[HN Gopher] The Role of Diet on the Gut Microbiome, Mood and Hap...
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The Role of Diet on the Gut Microbiome, Mood and Happiness
Author : mrleinad
Score : 165 points
Date : 2023-04-26 13:06 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov)
(TXT) w3m dump (pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov)
| GuB-42 wrote:
| The introduction seems to be contradicting itself
|
| > We found strong correlations between greater consumption of fat
| and protein to lower anxiety and depression
|
| > greater fat and carbohydrate intake is directly associated with
| anxiety and depression
|
| So? Is fat good or bad? (apparently, from the rest of the
| article, it is good)
| lcedp wrote:
| Perhaps, in the second sentence, they meant total calories.
| More fat with protein is good, more fat with carbs - bad.
| According to this paper. But, yes, the abstract section could
| be greatly improved.
| mattskr wrote:
| From what I gather, it means the combination of high fat, high
| protein and low carb leads to lower anxiety.
|
| The combination of high fat, high carb and low protein leads to
| higher anxiety.
| nimbius wrote:
| I believe the study is onto something pretty conclusive. Speaking
| anecdotally, ive never eaten anything from Chipotle that didnt
| leave me with a haunting sensation of fear and remorse.
| JPws_Prntr_Fngr wrote:
| Chipotlaway can take care of the bloodstains, if not the fear
| and remorse.
| Llamamoe wrote:
| I recommend this overview of effect of human diet on the gut
| microbiome:
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6950569/?report...
|
| Tl;dr is that while the gut microbiome varies by diet, it's
| largely stable after around 3 years of age, and even extreme
| dietary changes only result in impermanent shifts in relative
| abundances and function of your bacteria.
| fnord77 wrote:
| n = 20
| keyle wrote:
| "... we enrolled 20 adults" ... for 2 weeks?
|
| Is that really all it takes to produce a study now?
| amanaplanacanal wrote:
| This doesn't seem to be worded very well:
|
| > greater fat and carbohydrate intake is directly associated with
| anxiety and depression
|
| Carbohydrate was positively correlated, and fat was negatively
| correlated with anxiety and depression.
| samstave wrote:
| Your brain needs fats. Your muscles need carbs. You need to
| exercise both.
|
| Ill never forget the comment of my grandmother, a life-long
| surgical nurse to one of the top neurosurgeons in California.
|
| -
|
| My daughter was opening the fridge and eating handfuls of
| butter when she was tall enough to do so (abt 3 years old)
|
| I called my grandmother and asked her about this
|
| She said to me :
|
| _" let her do it, the brain needs fats to grow"_
|
| my daughter is smart as heck. She is 18 now and is wicked
| smart.
|
| --
|
| Also we benefit from the Norwegian gut biom... we can handle
| any lactose.
|
| I think that gut biome transfers are actually a new genre of
| biomedical science... (recall the ulcer guy? he proved that
| ulcers were a bad bacteria.)
|
| I really think that we should pursue gut biome treatments
| fnord77 wrote:
| The consumption of a carbohydrate-rich, protein-poor meal or
| snack can increase the synthesis of the brain
| neurotransmitter serotonin; proteins block this effect.
| thisisbrians wrote:
| The body can make carbs from proteins or fats. You don't
| _need_ dietary carbs (but will naturally get some in the
| course of eating a healthy diet).
| kulahan wrote:
| I think science is moving in this direction, but it's taking
| time. I've seen arguments in favor of fecal infusions (where
| they take fecal matter from someone with a healthy gut
| microbiome to someone with an unhealthy one). It has shown
| some promise in helping some rather stubborn illnesses. But
| still, these things take a long time.
| runlaszlorun wrote:
| I'll confess that I've only read the abstract, but was totally
| confused by this apparent contradiction...
|
| > We found strong correlations between greater consumption of fat
| and protein to lower anxiety and depression
|
| vs
|
| > We have shown that changing diet affects mood and happiness,
| that greater fat and carbohydrate intake is directly associated
| with anxiety and depression
|
| The first says fat reduces anxiety and depression. The second
| seems to imply it reduces it- unless "directly associated"
| actually means "negatively correlated"??
|
| Also, are they saying that increased fiber _reduces_ gut biome
| diversity?
|
| -edited for typo-
| twobitshifter wrote:
| I guess directly associated doesn't indicate the direction of
| the correlation. The paper could use another round of edits,
| there are several confusing phrases.
| dave84 wrote:
| The word 'and' appears to be important here. Fat and protein.
| Fat and carbohydrate.
| kelipso wrote:
| Looks like they didn't find significant effects when you eat
| fat, carb, protein independently (maybe they didn't look at it
| independently, idk). But if you eat fat along with protein, or
| if you eat fat along with carb, they find significant effects.
| throwawaaarrgh wrote:
| Last year, I went on a diet of only strawberry flavored candy
| peeps. I lost 50 lbs, my skin cleared up, and I feel like I have
| more energy. Clearly an all candy diet is something we need more
| research on, as it seems the status quo is to undersell the
| advantages of this high sucrose diet.
|
| Disclaimer: I now have Type 2 diabetes.
| SCAQTony wrote:
| I was disappointed how vague carbs were defined, but I suspect we
| can all agree the best diet for an omnivore is the least
| processed food is the best choice. Anything that comes in a box
| or can should be suspect. Soup is best when the broth is made
| from leftover chicken bones and the rest of it with chicken meat
| and raw veggies. Fruit is better than candy, fish is better than
| bacon. YMMV
| feoren wrote:
| > I suspect we can all agree the best diet for an omnivore is
| the least processed food is the best choice
|
| Given that nobody can even _define_ what "processed food"
| means: no, no we cannot all agree on that. It's an utterly
| meaningless term.
| mattwest wrote:
| Last year, I started an experiment with my diet.
|
| It started with the idea of eating as cheaply as possible with
| nutrient dense foods, but I started off with an elimination diet.
|
| I chose 2-3 "meals" that I could easily prep and only cost $2-4
| each. Mostly eggs, ground beef, white rice, potatoes. I quickly
| added bell peppers and onions.
|
| I tracked macros, and filled in the micros with new additions.
| Calories as well of course.
|
| The result was fantastic.
|
| 1. I got really fast at cooking, and even now that I cook more
| complex meals, I'm much faster than before. Probably because I
| introduced new ingredients gradually and maintained efficiency in
| the kitchen.
|
| 2. My ability to eyeball macros on a plate is pretty good now.
| It's much easier to regulate my energy levels because of this. I
| can also guess my bodyweight within ~5lbs before checking the
| scale.
|
| 3. I figured out what I digest most easily. As an athlete, I
| can't really afford to have days where I'm "bathroom dependent".
|
| The consistency in all these aspects has greatly improved my
| life.
|
| If you want to get better at cooking, understand your body
| better, save time, and eat a healthier diet, this method might
| work well for you.
|
| Disclaimer: after the first 2-3 weeks, I switched from 100%
| compliance to ~80% compliance. That way I get the benefits of
| regimented eating without going crazy. Even if you eat healthy,
| it's not good to obsess over calories and food options.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _I chose 2-3 "meals" that I could easily prep and only cost
| $2-4 each. Mostly eggs, ground beef, white rice, potatoes. I
| quickly added bell peppers and onions_
|
| I do this for home lunches. The gustatory and health benefits
| of a varied diet are too much to ignore. But the efficiency
| gains, and comfort in the familiar, are also appealing.
|
| So one of eggs or salmon; brown rice or farro; and combinations
| of bell peppers, alliums (usually onions, scallions and
| garlic), cherry tomatoes and any other junk I have in the
| vegetable drawer. Bonus points for cooked in a wok, because
| cook time is like thirty seconds and you keep crisp yet still
| sweetened veggies.
|
| > _figured out what I digest most easily. As an athlete, I can
| 't really afford to have days where I'm "bathroom dependent"_
|
| Would note that most of our guts are super adaptable. Avoiding
| foods that upset your stomach is reasonable. But doing this too
| much can sensitize the gut.
| reubenswartz wrote:
| I make a salad most days for lunch. Some variation in
| ingredients, but I can have a healthy meal in < 5 minutes that
| I actually crave and I have good energy through out the
| afternoon. If you had told me when I was younger that I do this
| and it's not a punishment, I would not have believed you, but
| highly recommend.
| Balooga wrote:
| I lost about 70lbs in about 10 months by cutting out processed
| foods, cutting out foods with added sugar, eating foods having a
| _low_ glycemic index, eating a lot of chicken, whole vegetables,
| whole fruit. And by not juicing, and not drinking smoothies.
|
| I also did a lot of strength training so as to lose fat and not
| muscle.
|
| I didn't try to reduce the amount of calories I was eating, just
| change where those calories were coming from.
|
| Weight went _poof_. Energy went way up and my mood improved.
| snapcaster wrote:
| Great job! I hope you're proud of yourself 70 pounds is pretty
| amazing
| wincy wrote:
| I lost 80 pounds eating hot dogs and kimchi for about six
| months. No exercise at all.
|
| I don't know what this means exactly only that people act like
| I'm crazy when I mention it.
| Balooga wrote:
| Not crazy. Well done!
|
| The thing with losing weight is that it doesn't differentiate
| between fat and muscle. So unless the body has a reason to
| keep the muscle around (the weight training) the body will
| absorb it (because of the calorie deficit).
|
| The weight training helps limit the weight loss to the fat.
| This will also help to keep the body from looking like a
| deflated balloon when all that weight is lost.
| feoren wrote:
| > cutting out foods with added sugar, eating foods having a low
| glycemic index, eating a lot of chicken, whole vegetables,
| whole fruit
|
| This is great advice for most people, depending on what "whole"
| means. Am I allowed to cut and cook my vegetables? Stick them
| in a food processor? Are they still "whole" then? I've never
| understood why people even bother to throw this word "whole"
| into anything. You just mean you didn't drink smoothies and
| concentrated fruit juice?
|
| > cutting out processed foods
|
| This is utterly meaningless bullshit.
|
| > I also did a lot of strength training so as to lose fat and
| not muscle.
|
| This may be the main reason you lost weight and feel better. If
| nothing else, it may be the reason you were able to stick to
| your dietary changes. I think everyone I know who lost a
| significant amount of weight was into strength training while
| they did it.
| NegativeK wrote:
| When people refer to "processed foods", they're talking about
| things like frozen dinners and industrially prepared fried
| foods. Similarly, when people talk about "whole vegetables",
| I assume they're referring to buying the ingredient in the
| produce section and eating it without a bunch of fats and
| sugars.
|
| > This is utterly meaningless bullshit.
|
| This is unnecessarily combative. Unless you just want to
| score internet points by insulting people, everyone
| (including you) will get a lot more out of discussions if you
| steelman the other person's argument.
| smolder wrote:
| Processed foods are a vaguely defined and somewhat arbitrary
| category of foods, but that does _not_ mean the correlation
| between foods being highly processed and unhealthy is BS.
| Things that have ingredients like brominated vegetable oil or
| various other preservatives and stabilizers for texture and
| shelf life, artificial colors and lots of HFCS, meat slurries
| that have been pumped through tubes and formed into precise
| shapes, the "simulated yogurt" that wrapped the raisins in
| my trail mix... None of that stuff is a favor to your health.
|
| Food optimized for mass market scale and profitability is
| practically never optimized for nutritional value, except as
| a hollow gimmick, e.g. Vitamin Water.
| Balooga wrote:
| > cutting out foods with added sugar, eating foods having a
| low glycemic index, eating a lot of chicken, whole
| vegetables, whole fruit
|
| >> This is great advice for most people, depending on what
| "whole" means. Am I allowed to cut and cook my vegetables?
|
| Cooked, steamed, cut. Yes. Basically just don't "juice" or
| smoothie anything. The idea is to have your digestive system
| do as much of the "processing" as possible, and not outsource
| this to some external system. The longer it takes the food to
| digest, the longer you stay feeling "full". And feeling full
| really helps when it comes to weight loss. It's also harder
| to eat a dozen large whole oranges and bananas than it is to
| drink them.
|
| > cutting out processed foods
|
| >> This is utterly meaningless bullshit.
|
| Keeping the glycemic index low means you automatically avoid
| foods like TV dinners, McDonalds burgers, highly processed
| white bread, etc.
| RugnirViking wrote:
| Interesting. Note this has not yet been peer-reviewed, so
| findings must be taken with an especially large pinch of salt
| even compared to your average paper. In this case, they only
| looked at 20 adults over 2 weeks, so I feel that any conclusions
| drawn here are circumstancial at best.
|
| Apparently the reseach was funded by NIH and therefore at least
| partly the taxpayer. Seems like a bit of a strange study to fund,
| in my opinion nothing useful can possibly result from such a tiny
| study. I tried tracking down the specific grant they were given
| (they mention NIH award UL1 TR-002378 in the disclosure section
| of the paper but I can't find anything from that)
| peebz wrote:
| Don't go too heavy on the salt.
| RugnirViking wrote:
| I suppose without further research we won't have any clue
| what effect salt will or won't have on my emotional state ;)
|
| But seriously, there is pretty much no point discussing the
| conclusions of such a deeply flawed paper.
| kevviiinn wrote:
| Most grants fund large projects out of which smaller papers are
| written. I don't think any grant is funding individual papers
| like you seem to imply
| eyeundersand wrote:
| This was going to be my comment too. N = 20 is atrocious and
| that too only over 2 weeks. Think any significant, measurable
| changes to mental health outcomes would probably take a lot
| longer than that to manifest. I further find results from any
| kind of "food recall" surveys (or just surveys in general) hard
| to believe. Stated vs. revealed preferences/outcomes should be
| a bigger debate imo.
| robwwilliams wrote:
| Absolutely right. This is not even a proper pilot study.
| c_elegant wrote:
| > Some limitations to this study beyond the subjective nature
| of the term "mood," are compliance with following the study
| protocol, lack of exact control over the first and final diets,
| and uBiome's bankruptcy that limited sample size further than
| expected.
|
| This is what you're looking for: it's a pilot study seeded by
| now-disgraced/bankrupt uBiome.
| salamanderman wrote:
| This should be the top comment.
| blakesterz wrote:
| "After the diet change, we observed significant changes in
| measures of anxiety, well-being and happiness, and without
| changes in gut microbiome diversity. We found strong correlations
| between greater consumption of fat and protein to lower anxiety
| and depression, while consuming higher percentages of
| carbohydrates was associated with increased stress, anxiety, and
| depression."
|
| I think most of us would agree that makes sense? Eat like crap,
| feel like crap? "We also found strong negative
| correlations between total calories and total fiber intake with
| gut microbiome diversity without correlations to measures of
| mental health, mood or happiness.... inversely correlated with
| gut microbiome diversity."
|
| I kept reading this second paragraph trying to understand the
| "without correlations" part. And also the negative correlations
| part. And then the full-text has this, which helped I think:
| "Furthermore, total calories and fiber had a negative correlation
| with gut microbiome diversity, and anxiety and depression
| decrease as the gut diversity increases."
| runlaszlorun wrote:
| > I think most of us would agree that makes sense? Eat like
| crap, feel like crap?
|
| I'm just an average joe trying to figure out how to improve a
| diet, but I haven't found much of a consensus regarding fats vs
| proteins vs carbohydrates.
| denvaar wrote:
| In the same boat. Lately I try to just focus on cutting out
| processed foods and sugar.
| throw8383833jj wrote:
| Nutritionists will tell you what really matters is what type
| of fat/protein/carbohydrate. It's not one or the other. You
| need to eat plant based whole foods protein, fat and carbs
| too. For the most part, humans are carbohydrate processing
| machines (good carbs: like beans, whole grains, fruits,
| vegetables), these should be your staples.
| snapcaster wrote:
| I disagree with this advice. I think getting carbs as low
| as you're personally able to and maximizing fat + protein
| is going to be way more successful
|
| source: me, a guy who lost 50 pounds 5 years ago and hasn't
| regained it
| faizshah wrote:
| That diet is good for weight loss it's not good for
| overall health. Search on google scholar about "Whole
| food plant based diet" you will find many studies on this
| diet especially focusing on cardiovascular health
| improvements.
|
| A good starter is the BROAD study:
| https://www.nature.com/articles/nutd20173
| ericmcer wrote:
| Just try stuff out, you have your whole life to figure out
| what works for you diet wise. You won't die if you cut out
| carbs or meat or only eat hard boiled eggs for a week or
| something.
|
| It may feel like a huge sacrifice eating a hyper-restrictive
| diet for 2-3 weeks but you have thousands of weeks of life.
| Personally I feel pretty dialed in with a diet high in fatty
| meats (beef, salmon) fibrous carbs and cooked vegetables (raw
| vegetables mess my stomach up).
|
| Currently I am playing around with my "default weight" and if
| it can be adjusted. There is a weight we all sit at if we eat
| a relatively healthy diet to satiety and I am wondering if it
| can be adjusted. i.e. if someone sits at 170-180 for years
| and then goes through some intense shift that drops them to
| 150, will they bounce all the way back to their old "normal"
| range or is a new lower one established where they can
| consume the same number of calories to satiety but their
| weight remains in the lower range.
| pnathan wrote:
| The corner of the weightlifting world I keep an eye on has
| centralized around protein, veggies, and few carbs.
|
| The other angle to look at is satiety; good food should also
| have a satiety so you don't go back and munch. :)
| hombre_fatal wrote:
| Minimize saturated fat (by replacing it with unsaturated
| fat). Get enough protein. Eat healthy carbs*.
|
| * On HN and other social media, "carbs" is a euphemism for
| sugar and cake rather than beans and vegetables, so people
| will talk about how carbs made them fat when you know they're
| not talking about slamming back-to-back cans of garbanzos.
|
| And don't take any nutrition advice seriously that doesn't
| break fat apart into saturated and unsaturated.
| danesparza wrote:
| "slamming back-to-back cans of garbanzos"
|
| I think I just threw up a little bit in my mouth ...
| hombre_fatal wrote:
| You're missing out. Here's Internet Shaquille's video on
| how to prepare them as a snack in 5 minutes:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EU76q3Vf3Q
|
| Highly recommend you try it. Get the Del Monte canned
| garbanzos if you live in North America.
| Loughla wrote:
| Garbanzo beans have the texture of old ear wax, is sort
| of my problem with them. I have never been able to tell
| if I even like how they taste, because the texture is
| just so very off-putting.
| philote wrote:
| Do you like hummus?
| xdavidliu wrote:
| I agree, yet I love them anyway. Shrimp, on the other
| hand...
| amanaplanacanal wrote:
| As far as I can tell the best research is that saturated
| fat is pretty neutral. Earlier research blaming saturated
| fat was flawed.
| hombre_fatal wrote:
| There is a whole mountain of evidence that saturated fat
| increases LDL cholesterol and better markers like Apo B.
| Placebo controlled, double-blind interventions. You can
| even run the experiment on yourself with monthly blood
| panels.
|
| Are you contesting that?
|
| That's pretty settled science. Low-carb influencers don't
| even deny that, so they instead try to hand-wave that
| high LDL/ApoB aren't a problem. Usually with some
| quackery over how atherosclerosis works, usually claiming
| that lipids only pass through the arterial endothelium
| when it's inflamed (false, they pass through anyways).
|
| The balance of evidence showing that LDL cholesterol and
| better markers like Apo B cause CVD and atherosclerosis
| is so huge I'm not sure where I'd start if I wanted to
| deny it.
|
| What research do you think is so convincing that it
| supersedes this balance of evidence?
| uberduper wrote:
| My understanding of the low carb argument here is that
| LDL isn't inherently bad, but oxidized LDL is and that
| LDL requires a high blood sugar environment for
| oxidation. I don't have any reason to know if that's
| right or wrong. I hope it's right, but I also have made
| efforts to avoid processed meats high in saturated fats
| (like salami, cold cuts) just in case.
| el_don_almighty wrote:
| I was going to ask what you think "LDL" cholesterol means
| with regard to its actual fractional measurement instead
| of calculated volumetric level, but then I decided you
| seemed content with your worldview and it wasn't really
| disturbing me personally.
|
| As I get older, I find more enjoyment using my magnifying
| glass for discovery than burning
| amanaplanacanal wrote:
| You have tapped into a logical fallacy. A is associated
| with B. B is associated with C. This in no way indicates
| that A causes C. It just doesn't. You have to show that A
| and C are associated, then you have to determine
| causation. You can't skip steps.
|
| I see this all the time in nutrition "science", and it is
| just bad science.
| adriand wrote:
| I think "healthy carbs" might be a bit too vague. There are
| simple and complex carbohydrates, and the latter can be
| further broken down between starchy carbohydrates like
| grains and fibrous carbohydrates like vegetables. There is
| nothing inherently unhealthy about any of these types of
| carbohydrates: simple carbs (e.g. fructose) are in fruit,
| complex carbs in whole grains, etc. I think it is probably
| more helpful to avoid processed foods rather than to try
| and label carbohydrates themselves as healthy or unhealthy.
| hombre_fatal wrote:
| I don't think it's vague considering my second paragraph.
| Eat whole foods. Avoid the Coca-Cola and cake and
| packaged goods that most people are referring to when
| they demonize carbs.
|
| Fruit and vegetables, go ahead. I just lightly pan fried
| some potato cubes and tossed in random veg for breakfast.
|
| I don't want to do a whole diet breakdown every time I
| scrawl something about nutrition on HN. But more HNers
| should subscribe to evidence-based reporters on the topic
| like Simon Hill and Gil Carvalho rather than evidence
| deniers like most of the low-carb space and quacks like
| Eric Berg.
| amanaplanacanal wrote:
| Whole fruit is probably fine. Fruit _juices_ are more
| similar to that can of coke and should probably be
| avoided.
| Quarrel wrote:
| Step one of almost all diets should be "Don't drink
| calories".
|
| Become a HydroHomie today.
| ca_tech wrote:
| Agreed. I have found it very helpful to not think about
| how "healthy" something is. Rather think about how the
| body will use that food as fuel. Andy Galpin has a good
| video going through the physiology of how the body
| processes carbohydrates.
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdMOsnILT00 Once I had an
| understanding of how macro nutrients are processed in the
| body and how they are used as fuel I could better match
| meals to intended outcomes.
| TylerLives wrote:
| A different take on PUFAs -
| https://raypeat.com/articles/articles/unsaturatedfats.shtml
| hombre_fatal wrote:
| A different take in the same way an astrologist's blog
| gives us a different take on the planet Saturn.
|
| If anything Ray Peat, a quack, says is true, then why do
| things like PUFAs improve human health outcomes in the
| literature? He says PUFAs cause atherosclerosis and SFA
| protects against it, so why does human outcome data show
| the opposite? And how many animal studies is he going to
| bring up?
|
| Ray Peat is a good example of how far contrarianism will
| take you in the nutrition celeb space. Probably because
| we like to decide on what we want to eat first and then
| shop for claims that support it which is 10000x easier
| than deciding on what to eat based on the greatest
| evidence.
|
| Here's a good post that summarizes some PUFA literature
| in response to the social media "seed oil" scare:
| https://www.the-nutrivore.com/post/a-comprehensive-
| rebuttal-...
| TylerLives wrote:
| Great questions. I'm busy right now, but I promise to go
| through the article in the next few days and respond. I'm
| open to having my mind changed, though I must admit I
| started feeling better when I started following Ray
| Peat's advice. I wonder if it could be that different
| people respond differently to different diets. Have you
| tried sharing your article on raypeatforum? You say that
| he's a "quack", but I've never seen him arguing in bad
| faith and people there are usually friendly and try to be
| objective and open to new ideas.
| snapcaster wrote:
| Did you confuse saturated and unsaturated fat? Saturated
| fat isn't bad for you and unsaturated fats have some
| serious issues in how your body uses them. This comment
| feels like it was posted by someone in 1997
| millimeterman wrote:
| The strong scientific consensus is that saturated fats
| are worse for you than unsaturated fats.
|
| The idea that saturated fats are better than unsaturated
| fats is a small minority opinion. It's all the rage with
| wellness influencer types, but it is currently supported
| by far less evidence than the consensus.
| Snoo7654 wrote:
| I think you might have them confused yourself. First
| result from google: "Saturated fats (including a type
| called trans fat) tend to stay solid and can cause fatty
| deposits in blood vessels, leading to atherosclerosis
| ("hardening of the arteries"). By contrast, unsaturated
| fats stay liquid at room temperature and are less likely
| to clog your arteries."
| ehaliewicz2 wrote:
| Nope, there are recent studies that dispute this. Of
| course, there are older studies that dispute those newer
| studies.
|
| However, it is clear that dietary fat does not just
| directly go into your circulatory system.
| EFreethought wrote:
| There are different types of carbs. Generally simple carbs
| (usually called "sugars") are more likely to get converted to
| fat if you do not use them for energy right away.
|
| A few decades ago food companies came out with "low fat"
| versions of snacks that had a lot of sugar in them. They
| still made people fat because people are more of them, since
| they thought the low fat versions were better for them.
|
| And now there are a lot of people pushing low-carb or no-carb
| diets saying all carbs are bad. Your body does not process
| whole wheat bread the same way as a ho-ho. I knew a dietician
| who said being on a ketosis diet is as good for you as being
| on a cirrhosis diet. On the other hand, there are some breads
| that have high fructose corn syrup added, so you need to look
| out for that.
|
| The same principle applies to fats. Omega-3 fatty acids are
| good for you, and other types of fats are not. There are
| saturated fats (aka trans fats, generally bad),
| polyunsaturated, monounsaturated (not as bad). Your body does
| not process these in exactly the same ways, so saying you are
| eating more or less fat than before is not really as useful
| of a statement as it seems.
|
| So you cannot say that all fats are equally bad or all carbs
| are equally good.
|
| I do not think the same principle applies to the other two
| macros. I think you can say alcohol is bad and protein is
| good and leave it at that.
| stronglikedan wrote:
| I improved mine significantly by just cutting out processed
| foods. Almost everything I eat is made from whole
| ingredients, and no artificial or "diet" anything. I'm in
| much better shape, both mentally and physically, because of
| it. It also helps with portion control, since I'm getting the
| maximum amount of nutrients from my food, so I don't "feel
| hungry later".
| feoren wrote:
| > processed foods
|
| > whole ingredients
|
| These are utterly meaningless terms. You "process" food by
| cutting and cooking it. Everything is processed. Everything
| is GMO -- have you seen what corn looked like before humans
| bred it? Everything is organic. Everything is "whole".
| Nutrition is too complicated and too individualized for
| these nonsense labels.
|
| > I'm getting the maximum amount of nutrients from my food
|
| This is utter nonsense. _Some_ processing steps remove
| _some_ nutrients from _some_ foods. Other processing steps
| _add_ nutrients that you need. Plenty of foods have
| nutrients that are completely unavailable for your body
| until you cook it (many veggies) -- PROCESSING! Other
| nutrients are destroyed by too much cooking (Vitamin C, I
| believe). You better be glad the salt you eat is
| "processed" by adding iodine to it. The water you drink is
| "processed" by adding fluoride to it. Those last 2 are some
| of the biggest public health successes in human history.
|
| I'm glad you're feeling better, but it's 100% from paying
| attention to what you're eating, and 0% from this bullshit
| about "whole" or "unprocessed" foods with "maximum
| nutrients". Stop spreading this bullshit.
| qzx_pierri wrote:
| You're nitpicking
| inglor_cz wrote:
| "Stop spreading this bullshit."
|
| Looking at the entirety of your comment, you should
| really apply this advice to yourself.
|
| Highly processed or ultra-processed food is absolutely a
| meaningful term. The United Nations published so-called
| NOVA food classification which divides food into four
| categories by the amount of processing it received.
|
| Category 4 is what OP was talking about. Industrially
| processed stuff full of preservatives, artificial
| coloring, hydrogenated oils, protein isolate,
| maltodextrin, invert sugar etc. Unlike the other three
| categories, this sort of industrial processing is a
| relative newcomer, it wasn't even a thing 100 or 150
| years ago, so it is entirely plausible that our guts and
| our gut biome may not be happy about it.
| feoren wrote:
| > Highly processed or ultra-processed food is absolutely
| a meaningful term.
|
| And yet nobody said "avoid ultra-processed food as
| defined by NOVA". They said "avoid processed foods" and
| "eat whole foods". It's extremely generous to assume
| everyone reading the former translates that in their head
| to "avoid ultra-processed food as defined by NOVA". And
| the latter is meaningless.
|
| Even if that _is_ what they really mean, that 's really
| surface-level advice. There are foods in Tier 4 that are
| just fine. There are foods in Tier 4 that are _more_
| nutritious than "whole foods" are. Note that if you add
| whey protein to your soy milk, you have just _created an
| ultra-processed food_!
| npunt wrote:
| It sounds like you're expecting others to provide
| complex-but-accurate advice when OP and most of the
| responders are happy with simple-and-implementable
| advice. A lot of the discourse around diets comes down to
| tension between these two.
|
| Simple-and-implementable is something you can deploy in
| the moment without knowing things beforehand. If you're
| at a grocery store, you can ask yourself "is this really
| processed?" as a simple filter that will largely steer
| you right. Similarly, Michael Pollan's advice to "Eat
| food. Not too much. Mostly plants" resonates with a huge
| number of people because it's a simple, actionable, not
| very fussy way to approach eating.
|
| Complex-but-accurate advice is stuff like 'let me look up
| if this follows the definition of tier 3 or 4 processed',
| or 'I have to have 5g net carbs today and this is 1.2g so
| I have 3.8g left'. This has a much higher cognitive load,
| requires a lot of research and pre-planning, and is
| unlikely to be implemented in the moment nor sustained
| long term. It's also a place where people can develop
| unhealthy psychological relationships with food and
| eating by being hypervigilant about complex rules.
|
| Most people find their lives work best with simple-and-
| implementable rules of thumb for food.
| soneca wrote:
| > _" You "process" food by cutting and cooking it.
| Everything is processed"_
|
| No one means that cutting a carrot make it into
| "processed food". You are changing a mostly commonly
| understood definition to a new wanna-be-technically-
| correct one you just made up only to suit your argument.
|
| There is a grey area in the definition of processed
| foods, but it's not close as large as your definition
| maintains.
| eikenberry wrote:
| There is no commonly understood definition of processed
| foods. That is the problem. People throw the term around
| like it does mean something but they can't define it.
|
| Please show me I'm wrong and give a concise definition of
| what makes some food processed. The internet needs a good
| definition as these conversations always just end up with
| hand waving as there is no consensus of what food is
| what.
| abdullahkhalids wrote:
| The UN has a well defined categorization of foods
| according to the amount and type of processing [1]. You
| can identify the processing level of many food item by
| using this search engine [2].
|
| [1] https://www.fao.org/3/ca5644en/CA5644EN.pdf
|
| [2] https://world.openfoodfacts.org/product/3017620422003
| /nutell...
| feoren wrote:
| Thank you for these links. If nothing else, the UN
| document at least defines what it's talking about. It's
| 3rd tier, "processed food", is basically: watch out, they
| added oil, salt, or other preservatives. The same people
| worried about "processed foods" are adding their own oil
| to foods (rightly so, usually!). But when a factory does
| it, _LOOK OUT!_. I mean, yes: watch your salt intake if
| you eat a lot of canned foods. That 's real advice.
|
| It's not until you get to Tier 4 (ultra-processed foods)
| that you start to see anything legitimately concerning.
| And indeed if the advice everyone was parroting was
| "avoid ultra-processed foods as defined by the FAO", then
| I'd care a lot less about it. Even still, the FAO says
| that ingredients added to ultra-processed foods include:
|
| > varieties of sugars (fructose, high-fructose corn
| syrup, 'fruit juice concentrates', invert sugar,
| maltodextrin, dextrose, lactose), modified oils
| (hydrogenated or interesterified oils) and sources of
| protein (hydrolysed proteins, soya protein isolate,
| gluten, casein, whey protein, and 'mechanically separated
| meat').
|
| Avoid sugars and foods with high glycemic indices.
| Absolutely avoid high-fructose corn syrup. Avoid
| hydrogenated fats; there is clear evidence they are
| harmful. Those sources of protein? Health nuts add that
| stuff to their soy milk all the time! Details matter!
|
| My point is that there are _specific_ processing steps
| that affect _specific_ foods. Advice on how to identify
| and avoid those foods is fine. But that 's not what
| anyone is saying: they're saying "avoid processed foods"
| and "eat whole foods". Those terms are _meaningless_ as
| they use them. It 's non-advice. It's water-muddying
| bordering on misinformation.
| snapcaster wrote:
| What a weird hill to die on. I think you might be reading
| more "woo" into the comment you're responding to than is
| necessary. It's fine if you keep eating your
| microwaveable factory slop and keep convincing yourself
| it's identical to cutting a carrot or cooking vegetables
| but I'm skeptical you'll convince many people of this
| beezlebroxxxxxx wrote:
| There is so much debate and disagreement in nutrition that
| "eat no or very little processed foods; eat a lot of
| vegetables and fruits; and don't eat too much" is basically
| all you need to do or say. A lot of people wildly
| overcomplicate it, but if you don't have a metabolic
| disorder or a clearly defined dietary condition, then you
| can have a diverse and healthy diet pretty easily. A plus
| is you almost always end up learning to cook.
| brian_cunnie wrote:
| > fats vs proteins vs carbohydrates
|
| There's a Stanford professor who did a study comparing low-
| carb vs. low-fat diets. The surprising result: both groups
| lost weight.
|
| My take (speculative): both groups cut out a lot of processed
| food. It's the processed food that's making us fat.
| mahogany wrote:
| You may be right about processed food, but I have a more
| boring speculation: most people lose weight by starting
| _any diet_ simply because they begin to think more
| carefully about the food they are ingesting.
| nawgz wrote:
| [flagged]
| jader201 wrote:
| > _Really? Are you reading articles sponsored by Big Ag or
| something?_
|
| > _Edit: downvoters really need to open up Wikipedia and
| read "Essential Nutrients"_ > _This is a comical set of
| people downvoting me while literally stating facts, because
| Big Ag propaganda worked on them_
|
| Regardless of your facts, I'd say the downvotes are from
| your tone here.
|
| See the guidelines[1], particularly the first two
| paragraphs under "In Comments":
|
| > _Be kind. Don 't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't
| cross-examine. Edit out swipes._
|
| > _Please don 't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including
| at the rest of the community._
|
| [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| BobbyJo wrote:
| Fats are not universally healthy. Saturated fats (above a
| threshold) and Trans fats are bad for you, the latter being
| very unhealthy and basically the worst thing you can eat.
|
| Conversely, the right carbohydrates can be very healthy
| when consumed correctly.
|
| "Essential" means just that, essential. It doesn't say
| anything about how much you should eat, how often, when, or
| anything else. Plenty of unessential things are good to
| consume, like non-essential amino acids.
|
| The leading cause of death for the developed world is heart
| disease, and a diet high in saturated fat and low in fiber
| is a great way to get it.
| nawgz wrote:
| [flagged]
| BobbyJo wrote:
| > I, like anyone with any knowledge of nutrition, am
| saying "it's obviously protein and fat, the stuff that
| helps you grow"
|
| Every major study comparing keto and other more balanced
| diets disagrees with you. Carbs aren't just good for what
| they are mixed with, but also because they can displace
| more harmful sources of energy, like saturated fats. Most
| things that are 0 carb, have lots of saturated fat and
| cholesterol. Note: Dietary cholesterol can have a
| disproportionate affect on blood lipids depending on your
| genetics, despite all the people clamoring that it
| doesn't matter.
|
| It's not nit-picking if you're giving blanket advice
| that's misleading.
|
| Necessary does not mean sufficient. In biology, necessary
| doesn't even mean harmless. It is often best to get
| small, or even minimal, amounts of needed things, like
| salt or iron.
| nawgz wrote:
| > Necessary does not mean sufficient. In biology,
| necessary doesn't even mean harmless
|
| Has anyone even used the word "necessary" in the entire
| thread? What are you on about?
|
| > It's not nit-picking if you're giving blanket advice
| that's misleading
|
| What advice am I giving that's misleading?
|
| I am stating: in general, carbs are unnecessary for your
| health, and the goal behind consuming them should be to
| acquire nutrients, not calories from carbohydrate
| sources. Carbohydrate sources can help with energy, but
| little else. Eating healthy proteins and fats should be
| prioritized.
|
| Thoughts of eating processed bullshit with full of
| saturated and trans fats is only coming out of your side
| of this conversation.
| joshmanders wrote:
| Except you need carbohydrates. Many people consider "carbs"
| as bread, sugar and other "bad" things but many things you
| consider "good" are also carbs, like veggies.
| nawgz wrote:
| > Except you need carbohydrates
|
| Your usage of need is directly contrary to the dictionary
| definition of need. Have you heard of ketosis?
|
| > many things you consider "good" are also carbs, like
| veggies
|
| Veggies are not good for the carbs they contain (Fiber
| has some value of course, but not really as a
| carbohydrate), but instead for the nutrients (commonly
| known as "vitamins/minerals") they contain in edible
| forms for our bodies.
|
| There is no purpose to carbohydrates in and of
| themselves, they provide one energy-burning source and
| certain classes of carbohydrates are consumed to provide
| important nutrients, but the carbohydrate itself is never
| a high value intake.
| numbsafari wrote:
| > Have you heard of ketosis?
|
| Do you even lift?
| guhcampos wrote:
| "Never" is a bit extreme. It's almost never high value
| for the average programmer Joe, but super high value for
| athletes, physically taxing jobs, amateur runners and so
| on.
|
| Both carbs value and dread come from their quick, easily
| convertible energy, which used to be a big plus when we
| were all working the land or building stuff, but indeed
| has very little value when we sit on our assets all day.
| ldehaan wrote:
| [dead]
| mfer wrote:
| I wish it detailed the types of carbs.
|
| Carbs from whole grains and things like fruit are different
| from processed carbs where the supporting parts of the food are
| removed. That's why Keto bread will look at fiber compared to
| total carbs. It depends on the form of carb.
|
| I wish the overview touched on the different types of carbs and
| their impact. Not all carbs are alike.
| DrThunder wrote:
| Better, but still carbs. It's just harder to eat a lot of
| those. I would challenge "whole grains" actually being any
| better at all.
|
| Honestly, I think the whole fiber intake stuff is bs.
| Anecdotally, I feel much better on a low fiber high protein
| diet than anything else. So does the rest of my family.
|
| My opinion on carbs is that you should only eat them when
| you're going to burn them quickly. That's what they're for,
| to give you a big energy boost. They're not for consuming and
| then sitting on your ass.
| mfer wrote:
| Low fiber can leave you feeling good in the short term but
| it has long term health implications, I've read. The book
| Fiber Fueled [1] talks about what happens with fiber in our
| gut and the impact on our bodies at a high level. The
| author (an MD GI doctor) provides the scientific background
| for his claims for those that want it.
|
| [1] https://www.amazon.com/Fiber-Fueled-Plant-Based-
| Optimizing-M...
| shafyy wrote:
| I don't know man, I feel pretty great when eating fries :)
| sschueller wrote:
| I think there is a diminish of return on such foods. Fries
| are now pimped with bacon, cheese and all kinds of stuff.
| Sweet itmes are so over sweatened that if you eat a
| strawberry afterwards it tastes bland.
|
| If we reduced the sweatiness of items we could enjoy them
| just as much as our senses adapt quite quickly. If I stop
| sugar for just 2 days and then eat something somewhat sweet
| it tastes very sweat.
|
| It's a big issue with the food industry trying to outsweet
| each other because people are so used to the taste of sugar.
| Artificial sweeteners are also to blame for setting a hight
| expectation of sweetness in products.
| swalling wrote:
| Potatoes produce the highest level of satiety compared to
| other carbs.
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6267283/
| Combined with fats via frying or baking, and it's not a joke
| that they would make you feel the most full compared to a
| similar amount of rice or refined wheat bread/pasta.
|
| A slightly healthier but equally delicious replacement for
| fries are oven-roasted or grilled duck fat potatoes with the
| skin on.
| hinkley wrote:
| Fiber reducing biodiversity would be news. I thought consensus
| was the other way around?
| MavropaliasG wrote:
| That's the kind of garbage results you get when you run a
| study with only 20 participants. Also they changed to both
| mediterranean and ketogenic? Wtf
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| Yeah, I thought fiber is literally food for gut microbes.
| WTF?
| goda90 wrote:
| I wonder if it's a case of soluble vs insoluble fiber.
| Insoluble fiber is often described as speeding up transit
| through the intestines, which might leave microbes less food
| to eat, or increase the microbes being driven out before they
| can establish.
| minsight wrote:
| Microbes eat fiber. That's what a prebiotic is.
| hinkley wrote:
| I had a similar thought.
|
| I had a laugh years ago when I realized that jam and
| jellies are full of soluble fiber and my entire childhood
| my parents were sneaking fiber into my diet. My whole
| childhood was a lie!
| BobbyJo wrote:
| It was a 2 week study, and diet was only changed for a week.
| The time period was probably long enough for existing
| microbes to decline due to environmental changes, but not
| long enough for new microbes that favor the new conditions to
| move in.
|
| If you've ever dramatically changed your diet, you'll know a
| week is not long enough for the resulting GI upset to
| subside. It often takes a month or longer.
| agumonkey wrote:
| > Eat like crap, feel like crap?
|
| feel like crap, eat like crap
|
| starting the cycle
| ldehaan wrote:
| [dead]
| NegativeK wrote:
| > Eat like crap, feel like crap?
|
| The feelings I associate with eating like crap are brief
| malaise in the form of a tummy ache. The article is talking
| about more significant changes, such as overall happiness
| versus depression.
|
| Anecdote time: I've recently discovered that a food intolerance
| makes me surprisingly grumpy for at least a couple of days.
| I'll find myself (fortunately in my internal monologue) arguing
| with people over trivial stuff. Completely avoiding the
| ingredient, however, pretty much nukes that behavior.
| darthrupert wrote:
| The idea that fat and protein are good while carbs are "crap"
| is controversial.
| augment003 wrote:
| Is it? I haven't seen any controversy around it, just a
| gradual shift to recommendations for more protein and fat vs
| less carbs.
| darthrupert wrote:
| I haven't heard of any such thing, except made by people
| who are selling something.
| snapcaster wrote:
| Did you talk to anyone who successfully lost weight and
| kept it off? I have, and from my own experience and
| talking to others who did the same _every_ single person
| succeeded via low card high protein/fat. Would be super
| interested in meeting someone who lost weight with a high
| carb diet and how they pulled it off. It's really hard
| for a lot of psychological and hunger based reasons which
| is why basically nobody can do it
| ntonozzi wrote:
| https://nutritionfacts.org/video/flashback-friday-
| benefits-o...
| southwesterly wrote:
| I mean... it's all crap in the end, right?
|
| Aren't we just supposed to have a healthy mix of fats,
| proteins, carbs and fibre in a sensible portion size related
| to how much energy you usually expend over a given period?
| DrThunder wrote:
| It's not. It's only controversial if you follow FDA
| recommendations. Any athlete knows this. Fat and protein are
| REQUIRED to build muscle and endurance. Carbs are great
| pre/post workout for energy and recovery.
|
| Our society has a massive excess of carbs in our diets that
| don't get used for energy production and just turn into fat.
| handzhiev wrote:
| Muscle and endurance does not automatically mean a healthy
| heart and liver though.
| smolder wrote:
| That statement is much too reductive to be true. Yet it might
| still be closer to the truth than the old belief that it's
| best to avoid fats and eat loads of grains.
| r_singh wrote:
| Has anyone researched the opposite? Like the role of mood and
| happiness on the gut microbiome.
|
| I was diagnosed with Celiac 5 years ago, could never gain weight
| and had my share of struggles with anxiety etc.
|
| I recently found a counsellor who told me to stop overthinking,
| seeking knowledge and a few other things which after following I
| gained 5 kilos and became a happier person.
|
| I always thought my gut was to blame but a few simple practices
| seem to be fixing my gut too.
| DrThunder wrote:
| It does seem like I've read a couple studies that suggest it's
| not one or the other. Diet can influence the microbiome/mood
| and mood can influence the microbiome. Reducing my anxiety has
| definitely helped my ibs/mild crohn's.
| electric_mayhem wrote:
| Can you clarify on "seeking knowledge"? Is this something you
| were supposed to stop along with overthinking, or things you
| were supposed to learn that would help- if the latter, what
| were those bits of knowledge?
|
| And elaborate, specifically, on "a few other things"?
| [deleted]
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| The connection is bidirectional, yes.
|
| Mental health issues have been associated with changes in
| appetite. It's a simpler relation, though, and is more a
| function of hormones and nervous system activity than
| microbiome.
| runlaszlorun wrote:
| I'm not an expert at all but believe there's good evidence for
| a large stress/unhappiness -> cortisol -> significant metabolic
| changes linkage.
| Llamamoe wrote:
| > [...] told me to stop overthinking, seeking knowledge and a
| few other [...]
|
| That's something people are always telling you, might as well
| have been chance that things improved and you've linked it with
| life events, as humans do- we're a storytelling species, we
| always seek to explain things in our lives through the prism of
| our decisions and thoughts.
| mrleinad wrote:
| Stress is the cause for many illnesses, yes.
| hirvi74 wrote:
| For the 30 years I have walked this Earth, I have never been
| able to find a "healthy" way to manage stress.
|
| In fact, I have had such bad problems with stress that it
| basically assisted in the emergence and continuation of an
| autoimmune disorder. So, I am quite aware of the damage
| stress can cause.
|
| I have used plenty of unhealthy methods of managing stress,
| but the sad fact of the matter is that -- unlike yoga, warm
| baths, etc. -- the unhealthy methods actually work, and they
| tend to work _really_ well.
| hydrok9 wrote:
| where does your stress primarily come from?
| hirvi74 wrote:
| Not trying to create a pity-party or be all woeful, but
| to answer your question:
|
| My source of stress is highly contextual, but
| fundamentally the common denominator would be a sense of
| insecurity.
|
| I feel a sense of financial stress due to not being
| financially secure. I have taken proper measures to
| ensure I am on the proper path to financial security, but
| it seems like one job loss, one major medical emergency,
| major market crash, etc., is all it takes to wipe it all
| out. Not to mention all the rising costs of everything
| too.
|
| I have occupational stresses (software engineer) due to
| my incompetence, lack of useful/meaningful skills, poor
| knowledge of fundamentals (my comp sci program was so
| poor that we almost lost our accreditation), etc.. I've
| basically been a junior developer for the last 7 years.
|
| Couple all that with my various issues, and yeah, I live
| in a perpetual state of stress and anxiety which creates
| a not so wonderful negative-feedback loop.
|
| I've tried therapy, psychiatry, etc., but any solution is
| like trying to put out a forest fire with a garden hose.
| So, when nothing else works, all I have left is escapism.
| Luckily, I do not have an issue with any hard substances.
|
| However, one of my biggest crutches and forms of escapism
| are video games. The sad reality of why they are so
| appealing to me is that these games create a world that
| is more appealing than the current one I live. In the
| real world, I have no meaningful accomplishments, nothing
| to be proud of, etc.. In games, goals and objectives are
| clearly laid out, easily obtainable, and if I fail to
| achieve something I know that I am the sole reason -- not
| some variable out of my control (no office politics or
| BS).
|
| I have a chance to not be below-average for once, and
| when I manage to accomplish something, it creates a sense
| of fulfillment and accomplishment that I cannot find in
| the "real world." When playing competitive games, my
| contributions _actually matter_ , and if I do well, my
| teammates express a genuine sense of appreciation and
| gratitude. They relied on me, and I pulled my
| weight/extra-weight. It sometimes feels so good.
|
| I know it is all just a false sense of well-being, for
| any sense of accomplishment I feel is quickly fleeting.
| At the end of the day, when I turn the games off, what am
| I left with? I didn't really accomplish anything tangible
| -- no real skills -- and in the real world, none of it
| matters one bit.
|
| It seems that I have managed to lose the ability to put
| forth any effort in bettering myself, and I am just in
| some kind of going with motions and distracting myself
| anyway I can.
|
| So yeah, sorry for my long ramblings, but it felt good to
| get it out.
| DrThunder wrote:
| Does this mean the all knowing FDA is wrong? They told me Frosted
| mini-wheats, Lucky Charms, cheerios are better than ground beef,
| cheddar, eggs, and butter.
| jononomo wrote:
| "We found strong correlations between greater consumption of fat
| and protein to lower anxiety and depression while consuming
| higher percentages of carbohydrates was associated with increased
| stress, anxiety, and depression."
| sofaygo wrote:
| Anecdotally, I agree with the conclusions the researchers
| propose. From an academic perspective, this study is poorly done,
| with an abstract that fails to fully encapsulate their findings.
|
| While this is a topic that is very important and deserves the
| attention,people shouldn't be mislead into taking this paper at
| face value.
| mrinterweb wrote:
| > For this pilot study, we enrolled 20 adults to follow this
| protocol
|
| Is that even a large enough of a sample size to draw a conclusion
| from? Probably a big enough sample size to get funding for a
| larger study, but not big enough to draw general conclusions
| from.
| robwwilliams wrote:
| No, not at all.
| jononomo wrote:
| Dr. Georgia Ede, a Harvard psychiatrist, has found that
| eliminating plants entirely from your diet leads to phenomenal
| mental health outcomes. Her findings jive well with the results
| reported in this paper. Her website is
| https://www.diagnosisdiet.com/
| pazimzadeh wrote:
| I don't see how that jives with the paper, given that at
| follow-up, almost half of the people were on a vegetarian diet.
|
| It looks like she only has one paper on PubMed, where she is
| listed as "Independent Researcher." The paper makes no mentions
| of plants:
|
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35873236/.
|
| She does mention the SMILES trial, but that states the
| opposite:
|
| https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s1291...
| the available evidence from observational studies suggests that
| diets higher in plant foods, such as vegetables, fruits,
| legumes and whole grains, and lean proteins, including fish,
| are associated with a reduced risk for depression
|
| and ModiMedDiet diet: The primary
| focus was on increasing diet quality by supporting the
| consumption of the following 12 key food groups (recommended
| servings in brackets): whole grains (5-8 servings per day);
| vegetables (6 per day); fruit (3 per day), legumes (3-4 per
| week); low-fat and unsweetened dairy foods (2-3 per day); raw
| and unsalted nuts (1 per day); fish (at least 2 per week); lean
| red meats (3-4 per week) [32], chicken (2-3 per week); eggs (up
| to 6 per week); and olive oil (3 tablespoons per day), whilst
| reducing intake of 'extras' foods, such as sweets, refined
| cereals, fried food, fast-food, processed meats and sugary
| drinks (no more than 3 per week). Red or white wine consumption
| beyond 2 standard drinks per day and all other alcohol (e.g.
| spirits, beer) were included within the 'extras' food group.
| Individuals were advised to select red wine preferably and only
| drink with meals. The dietary composition of the ModiMedDiet
| was as follows: protein 18% of total energy (E); fat 40% of E;
| carbohydrates 37% of E; alcohol 2% of E; fibre/other 3% of E.
|
| Note that we don't directly get energy from most fibers, so 3%
| energy does not mean 3% of the volume of food.
|
| Getting rid of plant/fiber from your diet is probably a
| terrible idea, unless you have a specific reason to do so.
| That's because if you don't give your microbiota something to
| eat, then it will eat you (starting with your mucus).
|
| A dietary fiber-deprived gut microbiota degrades the colonic
| mucus barrier and enhances pathogen susceptibility
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5131798/
|
| Bifidobacteria or Fiber Protects against Diet-Induced
| Microbiota-Mediated Colonic Mucus Deterioration
|
| https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S193131281...
|
| In people who have trouble digesting plants, they may have
| already lost the part of their microbiota which would digest
| the plants. So when re-introducing plants into your diet, you
| should do it gradually so that it doesn't overload your biota.
| thisisbrians wrote:
| You are getting downvoted because conventional wisdom is wrong.
| No one needs to eat plants (although many are nutritious). You
| can be very healthy eating eggs, fish, shellfish, meat, organ
| meats, and broth. Animals are made of the same things that we
| are, so they are very nutritious.
| d23 wrote:
| > We found strong correlations between greater consumption of fat
| and protein to lower anxiety and depression
|
| > We have shown that changing diet affects mood and happiness,
| that greater fat and carbohydrate intake is directly associated
| with anxiety and depression
|
| What?
| orzig wrote:
| Look at the plots, there is one huge outlier in the small number
| of overall samples which is driving a lot of the results. I don't
| even disagree with the conclusions, but this is not strong
| evidence for it.
| xapata wrote:
| N = 20.
|
| Sounds like p-hacking to me.
| tulio_ribeiro wrote:
| I've read some studies that suggest that the gut microbiome can
| influence mood and behavior through the vagus nerve, which
| connects the gut and the brain. For example, this[1] study showed
| that mice fed with a probiotic bacteria had lower depressive and
| anxious behaviors than mice whose vagus nerve was cut. Another
| study[2] showed that oral treatment with antidepressants altered
| the gut microbiome and increased vagal activity in rats, and that
| blocking the vagus nerve abolished the antidepressive effects.
| These studies imply that the gut-brain axis is more complex than
| just diet and microbiome diversity. Maybe there are other factors
| that mediate the effects of fat, protein and carbohydrates on
| mood and mental health. What do you think?
|
| [1] https://medium.com/microbial-instincts/how-gut-microbes-
| talk...
|
| [2] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-50807-8
| volleygman180 wrote:
| I'm glad to see more studies on this, as it's long been
| misunderstood how strong of a connection there is between the gut
| microbiome and mental health. Some go as far to referring to the
| gut as our second-brain, due to its critical role.
|
| Serotonin (the moood-regulating neurotransmitter), for instance,
| is produced _primarily_ in the gut (up to 95% of it).
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6469458/#:~:tex....
| southwesterly wrote:
| That's really interesting and helps explain all sorts of things
| in my life. Thanks for the link.
| runlaszlorun wrote:
| That serotonin study was an eye opener for me. As a non-
| professional it sure seems like we have only half a clue how
| the body works.
| robwwilliams wrote:
| But unfortunately a great deal if hype. And junk science like
| this work.
| robwwilliams wrote:
| Interesting general topic but this is a tiny short term
| unreviewed study that is getting way more attention than
| deserved. Twenty subjects over a few week is not a serious
| effort.
| charlysisto wrote:
| I don't know much about the gut microbiome, but it is pretty well
| established now that the ketones produced by fasting (or diet
| mimicking it like keto) have a powerful effect on the brain : as
| an alternative to glucose for fuelling neurone, and a signaling
| molecule to mitochondria for mitophagy (the cleaning up of the
| damaged ones) and mitogenesis. These processes can reactivate and
| repair group of neurones compromised by oxydative stress or
| insuline resistance and thus heal the mind.
|
| See Chris Palmer book : "Brain Energy" or Bikman's : "What makes
| Us Sick" or Gundry the "Keto Code"... All saying the same thing
| although with different perspectives. Yes the Brain is just
| another organ and we're starting to discover ways to trigger self
| healing processes which can leverage and/or take over the common
| chemical oriented cures mimicking neurotransmitters...
|
| It started 100 years ago at the Mayo clinic were they cured
| epileptic children with strict keto diet. Quit fascinating !
| SamoyedFurFluff wrote:
| Since this study only explored a 2 week change, does anyone have
| any info on more permanent changes? I'm uninterested in
| temporarily having less anxiety for 2 weeks. I would like to know
| what's my anxiety after 2 years!
| blastro wrote:
| I sleep much better after eating basic food that my microbiome
| seems to enjoy: white rice.
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| heavy metals in rice
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7663342/
|
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34073642/
| blastro wrote:
| thanks for that, I buy organic white rice from california
| which appears to be the least bad origin in those papers
| pazimzadeh wrote:
| White rice lacks Vitamin B
|
| https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/eating-way-too-much-r...
| aszantu wrote:
| that's literally me... I've observed that it takes about 4 days
| between carb consumption and mental breakdown. Also before the
| mental breakdown appears, the smell changes from nice to sour.
| The sour smell seems to be connected to high stress, it's really
| hard to remove from clothes.
| coding123 wrote:
| My wife has to eat protein (in her case meat) with carbs. If she
| eats carbs with no protein she has anxiety. It's so awesome that
| we are finally studying things like this.
| DrThunder wrote:
| I'm the same. I assume it's spiking my glucose levels too much
| when I don't include protein. She may have a bit of reactive
| hypoglycemia going on. Wonky sugar spikes can really mess with
| people mentally.
| jononomo wrote:
| I have eliminated all plants from my diet, and it is
| indescribable how positively it affects your mental and
| physical health. It is like accessing an entirely new dimension
| of well-being. You can't even imagine how good it is possible
| to feel until you've ditched all plant-based calories.
| hirvi74 wrote:
| How affordable are such changes for the average person? It
| seems like a carnivorous diet would be significantly more
| expensive than alternatives.
| DoreenMichele wrote:
| Some outtakes:
|
| _Bacteroides is predominant in people eating large amounts of
| protein (e.g. Western diet)
|
| Human studies have shown an increase in gut bacterial
| translocation in mood disorders.6,7 For example, in major
| depressive disorder there are significant increases in
| Bacteroidetes, Proteobacteria, and Actinobacteria and decreases
| in Firmicutes compared to controls.
|
| The benefits of ketogenic diets for controlling severe epilepsy
| may be mediated by the gut microbiome, as the effects can be
| reproduced in animal models by direct manipulation of gut
| bacterial enterotypes without changing diet._
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