[HN Gopher] Element is one of fourteen messaging apps blocked by...
___________________________________________________________________
Element is one of fourteen messaging apps blocked by Central Indian
Government
Author : prhrb
Score : 344 points
Date : 2023-05-05 09:15 UTC (13 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (element.io)
(TXT) w3m dump (element.io)
| 0xDEF wrote:
| Telegram and Signal are much more popular in India than many if
| not all of these apps.
|
| So why are they not included in this ban?
| jeroenhd wrote:
| This article:
| https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2023/05/01/14-messaging-ap...
| suggests that the ban has to do with some specific terror
| plot(s). If this is the true reason and the terrorists used
| neither Telegram nor Signal, that would be a good reason why
| one is banned and the other is not.
| kevincox wrote:
| They were so busy spreading a political message that they forgot
| to help the users. Sure, it sucks that Element was banned but
| they would highlight the fact that affected users can use other
| Matrix clients.
| mr_pinnen wrote:
| But they do mention this in the post.
|
| > We assume that this ban on Element is a result of a
| misunderstanding around decentralised and federated services
| such as Matrix (an open standard for real time communication).
| The Element app is just one of many apps that give access to
| the Matrix network. A simple parallel is that banning Element
| because it gives access to the Matrix network is the equivalent
| to blocking Google Chrome because it gives people access to the
| web, or Gmail because it gives people access to email.
| kevincox wrote:
| This implies it but isn't direct. I would have liked to see a
| specific callout to users telling them how to solve the
| problem they are having.
|
| Instead their are clues scattered around the post in
| messaging directed at political influence,not problem
| solving.
| [deleted]
| prmoustache wrote:
| how can you ban a client country wide?
| rvense wrote:
| Governments make these things called laws. If you don't follow
| them they have people with boots and clubs that can take your
| money, lock you away and/or just rough you up a little when
| they take your phone to look what's on there.
|
| They don't have to make it impossible to get the app, they
| might not even want to make it impossible! Because now instead
| of surveillance or not, dissidents (well, everyone) have the
| choice between surveillance and being a criminal that they can
| Protect and Serve(tm) at their discretion.
|
| This is what the politicians mean when they say the laws of
| mathematics are below the laws of the country, and they're
| absolutely right. Don't bring tech to a legal fight, you will
| lose.
| eimrine wrote:
| Actually we live in 2023 with all kinds of DPI / Great Firewall
| so every government considers citizens with an internet access
| as naughty children, with the corresponding appeal.
| jeroenhd wrote:
| Laws exist.
|
| As for banning things in practice: forcing ISPs to do IP and
| DNS level blocking as a start, combined with fining companies
| or imprisoning their legal representation if they do not comply
| with national laws. If IP blocking doesn't work, there are
| things like SNI inspection that can do the trick.
|
| If the business in question has no legal representation within
| the country, blocking payment providers and other services
| operating within the country from doing business with them is
| often an easy way to cut off access. This is probably not going
| to affect Element much, but if such restrictions come from a
| more economically influential trading bloc (USA, EU, etc.)
| international companies may be in more trouble.
|
| An example of this is trade with Iran; in many countries there
| aren't many noticeable sanctions, but doing trade will put you
| on the naughty list of the USA and that can be a significant
| problem with the American influence on things like payment
| providers and the internet.
| slashtab wrote:
| Instead of finding solution to to terrorism they keep banning
| aaps.
|
| Although I'm using element and it working fine.
| kranke155 wrote:
| This is not a terrorism problem come on.
| usrusr wrote:
| Heh, almost reads as if unlike in the West, Indian crooks are too
| clever to fall for crypto honeypots like those "anom" phones.
| mftrhu wrote:
| What does this have to do with Element - the reference client
| for the Matrix protocol, but still one amongst many - Briar - a
| peer-to-peer messaging app - or Mediafire, one of the oldest
| file hosting websites?
| xzax_tyagi wrote:
| They failed to hire a representative for the largest populated
| country on planet, now crying foul.
| goku12 wrote:
| The most populated country and the authorities still don't
| understand P2P, federation and multiple clients. What makes you
| believe that:
|
| - Element (the company) represents the entire federated network
|
| - Users can't access the network if just one point of contact
| is blocked?
|
| Official representation doesn't make sense for matrix, briar,
| etc.
| AHOHA wrote:
| When a government goes on banning certain apps/protocols/etc.,
| you know that these didn't provide what would compromise their
| users. It also indirectly implies that other apps indeed are
| either compromised or willing to provide any data, apps like
| whatsapp, signal, etc., funny part is I did say before -and got
| downvoted- that any app still uses a phone number as a form of
| identity/authentication should never be trusted, now you know
| why.
| DuckFeathers wrote:
| [flagged]
| achow wrote:
| Seems to be terrorism related and not isolated to Element:
|
| _The Indian government has blocked 14 messenger mobile apps that
| were used by terrorists in Pakistan to transmit information to
| Jammu & Kashmir._
|
| https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/centre-blocks-14-m...
| codethief wrote:
| Anyone know which other messenger apps are affected? The
| article (and the other one that the article refers to) don't
| say anything in this regard.
| azurenumber wrote:
| List of 14 Apps Banned in J&K by Central Government
|
| As per the source, the GoI has banned a total of 14 apps and
| they are as follows: Crypviser
| Enigma Safeswiss Wickrme Mediafire
| Briar BChat Nandbox Conion
| IMO Element Second line Zangi
| Threema
|
| From : https://www.mysmartprice.com/gear/full-list-
| of-14-messenger-...
| codethief wrote:
| Thanks, so Signal is not among them? Interesting. Or was it
| already banned before?
| Gigachad wrote:
| India is a clown show. They recently banned VLC for piracy.
| xNeil wrote:
| Not exactly. They banned VLC because a bunch of Chinese
| companies were spreading illegitimate versions of VLC
| disguised as the real package, and installing spyware
| alongside the media player.
|
| Not the best way to tackle the problem, but I think it's
| important to know exactly what happened. Also - I think the
| ban's gone - I just downloaded VLC yesterday. Probably
| because VideoLAN took the government to court.
| lightwin wrote:
| So they banned the original source after finding out that
| there were illegitimate versions of VLC disguised as the
| real package?
|
| How did it solve the problem? Don't you think that after
| they banned the original, there would have been even more
| illegitimate versions?
| xNeil wrote:
| Very valid point! They banned all VLC impersonators
| alongside VLC, I believe. Again - definitely not how you
| solve the problem. I was simply clarifying what had
| actually happened.
| harrymit907 wrote:
| That is exactly what the clown show is about. Say, some
| Russian hackers are spreading malicious versions of Chrome,
| so do you go about banning the legitimate Google Chrome. If
| the government doing that is not a clown I don't know what
| is.
| suyash wrote:
| This is a foolish argument, the government always try to
| contact the local representative of that organization so
| if this were to happen they would get in touch with
| Google and ask them to investigate why there is malware
| in Chrome, that would certainly be Google's
| responsibility and if not handled properly, deserves a
| ban.
|
| The most important thing country needs to do is to
| protect it's citizens and that is what India is doing.
| lightwin wrote:
| "clown show" means something not organized well, so it's
| not exactly a foolish argument. Why would you hold VLC
| creators responsible if there are third parties spreading
| fake versions of it, and what can VLC do about it, and
| how does it help banning the original version? Why they
| need to contact the "local representative of that
| organization" instead of catching/banning other illegal
| websites?
|
| So if someone creates few fake currency notes, will they
| ban all the original currency notes instead of catching
| the culprit?
|
| Oh well, on that note, I remembered they did ban all
| currency notes of Rs.500 denomination to fight
| corruption, and then released new notes of "Rs.2000
| denomination".
| [deleted]
| ftyhbhyjnjk wrote:
| 60% politicians hold criminal records. Most are illiterate.
| Almost all are super corrupt.
| aww_dang wrote:
| Politics rewards dishonesty. All of the incentives are
| there. What else can be expected?
|
| Of course, true believers in Democracy will say, "We'll
| just vote out the bad ones". How is that working out?
| pedrogpimenta wrote:
| As someone said, Democracy is bad but not as bad as the
| other options.
| fafzv wrote:
| I'll never get tired of saying it: politicians are the
| same as the citizens that vote them in. In India they
| won't vote out corrupt politicians because the citizenry
| is corrupt itself.
| Sai_ wrote:
| Give the country and its democracy some credit (Indian
| here).
|
| We've voted out charismatic leaders, we've voted in huge
| coalitions, we've ignored sympathy waves after political
| assassinations, power transfers have been uniformly
| peaceful since we gained independence.
|
| If this cultural/endemic corruption at work, I think most
| people in most countries would prefer this to whatever
| oligarchy, junta, theocracy, ruler-for-life-god-on-earth-
| ocrasy they suffer under.
| skinnymuch wrote:
| India should be copying China from the foundation --
| since Deng.
| Etrnl_President wrote:
| Sure, blame the corruption on the people; It certainly
| has nothing to do with a system based on extortion, with
| no incentives to perform the functions it was allegedly
| established for, and every incentive to extract as much
| revenue from the citizenry as possible without a
| rebellion.
| ir123 wrote:
| European citizens voted in genociders. According to this
| logic, europeans were also genociders
| SanderNL wrote:
| Let's just say education _might_ be an issue.
| fafzv wrote:
| It's cultural, and I'm not sure I agree that it's an
| issue. Different cultures behave in different ways.
| [deleted]
| isanjay wrote:
| I think there is some truth in this.
|
| Politicians distribute huge sums of corrupt money to poor
| and lower middle class population just before elections.
|
| And your average Indian would love to get a government
| job that has scope of corruption.
|
| All in all you have culture where corruption in
| normalized.
| alpaca128 wrote:
| > true believers in Democracy will say, "We'll just vote
| out the bad ones". How is that working out?
|
| Better than no democracy at all. I think anyone can see
| the problems with it.
| humanlion87 wrote:
| > Almost all are super corrupt.
|
| And do you think that is different from politicians in
| other countries?
| isanjay wrote:
| Yes. because on top of corrupt they are criminals most of
| them
| InCityDreams wrote:
| >And do you think that is different from politicians in
| other countries?
|
| You are not alone - it is kinda similar in other
| countries. The only thing worse than a politician is
| someone that voted for them.
| copper-float wrote:
| Wow, that is shocking.
| koollman wrote:
| did they use phones to communicate too ? they should ban that.
| And what about their voices ?
| throw101010 wrote:
| Has it ever been demonstrated that these bans actually hinder
| terrorists or criminals?
|
| It does feel like they would just move to the next app/protocol
| or even roll their own or use VPNs... so why are governments
| still penalizing 99.9% of the population which use these only
| to communicate normally (and use privacy protocols because they
| don't like the idea of being surveilled)?
|
| Are governments trying to funnel non-criminal people towards
| apps they can surveil completely to be able to control them
| even more? To what end?
| Etrnl_President wrote:
| Governments want to see the crazy people talk so they know
| whom they need to support and "catch" so they can justify
| their surveillance budgets.
| prmoustache wrote:
| >Some of the mobile applications that have been blocked include
| Crypviser, Enigma, Safeswiss, Wickrme, Mediafire, Briar, BChat,
| Nandbox, Conion, IMO, Element, Second line, Zangi, Threema, and
| others.
|
| > While investigating one of these channels, it was discovered
| that the app did not have a representative in India, making it
| challenging to monitor activities on the platform.
|
| This is basically an indirect validation that most non listed
| messaging apps supposedly offering e2e encryption such as
| Whatsapp or Signal have backdoors with access from any government
| asking for access.
| tialaramex wrote:
| > This is basically an indirect validation that most non listed
| messaging apps supposedly offering e2e encryption such as
| Whatsapp or Signal have backdoors with access from any
| government asking for access.
|
| Spot the user who thinks the Christian apologist must be on to
| something because if the story doesn't make any sense that
| means it must be true...
| newhotelowner wrote:
| > Whatsapp
|
| Whatsapp is the bread and butter of this government. That's
| their biggest propaganda machine.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| > This is basically an indirect validation that most non listed
| messaging apps supposedly offering e2e encryption such as
| Whatsapp or Signal have backdoors with access from any
| government asking for access.
|
| "Monitor activities" can also mean police investigators writing
| Telegram or whatever "hey, we found evidence that <illegal
| activity> is regularly occurring in channel ID X, here are the
| permanent links/IDs of example posts, please consider closing
| the channel or barring access to it from India or otherwise we
| will enforce compliance against the legal representative".
|
| It's basically the same stuff that the German NetzDG or the
| upcoming EU DSA/DMA laws are.
| [deleted]
| masklinn wrote:
| Is it? Or is it that they're starting from clients with low
| usage rates & little to no backing, which would be easier to
| attack? And / or they're going at it network bu network?
| jraph wrote:
| > This is basically an indirect validation that most non listed
| messaging apps supposedly offering e2e encryption such as
| Whatsapp or Signal have backdoors with access from any
| government asking for access.
|
| Not really. At least, I'm not convinced. Signal for instance
| does not have public channels like Matrix has, maybe that's the
| big difference. Signal's code can also be audited if in doubt
| (well, actually, Signal could always provide altered binaries
| on the App Store and Google Play Store, you'd have to build it
| yourself to be sure - though they do have reproducible builds
| for Android [1]).
|
| [1] https://signal.org/blog/reproducible-android/
| NayamAmarshe wrote:
| Nobody can verify backend code though, that's always an
| issue.
| jraph wrote:
| Signal is e2ee. The point of e2ee is that you can _not_
| trust the backend code (except for clear data it actually
| manipulates - which is still an issue indeed - Message
| contents are encrypted though)
|
| This is the case for any e2ee solutions. For instance my
| company develops CryptPad [1], which is a full open source
| office suite with e2ee. The server admins can't access your
| content and you don't need to trust the backend, which just
| passes messages and store encrypted messages. This is the
| whole point. e2ee has drawbacks: it's very difficult, if
| not impossible, to provide indexed search for encrypted
| content on the server, the client needs to do it which
| might be impractical.
|
| [1] https://cryptpad.org/
| NayamAmarshe wrote:
| > Signal is e2ee.
|
| That still does not change anything though. The backend
| is unverifiable, that's a fact. Why talk about E2EE, I
| wasn't really talking about that.
|
| Signal for a whole year was running a different server
| code and nobody even could tell that they added some
| cryptocoin stuff. On top of that, metadata, server
| connection and anything other than the message content is
| all at the mercy of the server owner.
| beepbooptheory wrote:
| If, as we are saying, the client code is public and one
| can theoretically analyze the code and prove that
| messages that go out are indeed only going out encrypted,
| then that must change something here? At that point at
| least, you can only be suspicious of the cryptography
| itself, but I believe that is public too.
| NayamAmarshe wrote:
| I was talking about the relevant data points other than
| the message content, mainly metadata.
|
| The server can not only log IPs, but also locations,
| client details and a lot more. The API calls aren't
| proxied, they're more or less direct.
| beckford wrote:
| Completely agree.
|
| For a while I did run a fork of the Signal Server. Beyond
| the sheer difficulty getting it to run without the server
| being updated for a year during the mobilecoin launch, it
| was extremely disconcerting to see PHONE NUMBERS spread
| throughout the log messages. It doesn't take much
| imagination to see how you can build a network of who you
| are talking to (etc.) from this log information.
|
| While it is quite possible that they had some non-default
| log configuration (and hopefully the metadata leaking in
| the logs is fixed), if you can't run the server you can't
| check what data is being leaked.
|
| Take the E2EE claim with a grain of salt if it is
| difficult to run a server.
| gray_charger wrote:
| > ...it was extremely disconcerting to see PHONE NUMBERS
| spread throughout the log messages. It doesn't take much
| imagination to see how you can build a network of who you
| are talking to (etc.) from this log information.
|
| The intent of Signal is to provide confidentiality of
| message content, not any sort of anonymity. This covers
| like 90+% of user's threat models and it's focusing on
| one problem makes it very effective at solving that
| problem. If one also needs anonymity then communication
| should happen over something like Tor or I2P.
| akvadrako wrote:
| First, it doesn't matter a lot if the backend is
| verifiable with E2E, that's the point.
|
| Second, some sensitive parts of Signal backend are
| verifiable, assuming Intel is not compromised, because
| they use Intel SGX.
| NayamAmarshe wrote:
| > First, it doesn't matter a lot if the backend is
| verifiable with E2E, that's the point.
|
| E2EE is only useful for content that is encrypted. Not
| the API calls themselves.
| bentley wrote:
| > On top of that, metadata, server connection and
| anything other than the message content is all at the
| mercy of the server owner.
|
| Except to the extent that the client is explicitly
| designed to minimize what metadata is exposed to the
| server.
| NayamAmarshe wrote:
| Yes but that still does not take care of the API logging
| problem.
|
| The server can log your IP, origin of request, client
| details and everything related to an API call. That's
| what I'm mainly talking about.
| tapoxi wrote:
| But due to sealed sender it doesn't know who is sending
| the message, only who is receiving messages.
|
| It has your IP, but of course it needs that, as well as
| every piece of network gear along the route. If you want
| to hide that you'd need Tor or a VPN.
| e12e wrote:
| > That still does not change anything though.
|
| Of course it does. Just like PGP works fine over
| untrusted channels - like if I posted a gnupg ascii-
| armored message here.
|
| e2ee makes _all_ the difference - if two trusted and
| mutually authenticated clients are communicating with
| proper e2ee - the best an attacker can do is traffic
| analysis and denial of service...?
| hutzlibu wrote:
| "the best an attacker can do is traffic analysis and
| denial of service...? "
|
| That's already a lot. If the evil secret police knows
| when and with whom you texted, then they don't even need
| to know the text of the messages, to link you to the
| opposition. And then just extract you and then the
| password with force to get the rest.
| e12e wrote:
| It certainly is a lot. It's enough for a drone strike.
|
| But almost by definition, if you have a back-end, there
| will be meta-data.
|
| There's been a few attempts at getting around it, with
| "one-to-many" (eg opaque PGP posts to Usenet groups),
| Mixmasters (remailers) or onion routing. None are AFAIK
| truly practical with a state-level adversary.
|
| e2ee is a good start, that doesn't mean you don't need to
| analyse the risks.
| DoctorOW wrote:
| Relevant: https://xkcd.com/538/
| hutzlibu wrote:
| It is, but encryption is still useful, as not everyone on
| this planet is in reach of evil secret police and their
| goons and wrenches are limited.
| renewiltord wrote:
| That's the interesting thing about being E2EE. You don't
| need to verify the backend. This is a private key and ETH
| wallet with a separator that is obvious on decryption: YS
| Bwcml2YXRlIGtleSBhbmQgRVRIIHdhbGxldCB3aXRoIGEgc2VwYXJhdG9
| yIHRoYXQgaXMgb2J2aW91cyBvbiBkZWNyeXB0aW9uCg==
|
| Use whatever backend you want to store that.
| dadoomer wrote:
| I really like cryptpad. Thank you for developing it.
|
| I have used it a few times in a professional setting even
| when there is no need for end-to-end encryption, and it
| is a good experience so far.
|
| I encourage others to try it .
| 2Gkashmiri wrote:
| audited for what? what is this signal fanboyism online when
| there are competing products doing the same thing? if
| whatsapp is using signal protocol then by effect isn't it as
| secure as signal? if whatsapp is introducing attack vectors,
| then they are not as secure as signal.
|
| But all that is a moot point. Indian government wants a
| representative in india for all the apps which they can throw
| in the jail or fine or arrest or beat up if their app is used
| to disseminate information the ruling party finds
| unpalatable. There is no terrorism threat. If whatsapp is
| e2ee, why aren't criminals using it? one would argue that it
| is being monitored and anyone doing any terrorist activity
| gets auto reported so where is e2ee in this? what happened to
| that?
|
| the government wants element/threema/telegram/whatsapp/signal
| to have a rep who will give them backdoor access and dance to
| their tune or they will cut off their money supply viz a viz,
| ban from the huge indian market. Telegram and whatsapp have
| bowed down to the supreme clown so they are after the rest of
| the apps now.
|
| reproducibility is nothing if the government can't push down
| on someone's neck. They want a totalitarian state where any
| dissent is seen as a criminal offense and people are today in
| jails for doing that.
|
| public channels is nonsense argument. the boogeyman
| terrorists wont use public channels will they?
|
| second thing, there is no requirement of using a mobile
| number with matrix. That is an amazing tool with the indian
| government. They just need the account holders' mobile which
| whatsapp and telegram are happy to share to save their asses
| and it takes a matter of seconds to find the person. They
| then employ the "xkcd $5 wrench attack" and the game is over.
|
| These apps don't mandate the use of a mobile number so that
| is what they are after.
| 1024core wrote:
| > the government wants
| element/threema/telegram/whatsapp/signal to have a rep who
| will give them backdoor access and dance to their tune
|
| _EVERY_ government does this (well OK, except for the
| really small ones).
|
| Why do you think the US wants to ban TikTok?
|
| Why do you think Al-Jazeera America exists?
|
| And let's not even talk about regimes like Russia and
| China.
|
| > if whatsapp is using signal protocol then by effect isn't
| it as secure as signal?
|
| You are incredibly naive.
| 2Gkashmiri wrote:
| What are you on about?
|
| Tiktok is about information control. Tiktok which is a
| China based org is gaining ground in USA is threatening
| american control over the narrative.
|
| Remember how everyone voted to boot parler suddenly?
|
| Doesn't China do same for american companies?
|
| The point here is about e2ee and backdoors. Nothing else.
|
| Your points about al Jazeera america are why?
|
| Tiktok?
|
| Does matrix work in China and russia? Do they comply
| there?
|
| Does american govt access other nations data with
| american companies which forced gdpr rules among others?
|
| Aren't signal fanboys claiming "no data to share" so why
| isn't that app used by terrorists in america? Why isn't
| that blocked there
| tortoise_in wrote:
| So you are saying govt want to control lol. Why you are
| posting nonsense why entire other states are happy and
| living without hurling bombs? You should be audited why
| you are using it. As far as country is remaining things
| are stable across all other states
| 1024core wrote:
| > What are you on about?
|
| Sigh.
|
| Did you know TikTok was forced to form a company in
| America so it could comply with American rules?
|
| And BTW: the reason America does not care as much about
| these apps is because they have deeper hooks into phones
| and can get the data without worrying about encryption.
| They get their hands on the messages before they're even
| encrypted. I know, magic, right?
| jraph wrote:
| > audited for what?
|
| To find backdoors?
|
| > what is this signal fanboyism online when there are
| competing products doing the same thing?
|
| You are completely misreading me. I actually prefer
| Element/Matrix than Signal (and I use both). But that does
| not matter one bit, so I hadn't mentioned it so far.
|
| I'm a fanboy of nothing, that's not how I work. Take it
| easy.
|
| > if whatsapp is using signal protocol then by effect isn't
| it as secure as signal?
|
| WhatsApp is closed source. We only have Facebook's words
| for trusting it. Which is a bit weak if ask me.
| 2Gkashmiri wrote:
| i am currently being blocked from accessing element.io
| because this ban is directly affecting me. That is why i
| am able to speak on it.
|
| my matrix access has not stopped but i guess it probably
| will in the next few days. There are thousands of matrix
| servers so being connected isn't an issue.
|
| The issue is specifically making the government
| understand that e2ee is necessary for the very reason
| they do not want it in the first place.
|
| terrorism is never an issue. the target, like china is on
| dissent and these are just propaganda
| jraph wrote:
| Good luck with the censoring happening in your country!
| That's quite shitty.
| Nuzzerino wrote:
| Hopefully their search results also aren't manipulated
| like in the US. At least they have a shot if they are
| allowed to even know the app exists :)
| the_gipsy wrote:
| You can use any other client, right?
| 2Gkashmiri wrote:
| Yep. For now the element.io keeps coming up and getting
| blocked on a 10-20 minutes schedule for some reason.
|
| No stoppage of service is happening for now. Even
| matrix.org is working.
|
| All clients are working, all servers are working
| eklavya wrote:
| I would like to understand how blocking element
| suppresses dissent in India. Every month there is
| somebody protesting in Delhi with media coverage.
|
| I would agree with you if the terrorism problem was more
| like that in the west. But people are killed by
| terrorists almost every week in India.
| 2Gkashmiri wrote:
| Dissent is a dirty word in India today.
|
| https://scroll.in/article/954711/in-kashmir-a-spree-of-
| arres...
|
| Few years who when India unilaterally changed the status
| of Kashmir so they just banned the while internet. For
| like 6 months.
|
| Then when it was allowed, the boogeyman of "misuse" which
| was a dirty word for dissent.
|
| People have been arrested for posting dissent, for having
| VPN apps on their phones.
|
| Their only aim is to obtain complete control. Dissent is
| not allowed.
|
| Element does not give them a punching bag rep nor gives
| them backdoor access. Both things are mentioned in the
| original news.
|
| WhatsApp does both so their e2ee is irrelevant.
|
| My question on the terrorism is, did terrorism not exist
| before e2ee? Were they able to stop them completely
| before now that they are unable to?
| rajup wrote:
| > Their only aim is to obtain complete control. Dissent
| is not allowed.
|
| Terrorism is not allowed. FTFY.
| tortoise_in wrote:
| It is not banned since years where I live and you can say
| whatever you want to anyone strange you are behaving like
| every one in entire country is facing same issues . You
| should ask someone to visit there and feel the terror.
| Who can be killed anytime. First learn to stay with
| others.
| 1024core wrote:
| > Few years who when India unilaterally changed the
| status of Kashmir
|
| You must not know how laws work. Kashmir agreed to join
| India in 1948. It was given a special status, enshrined
| in Article 370 of the Constitution of India. Now, that
| "special status" has always bothered a lot of Indians;
| what's so special about Kashmir? Why not any of the other
| 537 states that formed India in 1947?
|
| There were certain conditions on which Article 370 could
| be removed. Those conditions were met in 2019 and the
| Central Government took the decision to remove Article
| 370 to much rejoicing in areas like Ladakh and Jammu.
| This was challenged in the Indian Supreme Court (the
| final arbiter of things Constitutional) and found to be
| valid.
| hutzlibu wrote:
| "Kashmir agreed to join India in 1948"
|
| What you are saying seems to be factual true, but for
| context one should probably add, that the only other
| option would have been Pakistan. Whose troops were
| already inside Kashmir. Independence, which is what most
| Kashmiris likely would have preferred, was not on the
| table offered to them, by any of the bigger empires
| around them. And the Kashmir independence movement in its
| whole, seems to be considered terrorism by india since
| day one.
| kelipso wrote:
| There were many other independent to semi independent
| nations in India then who agreed to join India due to
| various forms of pressure. E.g. south Kerala Travancore
| was a princely state where the king gave up the throne
| and joined India, Bhutan was a princely state and became
| an independent kingdom. What makes Kashmir special. It
| could've stayed independent and gotten destroyed I guess.
| Who knows, speculative history.
| hutzlibu wrote:
| "It could've stayed independent and gotten destroyed I
| guess. "
|
| Kashmir as a independent state is also destroyed in the
| current timeline.
|
| "What makes Kashmir special. "
|
| Lot's of things. But yes, other states are also special.
|
| I am open for them, to go for independence, or at least
| local autonomy as well, if they like.
| PrimeMcFly wrote:
| > People have been arrested for posting dissent, for
| having VPN apps on their phones.
|
| This is only going to get worse, and spread to other
| countries.
|
| We need a real, reliable, decentralized solution, but we
| also need a solution that allows plausible deniability.
|
| So if some cop looks at a phone, they can't see anything
| that would arouse suspicion.
|
| A custom rom masquerading as an official Android release,
| with some kind of secret set of actions to launch an app,
| and a way to instantly hide all traces of it like a boss
| key.
| 0max wrote:
| Now you're really making me consider the downsides of the
| India stack.
| prmoustache wrote:
| How many people are: - auditing signal source code -
| recompiling the signal client to make sure they haven't
| tampered binaries.
|
| I remember a blog post from signal showing how to build a
| compilation environment to validate the source but it was
| itself relying on docker images that you should first rebuild
| yourself to make sure the compiler and any other dependencies
| are the same as the upstream ones.
| jraph wrote:
| Sure. That's why I wrote "if in doubt".
|
| There was this statement that what's happening more or less
| proves that Signal & co has backdoors.
|
| That's a guess but the good thing is that we can check.
|
| It takes _one_ person to do it. Not everybody has to do it.
|
| If I remember correctly, binaries sent to the Play Store
| are signed by the developer so Google can't really temper
| with the binary themselves, or they would need to modify
| Android so it ignores the problem. But at this point, this
| means Android itself is backdoored.
|
| (Which I don't exclude, btw - we need to trust a whole host
| of binaries for the phone drivers, and the hardware itself.
| At this point the issue is deeper than just signal though)
| JeremyNT wrote:
| I believe Google now can do the app signing. They seem to
| encourage developers to upload keys [0]. The stated
| reason is to generate dynamic packages based on device
| details.
|
| I don't remember the details but I believe it is their
| intention to eventually remove the ability for developers
| to sign their own packages.
|
| [0] https://developer.android.com/guide/app-bundle/faq
| detuur wrote:
| Also, if that were true, there wouldn't be a reason to
| ban Element or these other apps in the first place.
|
| Reproducible builds, combined with Android's developer-
| signed binaries, means that you don't _need_ to be super-
| vigilant to detect backdoors. You can investigate
| binaries after the fact (especially since virtually every
| version of popular apps is archived on third-party apk
| sites), and see that the signed build is not reproducible
| and at that point you can very easily dig into the binary
| to see which changes were made.
| Klonoar wrote:
| This is the most eye roll inducing comment I've seen on this
| site this week. We know this isn't the case.
| crnkovic wrote:
| > This is basically an indirect validation that most non listed
| messaging apps supposedly offering e2e encryption such as
| Whatsapp or Signal have backdoors with access from any
| government asking for access.
|
| More likely: the government doesn't want to cause 'too much'
| discomfort among ordinary citizens. The decision to not block
| popular apps such as WhatsApp is probably purely political.
| godelski wrote:
| > the government doesn't want to cause 'too much' discomfort
| among ordinary citizens
|
| This! I've yet to meet an Indian who doesn't have WhatsApp
| and we all know that pretty much every Indian with a phone
| uses it. We're not talking about a little discomfort, we're
| talking a lot. There's almost half a billion users.
| Government can't bad WhatsApp without a major freakout, so
| they're going after small players. It wasn't long ago that
| even Signal AND WhatsApp were pushing back against these laws
| and what resulted is more Signal downloads (tens of millions
| of users in India)
|
| https://www.statista.com/statistics/289778/countries-with-
| th...
| webmobdev wrote:
| National security trumps "discomfort to citizens" every time
| ... otherwise all of us would have revolted by now for
| wasting hours in airport because of the security checks.
| Kwpolska wrote:
| When did you last see offline protests against airport
| security theater?
|
| Literally everyone in India is using WhatApp. If the
| government decided to shut it down, all government offices
| would be on fire within hours.
| Entinel wrote:
| You actually don't understand the level of dependence India
| has on WhatsApp.
| vivegi wrote:
| Yes. It is said the Colonial British used to say _The sun
| never sets in the British Empire_.
|
| In today's context with WhatsApp, _The sun never rises
| without a billion GOOD MORNING messages and another
| billion GOOD MORNING TO YOU TOO replies on WhatsApp in
| India_ /s
| koonsolo wrote:
| Probably most people are smart enough to know why there are
| security checks at the airport.
|
| You propose to abandon them?
| prmoustache wrote:
| > Probably most people are smart enough to know why there
| are security checks at the airport.
|
| Which is to artificially maintain the duty free market.
| ishanjain28 wrote:
| No, it's not
| zug_zug wrote:
| Anything owned by Meta has a whole internal platform for
| serving government requests for many countries based on select
| criteria
| suyash wrote:
| Most of these sound like they are created for nefarious purpose
| such as terrorism or data hacking.
| cies wrote:
| A rite of passage for Element/Matrix. Apparently it does it's job
| so well that gov'ts are afraid on one end (India in this case),
| and adopting it on the other end (the German govt trying to not
| be spied on by the US).
|
| Element/Matrix is growing up. Element/Matrix is making a dent in
| the universe. Congratulations!
| npteljes wrote:
| Also, for similar reasons, France apparently had a use for it!
|
| https://element.io/case-studies/tchap
| 2Gkashmiri wrote:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35825227
|
| my submission prior to the blogpost.
|
| its funny how element wrote the blog and i was unable to access
| the page 3-7 times during today. the site doesn't work, then it
| works 10 minutes later.
|
| BTW, AMA.
| antisocialist wrote:
| [flagged]
| isanjay wrote:
| I really dislike what BJP is doing with internet in india. Proper
| authoritarian.
|
| I hope they lose in Karnataka and other states in coming months.
| 1729now wrote:
| [flagged]
| isanjay wrote:
| Why ?
| flangola7 wrote:
| What happened
| 1729now wrote:
| [flagged]
| [deleted]
| stereoradonc wrote:
| Where's the alternative, dude? You'd want a annointed clown in
| their place?
| newswasboring wrote:
| Yes. I would rather have Rahul Gandhi than Narendra Modi.
| Rahul Gandhi is not trying to actively destroy the social
| fabric of the country.
| eklavya wrote:
| Oh boy, where do I start. It's precisely the policies of
| Congress that have damaged the social fabric since before
| the independence.
|
| You would rather have that fool at the helm with rampant
| corruption, I am glad the majority thinks otherwise.
| Badumtss8 wrote:
| Electoral Bond. Legal Corruption.
| jimsimmons wrote:
| Number of alleged patriots who can't find the rationality
| in them to criticize electoral bonds is baffling
| throwaway384629 wrote:
| If it were the policies of Congress, then why all the BJP
| leaders keep giving hate speeches and why all the major
| "news" channels keep spreading religious venom 24/7? Does
| BJP realize that it's their government now, and they can
| try to repair the social fabric now?
|
| Isn't corruption slightly better than potential genocide
| and religious hate?
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| 1024core wrote:
| LOL... I find your naivete ... saddening.
|
| I grew up in India. I have seen first hand how shitty INC
| and the Gandhi family are.
|
| Tell me something: why don't they have democracy in INC
| itself? Who made the Gandhi family the head of INC? Why
| isn't there any challenger to them? The last person who
| challenged them in a tiny fashion was Narasimha Rao, who
| was cast away like a leper and died unsung, even though he
| was an ex-PM of India.
| jimsimmons wrote:
| I also grew up in India. Parroting Indian history to
| justify the present is not how you move the country
| forward.
|
| Republican Party was the party of Abraham Lincoln.
| Parties change through their life.
| alephnerd wrote:
| The Gandhi family (as in the clique surrounding them)
| does impact the INC negatively in the electoral field.
|
| Himachal Pradesh - the state a significant portion of my
| family is from - only got the INC in 2022 because the
| party grassroots had an internal revolt against having a
| Gandhi apparatchik made CM (Prabhita Singh) and selected
| Sukku+Agnihotri instead.
|
| In neighborhing Punjab, Gandhi family meddling to
| undermine Amrinder Singh+Sunhil Jakkar and attempt to put
| their lackey Navjot Singh Sidhu in charge lead to the INC
| losing Punjab to the AAP and grassroots Mazahbi+Punjabi
| Hindu INC members to join the BJP.
|
| In neighboring JK, where the other half of my family is
| from, internal bickering between the Gandhi family's
| clique and their opposition lead the former CM of JK
| (Ghulam Nabi) to quit the INC and he will probably join
| the BJP out of spite.
|
| The INC lost the entirety of Northeast India because
| conflicts with Rahul Gandhi in 2014 caused the current CM
| of Assam (and current contender for heir to Narendra
| Modi) - Himanta Biswas Sarma - to defect to the BJP and
| help organize the BJP in Northeast India to completely
| decimate the INC there.
|
| Personality clashes between the Gandhi family and mid-
| level INC members has hollowed out the INC, as members
| either start their own parties (eg. National Congress in
| Maharashtra, Tiramool Congress in West Bengal, YSR
| Congress in Andhra Pradesh, Janta Dal United in Bihar,
| Samajwadi Party in Uttar Pradesh) or defect to the BJP
| (eg. Amrinder Singh in Punjab; Bommai, the BJP CM of
| Karnataka, is the son of a major ex-INC politician who
| started the Janta Dal after a fight with Sonia Gandhi;
| etc).
|
| If INC wants to succeed at national elections again, they
| will need to drop the Gandhi family and bring back
| internal democracy within the organization. Lots of BJP
| politicians are half hearted in their support of the
| party and are only doing it out of spite against the
| current INC.
|
| Alternatively, INC members are increasingly defecting to
| the AAP as well now too, but they have no shot at
| National Elections for 20 years at least.
|
| India needs a healthy multi-party electoral system at the
| national level to prevent Authoritarian Democracy from
| taking hold, but the internal bickering within the INC is
| only enabling the BJP further.
| zapdrive wrote:
| How has the Congress party changed in the last 30 years?
| Still headed by a Gandhi or a person remote controlled by
| the Gandhi family. Their pm candidate Rahul's best
| qualification is being born a Gandhi. We all know how
| smart he is. The last vote to choose the party president
| was heavily ridden by loyalty votes rather than people
| voting on competency.
| jimsimmons wrote:
| You can find differences just as well you can find
| similarities. The Modi party btw is not some
| revolutionary departure from classic Indian politics
| either.
|
| We are talking about grey stuff and you claim to see
| black and white things. There's no way I or anyone else
| can convince you otherwise
| 1024core wrote:
| > You can find differences just as well you can find
| similarities.
|
| So please tell us what are the differences? I don't see
| many. It's the same dynastic party that was 120 years
| ago.
| isanjay wrote:
| I can dislike multiple parties mate.
|
| But BJP coming 3 terms in a row is not good for India. IMO
| zapdrive wrote:
| They must be doing something right to keep getting re-
| elected.
| naravara wrote:
| Honestly it's probably more to do with the weakness,
| short-sightedness, and incompetence of their opposition.
| It's a mark against them that they aren't winning
| landslides considering who they're up against.
| throwaway384629 wrote:
| Smaller thug is better than bigger thug!
| hnbad wrote:
| They're far-right Hindu nationalists. I'm not sure
| authoritarianism from an ethnonationalist party is particularly
| surprising.
| 0xDEF wrote:
| >ethnonationalist
|
| No one ethnic group makes up more than 10% of their
| supporters. They are religious populists.
| a_humean wrote:
| They are very much far right Hindu nationalist, but its
| probably a stretch to call them ethnonationalist given the
| ethnic diversity of that grouping.
| eunos wrote:
| Pretty sure Cong will do the same. India take unlicensed
| communication seriously. Even plane wifi doesn't work when it
| flies over Indian airspace.
| SanderNL wrote:
| "Unlicensed communication". Now that's an interesting way to
| put it.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Somewhat related
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Licence_Raj
| eunos wrote:
| India also regulate satellite telephone heavily iirc
| xxpor wrote:
| I believe that's because the Mumbai attackers used
| satphones to communicate with each other.
| jimsimmons wrote:
| Classic sanghi whatavoutism to render any criticism
| irrelevant
| throwaway384629 wrote:
| True, one day they might say Nazis also did it.
|
| These comments from this post:
|
| >> EVERY government does this
|
| >> Pretty sure Cong will do the same.
|
| >> And do you think that is different from politicians in
| other countries?
|
| >> Interestingly the US is busy pushing the EARN IT act
| again right now.
| isanjay wrote:
| > Pretty sure Cong will do the same
|
| I hate Congress too.
| eunos wrote:
| India has no neolib party or libertarian party
| unfortunately
| stuppo wrote:
| They are going to loose Karanataka because theier
| administration was bad. As it should be not. Not beacuse of
| internet or authroization. Governance remember INC guys is what
| elects people. Now if you guys can convince Rahul to step and
| appoint some honest good guy we might at last have some
| opposition. A good ooposition is very very needed in India.
| What we have is just far-left Islamist and communists. Against
| those people would prefer far-right hindus. I am still unsure
| who to vote. No way i am going to vote INC. That leaves me with
| other options(Really BJP should be punished for their affairs
| in Kar).
| smahs wrote:
| Since when is left == religious fundamentalism?
| isanjay wrote:
| I think he is talking about INC being pro Muslim and do
| minority pandering to win elections.
|
| I might be totally wrong by the way
| wunderland wrote:
| More info on the other apps that were banned:
| https://m.timesofindia.com/india/government-bans-14-messagin...
|
| Currently, all of these are still available on the app stores.
| vidyesh wrote:
| I don't know about all the apps but Briar works P2P, you do not
| really need to connect to internet to send encrypted messages.
| And the apk is officially available on their website anyway.
| Proven wrote:
| [dead]
| prhrb wrote:
| I hope they don't ban tor now
| throwawayrocket wrote:
| [flagged]
| sokoloff wrote:
| My view is that it's not my business the form of government
| that another country takes for its internal affairs. I have
| standing to object when (sadly, not if) my government becomes
| too authoritarian, when another country breaks a treaty,
| invades a neighbor, etc, but what they do inside their borders
| is not my business.
| throwawayrocket wrote:
| [flagged]
| villgax wrote:
| Wow, the rest of world should ban everything that comes out of
| India if they don't have representation/offices in 200+ countries
| I guess.
|
| Did these clowns miss the memo on how the internet works & what
| sort of business/applications can be made without needing to be
| physically present anywhere Jesus.....
| samarthr1 wrote:
| My understanding of the issue is that the government of India
| required executive presence as an insurance of sorts, so that
| the stick of throwing the local executive in jail can be
| wielded to get some measure of control.
|
| Now, whether that is good or bad is a different matter
| altogether
| suyash wrote:
| Good luck doing business in China without local representative
| and or for that matter doing the same in the US. Everyone large
| economy has similar criteria more or less.
| throwaway384629 wrote:
| Yup, no difference in India and China now...
| 3np wrote:
| > The Element app is just one of many apps that give access to
| the Matrix network. A simple parallel is that banning Element
| because it gives access to the Matrix network is the equivalent
| to blocking Google Chrome because it gives people access to the
| web, or Gmail because it gives people access to email.
|
| Outlook would have been a better example than Gmail for email.
| veeti wrote:
| FWIW Gmail on Android supports other mail providers too.
| throwawayrocket wrote:
| [flagged]
| bkishan wrote:
| > Indians support NSA accessing data
|
| From where exactly did you arrive at this conclusion?
| throwawayrocket wrote:
| After reading YouTube comments. You don't have to trust me.
| Just ask your Indian friends
| ftyhbhyjnjk wrote:
| BJP is turning India into North Korean like dictatorship. Modi
| seems a coward who can't take criticism.
| isanjay wrote:
| He definitely can't take criticism.
|
| Over the past decade many public figures were targets of IT
| raids, right after criticising BJP.
| walrus01 wrote:
| The Indian government is incredibly hostile to an open and free
| internet. It's well documented.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_India
|
| Just recently the government has ordered all last mile ISPs in
| Manipur to turn off the internet for the whole region.
|
| https://www.google.com/search?q=manipur%20internet&ie=utf-8&...
|
| The Kashmir internet shutdown is also very well documented.
|
| https://www.google.com/search?q=kashmir%20internet%20shutdow...
|
| This is the country that will threaten to imprison you for
| bringing in a handheld Iridium phone, as a journalist.
| downvotetruth wrote:
| Question is if phone service would bring in more than dish for
| Starlink given a ban or if Musk would see it more advantageous
| to the whole X/Twitter concept.
| vinay_ys wrote:
| This is just western media propaganda against an economically
| growing India. All part of this new geopolitical world order.
| nerdbert wrote:
| Do you not understand how much you weaken yourself when you
| allow yourself to believe this?
|
| Legitimate criticism is the cornerstone of improvement. The
| only people who don't want criticism to be aired are those
| who are not genuinely interested in making things better, but
| rather benefit from them remaining bad.
| vinay_ys wrote:
| Here's some context:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dHPXrIj8jg
|
| Also, on how media is weaponized, here's some more context:
| https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2021/653
| 6...
| throwaway384629 wrote:
| What did Soros say wrong in the video? "India is a
| democracy but its leader is not a democrat. Inciting
| violence against muslims was an important factor in his
| meteoric rise."
|
| I also agree with the second link that you shared. Media
| is weaponized against democracy. All the mainstream TV
| channels in India are busy attacking opposition, or dis-
| crediting any protests against government or promoting
| Hindu-Muslim hatered. Most of the channels are owned by
| crony capitalists which have ties to the government.
| anaganisk wrote:
| Ignore him, he seems too brain washed or part of the
| propaganda machine. BJP has control of major new channels
| and controls the media narrative constantly and this guy
| blabbers on about media being weaponized. They banned a
| documentary by BBC because it hurt the feelings of Modi,
| but had no problems with an ex PM during election time
| and released a movie criticizing him. One of the top BJP
| leaders recently made a statement saying "Muslims are not
| equals so they don't deserve equal rights". And I'm
| pretty sure this guy in comments will be the first one to
| arrive when, more states pass anti-caste discrimination
| laws in the US, claiming religious persecution.
| anaganisk wrote:
| Dude stop with your propaganda and post links to direct
| sources which say against something, don't make BS statements
| out of thin air. You are all over this thread with this BS.
| lightbulbs wrote:
| Either these facts stated are true or they are not. Where's
| the propaganda in a bunch of objective facts?
| jsheard wrote:
| Twitter was recently found to be censoring tweets _worldwide,_
| not just for users in India, at the request of the Indian
| government
|
| https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/twitter-takes-down-po...
| xNeil wrote:
| Slightly confused - why is this a problem? If the US
| government asks Twitter to take a tweet down, do you expect
| them to take it down only in the USA, while leaving it up
| everywhere else?
| jsheard wrote:
| That's exactly what Twitter has done for most of its
| history, if India demanded something be removed, that
| wasn't against Twitters own rules, then it would be blocked
| in India but remain visible to the rest of the world.
| That's why the redaction clumsily says the tweet has been
| "withheld in Worldwide", normally there would be a specific
| country there instead of Worldwide.
|
| It should go without saying that enforcing every state-
| requested takedown worldwide would be a complete shitshow.
| A social media site where you can't post anything that
| angers _any_ government, even the most authoritarian, would
| be unusable for many purposes.
| darthrupert wrote:
| This might be the biggest endorsement for Matrix I've seen in a
| while.
| throwawayzzer wrote:
| [flagged]
| suyash wrote:
| So the official from Element are indirecting telling users to
| find a hack in their statement "As much as people in India will
| be able to trivially circumvent the blocking of the 14 messaging
| apps ...." ? That won't help their case, just might get a
| permanent ban from one of the largest countries in the world.
| bkishan wrote:
| I wonder if Signal will be next. Then it will truly mark the
| beginning of the end for democracy in India.
| isanjay wrote:
| BJP won't last forever.
|
| Next general elections aren't too far away
| coolg54321 wrote:
| BJP will be there till there is a strong opposition party,
| congress is a mess
| isanjay wrote:
| I don't think they will as many parliament seats as they
| did last time.
|
| I agree with your point though
| 0xDEF wrote:
| The rest of the world didn't care about Indian politics
| before the right-wing populist BJP was elected.
|
| Many Westerners have seen Modi's name along with the year
| 2002 so they assume he has been the sole dictator of India
| since 2002.
| rayiner wrote:
| [flagged]
| cool_dude85 wrote:
| American media loved the USSR? Interesting theory.
| rayiner wrote:
| [flagged]
| churchill wrote:
| Up until the Soviet Union split up, Western academics
| praised the USSR as the best thing in the world since
| sliced bread. I remember a story by Solzhenitsyn where he
| says a journalist came to their gulag and interviewed
| them. Since they were right before camp guards, they
| praised the Soviet system of 'correction through labor'
| since they liked breathing.
|
| He assumed the journalist knew it was a scam and wouldn't
| dare publish it.
|
| Years later, after Solzhenitsyn left the gulag, he moved
| to the West and he saw that interview was published word
| for word and the journalist wrote a piece praising the
| 'humane' Soviet system over America's 'cruel & evil'
| prison system!
|
| Another example: during the Holodomor (Stalin's
| engineered famine) that killed 6 - 8 million in Ukraine,
| New York Times' Moscow Bureau chief Walter Duranty
| privately acknowledged to British intelligence that as
| many as 10 million folks had died. Publicly, he praised
| the Soviet system and said everything was abundant [0].
|
| I could go on and on, but whether it's the USSR, Mao's
| China, or Castro's Cuba, there's a pattern of Western
| academics & media personalities praising brutally violent
| regimes.
|
| Now, I'm not saying Putin's Russia is Christian & right
| wing; I'm simply pointing out how Western media never
| misses a chance to support the wrong guys.
|
| [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Duranty
| rayiner wrote:
| [flagged]
| churchill wrote:
| [flagged]
| throwaway384629 wrote:
| Narendra Modi is the only person ever denied a U.S. visa
| based on a little-known law on religious freedom.
|
| https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-narendra-modi-was-banned-
| fr...
| 1729now wrote:
| [flagged]
| isanjay wrote:
| Did you create a throwaway account just do defend BJP ?
| brokenkebaby wrote:
| I don't see him defending whatever. Ongoing assault on
| private communication is a world-wide problem, nothing
| specifically Indian.
| isanjay wrote:
| His other comment was flagged.
| abhinavk wrote:
| Unlike in US, fascist supporters in India are everywhere in
| STEM. I would give this person some credit though because
| usually they are very open in their support.
| hnbad wrote:
| You seriously underestimate how many fascist supporters
| there are in STEM in the US (and Europe for that matter).
| Contrary to what you might assume from the public focus
| on DEI from big tech companies, there's a vast underbelly
| of reactionaries. Not to mention very influential people
| like Peter Thiel, who is openly hostile to the concept of
| democracy.
| trasz4 wrote:
| Also the sad fact is that STEM folks tend to be poor at
| humanities, so they easily fall prey to right wing fringe
| theories, they can't detect bs.
| 1729now wrote:
| [flagged]
| fathyb wrote:
| I was curious to see if Norway really did that so I looked it
| up: they didn't, they banned it on government devices, which
| makes sense to me.
| Martinussen wrote:
| What? You mean on the work device of politicians? Not quite a
| ban, that.
| mailund wrote:
| This is incorrect. You're not allowed to download TikTok onto
| a government issued device if you're employed by the
| government, but it is absolutely not banned in general.
| villgax wrote:
| They banned it for gathering data they are not supposed to
| just like India. But Element & other secure communication
| services are being banned for a tangential reason
| vinay_ys wrote:
| This is so hilarious and disconnected from reality. Democracy
| doesn't happen on Signal. The biggest sign that democracy is
| well and good in India is that we have well-run elections and
| orderly change of elected officials, and we have strong laws on
| books and more sensible laws get passed as well and all this is
| done in the open in broad daylight (and broadcast on YouTube).
| Taxes are paid and collected and spent - yes, there is
| corruption but that's not a strike against democracy. Also, we
| are in a vibrant multi-party system and quite a large part of
| the population identifies themselves with one party or another
| and volunteer to do party-ideology building work. These are
| signs of a healthy functioning democracy. Whatever happens to
| those 13 apps or Signal, it won't matter much to the citizenry
| of India.
| azurenumber wrote:
| Blocking modes of communication will not affect citizens of
| india and is Democratic?
|
| Please Explain.
| 2Gkashmiri wrote:
| please ignore. this is BJP cybercell doing blogspam. this
| looks copypasta, some carefully crafted text. I bet it
| would be searchable because it must've been used elsewhere
| already. let me try
| hnarn wrote:
| What an incredibly pessimistic definition of democracy. By
| your standards, even the People's Republic of China could be
| considered very close to a functioning democracy, albeit with
| the caveat that they don't allow multiple parties.
|
| If free speech, independent media, lack of corruption, the
| right to privacy and the right to fair treatment by the law
| are not requirements to call something a democracy, then you
| are just making up your own definition of the word.
|
| I'm not saying India _isn 't_ a democracy, but it's not black
| and white, it's a scale.
|
| The Economists 2022 Democracy Index ranks India at #46 as a
| "flawed democracy", together with countries like Poland and
| Italy. There's no shame in that. Don't let your own pride in
| your country blind you to the problems it has -- no country
| is without them.
| vinay_ys wrote:
| How does multi-party politics with vastly different
| ideologies across extremely diverse and regional electoral
| constituencies and massive well-run elections with orderly
| change of power happen? Free speech and free media are very
| much alive and well in India. Yes, corruption still exists
| and we can't wait to cut it down by another ten times soon
| - digitization has already helped in big ways.
|
| Btw, I don't have to agree to your definition of democracy.
| India has its own culture and history of citizen
| representative governance that is thousands of years old.
| And I definitely don't have believe what ranking Economist
| gives India. The trust in old media is at an all time low.
| triceratops wrote:
| > India has its own culture and history of citizen
| representative governance that is thousands of years old
|
| This is news to me. Citations please.
| nerdbert wrote:
| Trust in media is low because authoritarians and their
| apologists know how important it is to undermine anyone
| who can hold them to account for their crimes against the
| public good. They have learned to aggressively demonise
| journalists who come from a tradition of fact checking
| and responsible reporting, in favour of sycophantic hacks
| who will happily spew the authoritarian position in
| exchange for a few ducats or an invitation to the annual
| Despots' Gala.
| anaganisk wrote:
| Man you will do great on Wall Street, any bankrupt
| company will definitely get bailed out if you are at the
| negotiation table.
| wasmitnetzen wrote:
| > free media are very much alive and well in India
|
| > The trust in old media is at an all time low
|
| You can't pick-and-choose the free media to your liking.
| You either get all of them, or none.
| vinay_ys wrote:
| Why do you think I'm pick-and-choosing anything. Old
| media with their kingmaker mindsets is just as free,
| alive and well as before to spew their BS opinions as
| news. But like never before, every individual has access
| to huge amount of social-proofed realtime information and
| communication - thanks to cheap smartphones armed with
| cheapest 4G data plans in their hands. This has led to
| everyone with a brain experiencing the gel-mann amnesia
| effect stronger than ever. And so, the trust in old media
| has dropped like a rock to the bottom of the ocean.
| sifar wrote:
| >> Free speech and free media are very much alive and
| well in India.
|
| where :) ? They have become zombies.
|
| >> Btw, I don't have to agree to your definition of
| democracy. India has its own culture and history of
| citizen representative governance that is thousands of
| years old.
|
| This reminds me of the dialogue from Swades, which is so
| apt. Be proud but don't hide behind the ancient past. You
| are not living in the past, but here and the now, and
| that culture is once again being shackled not by
| outsiders this time but people you have anointed
| yourself.
| newhotelowner wrote:
| > Free speech & Free media
|
| Really? Rahul Gandhi (Opposition) was jailed for free
| speech? Governemnt banned BBC documentary and raid their
| offices in Delhi? Jailed comedian for free speech?
| Journalist visiting victim was jailed for 6 months is
| free media/free speech? Thretening to jail twitter
| employees if they don't remove tweets critical of this
| government is a free speech?
|
| > Corruption
|
| Didn't this government bought as many as MLAs as previous
| 5 government combined?
|
| Did anything happened to Adani?
|
| Demonetization? 5G Spectrum? PM Cares? are not scams?
| samarthr1 wrote:
| I am pretty sure criminal defamation is a jailable
| offence, no matter if you are the Leader of Opposition or
| not.
|
| Mr. Gandhi was convicted by a court of law, not the
| executive or the legislature. If you call all Modis
| criminals, be prepared to backup such a statement.
|
| It is after all a reasonably large thing to be called a
| thief and a criminal if you are a merchant yes?
| eklavya wrote:
| > Really? Rahul Gandhi (Opposition) was jailed for free
| speech?
|
| No he is being prosecuted for a law his party created. He
| looses the MLAship by a law created by his party. He has
| been tried in a court of law. He wasn't plucked from the
| clutches of his mother and thrown in jail.
|
| > Governemnt banned BBC documentary and raid their
| offices in Delhi?
|
| It was a propaganda piece. Modi was tried in court by
| opposition and you should read the remarks by supreme
| court on the nature of the allegations against him.
|
| Not commenting on the others since I don't know about it.
|
| > Didn't this government bought as many as MLAs as
| previous 5 government combined?
|
| Yes along with residential plots on Venus.
|
| > Did anything happened to Adani? What should happen to
| him?
|
| > Demonetization? 5G Spectrum? PM Cares? are not scams?
| No?
| Badumtss8 wrote:
| Electoral Bond.
| vinay_ys wrote:
| I guess you don't understand free speech. Fighting a
| defamation case with powerful lawyers besides you in a
| court of law and losing it and then appealing it in a
| higher court, all while being out on bail and able to
| plan and campaign actively in an ongoing state election
| is the definition of justice system working fine in a
| democracy.
|
| > Demonetization? 5G Spectrum? PM Cares? are not scams?
|
| Explain please. I'm genuinely curious to know what these
| scams are.
| newhotelowner wrote:
| PM Cards - Government told the court that they do not
| want under RTI.
|
| 5G Spectrum sold for as much as 2g. But 2g was a huge
| scam. Since 2g, Indian wireless usage increased by 10
| folds. So either 2g was not a scam, and genius or 5g
| auction was a bigger scam. You decide.
|
| Demonetization - UP had a state election. Gujarat had
| panchayat election. Since Modi/Shah knew about it, they
| converted their cash. It wasn't about the black money. It
| was about reducing oppositions cash holding during the
| election. I was in India, and I saw how BJP was able to
| distribute liquor & money in the villages while everyone
| was standing in line.
|
| Thanks for agreeing with me about the all the other
| issues.
| throwaway384629 wrote:
| PM Cares Scam:
|
| During Covid, Modi created a fund with the name "PM
| Cares" pretending that it was a government fund by using
| national emblem of India in the Fund's documentation. And
| it is illegal for the national emblem to be used for
| private entities. They took money from government
| organizations, and their staff salaries. The government
| banks showed banners on their websites to asking people .
| On demands of an CAG Audit, they backtracked and said
| this is a private fund and not subjected to government
| oversight.
|
| Petitions filed under the Right to Information Act 2005
| by the Indian Express to 32 public sector undertakings
| (PSUs) in India indicated that a total of [?]21050
| million had been transferred to the PM CARES Fund,
| primarily from their corporate social responsibility
| budget allocations for 2019-20 and 2020-21. A petition
| for the same information that was made to the Prime
| Minister's Office was denied, with the Government of
| India stating that the Fund was not a public authority
| and did not have to account for the funds under the Right
| to Information Act. In December 2020, the Indian Express
| reported that a total of 101 public sector units had
| transferred [?]2,400 crore (US$300 million) from their
| corporate social responsibility funds, and a total of
| [?]155 crore (US$19 million) from staff salaries, to the
| PM CARES Fund.
| vinay_ys wrote:
| Okay, that does smell. Thanks for the detailed response.
|
| Edit: A quick search got me this:
| https://www.pmcares.gov.in/en/web/page/about_us with the
| audited financial statements. Is this still a scam?
| Genuinely curious.
| throwaway384629 wrote:
| I am getting "403 Forbidden" error for 2 out of 3 audit
| statements from the link that you shared.
|
| It is indeed one of the biggest scam by Modi BJP
| government where they siphoned off over 10,000 crores of
| money on the name of providing coronavirus relief.
|
| 1. Why they used national emblem of India in the Fund's
| documentation while it is illegal for the national emblem
| to be used for private entities?
|
| 2. If it was a private fund, why they took thousands of
| crores of money from government organizations?
|
| 3. If it was a private fund, why they forced donations
| from government employees' salaries? [1]
|
| 4. Russian arms firm to donate $2 million to PM CARES
| Fund [2]
|
| 5. Instead of getting it audited by "Comptroller and
| Auditor General of India" why they are auditing it
| through a private Chartered Accountants firm that is
| closely linked to BJP? [3]
|
| [1] https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/coronavirus-
| pm-cares-...
|
| [2] https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/russian-arms-
| firm-to-...
|
| [3] https://www.indiejournal.in/article/exclusive-pm-
| cares-fund-...
| SanjayMehta wrote:
| Do these apps link with a functioning mobile number? If not,
| that's the most likely reason they have been targeted.
|
| Interestingly the US is busy pushing the EARN IT act again
| right now.
| humanlion87 wrote:
| Does that mean there was no democracy in India before Signal
| existed? It does seem like a big exaggeration to mark the
| "beginning of the end of democracy" just because a single app
| gers banned. I am curious how many people in India use Signal.
| 3np wrote:
| Something that's not clear from OP: What does "banned" imply?
|
| I'm assuming at least Google and Apple are demanded to take them
| off their stores. What are are consequences if they don't?
|
| What about users? Would you be in trouble of LE caught you red-
| handed using a banned app?
| arihant wrote:
| No, these bans (as I understand it) usually happen under IT Act
| that apply to service providers and ISPs, not citizens. For
| example, TikTok is blocked by ISPs and taken off from app
| stores, and TikTok might itself be fined if they continue to
| provide service but it's is not illegal for a citizen to use
| it. There are very few cases where it's illegal for a citizen
| to access some things, but those things are illegal just about
| everywhere.
| viraptor wrote:
| That would make no sense for Element. That client it not
| bound to any specific network - you have to specify which
| matrix server you connect to when using it, so ISPs can't
| control that without some active probing of all possible
| endpoints.
| shaan7 wrote:
| Thats the beauty (/s) of Indian IT legislation, it doesn't
| have to make sense technically. It just needs to make sense
| to ministers who have no idea how the Internet works. It
| was funny a decade ago, but now it has become frustrating.
| TriNetra wrote:
| India is hosting G20 event in Kashmir but Pakistan doesn't want
| it to happen peacefully. There's already a terrorist attack [0]
| in which 5 army personnel lost their lives. As per intel more
| attacks are being planned in near future. The ban is related to
| this as per my reading. Not a perfect solution IMO.
|
| 0: https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/army-jawans-killed-
| ter...
| 3np wrote:
| Related, as in an opportunity and convenient excuse.
| vinay_ys wrote:
| Not just related. It is the actual matter at hand.
| 2Gkashmiri wrote:
| What a stupid way of making connections when they don't exist.
|
| Did terrorism start in India since e2ee became available? Was
| there no terrorism 5 years ago? 10? 20? 30? 40? Years ago?
|
| G20 meeting is scheduled for september so what does a random
| action months ago mean anything?
|
| Wasn't there such things last year or 2 years ago?
|
| So you are saying Pakistan is suddenly relying on the
| generosity of element to orchestrate their terror plots? Why
| are they using off the shelf products and not their own?
|
| Your reading is flawed because its painted by the propaganda
| machinery of the state wanting you to think in that way.
| nerdbert wrote:
| India doesn't want it to happen peacefully either - the choice
| of venue was a deliberate provocation.
| vivegi wrote:
| There are around 32 cities [1] that will be hosting the events
| around the G20 summit in Sept 2023.
|
| [1]: https://www.g20.org/en/g20-india-2023/host-cities/
| kevinak wrote:
| Good alternative: https://keet.io
| jeroenhd wrote:
| Can this talk to other people on Matrix?
|
| As for other alternatives, there's a nice list here:
| https://matrix.org/clients/
|
| Edit: this seems to be a peer-to-peer alternative chat client.
| I'm not sure you'll want to use peer-to-peer messengers under a
| government that issues such bans as the peer-to-peer nature
| exposes exactly who you talk to and how often. I think the
| federated model is a lot stronger in preserving privacy (though
| the Matrix team is running experiments on running peer-to-peer,
| which would create a very similar model and a similar threat).
| russelg wrote:
| Element is banned, not Matrix. A more realistic alternative
| would be a client such as FluffyChat.
| Arathorn wrote:
| or Cinny, given its country of origin... (https://cinny.in)
| 3np wrote:
| Closed source and proprietary. Not really comparable to FLOSS
| clients for p2p or federated networks.
| kevinak wrote:
| It will be open sourced soon according to the creators.
| kevincox wrote:
| I'll believe it when I see it.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2023-05-05 23:02 UTC)