[HN Gopher] Bob Moore, who founded Bob's Red Mill, has died
___________________________________________________________________
Bob Moore, who founded Bob's Red Mill, has died
Author : mikhael
Score : 298 points
Date : 2024-02-14 04:38 UTC (18 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nytimes.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nytimes.com)
| chubot wrote:
| Some good testimonials for Bob's product 5 months ago:
|
| _Breakfast cereal is in long-term decline (wsj.com)_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37540770
|
| This article is great -- I didn't know the back story behind the
| company, but a few things stand out.
|
| - He changed careers pretty late in life. _By his mid-40s, he was
| managing a J.C. Penney auto shop in Redding, Calif., when he
| wandered into a library and ran across a book called "John
| Goffe's Mill," by George Woodbury, which chronicled the author's
| restoration of a run-down family flour mill_
|
| - He was religious, and not in a superficial way. _Mr. Moore
| eventually began feeling the tug of a lifelong dream: to learn to
| read the Bible in its original languages, including Hebrew and
| Koine Greek_
|
| As a person who was raised without religion, I've been noticing
| that it can be a major reason why people make food of
| "irrational" quality.
|
| What I've been seeing in every area of life, including software,
| is "optimization" of businesses by owners. It's been taken to new
| heights in the last 10-20 years by private equity.
|
| They buy up working businesses and lower the quality to the
| amount that the market will bear, and pocket the difference.
|
| It's apparently optimizing profits for the owners, but it's
| destroying economic value. Multiply that by M businesses in N
| different industries and you have a declining country.
|
| So if you want to do something interesting and worth remembering,
| you need a better reason than being "rational". So kudos to Bob
| for this -- it seems like his life was its own reward.
| kiba wrote:
| _So if you want to do something interesting and worth
| remembering, you need a better reason than being "rational". So
| kudos to Bob for this -- it seems like his life was its own
| reward._
|
| You're going to need to define what 'rational' is. Optimizing a
| certain kind of metric beyond all reason is going to destroy
| whatever economic engine that is currently providing people
| their livelihood.
| TaylorAlexander wrote:
| Doesn't seem to be true. Bob's Red Mill seems to be doing
| fine.
| banannaise wrote:
| I believe they are referring to the modern economist's
| definition of "rational", which is equivalent to "profit-
| maximizing".
| cogman10 wrote:
| > Optimizing a certain kind of metric beyond all reason is
| going to destroy whatever economic engine that is currently
| providing people their livelihood.
|
| I agree. The general trend of optimizing only for shareholder
| value has destroyed the livelihood of countless workers.
| Heck, it's destroyed legacy companies like kmart and sears.
| It's all but killed off manufacturing in the US. And, were
| the quality better, it'd kill off the jobs of most HN
| commenters as businesses would love nothing more than to
| offshore everything to the cheapest location possible.
|
| The economy is a giant prisoner's dilemma. It'd be far
| healthier if wealth was better distributed yet individual
| companies and shareholders can make a boatload of money by
| taking shortcuts and keeping things running at barebones
| levels.
| pimlottc wrote:
| > As a person who was raised without religion, I've been
| noticing that it can be a major reason why people make food of
| "irrational" quality.
|
| I don't follow, can you explain how religiosity relates to food
| quality?
| parl_match wrote:
| There's a certain emphasis, by people of a certain type of
| religiousness, on focusing heavily on the base needs of a
| person instead of "worldly" desires. I don't mean this in a
| condescending way, I'm having trouble expressing how it
| manifests. It's sort of a focus on the gifts God gave us and
| the way he wants us to live. I'm not religious btw, but I
| think I understand the mindset.
| hyggetrold wrote:
| Well said - I think of Quaker (edit: I meant Shaker)
| furniture as a great example of this.
| psunavy03 wrote:
| In areas that have them, Amish roofers are known for top-
| quality workmanship, period dot.
| InitialLastName wrote:
| As a Quaker I appreciate the callout, but you probably
| mean Shaker furniture. The Religious Society of Friends
| isn't known for their carpentry.
| Rapzid wrote:
| Known for something even better though; banning a certain
| practice from their society more than a decade before the
| Constitution was ratified.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| Since my kitchen cabinets are "modified Shaker," I
| appreciate this.
|
| There's something about simple design that you can
| appreciate without being in any way religious.
| Christopher Alexander tries to get at it.
| hyggetrold wrote:
| D'oh - thank you, you are correct. I was thinking of
| Shaker furniture.
|
| That said, I also admire the Quakers for their values.
| Rapzid wrote:
| I don't think religiousness is a prerequisite or an
| indicator for the mindset of enjoying the simple things in
| life or quality craftsmanship. Perhaps religious people are
| more likely to use religion to rationalize these
| proclivities.
| someuser2345 wrote:
| It sounds like by "base needs", you mean basic, or
| foundational needs. Like, making sure that people have
| food, water and shelter. Which makes sense, if the
| foundation is strong, you can build a lot on top of it.
| hyggetrold wrote:
| It's quality in general. If you are building something for
| whatever god you happen to believe in, you are going to want
| to build something of high quality to honor that. Why make a
| shoddy sacrifice?
| dangus wrote:
| So atheists hate quality now?
|
| I don't recall chick-fil-a sandwiches being offerings to
| god, I'm pretty sure they're sold to consumers.
|
| This theory also doesn't really explain why a lot of
| Christian products are very low quality.
|
| The eggs at Aldi with the Bible verses are downright
| terrible compared to a pasture raised product from a brand
| like Vital Farms.
|
| MyPillow pillows are bottom of the barrel.
|
| Tyson Foods is certainly not known for quality.
| phaedryx wrote:
| Or... atheists like quality for other reasons?
|
| Saying "some people associate quality workmanship with
| their belief in God" doesn't mean:
|
| 1. all religious folks care about quality workmanship
|
| 2. all people who care about quality workmanship are
| religious
| dangus wrote:
| I agree with you but that's not really what all these
| parent commenters are strongly implying.
|
| They're giving religion way more credit than it's due.
| quesera wrote:
| Religion is a reason for many great things that people
| do.
|
| Food quality, perhaps. But art, music, architecture,
| definitely.
|
| Not all religious people do great things, not all great
| things are done for religious reasons.
|
| Your logic directionality is failing you badly here.
|
| It is possible to say nice things about someone without
| implying condemnation of another.
| dylan604 wrote:
| I was just watching an old episode of Top Gear that had
| Steven Tyler as a guest. He mentioned a quote that his mom
| said, "The ark was made by amateurs while the Titanic was
| made by professionals". I found it amusing.
| nineplay wrote:
| I have a friend who is Orthodox Christian and follows a very
| strict fasting schedule. I disagree with her about many things
| but I've always found her very thoughtful when it comes to her
| religion. She says she sees fasting not as a requirement from
| God but as a gift from God.
|
| It is a opportunity to emphasize with those in poverty. It is a
| way to truly appreciate every meal - saying grace before a meal
| take on a real significance. And it is an opportunity to be
| truly thoughtful about the food you are putting into your body
| - particularly as the fasts are often "no meat" or something
| else specific.
|
| She is also not surprisingly a very good cook and cooks most
| things from scratch. If she were to start a food company, I'm
| sure she'd use the same values.
| user3939382 wrote:
| > She says she sees fasting not as a requirement from God but
| as a gift from God
|
| It's hard to be in prayer all day. If you're hungry however,
| you are perpetually reminded and thinking of God.
| orenlindsey wrote:
| It also allows you to focus better, undistracted by the
| next meal.
| malfist wrote:
| Undistracted by the next meal, but maybe by a growling
| belly
| nekasrbenda wrote:
| Orthodox Lent is not about fasting, but about abstaining
| from certain foods (so probably incorrect to call it a
| "fast").
|
| You are not supposed to go hungry, just be strict on what
| you consume.
| hindsightbias wrote:
| I looked into one of those Trappist Abbey breweries way
| back. The monks appeared pretty well fed. Brewing is fun,
| but getting up at 5am and praying all day...
| DylanDmitri wrote:
| Fasting is less "do this for ritual purity" and more "this is
| an exercise for building self control" like weightlifting is
| an practice for building physical strength.
|
| Some religious diets are perpetual, like "no pork ever".
| Orthodox fasting is "eat everything half of the year" and
| then practice self control by abstaining from the
| meat/wine/oil/dairy the other half.
| dangus wrote:
| I feel like the obvious thing to point out in this whole
| discussion is that this practice isn't inherently religious
| at all. You can reap 100% of the benefits of fasting
| without the religion.
| robertlagrant wrote:
| There's no need to turn a thoughtful thread into a
| justification of the moral superiority of your identity.
| giantg2 wrote:
| Many religious practices are borrowed from other
| religions or have some secular origin/reasoning. This is
| especially true for many of the food restrictions. Prior
| to germ theory, you ate something unclean and now God
| must be punishing you for it, etc.
|
| "I think atheists actually empathize with the poor even
| more"
|
| I think both this statement and the one you are
| responding to are getting to general/stereotypical.
| Fasting can be some meaningless ego/status religious
| thing. Just as some atheists might be more empathetic.
|
| In my limited experience, the religious fasters seem
| mostly to be doing it because their community (church)
| does it and they want to belong, not for the exercise in
| self control or empathy. Although i msure both exist.
| It's also been my experience that atheists aren't any
| more empathetic towards the poor than the average person,
| religious or not.
| ymyms wrote:
| I've been thinking about something like this recently. I
| was raised Catholic but have since become atheist. I've
| connected the health benefits of fasting and eating less
| red meat to some of the practices in Catholicism during
| lent. Personally, I find it hard to remember to try and
| do a fast or really build a long-term avoidance of red
| meat. So lately I've been thinking that while I may not
| believe in any gods, becoming "culturally Catholic" and
| re-adopting some of those practices could give me the
| structure I need to make some of those beneficial
| changes.
| tharmas wrote:
| Not just spiritually healthy but physically too:
| https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/fasting-benefits
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| That is mostly different but the nomenclature is confusing.
| The orthodox christian tradition of fasting is rarely ever
| strictly fasting in the medical sense. What they mean is
| voluntary abstinence from certain kinds of food on certain
| days, with the specifics varying by tradition & individual
| particulars.
|
| Most lay orthodox christians only "truly" fast before
| taking communion and around a few particularly important
| holidays. So when they talk about fasting they are _not_
| normally talking about something that resembles
| intermittent fasting in practice.
| chubot wrote:
| Hm I'm glad this story made it to the top. I'll indulge this
| train of thought some more, since it's something I've been
| thinking about. (But still in honor of the person who this
| article is about)
|
| Again, growing up without religion, I always wondered what the
| deal was with rules like "kosher" and "Halal". To me, it seemed
| like people were following old rules that didn't make sense in
| the modern world (though thankfully I never really voiced these
| opinions).
|
| Now, you can argue about the details of these rules, but the
| point is that there actually have to be rules beyond
| "rationality", as I said.
|
| ---
|
| The "rational" thing is to adulterate food, and this has been a
| big problem throughout history.
|
| For example, here's a picture of stamped bread from the first
| century AD in Pompeii -
| https://ridiculouslyinteresting.com/2013/07/22/preserved-loa...
|
| The stamp apparently being required to identify the baker in
| case of fraud.
|
| One way you can get a sense of the incentive to adulterate food
| is to look at all the colorful punishments for doing so -
| http://www.theoldfoodie.com/2011/09/bakers-dozen.html
|
| _In Vienna, bakers caught selling underweight bread were put
| in the baeckerschupfen - a sort of cage which was then plunged
| into the river several times._
|
| _In Turkey, a bad baker was stretched out on his own kneading
| table and the bastinado (foot-beating with a stick) was
| administered._
|
| _Perhaps the most public and painful punishment was in ancient
| Egypt, were an offending baker could be nailed by the ear to
| the door of his shop, where no doubt his customers gave him
| even more abuse._
|
| More -
| https://musingsonfoodhistory.wordpress.com/2016/01/12/death-...
|
| A law in Britain -
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_of_Bread_Act_1757
|
| ---
|
| So the "rational" thing is to adulterate food, just like the
| "rational" thing is to spray ads all over web content, and add
| dark patterns to iOS apps. It makes money, in the short term.
|
| But the cultures that survived and took over the world had
| rules beyond what's "rational". Christians, Jews, and Muslims
| all have extra rules you have to follow with regarding food.
| You don't really question why, but the act of compliance is a
| virtue.
|
| So now I no longer think the arbitrary rules are so strange.
| You can argue with the details, the high level bit is that you
| don't just optimize for your own business. You have a higher
| duty.
|
| ---
|
| If a society has 10,000 food producers, and all of them are
| doing the bare minumum, then eventually the health of the
| citizens is going to be the bare minimum too.
|
| The neighboring clan with stricter rules - and yes MORALS -
| will overtake them.
|
| ---
|
| And my point is that we're back in this situation NOW.
| Corporations have optimized the production of food for profit,
| while remaining technically legal.
|
| _America's packaged food supply is ultra-processed_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20551847 -
| https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2019/07/us-packaged-fo...
|
| America exported this problem to countries like Brazil, which
| started the recent research on ultra-processed foods:
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/food/2020/feb/13/how-ultra-proce...
|
| Stories on Hacker News -
| https://hn.algolia.com/?q=ultra+processed+food
|
| (People who don't think this is real have to answer the
| question of why men and women weigh 30 or 50 pounds more on
| average than they did in 1960, etc.)
|
| ---
|
| Similar line of thought with respect to gambling and crypto -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33910537. A younger me
| would have thought that gambling is each person's choice. It's
| a free country.
|
| But if you have a society of 10,000 people where 50% of people
| are playing negative sum games, then pretty soon that society
| is not competitive anymore. They're not producing anything. The
| societies that simply banned gambling are the ones that
| survived. (And even now I don't necessarily agree with banning
| gambling, just saying there is a a group selection phenomenon
| there.)
|
| Likewise, imposing burdensome and arbitrary rules on food is
| probably good in the long term. That has to be a bigger reason
| for doing things other than making money tomorrow. We might
| want to bring back some of the colorful punishments, rather
| than letting corporations make the rules.
|
| In tech, we have poisoned our own information supply, which is
| profitable in the short term, but obviously bad in the long
| term.
| beardicus wrote:
| i can't imagine many people would agree with how you're using
| the term "rational". short-term thinking is not an automatic
| outcome of rationality... you seem to be describing some of
| the negative effects of capitalism instead.
| ymyms wrote:
| "Short-term" is also relative. Reading what the original
| author wrote, I interpreted it as them working backwards
| from the severe punishments for underweighting bread and
| what might cause them. Perhaps it's not the original baker
| underweighting bread, but their son or their grandson who
| doesn't have the right context for not doing so. Maybe they
| are trying to get more out of the family bakery, try
| something new, shake things up. It might be rational in the
| sense of game theory and the expected outcome of multiple
| generations of bakers. So over 100 years time you might
| find half your bakeries have reduced the size of their
| bread while the competing town has not and they overtake
| you.
|
| Or maybe the town faces hard times and the baker might want
| to cut costs by reducing the weight of their bread to help
| their own family. That might be rational under those
| circumstances.
| morning-coffee wrote:
| Good post. (I appreciate the thoughtful responses and
| references, so thank you.)
|
| > In tech, we have poisoned our own information supply
|
| Curious to know more about what you mean by this, if you have
| the time... poisoned how? cheers!
| tharmas wrote:
| Greed and Corruption! And blame Milton Friedman for the
| corrupt economic philosophy. He foolishly believed and
| preached that shareholders would never act irrationally such
| that they would harm the company. Alan Greenspan believed
| that too but at least admitted that he was wrong, post 2008
| bank meltdowns.
| CobrastanJorji wrote:
| To some extent, I think that the problem comes down to
| communities. If you feel like your work is your contribution
| to your community, and especially to specific people, your
| goal isn't to make money. It's to contribute. You're
| incentivized to make good things that people like and help
| people. But when it's a massive crowd of people that you
| don't even know, ordering your stuff from afar because it's
| cheaper than whatever local source, you're not really of
| them. You have no responsibilities towards them. It makes
| sense that, as a society grows, it needs either stronger ways
| to tie people to each other (religion, nationalism, war), or
| some other form of control (laws, stamps, inspectors,
| baeckerschupfen).
| FredPret wrote:
| The job of corporations is to optimize for profit.
|
| The job of society is to set the rules within which they can
| do so.
|
| Our ruleset is thousands of years old and is rooted in
| religion, myth, tradition, and millennia of practical
| compromises. The evolution of this ruleset should not be
| taken lightly, nor should old rules be discarded out of hand
| because they stem from now-unfashionable traditions.
| cupcakecommons wrote:
| This seems like a very cynical take of how private equity
| optimization works, it may be true in some instances, but it
| hardly universal as you seem to be implying. There is often a
| tremendous amount of low hanging fruit for businesses run by
| individuals that is easy to replicate across businesses and
| industries. Focus areas like implementing basic accounting and
| administrative systems are often at the core of optimizing a
| business when you do it professionally. These things almost
| always add value and are entirely rational from a market
| perspective.
| pjmorris wrote:
| > These things almost always add value and are entirely
| rational from a market perspective.
|
| From the perspective of efficiency for the ownership, yes.
| However, every laid off staff member still needs to eat,
| house themselves, and pay their other bills.
|
| It seems to me that the long run effect, apart from good or
| bad intent, is that the people in society who don't have
| access to capital wind up having to manage at a subsistence
| level.
| legitster wrote:
| Regardless of how you feel about Peter Thiel, everyone should
| read Zero to One. He eloquently ties together the concepts of
| entrepreneurialism and contrarianism
|
| Real entrepreneurs only go into business because they believe
| they know something that otherwise efficient markets do not. So
| that means you have to be a contrarian and believe in secrets
| or undiscovered principles.
|
| Some of the more interesting data points he includes is the
| decline in cult membership and belief in secrets. We as a
| society are generating less iconoclasts, so all that's left in
| business is an efficiency puzzle.
| ponector wrote:
| Sounds like someone who want to rationalize being a
| billionaire.
|
| Another funny thing is to learn about "principles" of Ray
| Dalio. Man has a cult but tries to proof otherwise.
| hindsightbias wrote:
| Cults and conspiracy thinking just went mainstream.
|
| Back in the day, conspiracies were kind of unique and
| interesting and you could talk to a believer about it for
| hours about all the details and complications. People put a
| lot of thinking into it.
|
| Today, conspiracies are like everything else - as shallow as
| the first page of google search.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| > the decline in cult membership
|
| Was that written before QAnon, etc.?
| nipponese wrote:
| There are at least two ways to optimize:
|
| 1. Max profit for a small group of shareholders
|
| 2. A cool place to work with people you like.
|
| Try explaining #2 to a PE group.
|
| [edit: typos]
| caycep wrote:
| maybe it's a commodities mindset? vs. other companies who do a
| Veblen good type of market targeting, i.e. the point where
| raising price and quality expands the market/market segment
| (i.e. LVMH, Hermes, to a certain point, Apple)
| kevmo wrote:
| I find it really interesting this went from the top comment to
| the bottom one.
| dang wrote:
| We downweighted it because it veered off topic and generic.
| That's standard moderation practice.
| neonate wrote:
| https://archive.ph/Xpkgo
|
| https://web.archive.org/web/20240214160536/https://www.nytim...
| Blackthorn wrote:
| A great man, whose commitment to quality resulted in a great
| company with a sterling brand. His commitment to the employees
| that made it great was equally important as it's now (and has
| been for a bit) an employee-owned company and stands in obvious
| contrast to others who built up a known quality brand only to
| sell out to private equity. Rest in peace, Bob.
| neilv wrote:
| > _Despite the company's explosive growth, Mr. Moore fended off
| numerous offers by food giants to buy Bob's Red Mill. He opted
| instead for an employee stock ownership plan, instituted in 2010,
| on his 81st birthday; by April 2020, the plan had put 100 percent
| of the company in the hands of its more than 700 employees._
|
| Sounds like Bob Moore had some values most of us could admire.
|
| Anyone know some of the pitfalls of an employee-owned company
| like that, and proven ways to avoid them?
|
| (For a tech industry example, a large chunk of CraigsList got
| sold by a former employee to an overlapping large company, eBay.)
| digging wrote:
| The Craiglist example seems impossible (barring collusion) if
| ownership is distributed among many employees, no?
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| > Anyone know some of the pitfalls of an employee-owned company
| like that, and proven ways to avoid them?
|
| I guess I can't think of any. Mostly seems to have a lot of
| upside. I interviewed recently at an employee owned tech
| company - a very rare bird indeed. It sounded like they did a
| lot of decision making collaboratively. While the position
| itself wasn't that interesting, the company structure and
| culture seemed quite attractive.
| anthonypasq wrote:
| dictatorships are inherently faster moving and more decisive
| than democracies.
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| I would much prefer to live in a democracy even given that
| potential "downside".
| anthonypasq wrote:
| cool, no one suggested otherwise
| klyrs wrote:
| "Break shit fast" isn't universally accepted as a
| beneficial mindset for an organization as large as a
| country, despite having worked well for a scrappy startup
| that one time. One idiot can quickly and decisively wreck
| your entire economy with the stroke of a pen. A more
| intelligent dictator may simply bend the economy to his
| personal profits.
| anthonypasq wrote:
| Idk dont know what it is about hackernews commenters that
| just feel compelled to post complete nonsequiters. none
| of this relates to my comment in any way.
| mgfist wrote:
| What happens if you want to leave? Are you forced to
| liquidate your stock, and to whom?
|
| What happens if there is an underperforming worker? What
| happens with their ownership
|
| What if you want to divest?
|
| Not sure on any of the above, if anyone knows would love to
| hear the answers
| ensignavenger wrote:
| The short answer is it depends on the company. Different
| companies have different governance models. Some allow
| former employees to retain interest, but then they can only
| sell to current employees, for example.
| lr4444lr wrote:
| Wouldn't the pitfalls generally be the same as the risks that
| labor unions would have to hampering efficiency and slowing
| innovation ?
|
| (Before I get downvoted, I'm not saying unions are evil, and
| that this always happens, just that it's a known risk)
| badrequest wrote:
| I would love to see some citations on this subject that don't
| come from The Federalist Society.
| lr4444lr wrote:
| There's evidence it could be regional. This would not
| surprise me given the differences in public social safety
| nets.
|
| https://www.researchgate.net/publication/4840766_Unions_and
| _...
| benzible wrote:
| In fact it's not a "known risk". It's an active area of
| research, with at least some findings contradicting your
| assumptions, e.g.:
|
| > Our findings suggest that the traditional hold-up view
| whereby unions discourage innovation does not necessarily
| survive. When the voice effect is neither too strong nor too
| low, the unionized sector outperforms the market in terms of
| process innovation, while the effect on product innovation is
| strictly increasing in the voice power.
|
| https://docs.iza.org/dp14102.pdf
| badrequest wrote:
| > Anyone know some of the pitfalls of an employee-owned company
| like that, and proven ways to avoid them?
|
| The primary pitfall is that if you become successful, your
| investors don't get the returns they crave at the expense of
| those responsible for your success getting to live like serfs.
| peter_l_downs wrote:
| An ESOP is also a great way for a founder to exit the company
| in a tax-advantaged way. The stock that the employees receive
| also usually takes the place of alternative 401(k) investments
| they could be making. ESOPs are a very interesting tool but
| there are some real nightmare scenarios (owner liquidates via
| ESOP; company then fails; employees end up without jobs and
| without retirement savings.)
|
| Another issue with ESOPs is that they are extremely expensive
| to administrate.
|
| EDIT: this is a succinct and reasonable summary of some of the
| risks of an ESOP (primarily from an employee's perspective)
| https://pensionrights.org/resource/problems-with-esops/
| neilv wrote:
| Good point. At least in the US right now -- where an S&P
| index tends to grow over time, and is vastly less risky than
| all eggs in one basket -- I guess an employee-owned company
| should emphasize also doing ordinary Bogle total-market
| retirement investing.
|
| If participating in employee-ownership ends up at the cost of
| a retiree having sufficient retirement savings -- such as if
| the employee can't or doesn't build a solid 401(k) or IRA --
| that indeed seems risky.
| bee_rider wrote:
| I wonder if there's an index for majority employee-owned
| companies. Wait, is that even possible?
| starkparker wrote:
| There are a few thousand in the US, but most are so small
| that an index wouldn't be much. NCEO maintains lists but
| they're paid (and priced for consultants):
| https://www.nceo.org/employee-ownership-data/esop-
| company-li...
|
| DOL posts Form 5500 filings but they lag by 2-3 years:
| https://www.dol.gov/agencies/ebsa/employers-and-
| advisers/pla...
|
| As of 2021 they listed 6,533 ESOP filings at a combined
| asset cap of about $2T. For context Apple's market cap
| just passed $3T in December.
| aaronax wrote:
| I don't think that is possible. How would you own shares
| in multiple companies where the shares are owned
| (exclusively? mostly?) by employees?
|
| Any mechanism which facilitates outside ownership erodes
| the effect of being ESOP.
| legitster wrote:
| There are lots of great, successful employee owned companies.
| But by their nature they don't really invest in growth.
| bdcravens wrote:
| "growth" isn't always a net positive
| legitster wrote:
| Sure, but if the question is "why are there not more of
| them" then that's your answer.
| hindsightbias wrote:
| There was a study way back of a printing company, I think in
| MN, four characters like OCCP or something but can't find it.
|
| But I did find this: https://www.mnceo.org
|
| Which looks pretty impressive. I wonder how many states have
| something like this.
| poulsbohemian wrote:
| >Anyone know some of the pitfalls of an employee-owned company
| like that, and proven ways to avoid them?
|
| I'd argue that when you look at companies with _longevity_ they
| tend to be held closely, either by a family or within a coop
| style model. They also don 't have to be small companies - look
| at places like Kiewit. As someone working to energize a small
| town economy, there's a lot to be said by exploring these
| cooperative models, given that PE / VC ain't likely to come to
| rural America anytime soon.
| ensignavenger wrote:
| Limited liquidity- if you can only sell shares to employees,
| you have to find other employees to buy your shares who have
| the money to do so, and you may have to accept a much lower
| price than some one on the open market might pay.
|
| Decision making- depending on the companies governance model,
| it may be hard to get everyone onboard to make large
| investments in new areas.
|
| If the company/employees do make bad decisions, it can result
| in employees not just losing their jobs, but also a substantial
| portion of their saving, which may be tied up in the company.
| This is the same reason why the common advice is to not tie up
| too much of your savings in your companies own stock (see Enron
| employees, for example).
|
| I am sure there are many more- but there are also a lot of
| advantages, as such, I am a big fan of both worker owned
| businesses and consumers cooperatives. I wish both were far
| more common.
| samatman wrote:
| > _if you can only sell shares to employees, you have to find
| other employees to buy your shares who have the money to do
| so, and you may have to accept a much lower price than some
| one on the open market might pay._
|
| If you can only sell to fellow employees, that's priced in to
| the value of the stock. There is no open market price, so it
| can't really be higher or lower except hypothetically.
|
| This isn't a nitpick, it means that the price you get for the
| stock is more based on the dividends it bears, since market
| speculation plays no role. I don't think it's legal to force
| people to sell stock when they're no longer associated with a
| company, so "employee and former employee owned" is probably
| more accurate.
| bruce511 wrote:
| Stocks have 3 values;
|
| A) tradeable on a Stock exchange. (Capital value)
|
| B) income from dividends (income value)
|
| C) voting rights (direction value)
|
| If the company is not publically traded, then Capital value
| more or less disappears (can be assumed to be 0).
|
| Income value is almost always the primary use-case for this
| kind of share.
|
| Usually "employee held shares" have limited or restricted
| voting rights. (An extreme short-term position might be
| "liquidate the business and divide the spoils", which might
| be popular if the majority is nearing retirement, but is
| clearly not good for business survival.)
|
| These shares should in no way ever be considered as part of
| your retirement plan. Period.
| calny wrote:
| Sorry to hear this, but congrats to Bob for a life well lived and
| building a brand that made quality products. We have their muesli
| multiple times a week, their farro as well, and this morning our
| kids loved Valentine's Day pancakes made from their mix. Thanks
| Bob
| morning-coffee wrote:
| Kudos to Bob, for a life well lived.
|
| I love both the Oat Bran, and Scottish Oats they make.
| phaedryx wrote:
| "What made you want to switch to the employee-owned model?"
|
| "I came up here to study the Bible, and the Bible says to do unto
| others as you would have them do unto you. And so there's an
| element of how you treat people that impressed me. And sharing in
| the profit, sharing in the company to make things more fair and
| more benevolent impressed me, and I felt strongly about it."
|
| source: https://www.pdxmonthly.com/eat-and-drink/2023/02/bobs-
| red-mi...
|
| It's always interesting to me to see how Christianity intersects
| with capitalism.
| hyggetrold wrote:
| _> It 's always interesting to me to see how Christianity
| intersects with capitalism._
|
| Reminds me of a conversation I had with a Danish person, in
| reference to their welfare system: "some call it socialism - in
| Denmark we call it Christianity."
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| It seems likely that Socialism would not exist without
| Christianity. We know that the early Christians were
| essentially communist - they owned everything in common.
| Christianity taught that wealth should not be hoarded but
| used to improve people's lives in community. That every
| person is created in the image of God and thus has value no
| matter what they can (or cannot) do - meaning that disabled
| and old people had just as much right to live as anyone else.
|
| Now the dominant American expression of Christianity
| (Evangelicalism) teaches that socialism is some kind of evil
| and has politically aligned itself with the owner class.
| azinman2 wrote:
| That's because it got wrapped up in right wing politics. It
| used to be evangelicals were equally likely from both
| parties. Then Regan courted them and the rest is history.
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| Indeed. Jimmy Carter was (is) an Evangelical. They turned
| their back on their own to go after Reagan.
| QuercusMax wrote:
| Way earlier than that - once Constantine claimed to have
| seen a cross and heard God saying "In hoc signo vinces"
| (Under this sign you will conquer), Christianity was
| forever connected with Empire.
| tekla wrote:
| > It seems likely that Socialism would not exist without
| Christianity.
|
| I may be drunk, but I can't believe this argument is being
| made
|
| I was not aware that Christianity had some sort of monopoly
| of "be nice".
| ren_engineer wrote:
| In the US socialism/communism got tied to the state atheism
| of the Soviets and China which is why there is the political
| divide
| akira2501 wrote:
| > It's always interesting to me to see how Christianity
| intersects with capitalism.
|
| The parable of the three talents is pretty instructive. It is
| considered a good work to run a business and employ people, to
| put them to useful work, and to pay them a fair wage so that
| they may raise a family.
| Der_Einzige wrote:
| I always go back to this:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_and_the_rich_young_man
|
| "Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for the rich
| to enter the kingdom of heaven! Indeed, it is easier for a
| camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who
| is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven." Luke 18:8-18:30
|
| The biblical writers could _not_ have been more clear on this
| topic. Prosperity theology is heresy.
| akira2501 wrote:
| Is Jesus saying earning money is bad or that hoarding it is
| bad? If you earn a lot of money and give to charity, take
| care of your community, and spend it for the betterment of
| your neighbors does this make it hard to get into heaven?
|
| Jesus speaks in parables for a reason.
| samatman wrote:
| As long as we're linking to the Wikipedia article for
| parables, the one OP was referring to deserves a fair
| shake. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Talents
| legitster wrote:
| The earliest corporations were created by monasteries as a way
| of pooling collective resources without requiring heredity
| bonds or government enforcement.
|
| Fast forward to the enlightenment and new understanding of
| universal human rights implies that all people (not just
| monarchs) should have rights to property including ownership
| stakes of enterprises. And that the actions of enterprises
| should be overseen by boards.
|
| Our modern idea that prices should be publicly posted and fair,
| and that losses should be born by businesses was created out of
| Quaker practices of equality.
| SantalBlush wrote:
| >was created out of Quaker practices of equality
|
| If you have a link to some reading material about this, I'd
| love to check it out.
| legitster wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_tag
|
| > "The Pennsylvania Quakers" "honest price" was
| institutionalized in 1874 by John Wanamaker, when he opened
| his eponymous department store in Philadelphia. A renowned
| innovator of the highest integrity, Wanamaker was the first
| retailer to offer money-back guarantees. He also invented
| the price tag: "A devout Christian, he believed that if
| everyone was equal before God, then everyone should be
| equal before price." Before Wanamaker's, every purchase was
| open to a haggle."
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| > It's always interesting to me to see how Christianity
| intersects with capitalism.
|
| Indeed. There are many different Christian views on capitalism
| ranging from being outright anti-capitalism to the prosperity
| gospel which encourages it's adherents to get rich (and views
| riches as a sign of God's blessing - this is why that
| particular group could overlook so much of Trump's seemingly
| unchristian actions and values - they figured he's rich so he
| must be blessed by God).
|
| Bob's Christian philosophy seems to have been somewhere between
| those two extremes. He definitely didn't view wealth as
| something to be hoarded, he used it to help lift up his workers
| and his community.
| svieira wrote:
| Catholic doctrine on the issue sounds pretty close to Bob's -
| see Rerum Novarum [1], Quadragesimo Anno [2], Populorum
| Progressio [3], Centesimus Annus [4], Caritas in Veritate
| [5], and Fratelli Tutti [6] for various expressions of the
| doctrine over the modern era.
|
| Or, if you want a shorter version see
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_destination_of_goods
|
| [1]: https://www.vatican.va/content/leo-
| xiii/en/encyclicals/docum... [2]:
| https://www.vatican.va/content/pius-
| xi/en/encyclicals/docume... [3]:
| https://www.vatican.va/content/paul-
| vi/en/encyclicals/docume... [4]:
| https://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-
| ii/en/encyclicals/d... [5]:
| https://www.vatican.va/content/benedict-
| xvi/en/encyclicals/d... [6]: https://www.vatican.va/content/f
| rancesco/en/encyclicals/docu...
| chanandler_bong wrote:
| Sad day in the food world... William Post, who helped create Pop-
| Tarts died today as well.
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/14/business/william-post-dea...
| lIl-IIIl wrote:
| From what I can tell, William Post worked for Kellogg. Any
| relation to Charles William Post, founder of the company that
| makes Post cereals?
| mathgeek wrote:
| His obituary has the answers you are looking for:
| https://www.mkdfuneralhome.com/obituaries/william-
| post#obitu...
| laborcontract wrote:
| Not really. The answer is no. But the obituary is worth
| reading as the man seems to have lived a good life.
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| He also essentially gave his business to his employees. He was
| known in the community (I live in the area) as being a very
| generous person and all around mensch.
| ekTHEN wrote:
| can you explain what exactly you mean by "mensch" or which
| character traits are being associated with it? as a non-native
| english speaker i have never seen it used and just know it as
| the german word for "human"
| bdcravens wrote:
| from Oxford:
|
| "a person of integrity and honor"
| s0rce wrote:
| It's a Yiddish word m`ntsh, means honorable or admirable
| person
| jjtheblunt wrote:
| It's a German word meaning man and in the Yiddish use has
| the connotation of honorable man?
| hellcow wrote:
| Yes. It's a compliment in Yiddish.
| bqmjjx0kac wrote:
| It's kind of like saying someone is "the man" in English.
| debatem1 wrote:
| Worth noting that "the man" may instead mean
| police/government/etc, usually with negative
| connotations. So context may make this less appropriate
| as a synonym than "righteous dude" as mentioned above.
| woodruffw wrote:
| I think it's closer to "stand-up" or "decent" than
| honorable, but yes.
|
| (The neutral version would be man, which literally means
| man or husband.)
| jacquesm wrote:
| I think it goes well beyond honorable, it also means
| likeable, friendly and easygoing.
| jjtheblunt wrote:
| american slang : righteous dude
|
| :)
| samatman wrote:
| The German word for man is der Mann. Der Mensch is a
| human/person. And yes, in Yiddish it has strong positive
| connotations, which have carried over into the (American,
| at least) loanword.
| lIl-IIIl wrote:
| What does it mean for a company to be employee owned?
|
| What is the benefit to the employee?
| jjtheblunt wrote:
| extra compensation floats with profits and plausibly creates
| a positive feedback ?
| HWR_14 wrote:
| It avoids the issue of dividing profits between employees and
| shareholders, which means the employees keep it.
| ensignavenger wrote:
| Ability to vote on how the business operates and things like
| compensation and benefits. Different employee owned
| businesses are governed differently, but in general, the
| employees have more control.
| CptFribble wrote:
| think of how shareholders drive a company's behavior, and how
| much of most public corporations bad behavior is generating
| dividends or increased share price for large institutional
| shareholders, because the leadership (board) is voted for by
| those same shareholders
|
| now imagine if a company's only shareholders are the
| employees who work there. how much different would a company
| act if the people to whom the leadership are responsible are
| the employees themselves?
| dhc02 wrote:
| All of this is true, and on top of that, at least in the
| case of ESOP plans like the one at Bob's Red Mill, the
| outstanding stock of the company is held in a trust and
| distributed to employees as part of a benefits package over
| time, sort of like a 401k they don't have to pay anything
| to contribute to.
| oooyay wrote:
| Employees have a say in the direction of the company. It
| depends on the bylaws, but employees will vote on certain
| things. There's a lot of talking it up here, but it can also
| suck. I worked for one that was very blue collar as a systems
| engineer and watched as our IT infrastructure decayed and our
| contractual promises would not be met because employees voted
| for bonuses rather than refreshed infrastructure.
| bruce511 wrote:
| With any sufficiently large group there will be a variety
| of opinions when making any decision.
|
| Voting is one way to get a majority opinion, but of course
| that doesn't make it right. Since everyone is in a
| different place in life what may be good for one
| (maximising income before retirement) may conflict with
| another (ensuring job stability and sustainability for the
| next 20 years.)
|
| This is all true regardless of the decision making group -
| board of directors, c-suite, or employees.
|
| So sure, some employee groups would make decisions not
| aligned with my goals. But equally other decision making
| groups do that all the time too.
|
| This is a hard problem because, as a decision group you
| "can't make everyone happy." So it helps if the employee
| group are mostly on the same goals page, and if there are
| leaders who understand the decisions in terms of the agreed
| goals.
|
| Meaning, that regardless of profit share, its a good thing
| if you work at a place where your goals, and the leadership
| goals are aligned.
| wavefunction wrote:
| Sounds like white collar IT other than the bonuses
| ericholscher wrote:
| I met him at a factory tour that we did outside of Portland. He
| was so humble and just seemed like a lovely human. A highlight
| that brings me joy every time I eat his museli for breakfast (70g
| museli, 70g frozen blueberries, 170g whole milk yogurt)
|
| I love that the company is employee-owned, and he just seems like
| an overall inspiration in many ways.
| criddell wrote:
| Are the blueberries still frozen when you eat them?
| Marsymars wrote:
| Different poster, but I have a kinda-similar breakfast. I put
| the frozen blueberries in a bowl in the fridge the night
| before to thaw, or if I forget to do that just microwave them
| for 30s.
| pinchy wrote:
| I put the frozen ones straight into the pot toward the end
| of cooking. They thaw quickly and the juices turn the
| oatmeal bluish. It's great!
| csa wrote:
| I let my muesli, frozen blueberries, and yogurt sit for a
| little bit so that the muesli softens. The blueberries thaw
| enough during that time.
|
| Delicious!
| dhc02 wrote:
| Frozen blueberries thaw extremely quickly. I put them into
| refrigerated yogurt and wait about 10 minutes and they're
| delicious.
| ericholscher wrote:
| I use the wild blueberries (smaller) for better texture, and
| usually just let them sit for ~5 mins and they defrost pretty
| quickly!
| subpixel wrote:
| I bought a chest freezer mainly to accommodate the 20lbs of
| wild blueberries I freeze each summer. A cup of bloobs with a
| little granola on top is my daily breakfast. The berries
| freeze the milk and result in a delicious slush.
|
| Oddly the rest of my family prefers other things so I eat
| them all myself.
| bethekind wrote:
| I love the word Bloobs. I'm going to use it whenever I can
| today
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| Great to see Bob make the front page of HN. I live in the metro
| area where Bob's Red Mill is located. He was known to be very
| generous to many local causes including OHSU (Oregon Health
| Sciences University) and was an all around mensch. Passing the
| company on to it's employees was such a generous move as well.
|
| Bob is a great example of living in such a way that you get a
| great eulogy after you die instead of living in such a way as to
| accumulate as much as possible.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Moore_(American_food_execu...
| xrd wrote:
| I often feel frustrated by the community here but having this
| story be at the top of HN gives me so much hope for my little
| sheltered world. Kudos to Bob, and kudos to all the people of HN.
| mrinterweb wrote:
| Bob Moore was one of my friend's neighbors. Bob's home was a
| simple residence nothing fancy, big or flashy. Just blended right
| into the neighborhood. The quality of Bob's Redmill products has
| always been great.
| demondemidi wrote:
| Bob turned the business over to the workers. It is worker owned.
| Isn't this what Marx was talking about, aka a Soviet? Or am I
| wildly misunderstanding economic philosophy. I'm not trolling HN
| here, but I just have two trump loving parents who adore Bobs
| decision to make it worker owned and I'd like to gotcha them next
| thanksgiving ;)
|
| Here's their statement on being employee owned for the mute
| downvoters:
|
| https://www.bobsredmill.com/employee-owned
| LastMuel wrote:
| I don't think employee owned, by definition, means equally
| shared and profits equally distributed. Which may be the root
| of the confusion.
| dhc02 wrote:
| The way most ESOP plans work is more like this:
|
| 1. Owner[s] sell their stock to the company (note the company
| needs to be fairly successful to have the cash to buy the
| shares. Sometimes it's bought all at once, but often on some
| sort of multi-year payment plan. Bob's Red Mill took approx.
| 10 years to buy out Bob and his partners.)
|
| 2. The company puts the stock into a trust held for the
| benefit of employees.
|
| 3. A portion of shares may be immediately distributed to
| employees based on key status, years of service, etc.
|
| 4. The shares are used as part of benefit packages. It's sort
| of like a 401k that the employees don't actually have to pay
| anything to participate in. The longer you're there, and the
| more important your role (generally), the more you end up
| owning, and it's generally treated like employer 401k matches
| in terms of income tax.
|
| Usually after you reach a certain threshold, you're allowed
| to sell your shares to others or back to the company in order
| to diversify.
| richardgreeko27 wrote:
| A soviet is a governing workers' council made up of workers
| from various local shop floors. A worker owned co-op under
| capitalism is still capitalist, although theoretically less
| exploitative. It is not necessarily Marxist and definitely not
| a soviet.
| demondemidi wrote:
| Thanks!
| roarcher wrote:
| Ah yes, the true spirit of Thanksgiving: finding out you have
| some common ground with your parents, and spending all year
| planning how you're going to use it to dunk on them.
| demondemidi wrote:
| It is against the rules here to make personal attacks. And I
| added the smiley face, relax, I'm kidding.
| roarcher wrote:
| Fair enough, I removed the last sentence. Point still
| stands.
| TimTheTinker wrote:
| Marx was talking about no ownership at all of any means of
| production -- i.e. all means of production are owned by the
| "collective"... which in practice turns out to leave a power
| vacuum that attracts the worst sorts of people, who become
| tyrants.
| dang wrote:
| I feel sure that HN had a thread or two about him over the years,
| most probably about how he turned his company over to the
| employees. But I couldn't find one. Anybody?
| jacquesm wrote:
| There are lots of mentions but I also can't find a thread.
|
| But some more interesting mentions here including a video:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7465124
| csours wrote:
| I put his nutritional yeast on my popcorn. (along with
| butter+olive oil, Tony Chachere's, and Tajin)
|
| Thanks Bob!
| adfm wrote:
| I just ate a bowl of Bob's steel cut oats this morning. They're
| the best in the business. The flours that Bob's Red Mill produces
| are top quality and of a purity hard matched by others. I admire
| his dedication to producing a first-rate product and for his
| forethought to establish an ESOP for the people actually
| producing it.
| throwway120385 wrote:
| I always get their 25 lb bags of quick oats because they're 1/5
| the price of the paperboard cans and way better.
| formvoltron wrote:
| quick oats will spike your blood sugar.
| 7thaccount wrote:
| As someone who recently developed food sensitivities and can't
| eat much of anything (elimination diet), I'm thankful so many
| companies exist in recent years that have
| gluten/soy/dairy/peanut/tree nut free products. Food allergies
| really suck. I've started eating a lot of oatmeal and Bob's
| stuff is great. I also have to practically cook everything to
| ensure I'm not getting soy and other stuff.
| 01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote:
| Aw man. I like their flaxseed as an egg substitute.
| vonzeppelin wrote:
| Bob's Red Mill Extra Thick Rolled Oats with a couple of over easy
| eggs on top is my jam.
| hedgehog wrote:
| Sad event but he built a great company. At any given time we have
| a few of their products at home including flour purchased by the
| 50lb sack.
| Singletail wrote:
| He won the Golden Spurtle at the World Porridge Championships in
| Scotland in 2016, a rare honor. Rest in porridge.
| Der_Einzige wrote:
| My local high school had a "technical center" that they would bus
| us and other students from other local high schools to for
| additional electives: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabin-
| Schellenberg_Center
|
| I was going there during the recession years, and during those
| years when the schools were struggling hard with funding, Bobs
| Red Mill sent out huge amounts of flower, vegan cheese, and other
| extra food they had to our culinary program.
|
| I have always loved that brand as a result, and have never
| declined the opportunity to buy from them. Their restaurant
| within their local store is also quite decent for what it is.
| priprimer wrote:
| we can only hope that he will succeed where old Mr Kellog did not
| klyrs wrote:
| Damn, and Bill Post just died too. Too soon for a cereal killer
| joke?
| wizardforhire wrote:
| If you happen to be in Portland the Bob's Red Mill factory is
| totally worth a visit... especially for breakfast!
|
| They make the food with flour that was milled that day and I
| never new that pancakes could taste so good. Truly eye opening
| food experience.
| salute_to_bob wrote:
| Once many years ago I was eating in the restaurant at the main
| Bobs Red Mill location. They have a lovely second floor indoor
| balcony that looks over the main floor of the store, which
| provides lovely people watching while you eat. There is a piano
| on the second floor, which by itself is already pretty awesome.
| As I ate the tasty food, I thought to myself, it sure is nice to
| hear somebody play the piano while you eat and looked over to see
| who was playing. I squinted my eyes and said to myself, "That
| sure looks like the dude that is on every package of this store,
| he is even wearing the same hat". I walked over and to my delight
| it was indeed Bob Moore, playing the piano in his own store,
| wearing his trademark hat that you see on every package. I waited
| until he was done playing to thank him and shake his hand and
| tell him that it was an honor to meet him. Rest in peace, Bob.
| sircastor wrote:
| An interesting listen if you're up for it, is Guy Raz's interview
| with Bob Moore about the founding of Bob's Red Mill and how they
| became the company they are. It's good stuff.
|
| Personally, I'm a fan of their products. My shelves currently
| hold Vital Wheat Gluten, Arrowroot flour, Tapioca flour, Powered
| milk, and Xantham gum all from Bob's Red mill. They make quality
| products.
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