[HN Gopher] Judge denies HP's plea to throw out all-in-one print...
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Judge denies HP's plea to throw out all-in-one printer lockdown
lawsuit
Author : galaxyLogic
Score : 112 points
Date : 2023-08-13 19:23 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theregister.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theregister.com)
| djmips wrote:
| I threw mine on the ground a la Office Space when faced with that
| situation and a deadline. Cathartic.
| sillywalk wrote:
| I wonder if it's cheaper to just buy a new ink-jet printer
| instead of refilling? Also all this printer lock-down bs should
| be flat out illegal.
| kyrra wrote:
| Check out the Epson Eco tank. There is no cartridge with a
| microchip. You just fill the ink tank on the printer with
| bottles, so if third parties can make it for cheaper than Epson
| it'll work just fine.
| karaterobot wrote:
| I believe the ink cartridges that come with (some) new printers
| aren't close to full size, so you wouldn't be getting a full
| set of new ink cartridges with every purchase. I would
| speculate that if they went to that length, they probably
| calculated the break even point for the price of cartridges vs.
| the price of a new printer. My guess would be no, but it would
| be very funny if that was wrong.
| TuringNYC wrote:
| >> I wonder if it's cheaper to just buy a new ink-jet printer
| instead of refilling?
|
| Unless you are printing color, a Brother laser is the way to
| go. I purchased my printer 5yrs ago and purchased only a single
| toner replacement over the years. Best no-nonsense purchase
| ever.
| ghaff wrote:
| I actually noticed last night that I need to replace my
| Brother toner cartridge. But I think it's been a few years
| since I just gave the current cartridge a bit of s shake :-)
| mnw21cam wrote:
| And if you _are_ printing colour, then a Brother ink-jet isn
| 't a ridiculously stupid way to go either. I have a Brother
| DCP-J4120DW, about 7 years old. It sat unused for about 3
| years, and just took a few head cleans to get it going again.
| Now it prints two sides every couple of weeks, whenever I do
| click&collect at the local supermarket. Ink was last bought
| more than a year ago.
| pxeger1 wrote:
| Just to contravene consensus: I have an HP laser MFP bought in
| 2021(?) and the ink is perfectly affordable and I've had no DRM
| issues
| devsegal wrote:
| That's amusing - I initially read this as "Judge denies Harry
| Potter's plea to throw out all-in-one printer lockdown lawsuit."
| tomas789 wrote:
| I bought an old HP LaserJet 2015 ages ago. Together with two 7000
| pages toners for about 100USD. It just works. I can lea e it for
| two years, than plug in the USB cable and it jist spits out
| pages. This is how printers should be.
| WWLink wrote:
| I've owned 2 shitty HP inkjets and used countless more.. going
| all the way back to the deskjet 500...
|
| enough to know I'd never buy anything with an HP logo ever
| again. I don't care how good their laser printers are. They can
| fuck right off.
|
| I'm not even sure I feel that great about their laserjets lol.
| Every time I came across one in school or college they'd have
| issues with goofy rollers causing paper jams.
| pessimizer wrote:
| Inkjets are just an entirely different thing, and they all
| suck, no matter what brand. Older HP Laserjets are great, as
| long as they're not recent enough to have had their firmware
| updated to the next extortion scheme.
| RedShift1 wrote:
| If you need an inkjet printer, get an Epson Ecotank. Other
| printers with cartridges are really just e-waste.
| x3m157 wrote:
| I used to use Epson for this reason, but unless they've really
| polished their drivers I will be sticking with my HP. Yes, HP
| is more expensive and anti-consumer but when I want to print
| something it just works. My last Epson worked fine at first but
| soon got to the point that I needed to clean and reinstall the
| drivers nearly every time I wanted to print something.
| hashtag-til wrote:
| I jumped from HP printers long ago and bought some cheap Canon
| (yes I read the full article and saw Canon mentioned) as it was
| easier to buy cheap cartdriges. My usage is very low.
|
| What printer would be the good one to go these days?
| rodgerd wrote:
| I bought a black-and-white Brother laser circa 2000. It ran an
| ran until around 2020 when it finally broke (physically) in
| ways that weren't worth repairing. I bought a Brother 3770CDW
| colour laser to replace it. It has run and run with no
| problems.
|
| It just works. Even The Verge agree:
| https://www.theverge.com/23642073/best-printer-2023-brother-...
|
| "...it does not feel like the CEO of Inkjet Supply and Hostage
| Situations Incorporated is waiting to mug me..."
| to11mtm wrote:
| I'm kinda at the point where I think someone needs to kickstart
| an (Semi)open Solid Ink printer design.
|
| 1. The tech has been around long enough that any/all patents
| should be done with.
|
| 2. In general they are much more eco-friendly, the 'cartridge'
| is just a specially shaped wax block.
|
| 3. Prints wind up being extremely robust due to the wax ink, I
| remember when salespeople would spray photo prints with water
| and show it just run off.
|
| Of course, the challenges would be providing a sufficient
| filter for ink, any foreign particles can clog up the print
| heads after all, as well as making sure users understand that
| there are _processes_ in moving them.
| MostlyStable wrote:
| After I got burned by Brother institute toner cartridge DRM,
| I started looking into this. Apparently there are a _lot_ of
| patents around paper feed mechanisms etc. It would,
| apparently, be very expensive to design a new, non-
| infringing, non shitty paper feeding mechanism and the
| customer base would likely be extremely small, resulting in a
| sky high price.
|
| I'm no expert and can't vouch for any of the details, but
| this is what I encountered in multiple online discussions
| when I looked into it last.
|
| That being said, I'd probably be willing to pay up to $500
| for a simple black and white open source, open hardware laser
| jet printer, assuming that it worked as well (from a pure
| mechanical perspective) as current consumer grade printers.
| chrisweekly wrote:
| I couldn't be happier with my Brother HL-L3290CDW all-in-one. I
| posted this response to a similar question here 3 months ago:
|
| >"I got tired of the user-hostile shenanigans, bad software,
| low-quality output, and high TCO (5 or 6 HP or Canon devices
| over the years), finally came to my senses and bought a
| Brother. It "Just Works", is fast and quiet and reliable, does
| exactly what it's supposed to, and is in such stark contrast to
| the typically terrible printer UX it's almost funny."
|
| Coincidentally, just yesterday it warned of low black toner
| (for the 1st time) and I realized I actually believe it, given
| all the printing my family's done this year. I've read that it
| supports non-OEM cartridges, will find out for myself in a day
| or two.
| adhesive_wombat wrote:
| I have a DCP9020CDW that works just fine on the cheapest eBay
| toner going (under PS30 for a 5-cartridge CMYKK set with
| shipping included). At that price it's not really even worth
| trying a powder-bottle refill!
| smegsicle wrote:
| several models auto-updated a year or so ago to reject third
| party toner, so if your auto updater is off make sure to keep
| it that way
| MostlyStable wrote:
| I had my brother printer do this to me. I had been using a
| 3rd party toner cartridge and it just stopped working one
| day.
|
| Luckily I was able to remove the DRM chip off of the
| expended starter cartridge that I hadn't yet thrown out and
| swap it into the 3rd party toner cartridge which got it
| working again.
|
| I'm honestly confused at how they were able to do this. I'm
| pretty sure that several years ago HP lost a class action
| lawsuit about _exactly_ this kind of behavior. I 'd have
| thought that, having another company lose that lawsuit,
| there'd be a lawyer just waiting to jump on this. Is
| brother just too small market share to attract a class
| action lawsuit over?
| stefan_ wrote:
| Do people still print a lot? Those things went the way of the
| DVD drive for me.
|
| For the very rare occasion I do need to print something
| (exclusively, of course, things that could have been digitized
| 20 years ago), the one in the office works fine..
| ghaff wrote:
| What is an office? I joke obviously but I don't really have
| an office to go into any longer, I still need to print things
| out from time to time, and taking a 20 minute drive to
| Staples is pretty suboptimal for something I can otherwise
| take care of for not much money or effort at home.
| shiftpgdn wrote:
| Everyone seems to repeat that brother lasers are the way to go,
| but I've found that for home use (photos and documents) that
| the canon eco tank is superior to the brother is basically
| every way.
| ghaff wrote:
| It really depends on if you or family needs a color printer
| more than rarely. I have a Brother laser. I pretty gave up on
| my inkjet ink drying out.
|
| For (rarely) printing photos I just send them out.
| mcshicks wrote:
| I love my brother black and white laser printer. But I print
| infrequently. The problem I had with inkjets for years and
| years was dealing with clogging if I used them infrequently.
| Does anyone know if the color canon eco tanks work if you
| only print infrequently? Or do they clog? Some cursory
| searching sounds like clogging is still a problem for
| infrequent users.
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/printers/comments/kjxd45/do_these_n.
| ..
| bbarnett wrote:
| You'd think you could flush with water or some such after
| orint, as long as it was pure h2o (no minerals, etc) One
| flush after each print, but sadly, no manufacturer cares I
| guess.
| ghaff wrote:
| I expect the Venn diagram of people who own a printer but
| may not print for a few months at a time is fairly small.
|
| Every now and then I'd like to print out a map or
| whatever in color but it's just not often enough to
| maintain an inkjet printer.
| thatguy0900 wrote:
| Yeah, I only print every few months so I just use
| staples. Not sure why you would want a printer with such
| infrequent usage, you're not really saving money doing it
| yourself
| ghaff wrote:
| Driving to a Staples to print a recipe or some travel
| information every week or two sounds incredibly painful
| and inefficient (admittedly we're not talking months).
| (But I admit I don't like to be dependent on information
| on my phone for everything.) A laser printer connected to
| my computer at home is essentially free.
| graton wrote:
| I think that assumption is wrong. For me I have had my
| printer since 2011 and have printed less than 4,000
| pages. I often go months between print jobs. Sometimes I
| print, sometimes I scan, and sometimes I photocopy.
| ghaff wrote:
| Basically a ream of paper a year sounds like not a lot by
| office printer standards but not a trivial amount either.
| With travel, I probably can go months without printing,
| but I'd still say I print "regularly."
| chongli wrote:
| No I think it's actually the majority of printer users
| who go months without printing. The reason inkjets still
| exist is because these folks keep buying new ones when
| their old one clogs up (or the ink dries up completely)
| in between prints. They don't buy lasers because inkjets
| hit the very lowest price point.
|
| If everyone who did that just bought a brother B&W laser
| just once instead of re-upping their inkjet I bet
| anything the consumer market for cheap inkjet printers
| would disappear forever. Inkjets would only survive as a
| high end commercial colour technology.
| ghaff wrote:
| I suspect that there are a lot of people with kids in
| school and various other use cases where color printing
| isn't really optional. (Though color laser isn't all that
| unreasonable these days.)
| graton wrote:
| So you can not use the eco tank for 6 months and it will just
| work when you need to print again? That is why I like laser
| printers, I don't have to worry about head cleaning or
| clogged nozzles.
| RedShift1 wrote:
| The clogged print head is overestimated. I recently revived
| a Brother inkjet printer that was in storage for 4 years
| and after 3 or 4 head cleanings it was back in business.
| pbjtime wrote:
| Can someone calculate the price of ink consumed for those
| for cleanings?
| Spare_account wrote:
| But I have to clean the print heads every time I print
| (about once a month). I use up vast amounts of ink just
| keeping this thing working.
|
| I wish I'd bought a laser
| foobarian wrote:
| Get back to us when the absorbent cleaning sponge in the
| printer fills up :-)
| RedShift1 wrote:
| You can always use some isopropyl alcohol and cotton
| swabs and clean them yourself.
| r00fus wrote:
| I've been using inexpensive laser (monochrome) since 2010
| and haven't had to do any of this nonsense.
|
| Sometimes I don't even replace the toner when it
| complains; I just take toner out shake it and it keeps
| working (a bit lighter than usual)
| foobarian wrote:
| Laser is great but it doesn't solve the visiting grandma
| wanting to print photo album pictures.
| vel0city wrote:
| I just use an online printing service to mail the prints.
| At like 50C//ea mailed if I send a collection it'll take
| almost a thousand prints just to match the price of a
| decent photo printer. And even then most 4x6s printed at
| home still cost like 20C/-40C//ea each anyways, so even
| after a thousand prints I'll still probably be ahead in
| the end. And then I also don't have to store a photo
| printer and it's supplies in my house.
|
| So yeah, black and white laser multi-function and online
| printing services for me.
| robin_reala wrote:
| That's not remotely worth the hassle of a colour inkjet.
| Just decide on the photos together and upload them to a
| proper photo print service for delivery to her home.
| foobarian wrote:
| It sure is a hassle, but the grandma loves it so much it
| feels worth it. I gave up on HP in the past but I'm
| giving it another go now with an Epson eco tank. So far
| so good.
| lmm wrote:
| A monochrome home printer isn't worth the space it takes
| up IMO. I don't print very often, but when I do it's
| colour as often as not.
| eek2121 wrote:
| I bought a brother color laser 4 years and haven't had to
| change the toner yet. The toner was included with the
| printer. We have probably printed around 150 pages in that
| time span including a 6 page document today.
|
| No complaints. It just works. 3rd party toner also works
| should i need it.
| mh- wrote:
| Also, the toner cart it comes with is only half-full*, so
| when you _do_ eventually have to replace it.. you can
| expect the new one to last twice as long.
|
| * they're transparent about this, was just pointing out how
| efficient they are.
| Lio wrote:
| Brother laser printers are boring.
|
| Mine just sits there until the rare occasions when I need to
| print something.
|
| It's still on the original toner cart that came with it.
|
| I've not needed to install a printer driver for any of the 4
| platforms we've printed from on it.
|
| No photo storage, no ink drying out, ink subscription service
| and no multi-gig downloads before you can use it.
|
| A totally, wonderfully boring product. I wish I could buy
| more stuff like that.
| Moru wrote:
| My brother is so old I changed toners twice. Still no paper
| jams. Saw too many customers with HP printers with problems
| so stayed away from those.
| mh- wrote:
| My wife is a teacher and prints a lot of stuff at home. I
| have an MFC-2710 that I just had to replace the _drum_
| on. First time I 've had to do anything except toner. It
| just plugs along, sometimes going weeks-months without
| use. For the price (and lack of subscription hijinks),
| it's unbeatable.
| jwells89 wrote:
| I had a $200-ish Brother laser printer which worked great for
| a few years, but at some point semi-bricked itself. It no
| longer accepts print jobs from any source (USB, ethernet,
| wifi) and nothing seems to fix it, not even factory resets.
|
| There were some posts online that pointed to reflashing
| firmware fixing the problem but it wasn't clear how to do
| that and the required utility is apparently only distributed
| to licensed technicians.
| egberts1 wrote:
| Brothers printers get mentioned a lot BUT ...
|
| Be careful of some Brothers models as the ones to avoid have
| "Refresh" option.
|
| "Refresh" is just a way for a centralized Brothers server to
| monitor your printer and your local subnet (for what ever
| purpose they wanted). HP/Epson/Canon have few or no models
| without "Refresh" option, unless you spring for a more
| expensive business-class printer.
| seltzered_ wrote:
| Kinda wish this lawsuit also included the issue where many HP
| printers will not print a black and white page in situations
| where one has plenty of black ink but the color cartridges are
| empty.
| techhazard wrote:
| That's likely because it's unable to print the tracking
| dots[1].
|
| 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_Identification_Code
| warning26 wrote:
| According to that article, the tracking dots only apply for
| color printers/printouts, so they wouldn't apply in GP's
| scenario (out of color ink).
| gcr wrote:
| OP has a color printer...? Do you instead mean to say that
| tracking dots shouldn't be printed in B/W mode?
|
| I doubt that tbh - the wikipedia article above shows
| Reality Winner got caught printing (presumably) black/white
| NSA documents because the printer was able to print the
| color tracking dots.
| darth_avocado wrote:
| > Canon, another printer manufacturer that sells all-in-one
| devices, was sued in 2021 for the exact same reasons as Freund
| and McMath's suit against HP - that Canon all-in-ones disabled
| non-printing functions when ink was low. That case was settled
| late last year for an undisclosed sum.
|
| They should not allow settlements in cases like this. There
| should be a ruling and one that forces companies to not continue
| these bad practices.
| crazydoggers wrote:
| You can't not allow settlements. The plantiff brings the case.
| You can't tell a plantiff they are unable to withdraw their
| case, you'd be infringing on the rights of the plantiff.
|
| Yes it works against the creation of precedent, but the court
| system is meant to provide a resolution of dispute between
| parties. The creation of precedent is a side effect of that
| process, not it's primary goal.
|
| Edit: And just to end on a note of positivity, the courts
| aren't really the place to make changes like this anyhow, which
| is out of most people's hands. Instead we can lobby our
| Congress people etc to make laws that can end these practices
| (which is where most of our consumer protections have come
| from).
| the_lego wrote:
| On the other hand, there are laws against false advertising
| and (in this case) sabotage, where the action is illegal
| regardless of what a plaintiff thinks. If I went around
| offices and sabotaged their printers, the district attorney
| could prosecute me regardless of what the office owners
| thought (assuming they wouldn't lie and claim they authorized
| my sabotage).
|
| This case is _exactly_ the same. Don 't be fooled - despite
| HP's name on the printers, they're _not_ HP 's printers
| anymore - they _sold_ them, and have no more claim to them
| than I.
|
| Tangentially, and orthogonal to the issue of if settlements
| should be allowed, _undisclosed_ settlements should be
| banned. The public has a right to know what terms are reached
| through the threat of and with the sanction of the legal
| system. Because in a democracy, the public is ultimately
| responsible for reforming or maintaining that system, and how
| can they do that when they don 't know how it's being used?
| crazydoggers wrote:
| First the example you mention confuses civil and criminal
| proceeding. Sabotaging people's private property is a
| criminal act. District attornies bring criminal cases, not
| civil.
|
| The government could bring a civil suit as plantiff, (like
| the attorney general's office) but the government would
| have to show its been harmed. Perhaps for instance through
| cost of printers used in government offices, or if some
| specific statute was violated.
|
| Also regarding any settlement. If it's class action it's
| public. If it was from a private individual plantiff, then
| they have a right to privacy you can't just ignore.
| the_lego wrote:
| > Sabotaging people's private property is a criminal act.
|
| That's what happened here. Refusing to scan without ink
| is sabotage.
|
| > If it was from a private individual plantiff, then they
| have a right to privacy you can't just ignore.
|
| And the public has a right to transparency in the legal
| system. The rights are in conflict, and given the obvious
| risks of a black-box legal system, the right to
| transparency should prevail.
| crazydoggers wrote:
| You have a right to my private contract with someone?
| Because that's what a settlement is. What you're saying
| is that all contracts need to be made public? That seems
| like throwing the baby out with the bath water.
| eclipticplane wrote:
| What's stopping someone else from copying the lawsuit?
| darth_avocado wrote:
| Settlements have clauses usually that prevent the same
| litigation from happening again. Otherwise it's an infinite
| money glitch where people keep suing the same company again
| and again once it's proven they're willing to settle.
| crazydoggers wrote:
| You can always bring your own case as long as you were
| not a party to the settlement. Though for it to be
| successful you're probably going to have to show you
| suffered more than the average class member.
|
| For instance you buy a dishwasher that is faulty. There's
| a class action settlement, but for you, the dishwasher
| ruined your apartment and the neighbors downstairs. You
| can opt out and sue directly even if there's been a class
| settlement.
| crazydoggers wrote:
| If it's class action, then you have to not have
| participated.
|
| If you didn't, then you can bring your own suit. But in
| order to bring a suit you'd have to show you've been
| harmed, so you'd have to have been a customer of one of
| these printers.
| [deleted]
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(page generated 2023-08-13 23:00 UTC)