https://github.com/mdn/yari/issues/9208

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MDN can now automatically lie to people seeking technical information
#9208

Open
3 tasks done
eevee opened this issue Jun 30, 2023 * 20 comments
Open
3 tasks done

MDN can now automatically lie to people seeking technical information
#9208

eevee opened this issue Jun 30, 2023 * 20 comments
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needs triage Triage needed by staff and/or partners. Automatically
applied when an issue is opened.

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@eevee
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eevee commented Jun 30, 2023 *
edited

Summary

MDN's new "ai explain" button on code blocks generates human-like
text that may be correct by happenstance, or may contain convincing
falsehoods. this is a strange decision for a technical reference.

URL

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/grid

Reproduction steps

as soon as i heard about this, i visited the first MDN article in my
address bar history (for the grid property), hit "ai explain" on the
first code block encountered (the syntax summary), and received the
following information:

    grid: "a" 100px "b" 1fr;: This value sets the grid template to
    have two rows and two columns. The first row has a height of 100
    pixels and the second row has a height of 1 fraction unit (1fr).
    The columns are named "a" and "b".

which is deeply but subtly incorrect -- this creates only one column
(more would require a slash), and the quoted strings are names of
areas, not columns. but it's believable, and it's interwoven with
explanations of other property values that are correct. this is
especially bad since grid is a complex property with a complex
shorthand syntax -- exactly the sort of thing someone might want to
hit an "explain" button on.

the generated text appears to be unreviewed, unreliable,
unaccountable, and even unable to be corrected. at least if the text
were baked into a repository, it could be subject to human oversight
and pull requests, but as best i can tell it's just in a cache
somewhere? it seems like this feature was conceived, developed, and
deployed without even considering that an LLM might generate
convincing gibberish, even though that's precisely what they're
designed to do.

and far from disclaiming that the responses might be confidently
wrong, you have called it a "trusted companion". i don't understand
this.

Expected behavior

i would like MDN to contain correct information

Actual behavior

MDN has generated a convincing-sounding lie and there is no apparent
process for correcting it

Device

Desktop

Browser

Firefox

Browser version

Stable

Operating system

Linux

Screenshot

No response

Anything else?

No response

Validations

  * [*] I have read the Community Participation Guidelines.
  * [*] I have verified that there isn't already an issue that
    reports the same bug to avoid creating a duplicate.
  * [*] I have checked that this is a concrete bug. For Q&A open a
    GitHub Discussion.

The text was updated successfully, but these errors were encountered:

 334 ambersz, unascribed, maxeaubrey, hirnsushi, lizard-business,
elliprime, MrLightningBolt, Rylius, krishean, diosmosis, and 324 more
reacted with thumbs up emoji  9 crackwitz, randomstuff, edgarogh,
Lewiscowles1986, nurdann, piotr-yuxuan, bob6664569, nicolas17, and
martok reacted with laugh emoji [?] 30 skyqrose, jackahenderson,
Nekkowe, Eragonfr, zaguragit, andy-j, lunaisnotaboy, mvsde, bdosorio,
k4y3ff, and 20 more reacted with heart emoji  8 K4rakara, alexisart,
Nekkowe, k4y3ff, lubelski, AMDAndy, tschoffelen, and edgarogh reacted
with rocket emoji  16 ShadowJonathan, hakamadare, drewcassidy,
alexisart, Johann150, Nekkowe, george-steel, wkleinhenz, Afif13,
johnsonjsyuen, and 6 more reacted with eyes emoji
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@github-actions github-actions bot added the needs triage Triage
needed by staff and/or partners. Automatically applied when an issue
is opened. label Jun 30, 2023
@MrLightningBolt
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MrLightningBolt commented Jun 30, 2023

Confirming. This "AI" snake oil is worse than useless for the reasons
described above; other examples are trivial to create. It makes MDN
worse just being there.

 147 Moth-Tolias, joshbrand, DavidBuchanan314, rtyler, arnemart,
ngoomie, gmalmquist, ZackBoe, f0x52, cgranade, and 137 more reacted
with thumbs up emoji
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@catleeball
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catleeball commented Jun 30, 2023

Generated code with out any human vetting for correctness and human
curation for relevance is a hazard since it can produce
plausible-sounding disinformation.

I strongly feel that the AI help feature is likely to cause damage
much more than it would possibly help.

 64 squili, hokaze, alexisart, anneke, ranok, EricE549X, flaviusb,
bgvaughan, mimuki, krishean, and 54 more reacted with thumbs up emoji
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@MrPetovan
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MrPetovan commented Jun 30, 2023

You don't explain code blocks using plausibly-sounding plain text,
you explain it visually by linking to a JsFiddle page with that code.

This is a deeply misled feature that will produce disinformation at
scale, like all other LLM applications.

 42 Nekkowe, desttinghim, eldang, toshokan, wingmatt, lunaisnotaboy,
wkleinhenz, k4y3ff, crackwitz, lazar-mitrovic, and 32 more reacted
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@Eragonfr
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Eragonfr commented Jun 30, 2023

    You don't explain code blocks using plausibly-sounding plain
    text, you explain it visually by linking to a JsFiddle page with
    that code.

I don't agree that linking to a fiddle is enough, you need plain text
explanation of what the code do. But the explanation need to be
peer-reviewed and fact checked. Not being some plausible garbage
generated by an AI.

 30 ambersz, toshokan, lunaisnotaboy, lunasorcery, bdosorio,
wkleinhenz, k4y3ff, crackwitz, SG101, Cellivar, and 20 more reacted
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@lifning
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lifning commented Jun 30, 2023

and it's hardly a isolated occurrence. this is pervasively impossible
to trust.
the AI incorrectly claiming that a given code example isn't valid CSS

 33 lunasorcery, chapmanjacobd, Ongion, jimj316, Afif13,
lunaisnotaboy, andywillis, kforney, SG101, JamoDevNich, and 23 more
reacted with thumbs up emoji  3 cassidyjames, nathansgithub, and
Lewiscowles1986 reacted with confused emoji
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@mandynicole
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mandynicole commented Jun 30, 2023

Releasing this alongside the long-awaited Play was also a choice. We
should be empowering the community to create examples built on MDN
itself.

 8 bdosorio, lunaisnotaboy, sprocklem, WhyNotHugo, bgvaughan,
BurnerWah, DagAgren, and kizu reacted with thumbs up emoji
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@Xkeeper0
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Xkeeper0 commented Jun 30, 2023

As another example, https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML
/Element/portal

From the page text (emphasis mine):

    A <portal> is similar to an <iframe>. An <iframe> allows a
    separate browsing context to be embedded. However, the embedded
    content of a <portal> is more limited than that of an <iframe>.
    It cannot be interacted with, and therefore is not suitable for
    embedding widgets into a document. Instead, the <portal> acts as
    a preview of the content of another page. It can be navigated
    into therefore allowing for seamless transition to the embedded
    content.

The "AI Explain" feature:

    <portal id="exampleportal" src="https://example.com/"></portal>

    The code example you provided is an HTML code snippet that
    demonstrates the usage of the element.

    The <portal> element is a new HTML element introduced in the
    HTML5.3 specification. It allows you to embed a remote document
    into your current document, creating a portal-like experience.
    In the code example, there is a <portal> element with an id
    attribute set to "exampleportal" and a src attribute set to
    "https://example.com/". The id attribute is used to uniquely
    identify the portal element, while the src attribute specifies
    the URL of the remote document that will be displayed within the
    portal.
    When the page is loaded, the browser will fetch the remote
    document specified by the src attribute and display it within the
    <portal> element. The remote document can be any valid HTML
    document, and it can contain interactive content such as forms,
    videos, or other web components.
    The <portal> element provides a way to seamlessly integrate
    remote content into your web page, allowing users to interact
    with it as if it were part of the current document. This can be
    useful for scenarios such as displaying live data from another
    website or embedding a third-party widget into your page.
    It's important to note that the <portal> element is still an
    experimental feature and may not be supported by all browsers.
    Therefore, it's recommended to check the browser compatibility
    before using it in production.

In this case, the AI explanation directly contradicts the page
itself!

 15 TheGLander, lunaisnotaboy, kforney, SG101, sprocklem,
sudoBash418, BurnerWah, cassidyjames, kissgyorgy, fournm, and 5 more
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@datarocks
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datarocks commented Jun 30, 2023

As someone who occasionally dips his toes in CSS when no one else is
available and a thing needs to be fixed, I depend on these docs to be
dependable. This is even more true today than it was in the past, as
LLM generated chum spreads across the web. Please keep MDN as a
trusted source of human generated developer documentation.

 12 colin-p-hill, dctucker, sudoBash418, makyen, Flimm, BurnerWah,
nathansgithub, bitmorse, fournm, DagAgren, and 2 more reacted with
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@patrickhlauke
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patrickhlauke commented Jun 30, 2023

This is both sad and deeply embarassing for the MDN team...

 6 makyen, nathansgithub, warpKaiba, fernandoacorreia, DagAgren, and
kizu reacted with thumbs up emoji
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@ericwbailey
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ericwbailey commented Jun 30, 2023 *
edited

The inclusion of this feature represents a great deal of risk in
folks' ability to learn code effectively, especially code where the
output explanation has the potential to perpetuate bias and
misunderstanding from the content the LLM model is sourced from.

I would also like to note the ethical and environmental concerns
surrounding how LLMs are constructed. It saddens me to see this
feature as a former MDN editor.

 13 sudoBash418, CrystalDave, dctucker, YtvwlD, BurnerWah, rgarner,
makyen, nathansgithub, mandynicole, fournm, and 3 more reacted with
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@avdi
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avdi commented Jun 30, 2023 *
edited

I didn't spend a decade trying to convince people to use MDN over the
shovelfuls of low-quality SEO-farming craptext on W3Schools, only for
them to be presented with shovefuls of low-quality AI craptext on MDN

 31 user24, AMDAndy, alexisvl, dwminer, viccie30, makyen, Flimm,
oinopion, robstolarz, bgvaughan, and 21 more reacted with thumbs up
emoji [?] 18 alexisvl, makyen, isomorpheme, eritbh, joshsleeper,
robstolarz, dctucker, nathansgithub, mandynicole, JoCa96, and 8 more
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@alensiljak
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alensiljak commented Jun 30, 2023

The next generation of AI will be trained on this. Just sayin'...

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@Nyumat
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Nyumat commented Jun 30, 2023

Considering the fact that MDN's "AI Help" feature is a semi-paid
service, this is a huge let down to both see and use.

This new feature claims to be powered by OpenAI's GPT 3.5, yet
ChatGPT is purely a language model, not a knowledge model. Its job is
to generate outputs that seem like they were written by a human, not
be right about everything.

In the context of web development as a whole, we cannot count on
LLM's to "facilitate our learning". I cannot understate how terrible
and drastic this blow to customer trust is. 

MDN has been one of the leading resources for aspiring and current
professional developers in the web world. This new beta "help"
feature is taking away from the integrity and trustworthiness of a
once fantastic site to learn from.

Thank you OP for opening this issue, MDN's team needs to be better.

 18 dwminer, AllRounderGamin, Flimm, Freeplayg, makyen,
airtower-luna, BurnerWah, rgarner, fournm, haarg, and 8 more reacted
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@dwminer
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dwminer commented Jun 30, 2023

I use MDN because it's a comprehensive and accurate source of
documentation with no fluff. I fail to see how LLM output prone to
egregious inaccuracies improves that. It dramatically weakens my
confidence in MDN and I fear that its inclusion will promote an
over-reliance on cheap but unreliable text generation.

 5 makyen, fournm, DagAgren, kizu, and fernandoacorreia reacted with
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@brndnmtthws
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brndnmtthws commented Jun 30, 2023

We've come full circle and we've learned nothing.

Clippy-letter

 2 LukeZaz and bohwaz reacted with laugh emoji  1 dos1 reacted with
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@aardrian
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aardrian commented Jun 30, 2023

Another example from the Accessibility concerns section of <s>: The
Strikethrough element which offers this CSS:

s::before,
s::after {
  clip-path: inset(100%);
  clip: rect(1px, 1px, 1px, 1px);
  height: 1px;
  overflow: hidden;
  position: absolute;
  white-space: nowrap;
  width: 1px;
}

s::before {
  content: " [start of stricken text] ";
}

s::after {
  content: " [end of stricken text] ";
}

The AI wraps up its explanation with this:

    Overall, this code creates a strikethrough effect by hiding the
    content of the "s" element and adding visible text before and
    after it.

That is demonstrably wrong. There is no demo of that code showing it
in action. A developer who uses this code and expects the outcome the
AI said to expect would be disappointed (at best).

That was from the very first page I hit that had an accessibility
note. Which means I am wary of what genuine user-harming advice this
tool will offer on more complex concepts than simple stricken text.

 5 fournm, DagAgren, patrickgrey, kizu, and nytpu reacted with
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@ericwbailey
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ericwbailey commented Jun 30, 2023

To @aardrian's point: Utilizing inaccessible code may legal
ramifications, to say nothing about the ethical problems of
restricting others' access. What risk and responsibilities does the
MDN incur if an organization incorporates inaccessible code
suggestions and advice provided by this feature?

 5 fournm, DagAgren, patrickgrey, dhasenan, and kizu reacted with
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@fenndev
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fenndev commented Jun 30, 2023

As a person working towards becoming a web developer, I trust MDN to
contain accurate, fact-checked information. For every minute this may
save someone, it would surely cost hours of troubleshooting for
another, especially newer developers who utilize MDN as a learning
and reference tool extensively. This is damaging both to the
developer community and the reputation of MDN as a trusted resource;
while I might not have extensive experience as a web developer, I
hope that a newbie perspective might also be helpful.

[?] 7 patrickgrey, AllRounderGamin, omentic, fournm, dwminer,
themainframe, and AMDAndy reacted with heart emoji
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@fernandoacorreia
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fernandoacorreia commented Jun 30, 2023

Deciding to implement this feature implies a fundamental
misunderstanding about what LLMs do. MDN users are looking for
authoritative, correct information, not for plausible-looking
autogenerated fiction. This puts the good judgment of MDN's team in
question.

 6 jrallsn, martok, themainframe, AMDAndy, makyen, and fournm
reacted with thumbs up emoji
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@AMDAndy
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AMDAndy commented Jun 30, 2023

I am warning my team about this feature and letting them know not to
trust it.

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20 participants
@avdi @fernandoacorreia @eevee @alensiljak @mandynicole @lifning 
@ericwbailey @patrickhlauke @MrPetovan @Xkeeper0 @datarocks @aardrian
@brndnmtthws @dwminer @AMDAndy @MrLightningBolt @Eragonfr @catleeball
@Nyumat @fenndev

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