[HN Gopher] BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Te...
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BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP
batteries
Author : baybal2
Score : 70 points
Date : 2021-10-21 20:42 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (pushevs.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (pushevs.com)
| infocollector wrote:
| Just in case -> BYD Co. Ltd. is a Chinese manufacturing company
| headquartered in Shenzhen, Guangdong, founded by Wang Chuanfu in
| February 1995. Perhaps someone can comment on quality of these
| batteries compared to the current car batteries Tesla uses?
| gamblor956 wrote:
| For point of comparison, LA had several EV buses built by BYD
| and literally none of them work anymore despite only being
| service for about a month or two. In fact, almost every US
| transit agency that has purchased a BYD EV has had issues with
| the vehicles, batteries, or both.
|
| So to answer your questions: the BYD batteries will be a lot
| lower quality than the batteries Tesla currently gets.
| balia wrote:
| Is arbitrarily pointing out "fyi this is a CHINESE business"
| the new "fyi this is a JEWISH business"?
| da_big_ghey wrote:
| Closer to in 1939 remarking on somebody who buy their
| chemicals from IG Farben or weapon from Heckler and Koch.
| simondotau wrote:
| If it's arbitrary, then yes. In this case I don't think it's
| arbitrary because country of origin has significant
| ramifications for application of patents, etc.
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| That interpretation might be a bit inflammatory. But at a
| minimum, it's certainly the new "fyi this is a JAPANESE
| business."
|
| How'd _that_ work out for the generation of manufacturers
| that used it as a veiled insult?
| DavidPiper wrote:
| As a young(ish) person, I've definitely heard "fyi this is
| a CHINESE business", but haven't really heard "fyi this is
| a JEWISH business" or "fyi this is a JAPANESE business".
|
| Are there communicable/generalised messages or stereotypes
| people are trying to invoke with this sort of thing, or
| have they always just been intended as slander?
| tuatoru wrote:
| I can't speak to "Jewish", but I can to "Japanese".
|
| It relates to Japan's industrial rise after WWII.
|
| In the 1950s, "Japanese" was synonymous with "shoddy and
| cheap". The stereotypical import from Japan was an HB
| pencil.
|
| In the 1980s, "Japanese" became synonymous with "cheap
| and reliable" -- think Toyota vs General Motors. American
| manufacturers responded with racism rather than fixing
| their problems.
|
| There was hysteria in the mainstream media that Japan was
| going to overtake the US to become the biggest economy in
| the world. People who see the world in zero-sum terms
| made idiots of themselves.*
|
| In the 2010s, "Japanese" seems to have become synonymous
| with "advanced and very high quality". "Japanese
| capacitors" on computer motherboards, for instance.
|
| And now that the Chinese are here, we've always been best
| buddies with Japan.
|
| To some extent this same sequence is happening with South
| Korea and Taiwan, and possibly Israel.
|
| * There's a famous essay, "The Paranoid Style in American
| Politics" which goes some way to describing this zero-
| sum, win-or-lose thinking in politicians.
|
| https://harpers.org/archive/1964/11/the-paranoid-style-
| in-am...
| macinjosh wrote:
| I don't think so, though perhaps it should more accurately be
| phrased as a COMMUNIST CHINESE business. That is why people
| care, because the CCP has an aytpical way of doing business
| that comes with its own risks and potential problems. It
| really has everything to do with economics and nothing to do
| with race/nationality/heritage.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| It has a lot to do with jingoism/nationalism, albeit maybe
| not race explicitly (although I doubt the cultural rift
| between the two does much to help).
|
| I rarely see the same level of outrage against Saudi
| Arabian oil (yes, yes, a low proportion of gas in the US
| nowabouts) or things produced in many other circumstances
| that are at least as "unfree" as they are in China.
|
| Because of that, I find it difficult to believe that it is
| based off of some principled stand over governance.
| Jensson wrote:
| Saudi Arabia selling oil is just them selling natural
| resources. China selling high tech better than anyone
| else in the world is signs of the world order changing.
|
| Edit: Personally I am excited that we can potentially
| have another billion educated people to help solve the
| worlds problems. I see more and more good things come out
| of China, so I am optimistic over the potential to trade
| ideas and not just cheap labor.
| Syonyk wrote:
| Careful there. They might decide that the problem that
| the world needs solved is that China and the CCP don't
| rule all of it. Yet.
|
| China has been moving in a very, very nationalistic
| direction lately.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| BYD is also a competitor in the electric vehicle space.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Auto
|
| (They make great KN95 masks, incidentally.)
| cowmix wrote:
| Better: * can charge to 100% all the time * no rare earth
| minerals * stable
|
| Worse: * not as energy dense * US doesn't make a lot of this
| type of battery
| CarVac wrote:
| The US doesn't make a lot of this type of battery because
| there is a consortium of patent-holders who charge enough to
| make LFP less economically viable that wasn't able to secure
| all the needed patents in China.
| elihu wrote:
| I think the main patents that haven't expired yet are about
| to expire in 2022.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| Didn't this also happen with airplanes in like the 1910s?
| Can't we fix it in a similar way?
| Robotbeat wrote:
| Climate mitigation depends on patent reform, sounds like.
| sbierwagen wrote:
| Patents have a 20 year lifetime. US5910382 and US6514640
| have already expired. It might _speed up_ climate
| mitigation, but it 's not strictly required for it to
| happen.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| So Tesla's Li-ion batteries are going to have a significantly
| higher mass energy density - these are around 150Wh/kg vs
| 230Wh/kg that Tesla can currently muster. This is somewhat
| mitigated by the fact that LiFePO4 handles 100% charges and
| 100% discharge, so in practice the protections on Li-ion means
| you can only really get 190Wh or so out of them every day,
| significantly narrowing the gap.
|
| However, these are going to be ~4x cheaper for the same
| capacity, and are much safer, so some weight might be gained,
| but they won't take more space, possibly less space because
| they are prismatic.
|
| To give you an estimate on the possible cost savings, BYD has
| it's own EVs, and the one they are releasing using these
| batteries costs 20 000$ before subsidies for 51kWh.
|
| LiFePO4 also has much higher durability - that means that you
| can get away with more efficient pack designs, and probably
| that they can handle much faster charging.
| caf wrote:
| The CATL LFP batteries Tesla has been using already have only
| gone in the SR+ model, because they couldn't fit enough for
| the necessary range in the LR and P models, so in practice
| they do seem to use more space.
|
| As far as I know they're not prismatic, they're using the
| same form factor as the NCA and NMC cells in those models.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| The article seems to say that these are the BYD Blade
| batteries so it would be prismatic, unless the article is
| wrong
| caf wrote:
| I'm not sure it actually says that - it says that Tesla
| has signed a deal for BYD LFP batteries, and it says that
| BYD blade battery packs are energy dense, but it doesn't
| actually link those two and say "Tesla has signed a deal
| for BYD blade battery packs".
|
| One of the linked articles does report earlier rumours
| around Tesla using blade battery packs from BYD, but then
| also has quotes from BYD saying "we never said that".
| r00fus wrote:
| Iron based batteries also remove cobalt and nickel
| requirements, making them less environmental and politically
| difficult.
|
| Anything to make EVs more mainstream has my interest.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| Absolutely, it's a big part of why they're cheaper.
|
| I just wish I could actually get them for reasonable prices
| in smaller quantities. I have to pay a 3-5x premium for
| LiFePO4 batteries. I'd love some at a reasonable premium
| for my ebike :)
| danans wrote:
| Adding to this info - LiFePO4 batteries are far more
| chemically stable and therefore need no cooling system. I
| have LiFePO4 home backup batteries and they are completely
| passively cooled.
| nathannecro wrote:
| I'm in the market for home backup batteries and was
| wondering if you could namedrop the mfgs of your batteries
| if you were satisfied with them.
| grayhatter wrote:
| Overkill Solar https://overkillsolar.com/
|
| I've ordered twice, and plan to order another 5kw soon
| AshleyGrant wrote:
| You're opening a whole can of worms in trying to decide
| what LiFePO4 batteries to buy. There's tons of options,
| prices have been dropping precipitously this year across
| the board.
|
| The first question to ask yourself is if you want the
| comfort of a high quality warranty or would you like the
| cheapest possible price per kWh?
|
| In my RV, in May, I went with somewhat high-end
| Battleborn Batteries. They have a great warranty, which
| has come in handy as one of the batteries I bought
| experienced an issue and needed to be sent in for repair.
| They paid for shipping in both directions.
|
| That being said, nowadays even just a few months later, I
| might decide to "self-insure" given how good the cheaper
| batteries have gotten.
| krasin wrote:
| I highly recommend Will Prowse's channel who extensively
| covers batteries, solar panels, invertors and other home
| solar stuff: https://www.youtube.com/c/WillProwse
| nathannecro wrote:
| Perfect, thanks for the recommendation. Looks like I'll
| have quite a few videos to watch.
| elihu wrote:
| > This is somewhat mitigated by the fact that LiFePO4 handles
| 100% charges and 100% discharge
|
| I don't think that's quite true. LFP cells have a minimum
| voltage; they may survive being discharged to zero, but it
| probably isn't a good idea for long-term longevity. (I'm
| currently working on an EV conversion that uses LFP cells,
| but I haven't actually done durability testing or anything
| like that, I'm just going by what people recommend.)
|
| Lithium ion and LFP batteries though don't have voltages that
| are linear with capacity; on an LFP once you're below 2.2
| volts or so there's not much left.
|
| I do agree though that LFP cells are pretty amazing if you're
| a car manufacturer that wants to make a reasonably priced
| mass-market EV. I think in the near term (i.e. until there's
| some cheaper/better substitute), they could take over the
| non-luxury-car EV market and allow the rest of the world
| outside of China to start seeing pretty good EVs that are
| price competitive with equivalent ICE vehicles.
| kemiller wrote:
| They can get away with less safety buffer and cooling
| equipment and so at the pack level, they can claw some of
| that mass energy density back. Not all of it, but combined
| with other advantages, they're quite viable for EVs, and no
| brainer for stationary storage.
| sbierwagen wrote:
| Tesla cars manufactured in China use Chinese LFP batteries:
| https://jetcharge.com.au/blog/tesla-model-3-australia-made-i...
| This story is about Tesla maybe switching from one Chinese
| vendor to another.
| anonymousiam wrote:
| Tesla said that they will use LFP batteries from now on in all
| "standard range" cars.
|
| https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/20/tesla-switching-to-lfp-batte...
|
| As I understand it, the "standard range" cars are no different
| from the long range cars, other than a software flag that allows
| a greater battery discharge.
|
| So this will complicate the Tesla fast battery swap stations if
| they ever actually build any of those.
|
| https://www.tesla.com/videos/battery-swap-event
|
| https://www.businessinsider.com/teslas-battery-swapping-plan...
| dangrossman wrote:
| There are a couple replies about why Tesla doesn't still do
| battery swaps, but none of them got it right:
|
| Back when Tesla demoed the battery swap capability,
| California's CARB was offering extra ZEV credits for each
| electric vehicle sold with "fast refueling" capability. Tesla
| set up the single "battery swap station" in order to comply
| with the letter of the law and collect a few extra millions in
| credits. That one station they opened was right across the
| street from a free Supercharger station, had no capability for
| automated battery swaps, and was available by invitation only.
| As soon as Tesla collected its extra ZEV credits and the
| qualifications changed, the station was abandoned.
| gremloni wrote:
| Battery swap stations are never going to happen. They make up
| too much of the cost of the vehicle. Maybe in government public
| transport fleets or something.
| adfrhgeaq5hy wrote:
| The battery swap stations were a scam to get subsidies. They
| aren't any more real than the Cybertruck, Model 2, Roadster,
| solar roofs, semi, or Full Self Driving.
| caf wrote:
| The standard range cars have a physically smaller battery and
| one fewer motor.
| ericmay wrote:
| > So this will complicate the Tesla fast battery swap stations
| if they ever actually build any of those.
|
| I don't think they'll ever build those. Huge infrastructure
| requirement, gigantic overhead, most people don't take long-
| distance trips often and when they do a 20 minute supercharge
| is good enough for people to not really demand a battery swap
| station.
|
| You also can expand the footprint of "cords" much faster and
| much farther. Not to mention battery swap stations probably
| wouldn't be designed to service other cars, unlike future
| charging stalls.
| iknowstuff wrote:
| Tesla has no plans to develop battery swap stations. They
| abandoned them back in 2015 or so.
|
| Standard range cars have fewer cells than long range cars, so
| it's not just software, they physically output less power.
| pmorici wrote:
| "So this will complicate the Tesla fast battery swap stations
| if they ever actually build any of those."
|
| They aren't planning do battery swapping. None of their recent
| designs have any provisions for it. That was something they
| considered early on and then abandon once they advanced their
| fast charging technology.
| [deleted]
| grecy wrote:
| Elon has said multiple times Tesla will buy all the batteries
| from all the suppliers they possibly can AND make their own as
| fast as possible AND increase existing contracts with Panasonic
| AND seek out as many new suppliers as physically possible.
|
| Takeaway: Tesla want more batteries.
| paxys wrote:
| Everyone wants more batteries. Batteries are going to be the
| new semiconductors over the next few decades.
| consumer451 wrote:
| Modern IP rights combined with the IP wild-west that we have
| allowed in China are about backfire on western industry so hard.
| See section 3 here:
|
| https://roskill.com/news/batteries-the-true-drivers-behind-l...
|
| We chose to give China a 10 year head start on LFP at scale.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| FWIW Sony sued BYD for patent infringement in Japanese courts
| and lost. Sanyo sued BYD in US courts and settled mostly on the
| side of BYD. BYD also managed to invalidate a Panasonic
| patents.
|
| It seems to me that China bet on LFP, the West bet on Li-ion,
| and China's bet is pretty successful. You'd be right to say
| that patents limited LFP in the West, but generally
| Japanese/Korean firms seemed relatively uninterested in the
| tech. LFP was very much under-developped until recently and
| there was a lot of path-dependence and a lot of bets on Li-ion
| outside of China.
| xxs wrote:
| LiFePO4 has lower energy density and it's way more durable.
| Both properties go against the throw-away culture. (Hand
| held) Tool industry thrives on selling battery packs - every
| single brand has its on battery lock-in to boot as well.
| Phones often get disposed once their battery capacity
| diminishes.
| ysleepy wrote:
| Tidbit: Flixbus, the origins of FlixMobility which bought
| Greyhound tried the BYD C9 bus on the Mannheim - Frankfurt route
| in 2018-2019.
|
| They stopped because of re-occurring partially multi-day outages
| due to battery issues, which were LiFePo. The press coverage is
| vague, but explicit in mentioning battery issues.
|
| I assume that tesla did their due diligence and BYD fixed the
| issues by now.
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