,,It'sa comprehensive system that survived for hundreds of
           | years" is true for a lot of woo woo, eg astrology.
        
       | EMM_386 wrote:
       | I've done breathwork sessions before.
       | 
       | It felt strange, yes you can midly hallucinate and feel
       | "otherworldly" but I always left thinking "ok, I just
       | hyperventilated for 20 minutes ... this is exatly how I'd expect
       | to feel".
       | 
       | And now we have a scientific study that proves it.
       | 
       | It seemed pretty obvious to me.
        
         | wouldbecouldbe wrote:
         | That's a very technologist know it all answer.
         | 
         | As if we fully understand, brain, conciousness, biology, body &
         | spiritual experiences fully. There is so much to learn.
         | 
         | The questions for instance arises how does this connect to
         | emotional & spiritual experiences that derive from those
         | practices.
         | 
         | It's the same with psychedelics, they are chemically induced
         | but often lead to meaningful experiences due a shift in the way
         | we experience reality & conciousness.
         | 
         | Is it a peak into a wider experience of the world that makes us
         | realize the world as we experience it, might not be as real as
         | we think it is? Who knows, so many interesting questions &
         | options.
        
           | bowsamic wrote:
           | Kant already explained this in the mind of all "technologist
           | know it all" though
        
           | EMM_386 wrote:
           | The funny thing is I spend my free time learning as much as I
           | can about consciousness, alterered states of consciousness,
           | the nature of reality, spirtual experiences, all that stuff.
           | 
           | That's how I ended up in a breathwork session.
           | 
           | But I still live in the universe, and the universe follows
           | rules.
           | 
           | In this case, my body's CO2/Oxygen imbalance was out of
           | whack, and I probably should have started breathing into a
           | paper bag.
           | 
           | Consciousness is cool and all, but doing solid breathwork for
           | over 20 minutes will upset the balance of molecules impotrant
           | to a functioning consciousness. So while you may feel
           | yourself soaring toward another dimension, it's your brain
           | screaming for oxygen.
           | 
           | My 2 cents.
        
       | Argonaut998 wrote:
       | FYI: Not all breath-work is hyperventilating.
        
         | unrealp wrote:
         | The study that has been mentioned talks about Holotropic
         | Breathwork and Consciously-Connected breathwork are. I have
         | worked with CCB.
        
       | barrenko wrote:
       | This is opening callback to birth trauma.
        
       | FrustratedMonky wrote:
       | There are a lot of breathing methods out there, like this, and
       | Wim Hof. Is there any side by side comparisons.
       | 
       | Side by Side Down to exact method. So many breaths, long, short,
       | lengths, times.
       | 
       | I'd really like to know if it all boils down to just O2/CO2
       | balance, and each method just ends up with a different ratio.
        
       | elif wrote:
       | As wim would say, get high on your own supply.
       | 
       | But in seriousness hyperoxia is mildly psychedelic, especially
       | when you are in a state (athletic, euphoric, love etc) which
       | naturally produces high levels of serotonin, oxytocin, dopamine,
       | etc.
       | 
       | When I was backpacking for 7 months with my wife, I would climb
       | mountains as fast as I could and wait for her at the tops. I
       | started doing wim hof while waiting and it was deeply rewarding
        
         | grugagag wrote:
         | How exactly do you 'do' wim hof and for how long?
        
           | mettamage wrote:
           | If you're open to it, I can teach you. My email is in my
           | profile
        
           | thomascgalvin wrote:
           | The Wim Hof method is explained here:
           | 
           | https://www.wimhofmethod.com/breathing-exercises
        
           | nico wrote:
           | Here's a guided video by Wim Hof, you can just listen to it
           | while you lay down and follow along:
           | 
           | https://youtu.be/0BNejY1e9ik?feature=shared
        
         | boringg wrote:
         | To add to this - if you get buried in an avalanche you likely
         | go hypoxic. Many people pulled out sometimes in the moment
         | react negatively to be saved as they are pulled out of a
         | euphoric state even though they are literally getting saved
         | from death.
        
         | swader999 wrote:
         | Just don't do Wim Hof type breathing while driving, near water
         | or risk of fall is high. You can pass out or faint easily if
         | you do it a little wrong.
        
         | redblacktree wrote:
         | Thank you for introducing me to this. Having done just one
         | round, the effects are reminiscent of nitrous oxide. Very
         | interesting indeed! As you suggest, I think I'll try this again
         | after a bout of vigorous exercise.
        
           | rufugee wrote:
           | What specifically did you try? The wim hof breathing method
           | after strenuous exercise?
        
             | redblacktree wrote:
             | Wim hof, no exercise. (but will do so later, after my
             | normal workout routine)
             | 
             | As others in the thread have said, this may not be any
             | better for my health than N2O, but it's still interesting
             | nonetheless. Probably not something for every day.
        
         | idontwantthis wrote:
         | Did you feel like it was "good" for you in any way? I've
         | experienced the euphoria and I definitely compare it to nitrous
         | oxide, in that it is pleasurable, fleeting and unfulfilling.
         | Plus I sometimes ended up with a persistent headache.
         | 
         | It made me feel better temporarily in a time of distress, but
         | like any drug, it only numbed me and did nothing to improve my
         | outlook.
        
         | 121789 wrote:
         | Wim hof feels great, but I always kinda feel like I'm doing
         | something mildly unhealthy when I do it
        
       | malloryerik wrote:
       | I've read of a credible person who says they use breathwork of
       | some kind to help enter a state of flow. Does anyone here know if
       | this sounds right? If so, how would one learn? Books? Courses?
       | Coaches? Also, knowing nothing about it I'd assumed the
       | breathwork would be like mindfulness or meditative breathing, but
       | is this wrong? It might be something closer to hyperventilating?
        
         | mtalantikite wrote:
         | The article mentioned Holotropic Breathwork, which is a method
         | Stanislav Grof came up with after no longer being able to use
         | LSD for his research in the 1960s. I haven't taken a course in
         | it, but it does seem similar to Wim Hof's technique, which you
         | can follow along an intro of on his YouTube [1].
         | 
         | All of it is pretty similar to various pranayama techniques
         | that have existed in the yogas for thousands of years though.
         | Iyengar's Light on Pranayama is a good resource for the various
         | practices [2]. While Wim Hof and Holotropic Breathwork are
         | slightly different, the closest to them from the yogas would
         | maybe be bhastrika pranayam (and here's a random guy on YouTube
         | that comes up when googling it -- just skimming it and it looks
         | basically like what I was taught [3]).
         | 
         | Edit: I realized I didn't answer your question regarding how
         | pranayama/breathwork compares to meditation. It's different
         | than meditation (dhyana or jhana), but it's complimentary and
         | there are elements that are similar. For instance, during
         | pranayama practice you'll often have breath holds/retentions
         | and during that time you'll be instructed to bring your
         | awareness to something (a point on your body, on the awareness
         | itself, etc). This is generally what you'd do in formal
         | meditation practice too, but in this case it's for a much
         | shorter period of time (the length of the breath hold). So in a
         | way it gets you used to working with your awareness, to bring
         | it internal for short periods of time many times. Many people
         | will practice pranayama before beginning formal seated
         | meditation practice. I personally use nadi shodhana before
         | meditation practice, and more vigorous pranayamas like
         | kapalbhati and bhastrika before/during/after asana practice.
         | They're also good to do in the middle of the day when you need
         | a bit of a reset.
         | 
         | [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tybOi4hjZFQ
         | 
         | [2] https://archive.org/details/iyengar-bks-light-on-
         | pranayama-o...
         | 
         | [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I578H4VoZiY
        
           | babycheetahbite wrote:
           | Thank you very much for this.
        
             | nprateem wrote:
             | The best book bar none that I've ever found on pranayama is
             | Pranayama by Gregor Maehle
        
           | idontwantthis wrote:
           | How were you introduced to all of this? I'd love to learn to
           | practice original yoga/meditation.
        
             | mtalantikite wrote:
             | Oh wow, how to answer succinctly -- it's been a long,
             | meandering path! I'll try my best. While I'd say I first
             | learned about meditation from my music practice as a child,
             | my first formal introduction to meditation was through
             | Thanissaro Bhikkhu [1] who a few of my friends practiced
             | with in college (and later ordained as monks with). I later
             | came to Mahayana Buddhism through Suzuki [2] and Thich Nhat
             | Hanh [3], and then settled into a Vajrayana practice -- I'd
             | suggest Mingyur Rinpoche's Joy of Living course for an
             | intro to Vajrayana [4].
             | 
             | For yoga practice I happened to one day wander into the
             | closest yoga studio to my house here in Brooklyn, which
             | coincidentally happened to be one of the best yoga schools
             | in the city at the time. The owner [5] was exceptionally
             | challenging, all his teachers were the best around, and he
             | really pushed everyone to expand their limits, it was a
             | great environment to learn in. I was going at least 5x per
             | week for a few years. It can be hard to find a yoga school,
             | as most these days are just gym classes, and very few are
             | going to teach pranayama, kriyas, meditation, etc. If I'm
             | in a new place and am looking for a shala to practice in
             | I'll typically choose the place that has Ashtanga/Mysore on
             | the schedule, as it's likely that the owners/teachers
             | aren't just interested in yoga as exercise. I'd really
             | suggest finding a master teacher/s to practice with in real
             | life, there's nothing like it. You'll know it when you find
             | it.
             | 
             | I also read pretty obsessively when I started my yoga
             | practice, some of which I'll leave below
             | [6][7][8][9][10][11]. If you start practicing you'll find
             | the sutras and other texts that speak to you as well, just
             | put in the work and stay curious and open! Happy to answer
             | any questions.
             | 
             | [1] https://www.dhammatalks.org/
             | 
             | [2]
             | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_Mind,_Beginner%27s_Mind
             | 
             | [3] https://plumvillage.shop/products/books/zen/the-other-
             | shore-...
             | 
             | [4] https://joy.tergar.org/
             | 
             | [5] https://www.instagram.com/wearejared/
             | 
             | [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roots_of_Yoga
             | 
             | [7] https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/784289
             | 
             | [8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_on_Yoga
             | 
             | [9] https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/35455963
             | 
             | [10] https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/13542603
             | 
             | [11] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/295000.Cutting_Thr
             | ough_S...
        
               | free_energy_min wrote:
               | amazingly valuable comment, thanks!
        
       | eigenschwarz wrote:
       | This sounds great but I just can't get by the oxygen deprivation
       | and potential harm to your brain. Not to mention the hypercapnia
       | induced tetany is very uncomfortable and seems a _clear_ signal
       | from the body that  "this isn't good!".
       | 
       | [As part of a psychedelic retreat we did breathwork the day
       | before the trip to "open the mind". I faked it because I was
       | worried about the above unanswered questions I had. I still had a
       | great trip and feel no need for another one or similar (ie. via
       | breathwork) to this day. :) ]
        
         | nradov wrote:
         | Free divers experience the same hypoxia and hypercapnia
         | effects. Doesn't seem to be a problem.
        
           | Enginerrrd wrote:
           | I think I recall reading a paper a while back on free divers
           | that showed there was damage being done to the brain even
           | though it wasn't immediately apparent. Similar to how lots of
           | small brain impacts add up in football players.
        
           | mightyham wrote:
           | > Doesn't seem to be a problem
           | 
           | I'm almost certain any amount of oxygen deprivation is
           | damaging to the brain. If there were studies that showed
           | conclusions to the contrary, I'd be very curious to read
           | them.
        
           | gonzo41 wrote:
           | They die all the time. It's a problem. :P
        
         | jobs_throwaway wrote:
         | Oxygen deprivation? As noted in the study, circular breathwork
         | has been shown to increase blood oxygenation
        
         | pmichaud wrote:
         | I feel the same. I did it once and had a big experience, but I
         | just can my talk myself into believing it's safe.
        
       | ilrwbwrkhv wrote:
       | One should avoid this. It damages the brain. Better is just pure
       | meditation where you can reach bliss states pretty fast once you
       | can get access concentration.
        
         | jobs_throwaway wrote:
         | citation needed
        
       | labrador wrote:
       | Breathwork is a really uncomfortable experience. I lay on a floor
       | mat hyperventilating for an hour with a group of people only to
       | feel a little expanded. Breathwork was developed as an
       | alternative to psychedelics becasue those were illegal, and now
       | that psilocybin is readily available in California there's no
       | need for it. Thumbs down.
        
         | rqtwteye wrote:
         | It takes a while to get used to breathwork. When I started,
         | focusing on the breath always gave me anxiety. It took quite a
         | while to make it into a comfortable experience.
        
           | labrador wrote:
           | It really dries out the lungs besides being uncomfortable
        
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