[HN Gopher] A retiring consultant's advice on consultants
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       A retiring consultant's advice on consultants
        
       Author : samizdis
       Score  : 132 points
       Date   : 2023-08-21 09:40 UTC (13 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.economist.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.economist.com)
        
       | hammock wrote:
       | https://archive.is/Slqwj
        
         | some_furry wrote:
         | Thank you and everyone else that shares a convenient paywall-
         | busting archive link on HN front page stories. It always makes
         | me smile to see them.
        
           | hammock wrote:
           | We used to have them built into the context bar for every
           | submission - it said "web." But the mod removed them because
           | people asked for it (for some reason?)
        
       | TrackerFF wrote:
       | We worked with a McKinsey consultant not too long ago, seemed
       | like a nice fella.
       | 
       | Didn't say much, mostly showed up and took notes during meetings
       | (typical vague "digital transformation" project from the
       | executives).
       | 
       | Probably cost a fortune, despite being the youngest in the room.
        
         | peteradio wrote:
         | If you found out who is father was and where he was from I'm
         | sure it'd make perfect sense.
        
       | karaterobot wrote:
       | Yeah this is pretty spot on. I didn't work for one of the big
       | consultancies, but it was pretty much the same playbook in the
       | three different places I worked. As one of the underlings, I
       | always tried to do good work for clients, but in the end I don't
       | think it was usually worth it for them to pay us as much as they
       | did. It's a weird world, where the value you provide is one of
       | the following:
       | 
       | 1. Using up someone's budget, because they don't get to keep it
       | and want to look like they're doing something with it.
       | 
       | 2. Doing a bunch of pretend work so you can come to the
       | conclusion the VP wanted in the first place.
       | 
       | 3. Being sent in to die on a doomed project, so you can take the
       | blame for it.
       | 
       | Eventually, you look back at your career and notice nothing
       | you've ever worked on made a difference to anybody. The paycheck
       | is nice, but there are other places to get one just like it.
        
         | jimnotgym wrote:
         | > 2. Doing a bunch of pretend work so you can come to the
         | conclusion the VP wanted in the first place.
         | 
         | I was once a contractor at a company that had been acquired
         | twice. The Finance lead all off a sudden had a big team of
         | people, and he lacked the imagination to use them effectively.
         | His team were a waste of space. His solution was to hire a
         | consultancy to 'benchmark' the size of the Finance team. Guess
         | what they found...all of the acquired people had to go!
         | 
         | I felt he lacked the backbone to just make a decision himself.
        
           | mgkimsal wrote:
           | Seems like definitely a CYA move. Some things seem
           | intuitively 'right' but following that intuition isn't always
           | necessarily the best move. But right or wrong, many folks
           | want a CYA card, and hiring external consulting group is
           | usually it.
        
         | vsareto wrote:
         | >Eventually, you look back at your career and notice nothing
         | you've ever worked on made a difference to anybody. The
         | paycheck is nice, but there are other places to get one just
         | like it.
         | 
         | Can't tell you how much motivation was lost after seeing my
         | billed rate to a client vs. what the consultancy was paying me.
         | They should bill higher than what they pay me for sure, but 6
         | times my rate? I was only doing the bare minimum after seeing
         | that.
        
         | jtriangle wrote:
         | >I don't think it was usually worth it for them to pay us as
         | much as they did.
         | 
         | Do understand that, most businesses have zero way to actually
         | hire competent employees outside of their areas of expertise.
         | So if a bread factory wants a CRM spun up to manage their sales
         | and orders, they don't know where to start in terms of finding
         | that sort of talent, and a consultant is a far, far safer
         | option for realizing their goals. The realization of a goal
         | holds nontrivial value, which is what a consulting firm is
         | billing them for.
         | 
         | Could they do it cheaper? Yes, absolutely, but, they'd also
         | need to get lucky, and, understandably, luck isn't really
         | something most successful businesses are willing to leverage.
        
         | pc86 wrote:
         | It's amazing how much money there is to be made in simply using
         | up someone's budget in a way that's "good enough" so they can
         | keep that money next year.
        
       | mberning wrote:
       | Using consultants as a potential fall guy for some big and risky
       | initiative is extremely common in my experience.
        
       | pbj1968 wrote:
       | Every consulting experience ever:
       | 
       | They all work at "top" firms and have "elite" educations. All of
       | them. Seeing it in this thread.
       | 
       | After we sign the contract, "the problem is far, far greater than
       | we were led to believe, and the solution is more consulting."
       | 
       | The HR solution is always the opposite of what we're doing. Title
       | drift? Reduce titles! College grads have same titles as seasoned
       | veterans? More titles!
       | 
       | The operational solution is always the same bundle of crap they
       | sell to everyone else, but they'll tell you it's custom. Good
       | luck getting any fixes in a reasonable time frame or expense.
        
       | jl6 wrote:
       | Consultants very, very rarely bring any genuine novel insight. In
       | my experience, their prime contribution is simultaneously their
       | most cynical and most useful: they navigate sclerotic
       | bureaucracies, locate the people who know the answer, and then
       | present the answer to decision-makers in a way that cuts through
       | organizational politics and saves executive face.
       | 
       | Small orgs don't need consultants. Not because they can't afford
       | them, but because small orgs don't have the dysfunctional
       | communication patterns of large orgs, which is the prime driver
       | of demand for consultants.
       | 
       | The client already has the answer within their possession. The
       | client should already be able to surface that answer and execute
       | on it. But they just can't. They are institutionally incapable of
       | finding the already-existing answer within themselves.
       | 
       | The old adage says the consultant will borrow your watch to tell
       | you the time. This quip masks the fact that clients don't know
       | how the big hand relates to the little hand, or where their watch
       | is located.
        
         | whimsicalism wrote:
         | Strongest defense of consulting I've read
        
           | quickthrower2 wrote:
           | The cynical take is consultants are there to embed themselves
           | in an organization so deeply that they ensure that more of
           | their consultants are hired in the future.
        
         | hammock wrote:
         | > their prime contribution is simultaneously their most cynical
         | and most useful: they navigate sclerotic bureaucracies, locate
         | the people who know the answer, and then present the answer to
         | decision-makers in a way that cuts through organizational
         | politics and saves executive face.
         | 
         | Is this not a description of a successful middle manager inside
         | the org as well?
        
           | primax wrote:
           | The middle manager has the opposite set of incentives. They
           | want to solidify and grow their position inside the company,
           | which often isn't in line with what is the best outcome for
           | the company. This is the principal agent problem and is the
           | root cause of this issue.
        
         | RC_ITR wrote:
         | I also think any "Mechanical Turk but we need over-achieving
         | Ivy League educated 25 year olds to actually do it" tasks are
         | also very well served by consultants.
         | 
         | Conducting surveys, combing through massive data, etc.
        
         | nness wrote:
         | Very spot on -- consultants are able to navigate the
         | bureaucratic structure within an organisation to deliver work
         | that the orgnaisation cannot navigate itself.
         | 
         | I've worked a decade in technology consulting. 10 years ago the
         | client had no idea what they needed -- apps, e-commerce,
         | digital self-service were all new concepts. Now, organisations
         | are already equipped with smart people who know the answer --
         | but sometimes you just need to catalyse change when you can't
         | do yourself.
         | 
         | The existence of consultancies, or agencies in the
         | creative/marketing side for that matter, isn't a failure of an
         | organisation -- not always at least. Sometimes its simply
         | becasue the organisation has created a structure which works
         | very well in one set of circumstances and very poorly in
         | others.
         | 
         | (There is a reason why big tech, for all its expertise, has a
         | roster of outside ad agencies who do development and
         | deployments of their non-core services ... it's just faster to
         | have agencies do web dev than setting up internal teams. You
         | get a few agency devs set up on google3, and you've got
         | yourself a billable pipeline...)
        
         | Anticlockwise wrote:
         | This is true of the big name consultants where they're just
         | sending new Ivy grads into the org. Small consultancy shops can
         | be really useful to smaller orgs when: 1. The consultants are
         | ex or current operators who actually know something 2. Those
         | smaller orgs can't afford that level of talent full time.
        
         | FrustratedMonky wrote:
         | After being on the inside and outside. Can confirm.
         | 
         | For decades on the inside I was pissed that we paid consultants
         | since we already knew what to do.
         | 
         | Now being a consultant. I see this is true. The main thing we
         | bring is just aggregation and bodies. (and someone to blame).
         | But hate being apart of it. Really the customers should staff
         | up some and do their own internal consulting.
         | 
         | Large corporations should just die, they are not efficient, not
         | innovative, they are just a large pooling of capital that takes
         | on its own life and feeds on humans.
         | 
         | The entire system is MOLOCH.
        
           | smokefoot wrote:
           | Some truth to this (minus the ritual child sacrifice).
           | However it's hard to do complex ambitious things like
           | manufacturing semiconductors or designing consumer laptops in
           | a small company. Big problems demand a big organization and
           | increasingly they're what drives our economy.
           | 
           | The lived experience inside big companies is bad and getting
           | worse. Consultants are a symptom of this, but I think the
           | root cause is an insatiable demand for earnings growth and
           | productivity which is basically a force of nature at this
           | point. The alternative is deindustrialization or some
           | rethinking of the social contract.
        
         | divbzero wrote:
         | > _They are institutionally incapable of finding the already-
         | existing answer within themselves._
         | 
         | Or sometimes, as OP mentions, they have the answer already but
         | need consultants for political cover to implement the solution.
        
         | mousetree wrote:
         | As a former McKinsey consultant this is very true. Most of the
         | time the work was just cutting through the bureaucracy,
         | interviewing people, getting all the data, synthesising it and
         | present it back.
         | 
         | To be fair though, once in a while there were some cases where
         | a client genuinely did not have the required expertise in house
         | or needed a solution quicker than their in-house teams could
         | deliver.
        
         | quickthrower2 wrote:
         | I think there can be times were a consultant is useful to a
         | small org. For example when using or investigating a technology
         | they have no experience in yet it might be faster to get a
         | consultant to help. Or trying to get compliance with some
         | regulation or standard.
        
         | manmal wrote:
         | I agree with most of your points, and would like to point out
         | that the "client" is not a single person or organism, but just
         | a lot of people. Just as the internet already contains all the
         | answers in it, you might need a search engine (or LLM) to find
         | them. Crawling the web or the org is grunt work that you might
         | have no time for.
        
       | throw1234651234 wrote:
       | I am a software "consultant". In reality, I just end up an FTE on
       | a project for 2-4 years. Definitely self-complimenting, but
       | that's what happens if you actually do your job until the company
       | grows enough to finally replace your team with 10 teams.
        
       | nickelcitymario wrote:
       | The same holds for marketing and advertising, which makes sense
       | if you consider an agency to be a consultancy.
       | 
       | The pattern I've seen repeated everywhere: A genuinely
       | knowledgeable expert sells their expertise via online content,
       | books, and seminars. This attracts the clients. The expert will
       | attend a few key client meetings. But then, unbeknownst to the
       | client, they disappear and leave the work to juniors.
       | 
       | This is so ubiquitous that, earlier this year, I decided to
       | change my career aspirations. I'd long wanted to be an agency
       | leader, but the pattern above was repeated at every successful
       | agency I came across, and it's not something I can stomach any
       | longer.
       | 
       | So, I decided to put myself out there as the expert. I write a
       | newsletter. I published a book. I'm pursuing speaking
       | engagements. Just like the other consultants do.
       | 
       | However, I don't pass my clients onto anyone else. They're hiring
       | me. They were sold on my expertise, so my expertise is what
       | they're going to get.
       | 
       | When a project grows too big for one person to handle, or when
       | there are aspects of the work that don't justify my high hourly
       | rate, I transparently inform my clients of my intention of
       | bringing on freelancers for those aspects. It's all done out in
       | the open.
       | 
       | And while I do charge a markup on the work my subcontractors do
       | on my behalf, it works out to far less than my hourly rate, and
       | my clients are fully aware of the markup being charged and what
       | value I'm providing in return (i.e.: supervision).
       | 
       | All of which is to say: I think consultants can provide
       | incredible value. (I know, I know... a consultant who believes on
       | consulting. Shocking!) But you do have to be careful, and oddly
       | enough, the bigger and more reputable the consulting firm, the
       | less I would trust them. The business rewards bad players.
        
         | moonchrome wrote:
         | You're still overseeing other subcontractors. My next step is
         | likely in a similar direction but I want to start out with a
         | couple of former colleagues in more of a partnership role.
         | 
         | IMO being responsible for other people is tiring and
         | unrewarding, I just want a structure to tackle interesting
         | projects without a middleman.
        
           | ghaff wrote:
           | You run into scalability limits pretty quickly. Unless you
           | are truly the world expert on weird ball bearing failures or
           | whatever. Or can genuinely speak or do consulting days that
           | clients will line up to pay you $20K+ per day to do. (And
           | even that isn't all that much absent a pretty full dance
           | card. Just how the math works.)
        
           | nickelcitymario wrote:
           | > IMO being responsible for other people is tiring and
           | unrewarding, I just want a structure to tackle interesting
           | projects without a middleman.
           | 
           | You're not wrong, but that's also only a problem to you, not
           | the client. So it's not an ethics question, but a matter of
           | what you enjoy doing. All the power to you if you sort that
           | out.
           | 
           | If I put myself in the shoes of my clients: They want their
           | problems to be solved in a cost-effective way. They don't
           | mind paying a premium for genuine expertise, because they see
           | the value. But they WOULD have a problem paying that premium
           | if it turned out that I was quietly passing on the work to
           | people without the same expertise.
           | 
           | Most projects don't need expertise for every aspect, or can't
           | justify the budget needed for true expertise at each level.
           | 
           | For example, let's say you're building a website. There are
           | several functions involved in that:
           | 
           | - Planning
           | 
           | - Information Architecture
           | 
           | - Copywriting
           | 
           | - Design
           | 
           | - Front-End Development
           | 
           | - Back-End Development
           | 
           | - Infrastructure
           | 
           | If your client is a major corporation, there's an argument to
           | be made for expertise at every one of those levels. So they
           | pay for that expertise. But what's galling is how rarely they
           | actually receive that expertise, because even though they get
           | face time with the experts, the work is being done by
           | juniors, often without the client's awareness.
           | 
           | If your client is a small company, the problem isn't with
           | getting the expertise they paid for, but with only paying for
           | the expertise they actually need.
           | 
           | The advice I give to my clients is to focus on the planning
           | and copywriting, because those, in my opinion and experience,
           | are what make the biggest impact on whether or not your
           | website will be an effective sales tool for your company.
           | Invest there first, and if you need to hire juniors for the
           | rest, hire juniors for the rest. Or hire me and I'll hire the
           | juniors so you don't need to worry about it.
           | 
           | What agencies and consulting firms do, however, is charge
           | expertise-level rates for every aspect of the project, even
           | though 80% of it is being done by junior-level people. This,
           | to me, is dishonest, and is what I'm trying to avoid as a
           | consultant.
        
       | ulu21 wrote:
       | I worked at an MBB for a few years. With CS background, mostly on
       | digitalization topics.
       | 
       | Never before did I spend so much energy into truly trying to
       | solve the problems our clients had. More than once, our
       | recommendation was to go along with an idea that was already
       | present within their organisation (presented sharply and as
       | factual as possible).
       | 
       | But it also happened that we recommended going a completely
       | different way to whatever their CEO, the VPs, middle managers or
       | employees wanted, because we discovered they were so entrenched
       | in their way of thinking. I am grateful to have had the privilege
       | to do this work.
        
       | hdicke wrote:
       | [flagged]
        
       | literalnorth wrote:
       | Small consultants, like me, are a world apart from what is
       | otherwise an accurate depiction of big consulting. My firm and
       | many of my friendly competitors, work on specific questions or
       | projects - do it cheaply, quickly and within scope.
       | 
       | Sometimes you need the resources size brings to the project, but
       | absent mergers, migrations and enterprise software launches -
       | small consulting is probably the better choice.
       | 
       | Also, the same can be said of big law and big accounting - albeit
       | on the legal side senior partners often bring more value.
        
         | extr wrote:
         | Small consultants can be worth their weight in gold, it's
         | unfortunate the stereotypical experience with big firms colors
         | the perception of the entire engagement model. Particularly for
         | niches where you have no experience or existing best practices.
         | Simply having someone in the room who has seen a half dozen
         | solutions to XYZ and knows the common pitfalls is worth the
         | cost, let alone the actual labor/execution.
        
           | datavirtue wrote:
           | I'm a partner in one of these firms, clients know they can
           | hire a small team of us and turn us loose (literally their
           | secret weapon). We will gather requirements, apply our domain
           | knowledge to refine processes, and build a complete product
           | before the business can even work out the high level
           | agreements. If this is even possible with a body shop, it is
           | not, then you need to tell them every single thing that needs
           | considered and implemented. We just run with it and get it
           | done. Our rate is too low...about 20-30% higher than the
           | "body shops."
        
       | gustavus wrote:
       | So after years of being an engineer there is a part of me that is
       | entranced by the idea of being a quick talking, sharp suited
       | business consultant. Anyone whose been one of those "management
       | consultants" have any advice for moving from tech to get picked
       | up by one of the big firms?
       | 
       | EDIT: As for the why, I've been working as an engineer at large
       | organizations so long I figure it might be nice to be on the
       | other side of the consulting table and be considered an "expert"
       | instead of the obnoxious "human resource" constantly whining
       | about obnoxious reality. It get's tiring, and it seems nice to be
       | one of the slick suited bad guys.
        
         | debacle wrote:
         | It is only glamorous to other people. There is an enormity to
         | being the Jon Hamm that takes a toll. You are playing an
         | archetype in a three act play.
         | 
         | Being picked up by a big firm is easy, they are always hiring.
         | Once you're in, you can pivot into the sales process,
         | especially if you can hunt your own kills.
        
         | bequanna wrote:
         | Find someone in your network who already works there and get
         | them to refer you for an open position.
        
         | crazygringo wrote:
         | From what I know, they mostly hire people at select elite
         | campuses who are graduating from either their bachelor's, MBA,
         | or PhD program. They hold recruiting events and you show up.
         | 
         | I believe it's quite difficult to get in any other way, but I'd
         | be curious if anyone knows people who were working at another
         | job and simply applied and got interviewed and a job.
        
       | tootie wrote:
       | This is Big 4 consulting at it's finest. I saw Accenture and
       | McKinsey fleece a lot of big companies and government agencies
       | with these tactics. Some were downright underhanded and
       | deceitful.
       | 
       | There is also a world of actual expert consulting. I worked in
       | this space for a long time and while we definitely sniffed for
       | opportunities to increase our scope we mostly did it by building
       | reputation and delivering exceptional work. It's really, really
       | hard to tell the difference from a pitch though.
        
         | spicebox wrote:
         | Neither Accenture nor McKinsey are Big 4. The Big 4 are PwC,
         | EY, KPMG, and Deloitte. Despite what the name suggests they
         | aren't actually the top consulting firms (the name comes mostly
         | from their accounting work.The three consulting firms, at least
         | in terms of cost/prestige, are McKinsey, BCG, and Bain (MBB for
         | short).
        
           | darig wrote:
           | [dead]
        
       | Joel_Mckay wrote:
       | I am sure the authors contribution will be missed. ;)
       | 
       | 1. Consultants form long-term support relationships out of
       | necessity, as training existing staff without them leaving for
       | higher paying positions is sometimes impossible. There is a wide
       | set of circumstances that make this true.
       | 
       | 2. Savvy people that "middleman" their services have already
       | failed their integrity check. You can be sure a "Turtles All The
       | Way Down" project plan will lead to cascade failure, or be resold
       | into a dozen other firms within a year.
       | 
       | 3. Risking any project above 12% of annual revenue means your
       | company will likely be driven into the ground eventually (applies
       | to both ends of the deal). Most probably still think that a
       | company with a $7.4B market cap won't still try to short you the
       | last installment after deployment... lol... most corporations put
       | professional bandits to shame. IP theft, piracy, and blackmail...
       | you may find international business is not for fools and or
       | idealists.
       | 
       | 4. posting 87.4% LLM machine learning garbage articles will
       | potentially earn you a plagiarism copyright strike or worse
       | 
       | "Just cause you got the monkey off your back doesn't mean the
       | circus has left town." (George Carlin)
        
       | spicebox wrote:
       | As someone with firsthand experience at a "top" consulting firm
       | this article is pretty accurate, albeit with a definite negative
       | slant. A couple parts that really ring true for me are:
       | 
       | > The work will mostly be done by clever but pimply
       | 20-somethings, armed with two-by-two matrix frameworks ... What
       | they lack in wisdom will be made up for in long hours.
       | 
       | The structure of consulting firms is that a partner (who does
       | actually have a lot of experience with the industry) will "sell"
       | the work to the client and oversee the team that actually does
       | the work. Partners will sell multiple cases at a time and most of
       | time is spent doing sales so most of the work is done by the
       | consulting team with some guidance from the partner. The
       | consulting team will be comprised of a couple of consultants 1-3
       | years out of undergrad and couple of consultants 1-3 years out of
       | their MBA and a manager who has maybe 5 years of consulting
       | experience. Usually none of them will have any specific domain
       | knowledge.
       | 
       | > Question everything
       | 
       | Since most of the work is done by (nearly) fresh grads they won't
       | have a lot of specific industry experience. At the same time it's
       | hard to find information on the obscure topics they're
       | researching so the actual information they find will be iffy.
       | Sometimes it will even be made up (they'll tell the client it's
       | based on "industry experience" or something but it was probably
       | invented by 23 year old in excel). Regardless the information
       | will be presented to the client as rock solid and scientific
       | (with maybe a little disclaimer at the bottom)
       | 
       | In short: The people you're talking to aren't the people who are
       | doing the actual work, The people who are doing the work have no
       | industry experience And the numbers they're basing their analysis
       | on are probably whatever they found on google.
       | 
       | I know this comment sounds really critical but I do think there
       | is some value in consultants and they are really good at
       | structuring out a problem but the analysis they do is probably
       | 75% accurate at best
        
         | chiefalchemist wrote:
         | I've seen this as well. And while not defending such practices,
         | how much experience do the consultant worker-bees need when
         | much of what they gather come from the staff of the hiring
         | company?
         | 
         | That is, these consulting firms get called in more because
         | office politics and organization dysfunction is high, too high.
         | The fees aren't so much for expertise per se, but a stupidity
         | tax on the hiring company that lacks the leadership and
         | management to get out of its own way.
         | 
         | Put another way, these consulting firms don't hire themselves.
         | The fact that they do get so much work is more of a reflection
         | of how weak and rudderless some Big Incs actually are, than the
         | strengh of the snake oil sells.
        
           | jncfhnb wrote:
           | Mostly this. Whenever you hear someone say "I've been telling
           | them to do X for years", you have to keep in mind that the
           | value of the consultant is not to come up with the idea to do
           | X, but to tell them to listen to you.
        
         | meetingthrower wrote:
         | It is satire, not actually written by a consultant. This is the
         | humor page at the end of the economist. But the fact that it is
         | accurate actually does make it funny, if a bit trite.
        
           | spicebox wrote:
           | Like most good satire it's based on reality
        
             | [deleted]
        
           | whimsicalism wrote:
           | > This is the humor page at the end of the economist.
           | 
           | Isn't this just a Bartleby article? Their column on
           | management
        
         | conductr wrote:
         | In my experience, this is all disclosed
         | (partner/manager/associate). Pretty much any proposal I've seen
         | from the top firms includes a cost estimate built by using
         | hours x rate for each respective job title and often further
         | broken down by stage of the project. Time and material bids are
         | most common so you should be asking for this up-front, I
         | actually view it as a bit of a red flag if they don't
         | voluntarily disclose/bid it this way (eg. if I'm paying for
         | time, I need to know how much time is being planned for and by
         | which rate level).
        
           | squirrel6 wrote:
           | In reality, we would usually take the value-based fee (how
           | much we think it's worth) and then allocate it down to scope
           | bullets, which are also usually very vague.
        
           | smokefoot wrote:
           | The more expensive the services, the less likely you are to
           | get a bid in this format.
        
             | squirrel6 wrote:
             | This is very true. The more ambitious the scope is, the
             | more difficult it is to provide a bid in that format. Also,
             | expensive engagements are priced on perceived value anyway.
        
             | conductr wrote:
             | Very true. I regularly get it on $500k-$2m projects, that's
             | probably considered small. Of course it's caveated to hell
             | with talk of "projection", "risk", etc. But that's part of
             | my job is asking questions so I can anticipate whether they
             | can execute on this or if it's perhaps some ambitious low
             | bidding techniques.
             | 
             | FWIW, I also don't work in tech.
             | Finance/accounting/management consultants are my world. I
             | could definitely see how software/tech is more ambiguous by
             | it's very nature.
        
         | jeron wrote:
         | >In short: The people you're talking to aren't the people who
         | are doing the actual work, The people who are doing the work
         | have no industry experience And the numbers they're basing
         | their analysis on are probably whatever they found on google.
         | 
         | this has always been the most mindboggling thing about
         | consultants. I have a few friends working as consultants and
         | occasionally when they discuss cases, I always think to myself,
         | "who on earth are you to advise them about so-and-so management
         | when you literally just graduated college a year or two ago?"
        
           | spicebox wrote:
           | In defense of consulting the "sales pitch" on consulting is
           | that the people on top, the partners and managers, have the
           | industry experience to guide the more junior employees who
           | don't have experience but have good analytical skills. How
           | true that is is up to interpretation but that's the steel man
           | version
        
           | simmonmt wrote:
           | The value is that (ideally) they've asked around and figured
           | out how half a dozen peer firms do what you're struggling
           | with. So while they may not have solved your management
           | problem personally, they can give you an idea of what's
           | worked for your peers without all the icky industrial
           | espionage and antitrust violations you'd need to find it out
           | yourself.
        
             | spicebox wrote:
             | It's not espionage, it's an expert network!
        
           | neilv wrote:
           | I had a similar reaction, the first time I heard a graduating
           | CS undergrad say that they were going into management
           | consulting: "But you don't know anything yet..."
           | 
           | But I guess it's not that different from the new grads who
           | are instantly called Software Engineers.
           | 
           | Some percentage will rise to quality work, through
           | mentoring&training, effort, and experience... and quickly
           | earn the title.
           | 
           | And some percentage will go through the motions... and still
           | get paid lots of money.
        
         | ghaff wrote:
         | The one time I dealt with KcKinsey, the partner was pretty
         | sharp, one of the associates was as well, and the other, well,
         | more arrogant than justified.
         | 
         | Overall, in retrospect, the experience was... not terrible.
         | 
         | We answered a lot of questions, did a lot of education. They
         | produced a bunch of spreadsheets that kept the business
         | planning people occupied (a good thing). And they basically
         | validated to the senior management that the product managers
         | and related advising on strategy were on the right track.
         | Expensive, yeah. But it's not always the worst thing to get an
         | external sanity check.
        
           | classichasclass wrote:
           | We had a McKinsey consultant team at a large governmental
           | agency I was contracted to as an SME. Scope creep was a daily
           | threat with them; they were always trying to get into another
           | subline in the business and set up a new basecamp there as
           | work faded elsewhere. The worker bees were earnest but had
           | little or no domain-specific experience, and worked off
           | obviously pre-fabricated steps that were carefully calibrated
           | to emit "just enough" progress -- but not too quickly. I
           | remember advising higher-ups we needed to get off that train,
           | but the problem was the agency was far too shorthanded and
           | relied on them for even basic operational tasks instead of
           | higher-level conceptual ones, thus making them essential, and
           | their management almost certainly knew it. I moved onto
           | another opportunity and I have no doubt they're still there
           | in some capacity.
        
           | frognumber wrote:
           | I would recommend a good psychic for this -- someone skilled
           | at cold reading. You will receive even better validation and
           | a similarly reliable "external sanity check."
           | 
           | If I were in Europe, I'd leave it at that. For the Americans,
           | it's important to dot the i's and cross the t's, so: An art
           | of the industry is telling people what they want to hear.
           | That gets you hired again. Consultants are no good as an
           | external sanity check.
           | 
           | They are great for taking the blame for decisions you had
           | planned on making.
        
             | ghaff wrote:
             | Internal people with their own biases and investments are
             | always right. Of course.
        
           | squirrel6 wrote:
           | Thanks for sharing your experience. Agree with this last
           | paragraph 100% -- I would also highlight that part of the
           | value consultants provide is in helping senior management cut
           | through politics to actually solve problems and encourage
           | cross-functional cooperation.
        
       | canvascritic wrote:
       | Having been in the trenches of various startups and bigcorps, and
       | having interfaced with multiple consultants along the way over
       | the decades, there's an insidious pattern I've observed,
       | especially over the last 10 years. Consultants, no matter how
       | polished their decks or refined their methodologies, often seem
       | to be selling a form of abstracted advice. They've taken a page
       | out of the growth hacker / patrick mckenzie playbook, but without
       | the authenticity nor the qualifications to back up their advice:
       | commoditizing broad-strokes strategies and repackaging them for a
       | premium.
       | 
       | And there's the glaring detachment from day-to-day operations.
       | Consultants offer overarching guidance while skipping the nuance
       | 
       | There's also this consistent overemphasis on bigcorp-style "best
       | practices" checklists. In the world of startups, where innovation
       | and disruption are celebrated, these canned best practices can be
       | the antithesis of genuine growth. As someone smarter than me once
       | said, startups flourish not by following the well-trodden path,
       | but by blazing their own.
       | 
       | Perhaps most frustrating about consultants is the temporal nature
       | of their involvement. The transient "parachute in, advice,
       | parachute out" / garbage in - garbage out strategy leaves
       | startups grappling with the real-world implementation of
       | sometimes nebulous strategies, and many organizations in utter
       | shambles if allowed to run amoc
       | 
       | To be clear, i'm not branding all consultants under this shadow,
       | and this might be a bit harsh after some recent negative
       | experiences. There are some genuinely talented individuals doing
       | consulting work and some who genuinely add value. But the
       | increasing commoditization of startup advice and the
       | corporatization of the field, where every consultant seems to
       | have a canned playbook, does make one wonder: at what point does
       | advice become noise?
       | 
       | Also, for those who've found genuine value in consultants or who
       | haven't noticed these trends I described, would love to hear your
       | counterpoints. Maybe I am just stuck on the dark side of the moon
        
       | archo wrote:
       | https://archive.is/Slqwj
        
       | [deleted]
        
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