[HN Gopher] Apple and Foxconn win permission for 12-hour shifts ...
___________________________________________________________________
Apple and Foxconn win permission for 12-hour shifts for women in
India
Author : thunderbong
Score : 193 points
Date : 2023-03-10 16:27 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (gadgettendency.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (gadgettendency.com)
| dwighttk wrote:
| 12-hour shifts
|
| and also
|
| nightshifts for women
| jedberg wrote:
| So from what I can tell, it sounds like this is a win for women
| in India. They were restricted from working as long as men (and
| still are?) so they couldn't make as much money as men.
|
| I mostly post this because my initial reaction was "oh they made
| it easier to abuse them!" but it sounds like that's not actually
| the case, which is a bit of a relief.
| advisedwang wrote:
| Or maybe the men are already being abused? Perhaps if there
| were working hour rules for everyone, wages would have to come
| up?
|
| The US has working hour regulations, but I don't hear the
| workers complain that they are being stifled from working as
| much as the want.
| [deleted]
| dcow wrote:
| What's inherently abusive about a 12 hour work day?
|
| And you don't here complaints in the US because the US does
| not limit the amount of hours you can work in a day. It just
| says that companies must provide an unpaid break for more
| than 5 consecutive hours of work.
| glenstein wrote:
| The most obvious problem is that you make workers compete
| against each other in a race to the bottom, with fewer and
| fewer protections, and employers select among the workers
| for those most willing to endure the most demanding
| hardship.
| dcow wrote:
| So because some people don't want to work more than 8
| hours a day we must prevent everybody from working more
| than 8 hours a day because it will inevitably spiral into
| a race to the bottom? That's rhetorically pretty loose.
| Do we have that problem in the US? No. I don't believe
| this race to the bottom actually exists. Companies need
| all sorts of labor. Diversity of labor is good.
| mrguyorama wrote:
| >No. I don't believe this race to the bottom actually
| exists.
|
| There are literally companies using child labor in the US
| RIGHT NOW, and a huge argument against increasing minimum
| wage is that "they are jobs for teens and teens don't
| need that much money" so desperate (or privileged enough
| in their position to not need to demand more) people are
| depressing wages in the US currently.
| YeahNO wrote:
| You are 100% spot on. States are weakening worker and
| child protection laws around the country. Destroying
| oversight of child protection: no need to check that kids
| are at least 16 before they are hired in Arkansas. Ohio
| Reps want to let 14 year olds work year round until 9pm
| each day. Iowa wants to let 14 year olds work in
| meatpacking plants AND indemnify companies from liability
| if the child is injured or killed at work, isn't that
| just grand?
|
| Minnesota trails with a bill to let 16 year olds work on
| construction sites. Do I hear 14? 13? How much for 12?
| Why any age at all? If a baby can swing a hammer, then
| what right does the man in Washington have to stop him?
| Is that baby not entitled to the sweat of his brow? I say
| YES! And if that baby should fall off a ladder dragging a
| square of tiles behind him, should the company not be
| protected from liability for it was that baby's own
| fault? I say YES, most emphatically! /s
| blendergeek wrote:
| > And you don't here complaints in the US because the US
| does not limit the amount of hours you can work in a day.
|
| The media may not amplify the complaints but the complaints
| are very real.
|
| > It just says that companies must provide an unpaid break
| for more than 5 consecutive hours of work.
|
| US law does not say that.
| dcow wrote:
| What does it say?
| AstixAndBelix wrote:
| Having a life with responsibilities to attend to?
| dcow wrote:
| Then don't work 12 hours a day. Simple.
| AstixAndBelix wrote:
| Just starve to death together with your children. Simple.
| dcow wrote:
| What hyperbolic nonsense!
|
| For your comment to even begin to be taken seriously the
| majority of employers in India would have to de-facto
| require 12 hour work days. That's just not even remotely
| close to being true.
| akaike wrote:
| If you want to dedicate your life completely to work, go
| ahead, but others maybe just want to work normal 9-5 jobs
| and have some free time for other activities
| dcow wrote:
| That's exactly how it is. Nobody requires you to have 12
| hour availability. It's just allowed now for women like
| it has been for men.
| TaylorAlexander wrote:
| I'm no expert on this but there's a long history in the
| fight for an 8 hour work day. Many people (myself included)
| think we should move to even shorter workdays, or shorter
| work weeks.
|
| I like the slogan they had: "8 hours for sleep, 8 hours for
| work, 8 hours for what we will"
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-hour_day
| dcow wrote:
| Nobody is forcing anybody to work 12 hours a day?
| TaylorAlexander wrote:
| > Nobody is forcing anybody to work 12 hours a day?
|
| Do you have a source for this claim? Normally when I hear
| about workers at factories like this, they are treated
| like shit in all kinds of ways, given few other options,
| physically abused, and strongly coerced in to the longest
| shifts legally possible, or longer.
|
| See this documentary about global garment workers.
| Hopefully Foxconn is better, but we can't just assume
| people are not being abused.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxFwA-jw3X4
| dcow wrote:
| I didn't say don't take abuse seriously. I questioned
| whether _allowing_ a 12 hour workday implies abuse.
| skottk wrote:
| Many employers effectively force exempt employees to work
| 12 hour days.
| dcow wrote:
| Then don't take a salary. Nobody is forcing you to work
| for a nice salary. If you want to be paid by the hour so
| that every hour is accounted for then go for it.
| ddren wrote:
| Of course, in practice that is not a possibility for most
| people. You can't just choose to work hourly if nobody is
| willing to hire you on these terms. Without regulation
| the balance of power is strongly in the hands of capital
| and inevitably leads to employers working employees to
| death. We have plenty of examples of this in our past.
| dcow wrote:
| You can go work at McDonalds right now for $20/hr where I
| live. You can structure your work as a consultant and
| bill hourly. No you can't walk into a company that is
| looking for a salaried employee and tell them you're
| going to work hourly (I mean you can try, it might work).
| But you have plenty of options and there's plenty of work
| out there.
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| I don't think they were complaining about being paid per
| hour or not, just the expectation in many salaried jobs
| you work arbitrarily long hours in a competition with the
| nerd next to you for how much you can sacrifice for your
| employer.
|
| I later in my career learned you can actually invert it
| by just being really effective in a shorter number of
| hours and work 6 hours a day and just leave the nerd next
| to you to expire from burnout. But it helps being later
| in my career and knowing how to be more effective in a
| shorter time.
| ROTMetro wrote:
| Dcow says this in a discussion about a company that has
| to put suicide nets in their factories to prevent their
| workers from killing themselves.
| dcow wrote:
| this was in china and not a thing anymore
| ykonstant wrote:
| Oh, all right then!
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| Except most tech and quant jobs I've had where 80 hour
| work weeks are expected, but not required. It's really
| only required if you want to keep your job.
| dcow wrote:
| There's stories and there's reality. I've seen 60 hour
| weeks occasionally but not 80 and not de-facto required.
| Most places have decent managers that understand
| work/life balance. Find one that does.
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| My story comes from my life experiences starting at SGI,
| Netscape, Wall Street, etc over 30 years. What you deem
| reality i extrapolate from my reality as a recent
| emergent reality based on broad social trends that may or
| may not stick. I think the work life balance stuff is
| _really_ recent and coincides with employers trying to
| convince people they're not really evil and part of the
| recent wave of liberal humanism in western societies.
| It's a great trend. But it's neither concrete reality nor
| proven to be permanent.
| ribosometronome wrote:
| Are there not working rule limitations for everyone? It
| sounds like this will effectively limit them to a 4 day work
| week if they're working 12 hour shifts, barring overtime.
|
| >The state of Karnataka passed an amendment to the laws
| allowing 12-hour shifts and night shifts for women. Women
| dominate electronics production lines in parts of Asia, but
| are underrepresented in the Indian workforce. The legislation
| limits the maximum workweek to 48 hours, but also increases
| the number of overtime allowed to 145 over a three-month
| period from the previous 75 hours.
| tpmx wrote:
| I think the main takeaway is that India (well, in the state of
| Karnataka, population 64M) now allows 60 hour work weeks for
| non-salaried people of both genders. Not as an exception, but
| as an average.
|
| And that Apple was behind this. It's pretty hard to view this
| as a positive change.
| ROTMetro wrote:
| Ding ding ding! Crazy people don't get this and defend this
| as totally normal ignoring this company has actual suicide
| prevention nets to prevent their employees from killing
| themselves because the companies employment practices at that
| friggen aweful!
| tpmx wrote:
| I have no idea what those things have to do with what I
| just wrote but I love your enthusiasm.
| geodel wrote:
| Well, Apple/Foxconn gonna do Apple/Foxconn. But India really
| needs to look at growing unemployment problem for its massive
| population. Working hours need to be set like 30-40h a week. It
| helps nation (not necessarily companies) in two ways:
|
| 1) Employees to not get overworked as a rule. 2) Companies can
| hire more employees and run more shifts if they need 24/7 work.
|
| Right now there are huge number of young people sitting at home
| for years unable to find any employment and other few are being
| overworked.
| dirtyid wrote:
| If Foxconn is going to follow the campus model, which is likely
| because Apple manufacturing cities draws labour from across
| country, that means building infra to house 2x-3x more workers,
| especially during surge production for new launches. Reality is
| it's a low margin business and Taiwanese companies have decades
| learning to squeeze blood from stone, hence their reputation of
| being slave drivers across Asia for a reason. Of course your
| system is good for India, but these companies are only in India
| because it's good for them.
| geodel wrote:
| Agree on all points. I feel in larger picture it is not just
| that China is geopolitical risk out of nowhere. The
| demographics of China is changing and they themselves do not
| want _12 hour slave labor_ type of jobs as much as they would
| in last few decades.
|
| With India's still growing population and unimaginative
| political class the only model to follow is Chinese model of
| past. And these Foxconn factories are example of that.
| [deleted]
| zamadatix wrote:
| If I'm following the numbers correctly it seems to functionally
| come out at max of ~60h/week where ~12 of that would be at an
| overtime rate. Not sure what that compares to before but it
| sounds like an increase in both base and overtime limits.
| Interesting the night shift wasn't allowed for women before.
| glogla wrote:
| Previous was max shift of 9 hours and max overtime of 75 hours
| per three months. Now it is 12 hour shifts with 145 hours of
| overtime per three months.
|
| So yeah, this comes at 5x12 shifts.
| e12e wrote:
| A point of comparison - in Norway employers need special
| dispensation to have workers work more than 100 hours
| overtime _per year_ (with max 40 regular hours /week and five
| weeks paid vacation time).
| renewiltord wrote:
| True, but Norway is an oil nation.
| qwytw wrote:
| Denmark, Sweden and a bunch other countries in Europe
| that have similar rules (probably lower pay though...)
| are not.
| jacooper wrote:
| I mean worker rights in Scandinavian countries are rather
| the exception.
| heywhatupboys wrote:
| Scandinavia, especially Denmark, are known for having
| _few_ labor laws. That 's the point of the Danish model:
| few workers' rights
| vamega wrote:
| > The legislation limits the maximum workweek to 48 hours,
| but also increases the number of overtime allowed to 145 over
| a three-month period from the previous 75 hours.
|
| A 5x12 shift would require 1/5 of the time to be classified
| as overtime. Indian labour laws seem to state that overtime
| must be paid at 2x regular wages.
|
| Almost seems like it would make sense to hire more people and
| have them work 4x12?
| sct202 wrote:
| It depends on the benefits, taxes, training they pay for
| the incremental employees if it's worth it to plan for
| overtime or hire more people. Foxconn is a massive
| operation making a tiny profit margin thru contract
| manufacturing so if they're doing it this way, it probably
| makes sense for them.
| supriyo-biswas wrote:
| https://archive.ph/FOBB2, since the original link doesn't render
| the text for me for some odd reason.
| bell-cot wrote:
| Gut Reaction: In what ways is this different from woman nurses in
| American hospitals regularly working 12-hour (or longer) shifts?
| klodolph wrote:
| We (the US) are in the top 10 when it comes to hours worked /
| overworked. Nurses are probably within the top 10 overworked
| professions within the US. High rates of burnout and stress.
| stametseater wrote:
| [dead]
| binarymax wrote:
| Well, there's no shift manager walking the hallways in
| hospitals with clubs threatening you to work faster or suffer
| punishment. And the nurses can quit without fear of violence or
| imprisonment.
| bell-cot wrote:
| Gut Reaction - How short of shifts would make those things
| okay? 10 hour? 8 hour? 6 hour?
| [deleted]
| binarymax wrote:
| You know that I never said those things were OK. So maybe
| think for a moment before posting gut reactions.
| bell-cot wrote:
| My point is that the horrible sorts of working conditions
| which you mention are orthogonal to the shift length.
| EDIT: So if they are doing the things you mention (or
| exposing workers to asbestos, or paying starvation wages,
| or whatever), then that would be the real problem, which
| needs to be treated as such.
| peoplearepeople wrote:
| Yes it's just as bad. Long shifts are hard on the mind and body
| regardless of profession
| Minor49er wrote:
| The username fits the sentiment
| slg wrote:
| Hospitals are a little different in that society has more of an
| incentive for longer shifts since shift changes end up killing
| people as the knowledge transfer isn't perfect from one shift
| to the next. That incentive makes it reasonable to treat
| healthcare workers a little differently from a legal
| perspective when compared with jobs with less societal benefit
| like making iPhones.
| thescriptkiddie wrote:
| The shift change problem can be eliminated by having shifts
| overlap, hospitals just don't want to hire more staff to make
| that happen.
| slg wrote:
| An overlap improves things slightly, but it isn't a magic
| solution. If it was that easy to transfer knowledge during
| an overlap, then they could also document that knowledge
| for the next shift without any overlap. And if your
| suggestion really just amounts to _hiring more staff
| improves patient outcomes_ , I don't think anyone would
| disagree with you.
| QuercusMax wrote:
| Exactly; this idea that we HAVE to overwork our medical
| professionals is just outdated, and especially since COVID,
| actively detrimental to our healthcare systems.
|
| Hire more people, pay them more, and give them time off so
| they don't burn out or get sick themselves.
| jaywalk wrote:
| > Hire more people
|
| Sure. Where are all of these medical professionals who
| are looking for work?
| thescriptkiddie wrote:
| Fun fact, the American Medical Association artificially
| limits the number of doctors that can go through
| residency programs each year. The limit is actually lower
| than the number of medical school graduates, forcing some
| small number of new doctors to leave the country because
| they aren't allowed to become licensed.
| RACEWAR wrote:
| [dead]
| QuercusMax wrote:
| We _should_ be aggressively recruiting and training folks
| to go into the medical professions, and paying for their
| training so you don 't have to go into huge debt to
| become a doctor.
| lm28469 wrote:
| Nurses take care of people
|
| But yeah we also have 12 hours shift in the west in some
| industries, I don't feel like it's a goal to strive for though
| tpmx wrote:
| Do they work 12 hours every day (mon-fri), every week?
| AlexandrB wrote:
| Perhaps it's not worse, but why do we reflexively set the bar
| at the worst working conditions we can think of?
| Mountain_Skies wrote:
| My mother did twelve-hour shifts as a nurse because that was
| her preference. There were plenty of opportunities for more
| traditional shifts but because most nursing jobs with twelve-
| hour shifts are working seven days straight and then have
| seven days off, she liked it better having those long
| stretches of uninterrupted days off when she could pursue her
| personal interests. My siblings and I adapted pretty quickly
| and learned to hold anything that wasn't an emergency or
| needed immediate attention until her days off.
| bell-cot wrote:
| If tens (or hundreds?) of thousands of rather well-paid
| American professionals are also working in the conditions
| mentioned (12-hour shifts), then I assume that the headline
| is "anything that says 'Apple'" clickbait.
|
| Or a symptom of sheltered & pampered western office workers -
| who at times seem to view normal, physical work as a human
| rights violation.
| incone123 wrote:
| I used to do 12 hour shifts in EMS, where men and women are
| on the same shift system, so no issue with the hours. But
| factory work (which I've also done, 8 hour shifts) is
| constantly intense across the whole shift and I wouldn't
| want to do it for 12 hours.
| supriyo-biswas wrote:
| Not trying to justify the 12 hour shift, but I imagine
| work at an electronics factory would be less stressful
| than your typical factory job.
| incone123 wrote:
| All production line work is intense. You're going to be
| doing the same small task, to quota, the whole shift.
| jmann99999 wrote:
| I have very little understanding of India. While reading the
| article, it sounds like the changes to Indian labor law would
| enable more hours to be worked. However, I don't understand
| whether this is a good or bad thing for the average worker
| (and/or woman) in India.
|
| Can someone provide more insight? Thanks.
| 2Gkashmiri wrote:
| outside of factories, indian
| offices/businesses/shops/schools/hospitals no one uses hourly
| wages. Its just "you work for us 6 days a week, 9/(now 12)
| hours a day and you get x amount, are you okay with that or we
| have 120 people outside willing to do this work, quick.
|
| The part of the reason is the population is so much and there
| are so little positions so people are forced to take up
| whatever is infront of them.
|
| Personally, i run a small office with a dozen odd employees.
| For the female staff, our timings are 10-5 x 6 days a week. I
| personally work 10-9x6+sunday regularly so yeah. The situation
| is not 'that' terrible with regards to women workforce. If you
| can do the work and not be bogged down by too much 'home work'
| you can work as long as you like because people are willing to
| give out work.
|
| I don't own a big factory or a 1000 person business so i can't
| say about those things but in big cities like mumbai/delhi, you
| normally have women AND men working 2 jobs just to make ends
| meet.
|
| You can work 10-4 if you like, there are jobs like that but
| your pay will get decreased accordingly (without overt hourly
| calculation)(like we dont have concept of billable hours for
| example)
| Proven wrote:
| [dead]
| vishnugupta wrote:
| I don't know the finer details, but if they are proportionately
| paid more this is definitely a big step in the right direction
| for women workers.
|
| In general, women participation in workforce is outright
| abysmal in India. Hopefully this will be on of the many small
| steps towards addressing that.
| jdthedisciple wrote:
| Can you elaborate what precisely is the issue with low female
| participation in a country's workforce?
| AlecSchueler wrote:
| It makes it harder for women who want to participate to
| participate. Simple as that.
|
| Women aren't commodities whose freedoms should be limited
| relative to men because of what it might do to
| "demographics and families."
|
| Women aren't slaves to be tied to home. They have agency
| and should be awarded the same legal freedoms as men.
| lostlogin wrote:
| It's not that simple though. Being a house slave is bad,
| being a factory slave is too and that's what others here
| are saying this is.
|
| Perhaps this isn't actual progress?
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| It is progress relative to current position, where men
| have the advantage. It would be better if regulation was
| equalized for both in the other direction, but that did
| not happen.
| asdajksah2123 wrote:
| The fact that half your workforce doesn't have an
| opportunity to contribute to the country's growth?
|
| I mean, cut the US or Europe's output by 25-30% (to match
| India's low female participation) and you're basically
| talking about eliminating decades of growth. People would
| be so much poorer and worse off.
|
| And that's just at the national level. There are a whole
| lot of other issues at the individual level, and the fact
| that it indicates a lack of freedom and opportunity for
| nearly half the country's population.
| Red_Leaves_Flyy wrote:
| You do realize that prior to women entering the workforce
| a man, and his partner and three kids, working a full
| time factory job could lead a better lifestyle than two
| l5 engineers in CA can today, right?
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| You do realize that women did not have as much freedom
| under that arrangement?
|
| Also, the demand for living in California drastically
| increased relative to supply of housing, but that is a
| different point.
| qwytw wrote:
| Forgot the /s..
| stcroixx wrote:
| So they're at home contributing to their families growth
| instead of their countries numbers - sounds like they are
| doing it right.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| Are you claiming that you in the state should be the ones
| deciding where women place should be, not the women in
| question?
| jdthedisciple wrote:
| Is a nations prosperity only related to its nominal
| growth and GDP?
|
| Then why don't we send more children to work as well to
| increase "growth" a bit further?
|
| Are there no tradeoffs involved? Like what it does to a
| country's demographics and families?
|
| Are there other ways to increase GDP without forcing
| women into the workforce - with potentially better
| tradeoffs?
| geodel wrote:
| You are surely making great points. Some people obsessed
| with mindless economic growth don't think there is
| anything beyond it. With full support of media,
| intelligentsia and _economists_ there is this myth
| created where anyone not doing a paid job for external
| entity is an inferior person or oppressed person.
|
| I have read endless stories in Indian newspapers where a
| person hauling their four member family on an
| underpowered scooter to a McDonalds meal is a _aspiring
| middle class_. On the other hand if a family is having a
| hot meal at home on weekend it is obviously because women
| of house is oppressed to stay at home and cook.
| yamtaddle wrote:
| Especially when a bunch of that extra income just goes to
| childcare and services to make up for having less time to
| manage the house. And then much of the rest is eaten in
| competition for housing, with prices increased by all the
| extra money from those second incomes.
|
| I'm skeptical that we'd be much worse off, in actual
| experienced fact, if the norm were single-income
| households. I wouldn't be surprised if measures of
| contentment or happiness actually increased, overall.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Any ideas on how to ensure women retain financial
| independence?
| yamtaddle wrote:
| Not at a policy level, really. Women could prefer stay-
| at-home spouses, to protect their own financial
| independence, though, even in a world so extremely into
| single-income households that such arrangements were
| somehow legally mandated (which isn't workable and
| probably isn't desirable anyway, but, even in that
| extreme, there'd be options, provided regulations
| weren't, themselves, sexist).
|
| It's all hypothetical, anyway. We're not going back to
| that. Outside chance a few other countries do (some are
| still much farther that direction than we are) but the US
| never will, barring tyrannical theocracy or something
| like that. I do think we're buying rather less happiness
| than one might hope, for all this extra paid labor, but I
| also doubt that's a solvable problem, realistically.
| nextaccountic wrote:
| > if they are proportionately paid more
|
| Apple and Foxconn wants to pay them less (in particular, pay
| less overtime)
| potamic wrote:
| It's terrible for the workers, because currently they get
| overtime pay beyond 9 hours, this law effectively reduces
| overtime by 3 hours. Women also play a bigger role in running
| the household, and with 12-hour shifts plus commute time, this
| must take a big toll on the family.
| [deleted]
| onlyrealcuzzo wrote:
| These are - relatively - good jobs, right?
| hgsgm wrote:
| They would be better if each person worked fewer hours so
| more people could have jobs and demand higher pay.
| alephnerd wrote:
| Not particularly.
|
| You're earning around $2.5k a year (1.8 lpa) which isn't
| the most competitive even in most of India tbh, especially
| when factoring CoL in Karnataka. If this was Andhra
| Pradesh, Rajasthan, or Harit Pradesh/Western UP (regions of
| India with the right mix of supply chain and cheap labor),
| it might fly with migrants from Bihar, Purvanchal, and the
| Tribal Belt, but definetly not in KN.
|
| You can easily earn that much in farming, or via
| alternative unskilled labor with better work hours (eg.
| street food stalls, MGNREGA, etc).
| ivan_gammel wrote:
| I don't think these jobs are making them rich. No need to
| relativize a socially backward policy.
| geodel wrote:
| Well family is the last thing on mind for Economic planners
| and political class. They have this cartoonish belief that
| they can beat China by having worse labor laws on workers'
| welfare.
| eevilspock wrote:
| All the comments hinge on whether it is fundamentally wrong or
| abusive for people to have to work 12-hour shifts or
| significantly more than the current American 40-hour per week
| standard.
|
| It's not the absolute amount of work people have to do to survive
| that is fundamentally wrong. If everyone commenting here got ship
| wrecked on a desert island together and we worked 100 hour weeks
| and had children work too _in order to survive_ , it is obviously
| not fundamentally wrong.
|
| What's fundamentally wrong is that we effectively have a world-
| wide caste system. People in the upper castes live in better
| environments with better laws, consume a far greater share of the
| planet's resources per-capita, don't have to work as much, get
| paid more and _own_ more of the planet per-capita, and on top of
| all that they leverage an economic system that is able to provide
| them with even more wealth (super computers in their pockets,
| hand-picked strawberries) and the freedom to work less and play
| more (hire nannies, maids and janitors, have food delivered) for
| incredibly cheap by coercing a race to the bottom for those in
| the bottom castes, who have to work harder, longer and in jobs
| upper caste people would consider nightmares and would need
| expensive therapists to recover from.
|
| I hate Elon Musk and Twitter is a hellscape, but if you used it
| for one thing, it should be to follow United Farmworker's account
| for a daily reminder of what your upper caste life is built upon.
|
| https://twitter.com/UFWupdates
| soperj wrote:
| This makes sense, since in general India is known for it's lack
| of available work force, so having people being able to work more
| overtime is the most logical thing.
|
| /sarcasm
| ROTMetro wrote:
| Yes, let's take these high repetitive stress injury rate jobs
| and tack an extra four hours on. Of course the workers will do
| it, they don't have a choice. But their body's won't for long.
| But that's a sacrifice Apples willing to make for the
| convenience of less production line handoffs.
|
| As someone who has been at the bottom and had very unfavorable
| work conditions forced on me because companies could F! Apple,
| do better, be better.
| [deleted]
| gabrieledarrigo wrote:
| Fuck you Capitalism. I hate you.
| zoklet-enjoyer wrote:
| I'm working a 12 hour shift right now
| throwawaaarrgh wrote:
| Vote with your dollars, people. Don't buy Apple and Foxconn
| products if you care about the wellbeing of workers.
| hindsightbias wrote:
| I sleep so much better with my Samsung
|
| "Among the most alarming information were reports that
| miscarriage "is very normal." As one worker said, "It is very
| normal if they are young. If they are pregnant ... for the
| first trimester it is very difficult, they miscarry a lot."
|
| https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/03/14/your-cool-...
| alexhjones wrote:
| What's the next best alternative?
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| True. We wouldn't want women to be able to earn as much as men
| in India. It's important to take a principled stand against
| gender parity and punish these guys with your wallet.
| JustSomeNobody wrote:
| Hmmm there's a logical fallacy in there just waiting to be
| unearthed... I feel it...
| ROTMetro wrote:
| We don't want people crippled from abusive levels of hours
| doing a task at high risk of repetitive stress injury just so
| that Apple doesn't have to deal with shift changes. They are
| trading lifetime quality of life issues for their workers
| (who don't have much other option) for a reduction in shift
| changes. As someone whose been at the bottom and seen as
| throway sorting trash at a recycling facility and whose hands
| still often ache from that job, F! Apple!
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| Sorry, but men were already allowed to work these hours and
| shifts. It was women who weren't. The shifts still conform
| to standard work week in India (48 hours). 12 hour shifts
| are not uncommon anywhere, and they come with generally
| better pay and more contiguous time off, which can be more
| meaningful to some people than more time off in a single
| day. I feel like perhaps the clickbait headline worked and
| it may be there's not much of a story here other than women
| being granted equal footing with men in the labor market.
| widowlark wrote:
| Is your argument seriously that it's unfair that women aren't
| overworked in India
| [deleted]
| spiderice wrote:
| Wait what? Because of 12 hour shifts? Should I not use
| hospitals either? Or are you referring to other working
| conditions unrelated to 12 hour shifts?
| ROTMetro wrote:
| Is someone doing the same task 60 times a minute in the
| hospital that entire shift minus a lunch break? Do assembly
| line workers for Apple get treated the same as hospital
| workers? Not eve close! Do hospital workers have to ask
| permission to go to the bathroom? Do hospitals have suicide
| nets to prevent their workers from trying to kill themselves
| because they have lost all hope? You are talking two very
| different things.
| qwytw wrote:
| Yes cause other major manufacturers or not exactly the same or
| (more usually) worse (because the press/public pays much more
| attention to Apple than to anyone else)
| jklinger410 wrote:
| My mom works 12 hour shifts as a CNC machinist in the United
| States. Is there some point to this article or is it just neat to
| know?
| Calvin02 wrote:
| Does she work more than 40 hours / week? If so, she very likely
| gets paid 1.5x for any hours worked above 40.
|
| Do you think Apple and Foxconn are paying Indian women time and
| a half for hours above 40?
|
| That said, I'm nearly 100% certain that these women would
| rather have these jobs working in a clean facility than the
| alternative.
| cornholio wrote:
| They have 48 h weeks and the ability to add an extra 50 hours
| per month.
|
| There's a name for places with a 60 hour work week: they are
| called sweat shops.
| spicybright wrote:
| Although it's not great to need to work that much, you can
| make absolute bank doing overtime.
|
| My mom's a nurse and occasionally gets called in out of the
| blue if there's shortages. If she agrees, she can get x2 to
| sometimes even x3 depending on what time and day of the year
| it is.
|
| As much of a drag it can be getting woken up to work, she
| still gets excited when it happens because of how good the
| pay is.
| groffee wrote:
| > you can make absolute bank doing overtime.
|
| Not in a third world shit hole like India.
| steve_adams_86 wrote:
| Yes, I have a feeling the only people making decent money
| are those who are difficult to replace. Everyone else,
| well, they will readily be swapped out. They have no
| agency or power.
| [deleted]
| inasio wrote:
| A lot of hospitals (and Tesla plants) have four 12 hour days,
| then 3 days off (the next batch switches to nights though).
| Works neatly to around 40 hour weeks, but very hard to match to
| school schedules, plus switching days and nights weekly is
| tough.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Yes, most modern countries have between 35 and 40 hour work
| weeks.
| recuter wrote:
| -- sent from my iPhone
| neither_color wrote:
| I don't believe that "most modern countries" don't make
| exceptions for work that requires it or critical fields. In
| fact, those of us who've worked non-traditional shifts
| usually get some perk out of it. When I worked 12 hour shifts
| I'd work 3-5 days in a row, then get the same amount of days
| off. To this day 5 days on 5 days off is the best schedule
| I've ever had. I also had a friend working in mines up north
| in Canada. He'd work on-shift for weeks at a time and then
| get 3 weeks off with a flight paid anywhere he wants in the
| world. Is Canada not a modern country?
| ddren wrote:
| Is there anything about sitting in a line manufacturing
| electronics that requires 12 hours shifts?
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| Profit
| YeahNO wrote:
| And it isn't for the peons doing all the work...
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| Well....... The peons need to feed their kids and send
| them to school and shelter their families. So, yes,
| actually it is for them too. 12 hour shift jobs usually
| pay better and have longer contiguous time off. But, yes,
| these are all happy side effects. Profit doesn't give a
| shit, and if it could find a way to get the same for less
| it would.
| kshacker wrote:
| I never worked in a line, but have seen a lot of antiwork
| discussions, and also the discussions on commute ... I
| know 12 hour shifts are arduous, but you do 12 hour
| shifts for 4 days then on one hand you reduce 1-2 days of
| commute, and on the other hand maybe you can commute at
| better commute hours.
| jklinger410 wrote:
| India has a 48 hour work week which is unrelated to this
| article.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| Most modern "developed" countries. 48 hour standard work
| weeks are pretty standard for developing countries.
| [deleted]
| jachee wrote:
| How many of those shifts does she work in a week?
| jklinger410 wrote:
| Not sure, but I assume 40 hours total. It looks like India
| has a nationwide maximum of 48 hours before overtime. So they
| have a whole extra day's work than we do in the US.
|
| That is now for both men and women.
| asdajksah2123 wrote:
| The contract team I used to work with would work Mon-Sat.
| That then changed to Mon-Fri + alternate Sats, but over a
| decade ago they simply became Mon-Fri.
|
| So at least in tech, it seems the norm is becoming to work
| 40 hr days as well.
| Red_Leaves_Flyy wrote:
| 12 hour shifts, and night shifts for anything but emergency
| services are inhumane.
|
| https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/nov/18/us-workers-n...
| skc wrote:
| Somehow, Apple will have a moving video about their human
| centered values at their next product launch and there won't be a
| dry eye in the room.
|
| It's sickening how effective it is.
| lazyeye wrote:
| Yes these are the kinds of people in Silicon Valley that like
| to lecture everybody else on how to think and behave.
| newmanah223 wrote:
| I try not to judge these jobs by first world standards.
|
| What I don't understand is why a company can use $2 an hour labor
| and then sell a product for $1K.
|
| If I ran the US, I would put heavy tariffs on goods that
| companies try to outsource for cheap labor.
|
| This would encourage them to use technology and robotics to
| produce domestically.
| kennywinker wrote:
| It's not judging the job by "first world standards" to say that
| nobody can work 12 hours a day (6 days a week) and have a life
| outside of work.
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| the state works with capital, not against it.
| Red_Leaves_Flyy wrote:
| Tariffs would increase the cost of these outrageously
| profitable products decreasing their market reducing sales. All
| things capitalists hate. Lofty goals like safe working
| conditions will always be fought against by capitalists who, by
| design of their own, are completely disconnected from the
| reality their greed creates.
| angelgonzales wrote:
| There are no alternative economic systems without
| questionable environmental and safety records. Any production
| system will be designed to maximize outputs at the quality
| the customer requires while minimizing process inputs.
| Whatever psychological and social framework is used organize
| companies, governments and individuals, the individual
| workers will still be performing the same assembly processes
| on the factory floor.
| andrepd wrote:
| That's a nonsensical statement. Slavery, feudalism, and
| neoliberal states all attempt to produce as efficiently as
| possible, but they're obviously quite different...
| geuis wrote:
| There is no article, just a single line of text as a headline.
| diyseguy wrote:
| I once had a typing job working 3 days at 12 hours each with 4
| days off. Though by the third day it was kinda rough, it was
| still the greatest arrangement I've ever had.
| chitowneats wrote:
| I read TFA and didn't notice an answer to my question below.
|
| Do men already have this permission? If so, I don't see why women
| shouldn't.
| supriyo-biswas wrote:
| This article[1] has a bit more detail. It mentions:
|
| > The maximum work hours for workers in Karnataka industries
| will be 12 hours in a day but capped at the same 48-hour work
| week. This means workers can put in 4-day or 5-day work weeks
| while more flexibility is available for the management of daily
| production lines.
|
| > Finally, women will now be allowed to work night shifts -
| from 7pm to 6am.
|
| [1] https://www.india-briefing.com/news/karnataka-india-work-
| hou...
| chitowneats wrote:
| Thank you. This is the type of info I was expecting in TFA.
| jdthedisciple wrote:
| Shouldn't be too hard with a good reason. Ever noticed how men
| and women aren't exactly the same?
| chitowneats wrote:
| They aren't exactly the same. They are very different. I am
| far from a copypasta liberal politics idiot. A quick look at
| my comment history would have indicated this quite clearly to
| you.
|
| Please explain to me why women shouldn't be allowed to work
| 12 hour days? I eagerly await your response.
| jdthedisciple wrote:
| "Yayy women can finally be away from darned prison that we call
| home for _12_ hours a day and even at night to do some bullshit
| job to help some idiot get a little richer yasss let 's celebrate
| wohoo"
| chitowneats wrote:
| I take back my other comment. I don't eagerly await any
| responses from you. Your comments are childish.
|
| Get off HN and go enjoy your 20s. If by chance you are older
| than that, grow up.
|
| No one is forcing anyone to work 12 hour days. It's about
| allowing it should a woman choose to accept the position.
|
| I get your angle now. Trad nonsense.
| bon-98 wrote:
| Hopefully he isn't working in India on a 13 hour schedule
| lest he shall be able to enjoy his 20s. Just pay the worker a
| fair wage and they won't be pressured or expected to work
| these long shifts (which is what we all know is REALLY going
| on.) Putting pressure on The Corporation is asking too much,
| right?
| chitowneats wrote:
| Yes, corporations should pay a fair wage. This is about
| gender parity in government policy.
|
| I will entertain arguments that no one should be allowed to
| work 12 hours, or that both men and women can. If you look
| at the other comment he made, you'll see he's arguing for
| neither of those.
| mungoman2 wrote:
| I don't get this. Why push your work force like this? It's
| clearly very bad for the workers. And also for the factory,
| surely having 3 shifts is more efficient because your workers are
| not as fatigued so will work faster with fewer mistakes?
| hoherd wrote:
| For 24x7 production operations, 12 hour shifts make a lot of
| sense. You work 12 hours, hand off your role to the next
| incoming shift, and 12 hours later they hand off back to you.
| You do this for 3 days one week, 4 days the next. 4 hours of OT
| every day. I did this for 2 years at an LSI fab in Colorado
| Springs and it was great.
| kennywinker wrote:
| Why would this make more sense than three 8 hour shifts per
| day, for anybody but the employer?
| cwmma wrote:
| You see this in hospitals too and I believe the rational there
| is that you want to reduce the number of shift changes. In a
| manufacturing context where you might need to shut down the
| line in order to change shifts it might be a big money saver to
| only have to do that twice a day even if you're paying out
| overtime.
| mrguyorama wrote:
| Except that rationale has time and time again shown itself to
| be horseshit, and doctors would be better off with more
| shifts (so they weren't overtired like half of their shift
| and therefore making mistakes) and better processes for hand
| offs.
| YeahNO wrote:
| It only makes medical error and accidents in US hospitals
| the 3rd leading cause of death, estimated at more than
| 250,000 deaths per year. But the hedge fund managing
| hospitals around the country save so much money by not
| having to hire sufficient staff and have reasonable shift
| turn-overs they all got bonuses, so it's all good.
| hgsgm wrote:
| When workers work longer hours, employers can lower wages due
| to higher labor supply.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| I don't think this is meaningfully impacting the labor Supply
| in India
| geodel wrote:
| Simple, because it is cheaper for companies. Less logistics to
| take care of. As for worker welfare they wouldn't give two
| hoots, if they are fatigued and produce defective parts they
| can be fired and replaced.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| I don't think it is the rational to come into a situation and
| assume that everyone but you is wrong and incapable of judging
| what is best for them.
|
| in India there are hundreds of millions of workers that would
| love to work 12 hours shifts for more pay and a better quality
| of life. I'm sure there are advantages to the factory as well.
| kennywinker wrote:
| The reason it's wrong is that if you work for 12 hours per
| day, and sleep for 8 hours per day, that leaves you with only
| 4 hours per day for living your ONE AND ONLY life
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| The problem is you don't know what the next best
| alternative is for that person.
|
| Maybe that option is working 18 hours getting fucked in a
| brothel and sleeping 6 hours.
|
| Maybe that option is working 8 hours, but watching your
| children starve to death.
|
| If people are lining up for these jobs, it is clearly
| better than their next best option in their mind. Who are
| you to say they are wrong?
| mouzogu wrote:
| https://nypost.com/2020/12/15/riots-at-apple-plant-in-india-...
|
| this is what apple does. they use their clout, then they turn
| their back and play ignorant whilst placing unrealistic demands
| on the subcontractors who then place those demand on the labour.
|
| from: https://www.macrumors.com/2023/02/14/only-half-of-indian-
| iph...
|
| > 'Apple engineers told that Chinese iPhone suppliers and
| government officials have a "whatever it takes" approach to win
| iPhone orders, work was often completed weeks ahead of schedule
| at "inexplicable speed". In India, [we] are not running at this
| pace. "There just isn't a sense of urgency," one Apple engineer
| remarked.'
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| I like when people use words like inexplicable for things for
| which they know exactly how it's achieved, but want to pretend
| they don't because the answer is disturbing.
| steve_adams_86 wrote:
| iPhones are not worth that answer. Nor is any other
| electronic. I wish this was escapable somehow, but my
| employer literally requires and pays for this equipment. To
| abstain from employment would be crazy - it wouldn't send a
| message to Apple. What the hell can someone do?
| Red_Leaves_Flyy wrote:
| I think a general strike is desperately needed. Seeing
| Biden do a complete about face on unions to enrich the
| robber barons that run domestic rail was the last sign I
| needed. Unfortunately the people who would benefit the most
| from striking are those who either drink the propaganda
| from conservative outlets or are otherwise marginalized.
| Felons, people on probation, green card workers, the poorly
| educated, chronically overworked, etc.
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| Corporate legal requirement to maximize shareholder value
| makes their behavior gas like, they'll expand to fill all
| possible space and permeate any advantageous cracks. It's
| counter productive and contrary to reality to pick on any
| one company for behaving as they're legally obligated to
| do. The issue isn't apple, the issue is governments that
| allow behavior we can't accept by corporations. The way to
| prevent a gas from permeating spaces you don't want it in
| is to seal the space, not rage against hydrogen.
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| have you considered that both state and capital are the
| problem?
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| Capital follows the state. The fact that capital also
| often guides the state is a flaw of the state. Capital is
| just people doing the job they were hired to do, often in
| a corporate framework, legally obliged to maximize profit
| and shareholder value. There's definitely a feedback
| cycle, but the source of all control and governance is
| the guys with the guns and prisons.
| 411111111111111 wrote:
| > _Capital is just people doing the job they were hired
| to do_
|
| No, that's the people that are employed by the capital.
| If you do entertain this worldview, then at the very
| least do it correctly.
|
| The few people usually described as capital are the
| owners of the vast majority of wealth in the developed
| world.
|
| And they're most assuredly not following the state.
| They're constantly pushing for unequal legislation and
| exploit as much as they can get away with. That's how
| they gain this kind of wealth
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| edit: sorry, misunderstood implications from your pro
| state and capital position
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| Whaa? I'm stating the opposite. I'm saying the state
| needs to sack up and do it's job.
| snozolli wrote:
| _this is what apple does. they use their clout, then they turn
| their back and play ignorant whilst placing unrealistic demands
| on the subcontractors_
|
| While making $30 billion in profit for the first _quarter_ of
| 2023. Apparently, this disappointed Wall Street, because they
| made $34.6 billion in Q1 2022.
|
| So, time to squeeze the vise on the little people.
|
| Also, they have $165 billion in cash and securities. Maybe they
| could just physically crush underperforming workers using gold
| bars.
| lostlogin wrote:
| > vise
|
| Alternative spelling of vice. News to me.
| georgebcrawford wrote:
| It's the American spelling.
| deafpiano wrote:
| As a American, I write it as vice.
| vondur wrote:
| A vice is a bad habit, a vise is a tool that clamps
| things together.
| lostlogin wrote:
| *in American English. Both are 'vice' in English English
| (UK/NZ/AU) as far as I'm aware.
|
| 'Vice' in American English, still has alternative
| meanings, like 'vice president'.
| glogla wrote:
| > 'Vice' in American English, still has alternative
| meanings, like 'vice president'.
|
| Does that count as English? I though it is borrowed
| Latin, like _de facto,_ _et cetera_ or _per se_.
| redleggedfrog wrote:
| Should be fine as long as the put the nets on the outside of
| the buildings to catch the jumpers. /s
| 1-more wrote:
| You had me curious so that's about 3k short tons of gold.
| Could crush a lot of people. https://www.wolframalpha.com/inp
| ut?i=165+billion+USD+%2F+%28...
| throw93 wrote:
| The HN headline is incorrect. It's not "12 hour shift for women".
| It's "12 hour shifts AND night shifts for women". Night shift
| were not allowed earlier most likely because of safety reasons
| considering India's not so great women safety record. Not saying
| it's justified but that was the reason most likely.
| dang wrote:
| I believe you but I don't fully understand this. Can anyone
| suggest an accurate, neutral title, preferably using a
| representative phrase* from the article? If so, we can edit it.
|
| *
| https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
| throw93 wrote:
| The title of the referenced article itself should be good
| enough "Apple and Foxconn win permission for 12-hour shifts
| and night shifts for women at iPhone production in India".
| The original poster omitted the words "and night shifts" for
| some reason.
| lostlogin wrote:
| That's just made it even darker. Holy crap.
| 29083011397778 wrote:
| At the headline itself: only literally. For example, I (and
| many others in Canada) work graveyard. I only have to work 4
| days a week (which is _fantastic_ ), and it's apparently
| echoed in this legislation as it "...limits the maximum
| workweek to 48 hours". Graveyard can limit ones health, but I
| think it gets a bad rap, and could wax poetic about other
| reasons I prefer it.
|
| Sent during day two of my long weekend :)
| timerol wrote:
| In addition to the 12 hour shift for all, and night shifts being
| allowed for women, there is still a 48 hour workweek, and maximum
| overtime of 145 hours in a 3 month period (an average of one
| extra 12 hour shift per week). Indian employers are required to
| pay double for overtime, so this seems mostly like the ability to
| move to 12x4 instead of 8x6. From an Indian minister:
|
| > "Now, the rule is that workers should work for 48 hours and the
| aim is to reduce work from six days a week to four or five and in
| a total week, the work still remains at 48 hours. In the case of
| those working for 10 hours a day, the workers will work for five
| days a week and those who work for eight hours a day will work
| for six days a week," Ashwathnarayan said.
|
| From https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/karnataka-passes-
| bill-a...
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| This reminds me of when people in China were expected to work
| on Saturdays back in 1999. Developing countries often require
| 48 hours a week as a way of catching up.
| kennywinker wrote:
| A way of "catching up"? Demanding an inhumane amount of work
| out of people doesn't help those people catch up, it uses up
| their one and only life to create wealth for a few elites in
| their country, and shareholders outside their country.
| archon1410 wrote:
| It's mainly the country "catching up". One would think
| development of China helped more than just a "few elites in
| their country".
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| That could be true, but America and Europe did the same
| thing before they got rich. Isn't it a bit hypocritical to
| wag our finger at developing countries now for doing the
| same thing that our countries did?
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| 1999? This was news in 2019.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system
| 1-more wrote:
| ugh, really gets to me. What the hell is the point of
| claiming to be the political inheritors of a proletarian
| revolution if you're gonna treat workers like that?
| tough wrote:
| Jack Ma took some bad rap for promoting it if I remember
| correctly
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| Ya, it is still common in some tech companies, but it was
| ubiquitous in 1999. By the time I started working in China
| (not for Alibaba) in 2007, it was not a mandatory practice
| anymore. China had changed a lot in just 8 years.
| JanisErdmanis wrote:
| > The law makes Karnataka one of the most flexible places to work
| in India
|
| This is quite a take. The flexibility seems here is meant to be
| in favour of employers, not employees who are in a situation to
| work 12-hour shifts. In that case, the word exploitable would be
| more appropriate.
|
| > be very efficient in terms of increasing productivity
|
| If the increasing length of a shift is seen as productivity
| improvement, I wonder what the next step is going to be for them.
| Stagnating wages in an inflationary environment seems like a good
| candidate.
| tsss wrote:
| And why should men have to work longer than women?
| globular-toast wrote:
| What a sad world we live in where the ability to work for 12
| hours straight is seen as a good thing.
| jdthedisciple wrote:
| I know right? I find it strange how the bulk of the HN crowd
| seems to applaud this.
|
| 12 hour average job in India is not like your comfy WFH Silicon
| Valley BS Jira ticket work.
| noturno_mind wrote:
| meanwhile here we are discussing 4-days work week
| throw93 wrote:
| It's always race to the bottom for workers when multiple states
| are fighting for iPhone factory. They drop the labor protections,
| drop minimum wages($2-3 per day), increase working hours. It's
| just a win for Apple and nobody else(maybe politicians). All this
| for a bigger screen to watch TikTok on. What a sad time we live
| in.
| [deleted]
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