[HN Gopher] MDN can now automatically lie to people seeking tech...
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       MDN can now automatically lie to people seeking technical
       information
        
       Author : robin_reala
       Score  : 90 points
       Date   : 2023-06-30 21:05 UTC (1 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (github.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (github.com)
        
       | readyplayernull wrote:
       | Now if only an AI could explain to me those intractable terms and
       | contracts of BigCo's. /s
        
         | AceJohnny2 wrote:
         | https://tosdr.org has existed for years before the current LLM
         | wave
        
       | jancsika wrote:
       | I've never witnessed a github issue where the comments are
       | unanimous like this one. So far there isn't a single naysayer.
       | 
       | Could probably build fairly successful political party off of
       | this once-in-a-lifetime momentum. :)
        
       | thesnide wrote:
       | This just looks like the poster child of "hell is made of good
       | intentions".
       | 
       | It may look seemingly harmless at first, even a good idea.
       | 
       | But you'll seed doubt. As that will erode the value of the whole
       | site. Which was its main asset.
        
       | brudgers wrote:
       | * * *
        
       | joshka wrote:
       | @dang: Title is clickbait. Perhaps replace with something like:
       | 
       | Bug report: MDN's AI Explain feature generates false explanations
        
       | the-printer wrote:
       | This is not a good look for what is the de facto go-to (from my
       | perspective) reference guide for web development. I'm not too
       | crazy about MDN, but I expected better from them.
        
       | samtho wrote:
       | Given the clear nature of GPT to simply spew things that sound
       | "right", why is a technically proficient organization such as
       | this one jumping headfirst into integrating this with their
       | products where it is clear that is not yet up to this task?
        
       | gAI wrote:
       | Did the AI Explain button replace a more reliable feature?
        
         | cyanydeez wrote:
         | With placebos, the correct question is: does it displace more
         | efficacious procedures.
         | 
         | I'd say yes. Even if something is a placebo, it's ability to
         | displace better solutions is the problem
        
           | gAI wrote:
           | I don't use MDN. I'm just asking if they removed something
           | when they added this feature.
           | 
           | Characterizing LLMs as placebos or "designed to produce
           | gibberish" is inaccurate.
        
             | tough wrote:
             | They could for example only use LLM's to match query's and
             | use as source for responses like many other -docs as AI-
             | implementations do, wondering why Mozilla wouldn't do
             | exactly the same. as Hallucinations are a normal occurance
             | if not doing so.
        
               | gAI wrote:
               | I agree it's an odd implementation and seems bandwagon-y
               | in this context. Maybe it's the first step in a larger
               | plan?
        
             | cyanydeez wrote:
             | I compare them to placebos because they can be effective
             | and they can have zero active ingredient.
        
               | gAI wrote:
               | That's a fairer comparison that I read it as. I'd say
               | they're more like a pharmacy, usually dispensing
               | medicine. But we don't really know how half the medicine
               | works, and sometimes it hurts people.
        
             | mike_hock wrote:
             | Relevant username.
        
               | [deleted]
        
           | [deleted]
        
       | soared wrote:
       | I don't really understand viewpoints like these.
       | 
       | The submitter knows the AI isn't lying and the submitter is being
       | purposefully obtuse in order to drive controversy.
        
         | donmcronald wrote:
         | Hallucinating, lying. What difference does it make when it's
         | giving you an inaccurate, possibly made up explanation of an
         | API?
        
         | feoren wrote:
         | > The submitter knows the AI isn't lying
         | 
         | You've somehow internalized something as "obvious to everyone"
         | that's actually very wrong and dangerous about AI. _Of course_
         | the AI is lying. Or, perhaps a better term would be
         | "bullshitting", defined as "sounding convincing while having no
         | regard for the truth". By that definition, bullshitting is all
         | LLMs _ever do_.
        
           | gAI wrote:
           | That's an ungenerous way of describing direct access to
           | semantic space. gAI is creative. Rules-based AI is logical.
           | We need them both.
        
             | slotrans wrote:
             | It may be "ungenerous" but it's _accurate_. Unlike the
             | output of LLMs.
        
               | [deleted]
        
             | ImaCake wrote:
             | This is a good point. The problem is that most people
             | simply don't care about these nuances. If the AI
             | hallucinates or is wrong, then in their eyes it is lying.
             | 
             | It doesn't matter if that opinion is wrong because its
             | still the opinion that matters.
        
         | manquer wrote:
         | The accusation is not that AI is lying it is that MDN is,
         | especially given they are showing it at the same level as
         | curated source with reputation for high degree of quality
         | without full disclosure at error rates to expect
        
       | thorum wrote:
       | I actually think this feature would be fine if implemented
       | better. GPT-4 is perfectly capable of accurately explaining what
       | a short code block does if you prompt it with relevant
       | documentation... which MDN has in abundance, but isn't using, for
       | some reason.
       | 
       | The mistakes seem to be (1) using GPT 3.5 instead because it's
       | cost effective, even though GPT 3.5 has severe issues with
       | hallucination, and (2) not including context from the surrounding
       | article into the prompt.
       | 
       | Also, since I assume MDN has a finite number of things that need
       | explaining, why not let users mark an AI explanation as wrong,
       | and submit their own corrected versions?
        
       | drngdds wrote:
       | I can't wait for this fad of people trying to use LLMs for things
       | that require factual accuracy goes away (or the tech actually
       | gets there, I guess)
       | 
       | Transformer models are capable of absurd sci-fi miracles when it
       | comes to things that don't require truthfulness but this ain't it
        
       | sergiomattei wrote:
       | This is a heavily editorialized title.
       | 
       | It's just a feature that explains a web platform doc using LLMs.
       | 
       | They can be inaccurate sometimes, but as long as that's clear to
       | the end user (in this case, developers) I don't think that's a
       | problem. Heck, many of us do this day-to-day with ChatGPT.
       | 
       | In this case, the sin was not making the potential for
       | inaccuracies clear enough.
        
         | osullip wrote:
         | I cannot see anywhere that MDN say the explanation might be
         | wrong.
        
           | tough wrote:
           | Im pretty sure they use a vector storage database against
           | their docs/resources so when you query they can just parse
           | those sources and produce a free hallucination response to
           | it.
           | 
           | No need to make things up if you have the sources anyways.
        
             | missblit wrote:
             | The linked bug report has four examples of it being wrong.
             | And the bug reporter mentions there's no workflow to submit
             | corrections.
             | 
             | Also hallutination was probably the wrong word to use for
             | LLMs being incorrect since it might imply they could be
             | correct if they would only just focus on the right input
             | data rather than, say, simply not understanding complex
             | technical concents, but I guess that ship has sailed.
        
             | manquer wrote:
             | "Hallucination free" or "Free hallucination"?
             | 
             | The latter would be very different interpretation and some
             | here would probably agree with that accusation
        
       | geraldwhen wrote:
       | Imagine putting an LLM anywhere health, safety, or regulation are
       | involved. It would be engineering malpractice.
        
       | skilled wrote:
       | But I thought it was supposed to be my _Trusted Companion_ ...
       | That phrase had my eyes rolling
        
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       (page generated 2023-06-30 23:01 UTC)