[HN Gopher] Paper map sales are booming
___________________________________________________________________
Paper map sales are booming
Author : lxm
Score : 147 points
Date : 2023-01-21 19:23 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.wsj.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.wsj.com)
| midasuni wrote:
| Read a great book over summer based on a mystery of various maps
| - especially an old 1930s gas station map from a time of
| adventure that I guess doesn't exist any more. The Cartographers,
| by Peng Shepherd.
|
| https://www.washingtonpost.com/books/2022/03/24/cartographer...
| ThinkBeat wrote:
| In the city I live in, construction, random political
| initiatives, broken down infrastructure, temporary closures and
| on make paper maps entirely useless.
|
| I used to have a decent map in my head from getting around but
| that is impossible now.
|
| I do wish Google Maps / Wayze / TomTOm etc updated the maps
| faster.
| rob74 wrote:
| https://archive.is/cVuOB
| kzrdude wrote:
| Just to note, all the hiking maps I get now are made in tyvek,
| not really in paper. It's a newer material, it doesn't wear as
| much (but still some) in the folds, it is water resistant and so
| on. It's a more usable map as a result. It does feel slightly
| waxy to touch.
| sowbug wrote:
| Do you know whether there is such a thing as laser-printable
| paper that you can write on with dry-erase markers and still
| erase? I like annotating certain documents while I'm traveling,
| and I wish I could wipe them clean at the start of each trip. I
| currently laminate the things I reuse most (checklists), or
| just print a new copy each time.
| mdmglr wrote:
| Laminate the paper and use Expo Vis-A-Vis Wet-Erase Markers.
| Use to be popular in K12 classrooms before everything became
| chromebooks.
| WalterBright wrote:
| What I miss from paper maps is the size. You can spread them out
| on a table. Good luck with your phone.
|
| I got tired of using Waze, as I found that when I arrived I had
| little idea of how I got there. I had no notion of which
| direction I went, or where the destination was.
|
| Now I look at a map on my computer before I go, and sketch out
| the route on a piece of paper. Then, I tape the paper to the
| steering wheel and follow it. I know, I know, I'm out of step.
| But at least I am spatially oriented with this method.
| gregsadetsky wrote:
| No affiliation -- an amazingly niche, caring paper map is this
| one of places to photograph in Iceland:
|
| https://international-photographer.com/en/product/map-icelan...
|
| (This is the 5th version of the map!)
|
| The author only makes maps of Iceland and the Faroe Islands.
| They're beautiful, annotated with camping and natural spring
| sites, and the photographic spots are unique and cover a wide
| range of terrain / vistas.
|
| I car-camped the entire island and would refer to it to find my
| next stop. I wish the author made maps of more locations but I
| also understand that this is a work of dedication and patience.
| stevesearer wrote:
| Even though I bring my phone with offline maps downloaded (Gaia
| GPS), I still like to bring a paper map of the area as well.
|
| In addition to having another option in case my phone breaks or
| dies, paper maps are nice to have so people can gather around and
| look together and build knowledge. When solo, paper maps are an
| easy thing to look at when sitting around the camp.
|
| Shout out to my local cartographer Bryan Conant who makes
| excellent maps of both the Dick Smith Wilderness and San Rafael
| Wilderness within the Los Padres National Forest.
| vidanay wrote:
| This plus a Boy Scout level knowledge of orienteering
| (glorified triangulation with a $5 compass) can actually be
| useful in an emergency situation.
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| When we were home schooling our kids we got a map of the US from
| Imus Geographics [1] and it made it really easy to see the places
| that were being talked about in history and their relative
| position to other places. The map in general has a wealth of
| details and over the years we have often used it when planning
| camping trips around the west.
|
| [1] https://www.imusgeographics.com/
| jurassic wrote:
| Maps are an art form. There will always be a market for beautiful
| maps as art objects.
| smm11 wrote:
| We were on a road trip back to Midwestern City 1 from Midwestern
| City 2, with the grandparents driving. Every 50 miles or so I'd
| flick the rear door ashtray closed, and we'd immediately screech
| to a stop on the side of the interstate/freeway, as 'we have a
| blowout.'
| calme_toi wrote:
| I will try this in my next holiday.
|
| It is really exhausting to read those online reviews/guides and
| try to find some places to eat/visit. So next time I will buy
| maps with recommendations and follow them. If it's not good, I
| will buy a new map locally.
|
| That's it. No more reading reviews on every top rated restaurants
| nearby and trying to guess if they are fake!
| gwbas1c wrote:
| I generally use paper backups for tickets. I used to print out
| directions when I had my first GPS, but now I usually have enough
| redundancy that I don't feel like I need a paper map.
|
| I should point out that my printed directions saved me a few
| times with my first GPS. It was really bad, it would get confused
| and make me take off ramps and then get right back on; or it
| would make me drive in circles. One time it tried to send me 100
| miles up a dirt road. (I turned around and relied on printed
| directions.)
| ghaff wrote:
| Especially traveling internationally, I try to have a paper
| backup of important information. I can imagine arriving in a
| city having lost my phone and having no idea of where I was
| staying.
| eschneider wrote:
| I definitely find paper maps are better (for me) for planning
| long trips and I always keep a set in the car for places I
| normally go. (Basically, the east coast of the US.) GPS is
| fantastic for last-mile directions/where exactly is that house
| sorta thing, but "best" route for me is rarely shortest path, and
| it's just easier to visualize on a big paper map.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| Agree. I prefer major interstates for road tripping --
| something Siri & Gigi (the name we came up with for Google Maps
| persona) don't always seem to get right.
|
| So in our road-tripping van, we keep a trucker's road atlas for
| the U.S.
| maptime wrote:
| Traditional paper maps or charts are not booming at all.
|
| The biggest producer of physical nautical charts has had to
| withdraw from the market as they have become unprofitable.
|
| The increased availability of good open geospatial data along
| with amazing free open source tooling has made making beautiful
| maps easier than ever. Tools like QGIS and blender are world
| class
|
| Maybe contentious but is it really a map if it's hung on a wall
| for artistic merit? At what point is it considered art?
| panza wrote:
| I'd really like a breakdown on what these maps are actually
| used for. They could just be wall art, perhaps a (growing?)
| niche of custom guide books, maybe a renewed interest in
| exploring offroad/outback etc.
|
| Or maybe just more people are acknowledging that a fallback
| paper map in the glove box is a good idea.
| wmeredith wrote:
| "Suits are Back"
|
| Map sales aren't booming any more than point-and-shoot camera
| sales. I would bet a month's salary that this is a submarine
| article: http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html
| xyzelement wrote:
| I am sure excited to teach my kids (current age, 2.5 years, and 4
| months, so there's a bit of time) to use a map. I must have my
| old road atlas somewhere.
|
| As an engineer and product manager (and just in general) I
| constantly think about, metaphorically, where I want to get to
| and how to reasonably get there. We literally call this "the
| roadmap" - it's the ability to visualize a viable path.
|
| I _love_ Google maps (I 've relied for it on 6 continents for
| driving, transit, and walking, it's amazing) but it basically
| does the "how" for you and I want my kids to be able to do that.
|
| So if we're ever doing a roadtrip, I dunno, from NYC to Miami, I
| want my kids to be part of the planning - how many miles can we
| do a day? What are the natural destinations along the way?
| Basically, I think mapping and trip planning is a very natural
| example of breaking down the problem into sub-problems that are
| both meaningful in their own way and add up to the whole.
|
| It's also interesting to trouble-shoot this kind of stuff. If
| Google Maps suggests to us a route that is very different than
| what we mapped out - why? What is it optimizing for vs what are
| we optimizing for? I am excited to teach my kids to think this
| way.
| cassepipe wrote:
| I personnally am a fan of physical 3d maps. They are rigid and
| not for travel, and they're made out of plastic but there's
| nothing like it to _understand_ a region.
| pmontra wrote:
| If I go hiking in the mountains I'd bring with me a paper map
| just in case something happens to my phone or I run out of
| battery. A power bank backups only the battery, not a cracked or
| lost phone. Never lost a paper map though.
| KMag wrote:
| On a side note, hiking is incredibly popular in Hong Kong
| (mountain sides too steep to practically build residences right
| in the middle of one of the most densely populated places on
| Earth). However, Google maps is comically bad for hiking in
| Hong Kong.
|
| For years, the Mt. Butler HF radio station was marked as "gas
| station". (It's the only gas station I've seen with barbed wire
| locked gate and signs warning of guard dogs.) They've since
| fixed the HF radio station. However, last I checked, hiking
| from the North Point MTR to Stanley, Google maps will still try
| and route you over some overgrown paths, and up the side of a
| rock quarry where you need to scramble up with the help of some
| tied together odds and ends of rope someone has helpfully
| fastened to a small tree. Any sane human would have routed up
| Siu Ma Shan and along the back side of the quarry over to Park
| View.
| kccqzy wrote:
| Do people actually try to use Google Maps for hiking? It
| never occurred to me to even try. I always go to the
| authority maintaining the hiking trails (NPS, or some state
| or county agency) and download PDF maps.
| KMag wrote:
| Sample size 1: I have tried from time to time. Google seems
| to have Hong Kong trail maps in its data set, just poor
| quality as to which trails are passable.
| annoyingnoob wrote:
| Thomas Guide used to make the best street maps ever. I did
| deliveries pre-Internet, the Thomas Guide was invaluable.
| moomoo11 wrote:
| I've pretty much ditched Apple Maps and use the compass in my car
| and landmarks to navigate lol.
|
| It's a lot of fun for me, using maps just ruins the fun of
| exploration.
| astrange wrote:
| Maybe it's just me, but I thought the point of having a nav app
| open was to tell you about traffic/detours, not because you
| need directions.
| moomoo11 wrote:
| I think that's just you (and me maybe) haha. Most people are
| awful at navigating. I have a fairly photographic memory and
| once I read a street name once or twice I'm never forgetting
| it.
| [deleted]
| pm215 wrote:
| I buy paper Ordnance Survey maps because they come with a
| scratch-off code to get the map in their digital app. You can
| also pay an annual subscription of about 50 quid to get coverage
| of the whole UK, but for my usage, which is limited to fairly
| small geographic areas, I prefer to pay the 8 or 9 quid each for
| the paper maps covering the areas I care about, which then gets
| me access to that map forever, rather than having an ongoing
| annual expense. And it's nice to have the paper map to be able to
| look at a larger area at once.
| globular-toast wrote:
| You can access OS maps on Bing maps. Both Landranger and
| Explorer. I used to use streetmap.co.uk for this purpose but
| recently discovered Bing has them too. Useful for areas where I
| don't want to buy the map yet.
| jjgreen wrote:
| The OS do fabulous work, and not just of the UK:
| https://shop.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/the-moon-50th-anniversary-...
| reducesuffering wrote:
| Paper maps can have pitfalls to their usage. The family of James
| Kim ended up lost in the Oregon wilderness because they took an
| ill-advised route based on using their paper map.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Kim
| fsckboy wrote:
| and navigation software has driven people into lakes or snowy
| mountain passes.
|
| both systems need to be updated with better and current
| information, and yes, internet connected is easier to update,
| but is also now receiving spam.
| kimbernator wrote:
| This is a little tangential, but last year me and my girlfriend
| went to Greece for the first time. A few days after we purchased
| the tickets, a book came in the mail. She had ordered a tourism
| guide for Greece that had some recommendations about what to see,
| where to eat, where to stay, etc.
|
| My first reaction was along the lines of "why would we do this
| when we have the entire internet? Each section is written by only
| one person recommending what they liked, how can I rely on that?"
|
| Well, it turns out that avoiding the chaotic whirlwind of
| dubiously-funded and low-quality clickbait articles that come up
| on google when you search "things to do in _____" makes the
| planning process much easier. Even if the book missed a few
| places we would have enjoyed, it was a pleasure to read this
| person's insight on the areas we were in and the places they
| thought were worth seeing. It came with useful maps of every
| location we were in and gave fairly accurate pricing estimates
| for each activity.
|
| The simplicity of seeing a couple sentences about why you should
| take the time to see a historic site or scenic view, or eat at
| some little hole in the wall restaurant and taking them at face
| value makes the entire travel process so much easier and more
| fun. Googling around and seeing conversations about what to do on
| Reddit will make me second-guess every choice and wonder if I'm
| truly maximizing my trip, which is guaranteed to make the trip
| worse, regardless of what I end up seeing.
|
| Consuming data and services from the internet has become very
| transactional: Every article about tourism is either selling a
| ton of ad space or is sponsoring the recommendations, both of
| which make it more annoying to get data that way. It's hard to
| tell what the writer's financial motivations are. The same is
| true for google maps: some things are promoted because they paid
| for it, not because they are better. Books, paper maps, and other
| "analog" formats are written by people that want to sell the
| book. It's not impossible that they are getting kickbacks for
| their recommendations, but in this age where informational books
| are gasping for air, they really do need to do a good job for
| people to keep buying them.
|
| edit: I might as well plug the guide we used - as of this comment
| it's the newest version but it looks like there will be a new one
| in 06/23: https://www.amazon.com/Lonely-Planet-Greece-Travel-
| Guide/dp/...
| gernb wrote:
| That reminds me of the difference between Japanese travel
| guides and US travel guides.
|
| Most travel guides in the US look like Lonely Planet, Frommers,
| etc. A big book of words, paragraphs of prose describing
| places.
|
| Most travel guides in Japan look like catalogs. Most pages are
| full of small pictures with small descriptions, and then an
| address and map page/id (maps are included in the guide). I
| personally find the Japanese guides more interesting because I
| can browse and look for something that catches my eye. With the
| US ones I have to spend hours reading it.
|
| Here's an example
|
| https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.risve...
|
| Note: it's the same with restaurant guides. A western guide
| will often just be listings with descriptions. A Japanese guide
| will be full of pictures of the food and/or restaurant. Of
| course Yelp etc have user pictures now-a-days
|
| https://www.amazon.co.jp/-/en/dp/4838754876?ref_=Oct_Oct_d_o...
|
| (click the previews)
| space_fountain wrote:
| Not really disagreeing, but I'd like to plug Wikivoyage which
| has also (for me), been very helpful
| andrepd wrote:
| +1 for wikivoyage
| TheSkyHasEyes wrote:
| > low-quality clickbait articles that come up on google when
| you search "things to do in _____"
|
| Reddit subs are handy for that. Search term:
| site:reddit.com/r/denver things to do
| rr888 wrote:
| Another benefit too is that the places to stay are usually
| available. Pre-Internet the hotels listed in the LP were
| usually booked out a year ahead, now you can actually reserve
| spaces in the recommended acommodations.
| a_e_k wrote:
| Regarding the "only one person recommending what they liked"
| aspect vs. second-guessing choices based on Reddit, it reminds
| me a bit of Segal's Law [1]: "A man with a watch knows what
| time it is. A man with two watches is never sure."
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segal%27s_law
| tppiotrowski wrote:
| When Lonely Planet guides were popular, there was a trend of
| investors buying popular hostels/attractions from the guide and
| running them into the ground before the next Lonely Planet was
| published and warned of the demise. I haven't seen this as much
| lately (maybe due to rise of online reviews), but cross-
| referencing Lonely Planet with TripAdvisor is the sweet-spot.
| fmajid wrote:
| I like the beautifully illustrated Dorling Kindersley books
| (disclaimer: my wife used to work for DK a _long_ time ago, but
| in children 's books, not the guides).
| quickthrower2 wrote:
| Guide books can get you excited to see something, explaining
| the history amor significance.
|
| Sans guide book I would use tripadvisor I think you would get
| decent enough quality there.
| ghaff wrote:
| When you're going to spend maybe a few thousand dollars to
| travel someplace (especially cities or other popular mainstream
| areas), not spending $15 or so on a Lonely Planet/Rough
| Guide/etc. seems like false economy. Is it definitive? No. But
| it's generally a well-curated guide to what people like.
| madcaptenor wrote:
| Yes! And I'd probably pay, I don't know, fifty or a hundred
| bucks for a _subset_ of Lonely Planet that 's just the things
| _I 'd_ like.
| ghaff wrote:
| LP does a pretty good job on digital too. I often default
| to physical for this sort of thing but admit to liking LP
| on phone just because it's with me without extra
| bulk/weight.
| mvexel wrote:
| Part of this resurgence can undoubtedly be explained by the ready
| availability of high quality open geospatial data sources like
| OpenStreetMap.
|
| The United States has always had a lot of open geospatial data
| available, but it's patchy, can be hard to find, and is of wildly
| varying quality. In Europe, open (geospatial) data has become the
| norm, but that wasn't the case even 10 years ago. And in spite of
| harmonization efforts, it can still be hard to cobble together
| map data that is consistent across countries from government
| sources.
| courgette wrote:
| I live between France and the US. France has
| https://www.geoportail.gouv.fr/ and IGN topographic map of
| every square centimeter of the country. The US has... google
| map and you can also find some decent topographic map online.
| It's just way harder to find the paper version. ( must have in
| my book for hiking and such )
|
| That article actually provide great resources to buy good
| topographic map of the US. It's been a struggle and a
| frustration for me.
| redtriumph wrote:
| While the article points out alternatives people use in modern
| era, I always had a pull towards paper maps. My father had a
| collection of atlas of India and its different cities. I spent
| lot of time parsing through them, even though I haven't been to
| upper half of country yet.
|
| On recent vacation, while we were trying doing street shopping, I
| came across Lewis-Clark map [original size] and then I thought I
| might as well use maps as wall art. I ended up buying following
| two classic replicas.
|
| a. Hindoostan map of 1827:
| http://www.davidrumsey.com/maps4000.html
|
| b. Western North America of 1846:
| https://digitalcommons.csumb.edu/hornbeck_mex_1/7/
|
| Next lookout: Hydrological map of North America.
| philip1209 wrote:
| Some of the most fun I've had while traveling is exploring a city
| without a phone. Just write down your home address and
| destination address on a card, and if you need a mulligan - a
| taxi can take you to either.
|
| Related: this reminds me of the "paper phone" concept from
| Google: https://experiments.withgoogle.com/paper-phone
| TurkishPoptart wrote:
| I love this idea! Looks like Google either didn't launch it or
| shitcanned it after a year.
| dwringer wrote:
| I went through a roller coaster of emotions reading this
| thread and clicking through all the way to the github repo,
| where it slowly dawned on me that this was not just layers of
| satire.
| kypro wrote:
| Something I find really fun when traveling in the car with kids
| is to give them a paper map and ask them to plan a route a for us
| to get to our destination. Then when you're driving ask them to
| follow along and give the directions.
|
| Obviously they can't be too young and they're not going to be
| perfect, but if you have a child around 7-13 they'll probably
| find this quite fun.
|
| Being able to use a map is one of those skills which admittedly
| isn't all that useful today, but I still think it's fun to plan
| out your own routes and decide the kinds of roads you'd like to
| take and the places you'd like to pass on your way from A to B.
| Plus, there are so many times my phone has died or my GPS has
| randomly stopped working and I'm glad I have my paper map with me
| just in case.
| sigspec wrote:
| When I was 12 I was the "navigator" using state rest stop maps
| on a 14 hour drive with my Grandfather. It's a great memory.
| macintux wrote:
| I navigated a cross-country road trip when I was 14. Absolutely
| a great way to learn about maps, traveling, time estimation.
| pdntspa wrote:
| The flippant attitude that people have towards map-reading
| today is appalling. Maybe its the eagle scout in me but how can
| someone NOT want to learn to read a map? It isn't even that
| hard! What happens if your device fails you?
| ryanianian wrote:
| I'm also an eagle scout. Taught the orienteering merit badge
| for years.
|
| But secret: I have the absolute WORST sense of direction. I
| have no internal sense of orientation or distance. Seriously
| I get lost if I turn left out of the corner store instead of
| right. I can read a map with a compass and straight-edge and
| find where I am based on triangulation. But once I actually
| have to make realtime decisions using little more than a map
| I get anxious and frustrated, I usually just give up and look
| for landmarks or one-way streets that I can find and follow.
| Or hope that my phone's terrible compass and navigation-
| hostile map programs work. (Can we talk about map apps not
| even showing street names or one-way directions without
| having to pan and zoom all over the map?)
|
| Even if you know how to read a map, they're just not a very
| good UX for finding where you are and making minor course-
| corrections in realtime.
| MisterBastahrd wrote:
| Even before mapquest was a thing, I was recording
| directions from paper maps as if it was. Sure, I'd have a
| map open if I were driving in an area I was unfamiliar
| with, but I'd also write a list of roads and exits.
|
| The only real major advantage that gps systems have over
| the list method is that they can tell you when you're near
| an exit. Back in the early 00s I was driving to New Orleans
| from Dallas on a particularly foggy night and I missed the
| same exit 3 times because I could barely make out the exit
| signs.
| lubujackson wrote:
| It is incredible how much of the human mind is centered
| around orientation and direction. It makes sense from an
| evolutuonary perspective, but there have been studies about
| how quickly the skill atrophies without use.
|
| I believe it is a valuable skill to maintain or develop. Kids
| most obviously develop it now through games like Minecraft,
| but I wouldn't be surprised if there is a correlation between
| navigational skills and general memory ability.
| dudul wrote:
| I've always been a bit surprised by the sentence "learn to
| read a map". What is there to learn exactly?
| ryanianian wrote:
| Looking at a map and doing basic a->b route planning is
| straightforward. Doing it well is a skill. Finding yourself
| when you don't know where you are and have limited landmark
| info, and using the cartographically-significant features
| of the map to plan a route that avoids hazards or navigates
| with tolls, highways, and rest-stops in mind are very much
| a skill that needs to be practiced even if the MO is simple
| at first.
| dudul wrote:
| I feel like we're diverging towards trip planning here
| more than just reading a map. That, sure i can see how
| experience can make a difference.
| fooker wrote:
| Given a map, can you find where you are in the map without
| GPS?
|
| How about planning a route from contour plots?
|
| Or maybe figure out which direction you should go without a
| digital compass?
| dudul wrote:
| Yes to all. The map is a projection of your surroundings.
| You just need to "map" what you see to the map to be able
| to see where you are and where north is. I guess contour
| plots is a tad more advanced since it's trying to
| represent the z axis on a flat sheet of paper.
|
| I'm not trying to be obtuse, I genuinely don't see how it
| is difficult to read a map.
| fooker wrote:
| > You just need to "map" what you see to the map to be
| able to see where you are and where north is.
|
| Well, you have provided a neat definition of map reading.
| :)
| dudul wrote:
| I know lol that's why I'm not sure how it is difficult or
| something to learn really.
|
| I guess your mention of representation of elevation made
| me realize that you at least need to learn the
| conventions and the key to a map.
| Shared404 wrote:
| +1.
|
| Not an Eagle Scout, and have mixed feeling on scouting as an
| org at this point, but I'm very grateful to have learned how
| to read maps properly.
| Pxtl wrote:
| Funny story - I was at Disney for new year's, and Disney
| parks have an impressive mapping app, but phones aren't great
| at detecting your heading when you're not at driving speed
| and the walking directions mode was awful. As a result, it
| was basically a dumb map with lots of excellent live data on
| it and a "you are here" dot.
|
| A lot of people were having trouble with it because we're all
| used to "turn left here" instead of the top-view get-your-
| bearings go-that-way approach to a map.
| aliqot wrote:
| Don't even get me started on the compass :/ the coddling that
| our technological advances provide are erasing entire swaths
| of generation intellectual wealth.
| rcthompson wrote:
| Back before ubiquitous smart phones, I had a (now ex) partner
| who I discovered couldn't read a map to save their life. I
| printed out the Google maps route to the nearest Target (we
| had just moved to a new city) and was surprised when they
| couldn't give me directions based on the map because I didn't
| also print out the turn by turn directions (which I
| considered a redundant waste of paper).
|
| I think that incident was what made me realize that map
| reading was a skill that actually needed to be learned.
| madcaptenor wrote:
| The younger kid version of this - I ask my four-year-old if we
| should turn or go straight (at places where I know either way
| will work). She also keeps looking at maps and pretending she
| knows how to make sense of them, so maybe I should work with
| her on that.
| eldaisfish wrote:
| an interesting thought experiment is to ponder just how many
| skills are being lost due to technology. I know how to read a
| map and how to find rough compass bearings but i was never in a
| situation where i needed either skill. Could i manage without
| GPS - probably but i'm not confident.
|
| If GPS died tomorrow because of a solar flare, would the
| younger generations manage?
| zikduruqe wrote:
| https://www.gislounge.com/spatial-orientation-and-the-
| brain-...
|
| Studies have shown that people just cannot read maps anymore
| due to dependence on GPS apps in their daily lives.
| ajmurmann wrote:
| That's odd to me. Even when using GPS I'm always looking at
| the map to figure out what the upcoming turns are because I
| have zero faith in the accuracy of the voice directions and
| arrows. Do people just follow the directions without
| understanding the route on the map?
| arp242 wrote:
| I exclusively use the map and never use voice direction
| or arrows. Everyone I've mentioned this to or has seen me
| do it thinks I'm weird for doing so, so I'd say it's
| uncommon.
|
| I find it a lot easier as I have a mental picture of
| things.
| DavidPeiffer wrote:
| >Do people just follow the directions without
| understanding the route on the map?
|
| Most people I know do that.
|
| I almost always look at a preview of the GPS route and
| try to understand the gist of the directions before I
| start driving. I build a narrative like "2 left turns, 1
| right, then driving for quite awhile before taking an
| exit". It helps my mental model of the areas of town and
| how they connect.
| madcaptenor wrote:
| Even if they are accurate, sometimes the voice directions
| don't give enough lead time if you need to change lanes.
| wintogreen74 wrote:
| Forget about maps and navigation, I just wish all the
| people obliviously using their phones in public had the
| spatial awareness to realize they exist in a shared space
| and take up physical volume. Think sidewalks, roads, etc.
| culopatin wrote:
| But doesn't mean they won't learn the next thing if it's
| gone.
| xrayarx wrote:
| One of the many things we unlearn or never learn because of
| the ,,smart" phone
| wwweston wrote:
| I think GPS is best thought of as "directions as a service"
| (demand defaulting to JIT).
|
| What would probably happen is that people would start asking
| for / giving directions again; my impression is that maps
| have usually been secondary to this ad hoc social process of
| informal directions, and it would probably re-emerge.
| wyre wrote:
| I don't know if this is true for older generations, but for
| myself and many of my zoomer and millennial friends barely
| know street names making giving or receiving directions
| much harder.
|
| Personally I rarely rely on turn-by-turn navigation but
| instead look at the map before hand and take a mental map
| of the directions to get there.
| wwweston wrote:
| That's interesting. Are you saying many people you know
| don't usually check street signs against the name of the
| streets the GPS directs users to? I know that's my reflex
| when I have readable street signs, but I guess I have no
| idea what portion of people rely on that vs the "feel" of
| how close the turn is from the visual representation on-
| screen (which I use sometimes too, but don't like relying
| on since it often lags a bit) or other cues.
| brewdad wrote:
| I always try to build a mental map of whatever area I'm
| traveling to. Even if only the major highways and
| arterials. My GenZ son is fully reliant on GPS to go
| anywhere he hasn't been at least three times before.
| While I'm sure he could build a mental map if he needed
| to, it's not something he does because he's never had to.
|
| He also has no concept of road names. I was describing
| the route I would take when he needed to travel across
| the Seattle metro one time and any road other than I-5
| was a complete unknown to him. It's a little scary to me.
| arp242 wrote:
| > If GPS died tomorrow because of a solar flare, would the
| younger generations manage?
|
| I learned to read maps when I was like 10; maybe younger.
| It's not that hard. I'm pretty sure they'll pick it up plenty
| fast enough when required.
|
| The real problem with a map shortages and scalpers selling
| maps for fucktillion dollars.
| MSFT_Edging wrote:
| Ah scalpers, the true issue that will cause the death of
| our civilization.
| poulpy123 wrote:
| Yes they will learn quickly as I did before gps
| tradertef wrote:
| This is answer to a lot of question. The fact that people
| are dependent on some technology today does not mean that
| they will be non-functional when that it is taken from
| them. People adopt very quickly.
| bee_rider wrote:
| I think people could re-learn they skill pretty quickly, but
| putting that aside, I wonder how well we could do with just
| ground based stuff. We'd still have triangulation via cell
| towers, which was widely used not that long ago. Also I
| wonder how well we could do with a modern cellphone using
| image recognition on the road signs paired with a really
| accurate map of the roads.
| Kon-Peki wrote:
| Great idea!
|
| Old marine maps had various landmarks on them, along with
| their height. This allowed you to get angle and distance,
| giving you the opportunity to calculate position with pen
| and paper even if you only had a single landmark in view.
| floren wrote:
| Not just old marine maps -- modern marine charts have the
| same. They mark radio towers, grain silos, etc. because
| although GPS is widely-used, the old navigation
| techniques are still important.
| kypro wrote:
| My GF has been telling about how there's a lot kids at her
| school that don't know how to tell the time on analogue
| clocks anymore.
|
| She says it's because kids don't interact with analogue
| clocks much anymore and Covid lockdowns meant that a lot of
| kids never learnt it in school either. So apparently there is
| now a generation of kids who are around 10 - 12 who have no
| idea how to read the time from an analogue clock.
| InitialLastName wrote:
| On one hand, I get the concern about this because
| mechanical clocks still exist, familiarity informs me that
| they're easy to read, and nostalgia tells me they're
| important.
|
| On the other hand, they are unintuitive, less common with
| every passing year, and I'd rather my children get any
| recess than add "learn to use another antiquated tool" into
| the school curriculum. I do complicated math for a living,
| but nobody's offended that I didn't ever get good at using
| a slide rule.
| mmcgaha wrote:
| Ten years after the slide rule calculator came out, the
| physical slide rules had virtually disappeared. Clock
| with hands show no signs of disappearing. Sundials on the
| other hand are safe to ignore.
| InitialLastName wrote:
| > Clock with hands show no signs of disappearing.
|
| I can't remember the last time I saw someone with a
| mechanical watch other than as a fashion statement.
|
| 25 years ago, my household had mechanical alarm clocks, a
| mechanical clock on the oven, and multiple mechanical
| clocks on the walls of different rooms. Today, I think I
| might have a broken mechanical watch in my "you should
| probably fix these things" piles.
| davchana wrote:
| One of my memory is to learn reading time on analogue watch
| from my uncle as a kid.
| gnicholas wrote:
| My parents required me to have an analog watch as my first
| watch. We did the same for our kids.
|
| Where we are, analog time-telling is a required part of the
| (common core) curriculum. So kids would have to learn it in
| school, though not necessarily internalize it for long
| enough that it would stick in the long run.
| randomdata wrote:
| Is that abnormal? I remember not being able to read an
| analog clock at that age, several decades ago. Even back
| then they were uncommon.
| algog wrote:
| Your thought reminds me of Socrates' quote on how writing
| makes people not use their memory.
| Out_of_Characte wrote:
| People are completely dependend on GPS but also might not use
| it as often as you would think. First time planning a route
| to some new job/home/friend requires GPS but after that I'll
| do everything on autopilot. Proximity to existing routes also
| massively reduces complexity.
|
| In general, I think our adaptation has significantly
| increased our ability to navigate at the minor cost of using
| either the map and compass or the new gps and advanced map
| data.
| jesterpm wrote:
| On our last road trip, I gave our 4 year old a printed map with
| the route highlighted and lettered milestones every hour or so.
| I was hoping to give a sense of scale (how far away are we, how
| far we do we travel in a certain time, etc.) that's harder to
| convey with a digital map. It also worked to practice letters
| and cardinal directions (we're at K, what's the next letter?
| the road turns at M, which direction will we be going now?). It
| worked rather well, but probably because he got a gummy bear at
| each waypoint.
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| > It worked rather well, but probably because he got a gummy
| bear at each waypoint.
|
| truth :)
| bombolo wrote:
| > Being able to use a map is one of those skills which
| admittedly isn't all that useful today
|
| I've met people who constantly get completely lost despite the
| use of the phone.
|
| The issue with the phone is that especially under rain or
| trees, the position can be off of several hundreds meters, so
| you have to look around and find yourself on the map, because
| the phone really has no idea and is just guessing.
|
| The compass thingy also works terribly on android and iphones
| alike, but for some reason people still think that if the arrow
| points a certain way, you can actually trust it.
| WWLink wrote:
| A lot of cars have the option to display a map on the radio
| screen, so I'm kinda surprised. I love using that thing! I
| always have an idea of the alternative streets available when
| I'm stuck in traffic because it's always there.
| brewdad wrote:
| I had a rental car in LA once that couldn't decide if I was
| on the freeway, the off-ramp or the surface street nearby.
| It spent a good 10 minutes constantly telling me to make
| impossible turns or even U-turns before I turned it off and
| relied on my general sense of the area from previous visits
| and road signage.
|
| GPS is great when it works and downright dangerous when it
| doesn't.
| astrange wrote:
| The phone compass often works poorly near magnetic metal
| (which is... often). Once you start moving it will calibrate
| itself, but that can take a block or two of moving in a
| straight line in an urban area.
|
| Mounting your phone on the windshield helps with GPS some, as
| does getting a newer phone with L5 GPS.
| mminer237 wrote:
| Even with a map on your phone, it's useful to have some map
| reading skills so you can get a good idea of where you are and
| where you need to go without relying on turn-by-turn navigation
| which can sometimes catch you off guard or malfunction.
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| I love maps. I have a map of the Pacific Crest Trail (which I got
| at REI) on the wall of my living room - it's beautiful to look at
| (still need to frame it but it's on the list!), informative
| (cleverly shows elevation along the trail in a column on the
| left), and leads to interesting conversations with guests.
|
| We also have metal "night" city maps (from displate.com) of
| cities my wife and I have lived in, which make wall decorations
| (i.e, arranged in a pattern of 8) .
| adamwong246 wrote:
| I will go out of my way to use _anything_ that is not a screen. I
| stare at screens, all day, ever day. Every moment not gazing into
| a hyper-bright magic rectangle is a relief.
| rascul wrote:
| Many states in the US offer free road maps, generally available
| at welcome centers when you cross a state line on an interstate.
| Also many states, counties, and municipalities offer free or low
| cost paper maps. I pick up paper maps whenever I can, and some
| are hanging on my walls.
| joshstrange wrote:
| > His customers, he added, aren't just looking to maps for
| directions, but as inspiration for future trips or even as art
| worth hanging.
|
| I think that alone accounts for the vast majority of this
| increase. The article throws that in as a minor detail but I'd
| bet money it's the only reason. Of course you don't get as many
| clicks for "More people are buying maps as art". 2 of the 3
| examples of maps they give at the end are exclusively art (raised
| maps and the coffee map).
| narag wrote:
| I'm renting now, so I avoid putting things on the wall as much
| as possible. But I used to have a map to help build a mental
| map from repeatedly seeing it. Recently I've noticed that
| something similar happens to me with analogic watches.
| irrational wrote:
| I love National Geographic maps of ancient places. They
| basically are maps as art.
| romwell wrote:
| >The article throws that in as a minor detail but I'd bet money
| it's the only reason.
|
| For most people, perhaps.
|
| After working in Google Geo, I drove across the country and
| back (CA - NC - TX - CA) using the trusty Rand & McNally atlas
| and compass, and couldn't have been happier.
|
| No nagging voices telling me where to go. No countdown timers
| making me wary of taking a scenic detour. No feeling of going
| on rails.
|
| Yes to seeing things and being aware of my environment. Yes to
| understanding where I am at all times. Yes to exercising my
| brain and being in control of my lived experience.
|
| Yes to not becoming stupid [1][2][3][4].
|
| But sure, maps are pretty too.
|
| [1] https://www.vocativ.com/418342/google-maps-gps-
| navigation/in...
|
| [2] https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=5179471&page=1
|
| [3] https://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/a-sportsmans-
| life/gps-i...
|
| [4] https://www.thedrive.com/news/8686/study-using-gps-
| navigatio...
| warner25 wrote:
| I love maps, and I'll admit that my wife and I have a bunch of
| map art hanging on our walls, one of each city or state where
| we've lived, but they're not like actual maps that you could
| fold up and take on a road trip. I hadn't thought of hanging up
| that sort of map. I'll also admit that I haven't bought a paper
| map to put in the glove box of my car in over a decade. I have
| printed Google Maps before a trip, though.
|
| This is coming from a career Army officer, so I'm quite used to
| looking at maps on the walls of operations centers, and doing
| serious map-and-compass navigation exercises.
| kortilla wrote:
| Where do you buy nice ones for the wall? I've wanted to do
| this but end up stumbling across random bespoke ones.
| tristor wrote:
| I only own one paper map, and it is specifically for art. I've
| traveled extensively and I wanted a way to track where I've
| been, so it's stapled to a pin-board, so I can put push-pins in
| after I visit somewhere. I've been primarily using a portable
| form of GPS for more than a decade, even before Google Maps.
| now__what wrote:
| As a hiker I find paper maps absolutely essential and far
| easier to use than anything digital. Maybe it's because of that
| familiarity that I print or buy paper maps whenever I'm going
| on a trip more than a few hours' drive from home. I also rely
| heavily on printed maps and guidebooks for any extended travel
| and for trip planning, which are excruciating if you're relying
| solely on the internet. Can't say I've ever used a map for art.
| troymc wrote:
| It's a plausible hypothesis. I'd like to see data.
| ghaff wrote:
| Essentially retro-chic.
|
| Some may have also discovered some utility in being able to
| have a big picture view of a destination. However, I wouldn't
| impute too much utility to the explanation. I'd be pretty
| surprised if younger generations are suddenly discovering that
| it can be really useful to have a physical backup in case their
| phone battery dies.
| wingworks wrote:
| This, and while no small device can easily replace a large
| physical map, but map developers aren't helping here either.
| I find more often then not, in map apps the 2nd you zoom out
| even a little, you start losing half the details. Even on a
| larger iPad. Especially the topo map apps, which also tend to
| forget most devices are HighDPI, so the topo image is also
| blurry.
|
| I just wish I could set the map level to it's best, then zoom
| out as far as I want without jumping to a worse level map.
| tppiotrowski wrote:
| I agree with the big picture utility. A good project would be
| a map where you can choose to display all Best Westerns,
| Shell gas stations, etc at state zoom level so you can
| visualize a day's worth of travel including food, gas and
| lodging destinations without needing to repeatedly search
| GMaps. (i.e. it looks like there's a Shell station in 15, 65
| and 128 miles along our route...)
| Finnucane wrote:
| Down the street from my office is a store that sells maps as
| art. Old maps, new maps, and transit memorabilia. One of the
| advantages of a digital map is that it always up to date, but
| that also means it can never be a historical document, the way
| an old map can be.
|
| For myself I have a pile of bike maps, that I admit I don't use
| as much as I used to (partly because I have all my regular
| routes in my head now). The nice thing about those maps is that
| they marked elevation changes, and also the location of ice
| cream shops. You know, the essentials.
| capekwasright wrote:
| Ward Maps in Cambridge, MA?
| Finnucane wrote:
| yes.
| ben7799 wrote:
| I'm totally hooked on digital navigation but one thing I've
| noticed is it takes me longer to learn an area to the point I
| know my way around if I use digital navigation.
|
| There are times digital navigation is a million times better. I
| remember getting lost in the boroughs of NYC a few years before
| smartphones hit the world. It was very difficult to have the
| right paper maps in your car for a place like NYC.
|
| But in more rural travel it didn't really matter.
| dljsjr wrote:
| Anybody remember Triptiks from AAA? You'd go to a AAA office or
| call them on the phone, tell them where you were going, and in
| return you'd get a printed spiral top-bound pad with your trip
| broken down in to multiple legs, the roads/routes pre-
| highlighted, gas stops and prices estimated in, a list of sites
| for stopping off at, etc. All human curated and human annotated
| (the roads on your route were literally gone over by a person
| with a Highlighter). I'm sure it was all pulled from some sort of
| centralized/normalized/standardized data source but the human
| touch was definitely there.
|
| They were awesome. When we were growing up most big family trips
| were in the car because gas and hotels were just so much more
| affordable than flying an entire family _anywhere_. I got to be
| the "navigator" on so many trips by helping family members read
| the Triptiks.
|
| Apparently AAA still offers these, but they're generated
| digitally now via their app, and you can print them off if you
| want. But something about those human-built Triptiks were really
| really special.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| There's still an AAA office that I drive past all the time.
| Never been in there, though. I should go and ask for a Triptik
| sometime.
|
| When I told people I went to Alaska, the inevitable answer was,
| "Oh, did you go on a cruise?" No, I didn't go on a _forking_
| cruise. Those are for lazy people.
|
| What I've started doing is booking a short (2-4 days) trip
| _inside_ the country or state, and being independent before &
| after that. You still get some guidance and socializing and
| seeing things you wouldn't otherwise, but your whole vacation
| isn't locked in. I recommend this.
| squokko wrote:
| Don't know why you hate cruises. Definitely the most cost
| effective way to see multiple spots on the Alaskan coastline.
| [deleted]
| kulahan wrote:
| Travel is such an personal thing - it's people in an
| environment at least somewhat foreign to them. Trusting someone
| to plan it is a pretty intimate thing, and companies don't do
| intimate things very well anymore. Too many people, too few
| companies.
|
| I'd pay good money for more personal experiences from
| companies, _especially_ when it comes to something like this,
| but it 's not easy. The wife and I were looking for a honeymoon
| package, but neither "beach" nor "romantic European getaway"
| were on our list. Roughly 90% of _travel companies_ were out of
| ideas after that. It 's literally their JOB to plan trips and
| they can't deviate from a template. It's pain incarnate.
| Pxtl wrote:
| Travel agents still exist. If they don't know how to plan the
| vacation of your dreams, they know somebody who does. I used
| one to plan a trip to Florida, which was obviously a normal-
| ass tourist thing but they got in touch with another agent
| who knew the ins and outs of where to stay at the Space Coast
| and the pros and cons of onsite stay vs offsite for Disney.
| rjh29 wrote:
| I understand why that niche doesn't exist - most people
| looking for a personal experience tend to plan it themselves.
| Though it would be nice to say "I want to go here, here and
| here" and have someone book all of the hotels and transport.
| AlotOfReading wrote:
| You can totally do that at the luxury divisions of firms
| like Scott Dun and Protravel if you have the money. They'll
| even get you a chauffeur and dinner reservations at that
| high end restaurant if that's what you want. If you need
| anything mid-trip just call the 24/7 concierge and they'll
| figure out how to get it to you.
| bobwaycott wrote:
| Just curious here--what sort of things _were_ on your list
| that you couldn't find? If there were better templates, what
| kind of trips would you expect to be able to plan?
| marcosdumay wrote:
| If it's something like what we had at my country, it's not a
| travel _plan_.
|
| It's a book, fully indexed, with searchable and fully
| reviewed information about the place you are going and the
| path in between. You use it to make your own plan, or to
| improvise.
|
| Specifically about improvisation, it has become almost
| impossible nowadays because there is no reliable information
| about anything.
| convolvatron wrote:
| monetization really screwed this up. having a connected
| computer in your pocket with the ability to search
| everything and make shelter and travel reservations and
| perform other important actions instantly should really be
| perfect for this.
|
| but somehow I always end up having to sign up for a bunch
| of services in a hurry and take crappy pictures of my id
| only to find out that the hotel doesn't know anything about
| my reservation when I arrive anyways.
|
| sometimes I even have to upgrade my phone while sitting on
| a curb to get the app to arrange for the payment etc .etc.
|
| or that lovely looking and affordable Airbnb is next to an
| open sewer
| ghaff wrote:
| There are specialty outfits specific to an area/country
| and/or type of activity that I've used which are pretty good.
| But most mainstream travel agents have been book a
| cruise/flight/tour for pretty much forever.
|
| My dad had one for years who was better than that but I've
| only sometimes used specialty agencies, e.g. for English
| walking trips.
| fbdab103 wrote:
| I am boring, but one of the reason I keep wanting to take a
| cruise is because I do not want to plan anything. Show up at
| this place, at this time and then there will be a bunch of
| exotic* stuff to see/do/eat.
|
| *Exotic very much being in the eye of the beholder, but
| something different from my daily costal urban experience.
| jjeaff wrote:
| Went on a road trip 2 years ago and an older family member went
| to AAA in socal and got a physical triptik book for the trip.
| navane wrote:
| Most innovation sells you an inferior product for a lower
| price. It is almost never better than what was available in the
| past, just cheaper.
|
| Life becomes a series of more, but lower value experiences.
| drdec wrote:
| The positive side of the trade off is that the technology is
| usually available to more people by being more affordable.
| bumby wrote:
| This is an interesting thought. What other examples are you
| thinking of besides the maps? And does this extend to
| innovations that create a whole new space, or is it just when
| innovation does an existing thing differently?
| skygazer wrote:
| I think this was the premise of the Innovator's Dilemma,
| which showed examples where disruptive competition comes
| from below, and catches big companies off guard, toppling
| them, all the while prior they were successfully optimizing
| their business, until poof.
| madrox wrote:
| As a kid on many a roadtrip in the 80s, I have a special
| fondness for triptiks. It gave me something to focus on and it
| gave my parents some peace as I quietly studied maps. I have a
| vivid memory of going to AAA before a roadtrip where someone
| would walk us through the route they chose.
|
| However, it's all nostalgia. There is nothing about them that I
| would've preferred over a phone or tablet with working
| internet, had they been a thing back then.
| HappyJoy wrote:
| Oh, yes! My Dad used to have these made for our summer road
| trips. I used to love pouring over the maps before the trip to
| get hyped up. Then, in the car, following along as we drove. I
| forgot about that till your comment reminded me. Thanks for the
| nostalgia!
| dylan604 wrote:
| I always wanted the computer program Clark used to plan the
| route for the family trip to Wally World.
| shafoshaf wrote:
| But I was never able to chase the car with a Pac Man.
| JCM9 wrote:
| Yes. I remember going into the AAA office with my dad before
| family vacations to pick them up. They gave you a whole pre-
| trip briefing too on current construction, tips and any issues
| you might encounter. While apps like Waze do a great job of
| getting you from A-Z they completely lack the contextual
| information about where you're going, things to see along the
| way and other details. One really had to pay a lot more
| attention to what was happening too vs just waiting for some
| voice in a box telling you to turn off the highway. Rest stops
| and roadside attractions where part of the adventure too vs
| todays boring cookie cutter outfits with the same chains.
|
| I probably sound old and nostalgic but there were some things
| that were just "better" when life was a bit slower and not
| completely driven by tech---and I'm someone that works in tech!
|
| Those trips really felt like an adventure whereas now it's just
| push some buttons and drive.
| jll29 wrote:
| In theory, I can set my car navigation system to "Paris" now
| and drive there for a coffee (in about 9 hours or 788 km). I
| can even half-way change my mind and drive to Prague instead,
| without any preparation. The car will make sure that a lot of
| silly mistakes will be avoided, at the expense of perhaps
| some new silly mistakes (but fewer than without navigation
| system, for most casual drivers).
|
| Of course, that modern ability lacks the anticipation,
| excitement and celebration of the annual family trip
| experience that you talk about, and yes, a personalized
| physical map that not just aids your navigation to your
| holiday/vacation destination but later becomes a memory
| artifact/artefact when said road trip is fondly remembered
| and re-imagined.
|
| We invent electronic replacements for things and processes
| without giving much thought to the positive aspects of the
| experience that we may wish to retain (or better: re-create)
| before replacing them. Naturally, the first iterations of the
| substitute will be lacking. Later refinements will be
| evaluated relative to previous versions of the electronic
| replacement, not the original experience, which is soon
| forgotten. That's why many electronic/automatic replacements
| are lacking: examples include manual maps versus car
| navigation systems, human layout creation versus DTP
| publishing, traditional printing versus print on demand,
| traditional slide photography and development versus digital
| photography. The new is not just a replacement of the old, it
| is different. But the new often renders the old uneconomical
| and makes it disappear, like it or not, even when they tell
| us that the new thing is "complementary" to the old. For
| better or worse, free market economy does not have a place
| for something _and_ its substitute, only the cheaper one of
| the two.
|
| I would pay for a nicely printed and bound, personalized
| street map of a planned family holiday/vacation if the price
| was appropriate, and they did not ask me for the date and
| time of departure... ;-)
| jhallenworld wrote:
| I just tried the online site: my complaint is that they only
| show AAA-rated places to eat. On the other hand, the "5
| diamond" places look really nice... it might be interesting to
| try some of them. I forgot all about AAA-rated restaurants.
| Turing_Machine wrote:
| The Milepost used to be essential for those who traveled in
| Alaska and Northwestern Canada. It's still quite useful, given
| that there are plenty of places there that don't have cellular
| service or any other kind of internet access.
|
| https://themilepost.com/about-us/
| dieselgate wrote:
| As of about 7 years ago AAA was where I'd always go to get
| paper maps in general - wasn't aware of Triptiks at all
| chordalkeyboard wrote:
| AAA will also print them themselves and mail them to members
| upon request.
| boilerupnc wrote:
| Old-school AAA TripTik(r) Walkthrough [0]
|
| [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcMih8fjq5Q
| dljsjr wrote:
| This is amazing! It's exactly how I remember them in my head!
| massysett wrote:
| In a lot of ways, electronic maps are still inferior to the
| Triptik.
|
| Even the Rand McNally showed highway rest areas and picnic
| areas. The Triptik also showed gas stations. Electronic maps
| often lack this entirely, at least in easy form.
|
| The Triptik shows what you need to know while on a long motor
| trip. The electronic map emphasizes details I don't need.
|
| At a glance the paper map tells me whether a road is free
| limited-access, toll limited-access, multi-lane divided, two
| lanes but major, two lanes and minor, a country lane, or a dirt
| road. Electronic map only tells me this if I zoom in on a
| satellite view, and it might even route me over a two-lane road
| to save five minutes on a two-hour trip when there's a much
| safer freeway that most drivers would prefer.
|
| Paper map has little dotted lines for scenic routes. Electronic
| map doesn't.
|
| Mostly I'm surprised the electronic maps don't have these
| things after all these years. Maybe Apple will get them
| eventually. Google is busy stuffing ads into its maps.
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| I'm pretty convinced that Google just doesn't understand
| information economics. In case you haven't noticed, Apple
| maps are getting better and better and I prefer their turn-
| by-turn directions over that of Google.
|
| The interesting thing is that Apple now offers "explore" vs
| "driving" maps, I hope they also add "walking" or "Cycling"
| maps. And because they aren't driven by advertising sales,
| the maps can be more useful without compromising sales
| revenue.
|
| If Apple decided to invest in a crawler/indexer with a search
| front end to give Siri the data sources for better response,
| and to allow for "pure" informational search (rather than
| search-ad/revenue prioritized search), once it got good
| enough for that it would put Google into a very tight spot.
| (Well tighter than the one it currently finds itself in).
| phaedryx wrote:
| I've found that when I'm planning things I tend to use
| Google Maps, but when I get in the car I tend to use Apple
| maps. I swear there are little differences like Google
| instructions will be "In X feet... turn right" where Apple
| is "turn right at the stop sign" which is easier to follow.
| criley2 wrote:
| Apple's solution isn't a serious contender because it's
| hardware locked to high end devices that the majority of
| people don't use / can't afford (the demographics of this
| community not withstanding).
|
| While it's nice that their users can have an alternate
| first-party experience, that experience is not a publically
| available map. For example if you go to maps.apple.com you
| are told "Open this on your Apple Hardware".
|
| (i.e. If 100% of Apple users used Apple Maps, Apple's best
| case scenario is still #2 in mapping)
| tannhaeuser wrote:
| Apple isn't a serious contender because their devices
| aren't sponsored by tracking/ads? You can also get an iOS
| device (partly) included with a post-paid mobile plan,
| can't you?
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| One could argue that "most" people[1] have iPhones (at
| least in the US). And yes it is only 22% world wide. But
| putting aside the currently available "seats" for a
| moment, at the point where is it clearly the better
| product then two things start happening
|
| 1) People start buying Apple hardware _because_ it has a
| better map experience.
|
| 2) Apple can produce the iMap device, likely in
| cooperation with their maps partner TomTom, that people
| can use to get the Apple Maps experience without changing
| their phone provider.
|
| [1] https://www.oberlo.com/statistics/us-smartphone-
| market-share
| larrik wrote:
| I've been growing pretty dissatisfied with the state of
| electronic maps. Basic things that are usually either
| impossible or difficult while using Google Maps or Apple Maps
| for directions:
|
| - What road am I on? What _town_ am I in? -
| and other flavors of "where the hell am I, anyway?"
| - This is especially annoying when on the phone and the
| person is asking where you are, and the best you can answer
| is "Google says I'm X minutes away"
|
| - What road is this coming up next? - instead
| it puts the name halfway along the road, which is out of
| view... - Some of the true nav systems (Garmin,
| etc) do this better.
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| There's no way to see a street name on Apple Maps without
| zooming in entirely. And sometimes even then, I'll see
| something like Route 99 instead the name by which everyone
| refers to the road: "Broadway".
| nemonemo wrote:
| Those two types of maps are targeting different groups --
| paper maps targeting the somewhat advanced users who know the
| basic navigation and have little need to consult the legend.
| The electronic maps target much wider audience and can be
| dumbed down since people can interact with the map. Sure, the
| electronic maps probably can stuff more info to be shown at a
| glance, but my impression is that they chose not to.
| kortilla wrote:
| Some of these things are too annoying to do at scale so
| they just skipped it rather than choosing to intentionally
| dumb it down.
|
| Making the call on what is a "scenic route" isn't something
| you can just pull directly from highway department data.
| dmurray wrote:
| You could predict it from Streetview data though! A small
| bit of computer vision would go a long way here. Actually
| this seems like a fun project for someone inside or (if
| the API is not too throttled) outside Google.
| tuatoru wrote:
| > paper maps targeting the somewhat advanced users
|
| Since when did using a map become an "advanced" life skill?
| Is "Idiocracy" becoming a documentary?
| kortilla wrote:
| >Mostly I'm surprised the electronic maps don't have these
| things after all these years. Maybe Apple will get them
| eventually. Google is busy stuffing ads into its maps.
|
| Yeah, google is always going to be trash for anything that
| doesn't align well with advertising. Better to show a
| Starbucks than a rest area, etc.
| dylan604 wrote:
| so it's the gas station's fault for not buying Google Ads
| then, right? Google can't possibly be blamed. The don't do
| evil. It's just the people using their services that do
| evil things. /s
| wirrbel wrote:
| The German equivalent still offers this and out of curiosity I
| ordered it once it was fairly disappointing, a map, some travel
| info, thats about it.
| mxuribe wrote:
| I had always heard of this - and so highly regarded for
| years(!) - but never used myself.
| rr888 wrote:
| Went hiking while relying on a phone app. Offline, it cached the
| map no problems, until a few hours in when the TTL must have been
| triggered then everything disappeared. Bought a real map soon
| after.
| ghaff wrote:
| I won't say I'm religious about it--especially if somewhere
| familiar--but if I'm being doctrinaire, I'd argue you should
| always have a physical map and compass while hiking.
| folli wrote:
| ... and know how to use it ...
| ghaff wrote:
| Fair. As someone who grew up with physical maps, using them
| is pretty intuitive but I can see how it wouldn't be for
| everyone. And, of course, some aspects of topographic maps
| take some education.
|
| With respect to compass, I'm not sure how critical real
| orienteering is for most people. It's more about not being
| totally turned around and/or being able to make sure you
| hit some feature like a road.
| purpleflame1257 wrote:
| Just being able to know which way is "north" is probably
| sufficient.
| jcranmer wrote:
| There's a difference between geographic north and
| magnetic north that can get pretty significant (if you
| live in NE US, magnetic north about 10-20deg west of
| north). If you're sailing the clipper route, for part of
| your journey, your magnetic compass now points as far as
| northwest rather than north.
| ghaff wrote:
| Hiking in the northeast US, you're _generally speaking_
| on trails. I 'd certainly encourage people to acquaint
| themselves with magnetic deviation and so forth. But,
| especially as a backup mechanism, the main value of a
| compass is to avoid having absolutely no idea what
| direction you're going.
| jcranmer wrote:
| In my recent hiking experience, a lot of trails in the NE
| --even in popular parks--are pretty poorly marked, and
| these days, virtually every hiking trip involves at least
| one point where the trail makes a sharp curve, but
| there's something that looks trail-ish that continues
| ahead, and it's only a few hundred feet down the line
| that you realize you might have missed the trail.
|
| The little handheld trail GPS my parents got me after my
| first such misadventure has proven incredibly useful for
| figuring out where I made the wrong move. (The first such
| misadventure, I was using the paper map to work out if
| there was a bend I missed).
| panza wrote:
| I've seen some otherwise capable people struggle with
| compasses and map reading. It's a good idea to print out
| some basic map reading instructions and attach it to the
| map just in case. That way, anyone else in your
| family/party will have a running start if something
| happens to the 'map guy'.
| 082349872349872 wrote:
| While you're attempting to generally go downstream (think
| about it), even if you wind up totally turned around,
| then at least _never_ leave your drainage.
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| Yup. I didn't know where I was, but knew what drainage I
| was in, and knew that my car was at the upper end of
| pavement at the main stream in the drainage. I went
| downhill until I hit the main stream. Oh, the road is
| paved? Follow that up to the car. No sweat, even though I
| really didn't know where I was. Just knowing I was within
| the drainage was all I needed.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| I love paper maps, but I have to admit I don't use them
| much. Speaking of the WSJ, my paper copy is waiting out
| on the driveway. For hands-free reading while you're
| eating breakfast, it beats the snot out of reading off a
| screen. Something about the number of words you can read
| without scrolling.
|
| As for orienteering: I learned it once and never used it.
| (btw, the Sierra Club course where I learned it got
| cancelled when someone sued over an injury in ice ax
| practice.)
| purpleflame1257 wrote:
| This is the reason I keep a paper atlas under the seat in my
| car. Ultimate off-grid redundancy.
| jmkb wrote:
| Use an app that permanently downloads maps -- I like Mapy.cz
| and Organic Maps. And bring a waterproof phone case, an
| external battery, and a charging cable.
|
| And _also_ bring a waterproof paper map because it 's lighter,
| easier to read, more resilient, and more fun.
| petodo wrote:
| +1 for mapy.cz for hikers, they use OSMaps, but have
| definitely more hiking trails than osmand or maps.me and
| better readable
| kzrdude wrote:
| OsmAnd is very good. You download maps for it. And OSM data in
| general is a great deal better at hiking trails than google
| maps.
|
| And it's good/useful to know that you can always try to use GPS
| even in airplane mode. Just GPS is recieve-only so it's passive
| (but the location service uses multiple sources of information
| apart from just GPS or GPS-like if it can.)
| kwhitefoot wrote:
| And Osmand does walking routes while offline which Google
| Maps does not.
| kzrdude wrote:
| Yes, it has offline route finding for car, other transport,
| and walking. Of course sometimes you really miss having the
| traffic info from google, but for other things it works
| fine. I've driven a few 1000 km following OsmAnd..
| rob74 wrote:
| Strange... if you store a map for offline viewing in Google
| Maps, it will be cached for at least a few months - and when
| that time expires, it will ask you if you want to update it.
| But I can't vouch for the various hiking apps which may be
| better for hiking data, but have worse UX overall.
|
| Or you can use an "offline-only" app like OSMAnd and feed it
| with GPX tracks downloaded from hiking sites, then you only
| have to worry about keeping your battery charged...
| rr888 wrote:
| It wasn't google maps, it was a free version of an app. I
| should have known better but thought it'd work.
| denysonique wrote:
| If for some reason the offline google maps don't get updated
| and expire, you are going to be unable use them at all in a
| critical situation.
| skyfaller wrote:
| According to CNet, with Google Maps "Transit, bicycling and
| walking directions are also not available offline -- only
| driving directions." https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-
| software/why-you-shou...
|
| So Google Maps offline may actually be useless for hiking?
| This would also explain why I had trouble using Google Maps
| offline on my last bike trip.
| TurkishPoptart wrote:
| How dreadful. Well, there's always Alltrails.
| ufmace wrote:
| Well that's just it - it's probably supposed to do that. But
| bugs happen, and a phone could die or break for any number of
| reasons outside of your control. People on the internet
| trying to explain why some particular failure that you saw
| shouldn't happen won't be there when you're stuck with no way
| to navigate, and their arguments won't be of any use. Paper
| maps are actually immune to most of these failure modes.
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| Non-laminated paper maps may not survive immersion all that
| well. On the other hand, your phone may not survive that,
| either...
| kwhitefoot wrote:
| Try Osmand (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OsmAnd).
| petodo wrote:
| or even better Mapy.cz, better interface and better curated
| hiking trail data than osmand/maps.me
| mvexel wrote:
| For hiking and other back country activities, I rely on Gaia
| GPS, but there's others that offer offline capabilities
| (sometimes as part of a subscription) like AllTrails, OnX and
| CalTopo.
| MengerSponge wrote:
| MapOut for iOS is my favorite hiking map app. Excellent offline
| maps, and it's easy to import GPX files for new trails.
| ttcbj wrote:
| They aren't mentioned in the article, but Butler Motorcycle Maps
| fit with the theme.
|
| You can currently access the same data via an app called Rever
| (which is great for actually driving a route you have already
| planned), but the physical maps give a better overview, and more
| accessible editorial content, than the app does:
|
| https://butlermaps.com/
|
| They are more useful for deciding where you want to go in the
| first place.
|
| As developers, I think it is really interesting to think about
| why this is true/possible. (I also find it true that PDF
| brochures for automobiles are a better way to understand the
| different trims than the car's website). All the
| filtering/searching/data analysis features of software seem so
| powerful, but sometimes committing to a single, static format for
| presenting information yields a more comprehensible result.
| DrThunder wrote:
| I love looking at paper maps for my wilderness
| backpacking/camping trips. I really like seeing where the trail
| leads and what camping spots I can use. It just makes it feel
| like a big adventure.
|
| Additionally, having a weather proof map for wilderness trips is
| invaluable. I'd never rely on a digital device to provide what
| could be a life saving tool.
| troymc wrote:
| Wilderness backpacking/camping trips are a great use case for
| (laminated) paper maps. You really need a good map, and you
| don't want to be dependent on an electronic device that has
| many failure modes (e.g. running out of power, getting wet,
| getting dropped into a canyon, getting smashed...).
| freitzkriesler wrote:
| I thought I was the Luddite, I have a leather bound north America
| map in my 300D for when the mobile phone networks get shutdown by
| solar flares.
| quirk wrote:
| Gotta have an atlas for when SHTF!
| controlch wrote:
| We recently had to define the boundaries of polygons that
| designate the various sectors of a city. We found that hand
| drawing them on a paper map was far more convenient than doing
| the same on a screen. This of course involves the initial design
| of the polygons and not the subsequent transformation to their
| respective coordinates, which inevitably had to be done using a
| map software.
| crtified wrote:
| In my experience, most land planning is done (or at least,
| starts) with a pencil on paper, even today. Technicians then
| take over the work of making it a detailed digital reality.
|
| The computer is wonderful in so many ways, but it does not yet
| (in common usage) replicate the direct physical connection, the
| casual efficiency and universal understanding of the real world
| pencil-on-paper tool.
| reader_x wrote:
| A cartography professor of mine once advised me to take another
| career path because cartography was dying; he added, "Google Maps
| has terrible maps- but no one seems to care." It heartens me to
| see in HN comments that some are noticing. A pet peeve of mine is
| when water bodies go unlabeled. An old-fashioned paper map like
| the kind inserted in National Geographic mags when I was wee
| included a breathtaking amount of information, but that requires
| careful design so element labels don't overlap etc.
| gumby wrote:
| There are a lot of things you can learn from a paper map that you
| can't by looking through a small window into "map space". The
| paper map has all sorts of affordances the digital maps don't,
| and vice versa.
| Eumenes wrote:
| If you're an outdoors person in maine, you pretty much need one
| of these: https://www.amazon.com/Maine-Atlas-Gazetteer-
| Delorme/dp/0899...
|
| Google maps is often wrong with roads/atv/snowmobiel trails, and
| its also very useful for finding boat launches
| Zigurd wrote:
| I have seen maps of Boston since forever, but it was not until
| using Google Maps to navigate that I realized some parts of
| Boston I assumed were not well connected are in fact conveniently
| driveable.
|
| I suspect this boom is like describing cassette sales as
| "booming." Supposedly sales doubled in 2021.
| college_physics wrote:
| Fact number one: with the connected supercomputer, gps, camera,
| audio recorder etc in our hands travel gets upgraded (at least in
| principle) not one but several levels, from the mundane and
| practical to the sublime
|
| Fact number two: the tangible, tactile reality, longevity,
| versatility, privacy, artistic beauty of a well made map or
| travel guide cannot be replicated, certainly not by the crappy
| websites that have come to dominate this space
|
| Conclusion. We have two legs. Walking and hiking is better if we
| use them both :-)
| courgette wrote:
| When I enter a new state, a buy a road map of that state. Then I
| store it under a seat of my van. Phone battery die, cell signal
| can be weak. And I can scribble on the map.
|
| It's just a better tool.
| [deleted]
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