[HN Gopher] Is Going to the Office a Broken Way of Working?
___________________________________________________________________
Is Going to the Office a Broken Way of Working?
Author : sien
Score : 198 points
Date : 2021-10-11 19:11 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.newyorker.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.newyorker.com)
| the-dude wrote:
| Is WFH the acronym of the year already?
| dijit wrote:
| I'll echo a bit what others say. I like the office.
|
| A separate space, where I don't pay for power, where colleagues
| can drop in on me, where the space is centred on peace and there
| are subtle conveniences like vending machines.
|
| I like it.
|
| But I'm not willing to commute 30+ minutes each way of my own
| time for that.
|
| And I'm not willing to sit in one of those battery farm open
| offices.
|
| Being able to control my own audial/visual environment has done
| wonderful things to my focus, productivity and mood.
|
| I'm much less bitter as a person now, I know another person who
| is also perceptibly less bitter.
| stevage wrote:
| Well said about being able to control your auditory and visual
| environment. I used to struggle a lot in office spaces if there
| were noisy conversations nearby, people pacing about etc. Much
| better at home in solitude.
| AlexanderDhoore wrote:
| Yes. And so is working from home. It's all broken.
| delaaxe wrote:
| Working is broken?
| codetrotter wrote:
| The world is broken.
| willismichael wrote:
| My son, nine years old at the time, said "If you think the
| whole world is messed up, then you are messed up."
| cgrealy wrote:
| Nothing against your son, but at 9, you don't know much
| about the world.
|
| If you're an adult and you _don 't_ think the world is
| messed up, you need to learn more about the world.
| wussboy wrote:
| This is unfair. In an uncaring universe, humans have done
| quite well. The world was never "fixed" for us to break,
| and it never will be. The fact most of us live in civil
| societies of any kind is a miracle or the first order.
|
| I get frustrated at this nihilism. A quick trip to any
| point in the part would reveal how truly lucky we are right
| now, and would inspire us to drag our sorry species even
| further from the abyss.
| WJW wrote:
| Things can be quite far from "the absolute worst" and
| still be quite far from perfect, too.
| waynesonfire wrote:
| we're not that far from absolute worst. the world is
| savage.
|
| Continuing my rant, it's one of the things I like about
| Jordan Peterson. His ideas face this fact head-on. He
| reminds listeners and readers of this and then presents
| his ideas given this truth. It seems to me that a
| philosophical idea that doesn't incorporate that as a
| basis is fundamentally flawed as it's a pretty important
| detail.
| kingludite wrote:
| There is a good bit of factory work where human labor is reduced
| to quality control. You look at a conveyor belt and wait for the
| defective product to come along. Machine learning would work but
| still has issues with calibration. It either has false positives,
| lets defects pass or it does both. If you aim for plenty of false
| positives and put a human observer in the system to review the
| camera footage they too can do their work from home. You wont
| have to pay western salaries either.
| alkonaut wrote:
| Collaborating with people who are physically in the same space is
| not broken.
|
| Commuting an hour to do so five days a week is broken. I have
| been an office worker for 10 years and then fully wfh for nearly
| another ten. Neither is perfect, but I'd choose 0 days in the
| office over 5, and I suspect 1-2 days a week or a week per month
| would be perfect.
| InternetPerson wrote:
| Yes! I've been wondering if people prefer to work from home. Now
| I can finally read all your comments to find out!!
| filmgirlcw wrote:
| The biggest problem with working from home, especially as it
| exists in the last 18 months, is that it ruins the entire
| work/life separation thing.
|
| For a long time, large companies like Google and Facebook bribed
| employees to basically live at work with an influx of perks. Free
| laundry. Nap rooms. Catered meals. The whole point is for you to
| never leave so you'll work more. I think most of us can agree
| that is unhealthy and not good for the employee.
|
| So now we've traded that for you work from home, but still don't
| get to disconnect from work. So you don't have the commute or the
| dress code stuff and potentially fewer meetings, but you're
| always on call. You're expected to work more. Your house is now
| your office (and plenty of us don't live in places with room for
| a wholly isolated workspace, especially if two people are working
| from home). And you've given up the social interaction that makes
| going into an office really nice for plenty of people.
|
| Obviously, ever is a good and healthy way to do remote work. I'm
| not disputing that. What I will dispute is that the way most
| companies have optimized for remote work over the last 18 months
| is the wrong way and I have zero faith that any of the
| organizations will adjust themselves to do it the right way.
|
| So for me, if the choice is to have little work/life balance but
| at least have more room at my house and social interaction at
| work -- or to literally live and work in the same cramped space
| without human interaction, I'll take the office.
| zmmmmm wrote:
| > it ruins the entire work/life separation thing.
|
| I actually think this is going to be an interesting aspect : it
| will significantly affect the demand for housing with separated
| work/living areas.
| swman wrote:
| I'd much rather have quarterly check-ins or some semi-annual
| company event to attend.
|
| Even if I go back to the office, my entire team is geographically
| distributed. Only a couple people on my team would be in the
| office, while others are all over the world. So, even though I
| also miss the office I'm not sure what going back would mean for
| me now that my team setup is so different.
|
| So, have to think about that.
| rblion wrote:
| Living in Maui, I have a remote job (my agency/consultancy) and a
| job doing fun stuff (driving people to Hana, Haleakala OR working
| on a whalewatching boat). I am setting up residual income streams
| to save for my own property here.
|
| I have a startup/movement I am working on as well, freeing up my
| time from clients to invest more time and money into it.
|
| Balance is the key to fulfillment, to longevity.
| OldHand2018 wrote:
| You might want to edit that it's a whale watching boat, not a
| what hunting boat. Unless...
|
| Sounds like a great balance you have; good luck saving up for
| the house!
| merpnderp wrote:
| If someone is bothered enough about whale hunting to get
| triggered by someone working a whale boat, they already know
| there's no whale hunting operations out of Hawaii.
| gaoshan wrote:
| I genuinely miss the office. Being in a different space for work
| (one that was pretty gorgeous), in a nice part of downtown, able
| to tap people on the shoulder for quick questions rather than
| having to ping them over chat, more spontaneous collaboration
| (right before we went remote again I overheard two people
| discussing an area I have some expertise in and was able to
| interject and provide useful insight), extra productivity (I do
| better when I'm around others working, worse when I am alone),
| the occasional happy hour, the occasional lunch with others, the
| not horrible drive where I can jam tunes or listen to podcasts
| and have some time to myself.
|
| Not being able to do all of that has brought me lower and lower
| as the months go by. Made a similar comment on reddit and got
| downvoted into oblivion but this is really how I feel and it
| really does impact me negatively. I'm sure I'm not the only one,
| though it does feel like I might be in the minority.
| tezzer wrote:
| I'm with you, 100%
| hansor wrote:
| Amen! You are not alone. :)
| tmm wrote:
| For those of you who miss the office, what does your life look
| like outside it? Do you have an active social circle? Do you
| have regular, sustained, positive interaction with your
| neighbors (i.e. do you do more than say hello in passing)? Kids
| who do sports? A long commute or a short one? A house or an
| apartment? Do you do your own housework or do you hire it out?
| When you're in the office, where do you work (e.g. private
| office, cubicle, open plan)?
|
| Prior to working from home (since late 2018), my social circle
| was limited to the office. After nine years in the same
| neighborhood, I knew two neighbors (three before the ones next
| door moved away) and only one who I knew well enough to ask to
| pet-sit. Work and commuting consumed all of my time. I had a
| boat I visited once a month (mostly to make sure it still
| floated), hobbies that sat unnoticed for weeks or months at a
| time, and a house and garden that were decaying around me; all
| because I never had time for them. I paid a housekeeper to
| clean and a lawn service to cut the grass. I never liked the
| commute, but I did enjoy the office. Lunch with coworkers,
| happy hour at the bar next to the office, hanging out in the
| cafeteria or someone's office were all enjoyable activities.
|
| I would never trade a single benefit of working from home to
| get them back. Double my salary and a short commute (or a
| chauffeur) might tempt me back for a while (if only because I
| could then pay people to do a lot of the projects I'd otherwise
| put off), but it wouldn't keep me.
|
| Work from home has allowed me to:
|
| - not be distracted if I don't want to be. No one is on a
| speakerphone; there aren't conversations in the hallway; if the
| espresso machine makes noise, it's because I'm using it. Even
| having a private office with a solid, lockable door didn't
| insulate me from office noise the way working from home does
| (yes, there are more dogs barking, children playing, and lawns
| being mowed ... but unless I'm in a meeting those noises aren't
| distracting the way people talking is)
|
| - meet many of my neighbors (helps that they're mostly all
| working from home too)
|
| - spend more time at the marina. Used to be, I could only do
| that on weekends
|
| - work on my house. Used to be, I was too tired when I got
| home, so again limited to weekends
|
| - take a break from work during the day and still be productive
| on something else (housework, hobbies, etc). Before, taking a
| break from work meant a visit to the cafeteria or a chat with a
| coworker. Weeding a garden, washing my car, folding clothes,
| organizing my tools; all of these are fantastic activities for
| thinking up solutions to work problems
|
| - go racing every Wednesday night. Before, if I wanted to be at
| the dock at 5:00, I'd have to leave the office by 3:00. That
| really wasn't possible. Now I leave my house at 4:45 to be
| there on time. This, by far has been the biggest impact ... new
| friends at 36, who knew!
|
| - reclaim two hours of my life from commuting ... sure I could
| have moved closer to the office, but I tried that once and my
| next job just took me that much farther from home
|
| - reclaim my evenings because I'm not exhausted from commuting
|
| - work on my schedule. Aside from meetings, I can mostly work
| when I know I'll be most productive ... either early in the
| morning or late in the evening. And noone cares if I take a nap
| at 2:00 every day
| zmmmmm wrote:
| I get a lot of what you say but this one drives me bonkers:
|
| > able to tap people on the shoulder for quick questions rather
| than having to ping them over chat
|
| My work requires so much focus, having people randomly tap me
| on the shoulder to ask a question they could just drop in chat
| is debilitating.
|
| I'm curious you phrase "having to ping them over chat"
| negatively? I would say the same sentence almost totally in
| reverse:
|
| "Now I no longer have to interrupt people to ask them a
| question, I _can just_ ping them over chat for a reply when
| they are ready "
| gaoshan wrote:
| Our work is very collaborative and being able to get quick
| feedback on some issue is nice.
|
| Having to ping them over chat is annoying because while it
| may result in a quick answer it may also just disappear into
| the ether (or the chat app fails to deliver, the person steps
| away but you don't know this, etc.).
|
| Again, our work is collaborative and if someone wants to be
| left alone they throw on headphones in which case everyone
| knows to just ping them over chat so they can respond
| whenever is convenient for them.
| tikhonj wrote:
| It sounds like you're saying that work can't be
| collaborative _without_ people interrupting each other with
| no warning, but that isn 't my experience at all--my
| experience has been that the most collaborative work
| happens when people are _intentional_ about how and when
| they communicate, which seems easier to encourage in a
| remote setting.
| justrudd wrote:
| If I may, what industry do you work in that needs this
| level of collaboration and such a quick turnaround on it?
|
| I agree with you that it can be nice. But in thinking back
| on my career, I've never been in an industry that needed it
| (beyond dealing with operational events).
| loganfrederick wrote:
| For me the right middle ground was the collaborative
| coffee break. Different team members or even departments
| spend ten minutes walking or lounging in the kitchen, and
| that's where comradery and spontaneous ideas and
| collaboration can happen, without it disrupting the big
| chunks of flow in the day. This I do miss working from
| home.
| stevage wrote:
| Absolutely, that was the worst part of office working. I've
| worked from home for 5 years now and love that part.
| pmontra wrote:
| IMHO no even if I've been working from home since 2006 when I
| became self employed.
|
| What's broken is having to go to the office every single day. In
| my experience before and after starting to work from home there
| is an absolute need to work face to face either to create some
| bonds between the team members or with a customer or in those
| rare phases when you have to create something and you need to go
| full speed with brainstorming sessions, talk to people etc. In
| those cases a physical presence is much more efficient that
| remote communications.
| notyourwork wrote:
| Our team has started monthly in-person get togethers. We
| recently went kayaking and had dinner after. Each month we pick
| someone to plan the next month's activities and use this as a
| way to bond and realize we are people, not just online aliases.
| It's worked pretty well now that vaccines and such are readily
| available and people are becoming more comfortable with in
| person stuff.
| marcusverus wrote:
| Someone is going to pay for that increased efficiency--either
| your Employer will pay in dollars, or you will pay some
| opportunity cost. Why should you pay?
|
| After all, there are plenty of things that you could do in your
| spare time that would make you a more efficient employee. But
| you wouldn't let your employer tell you to work unpaid for an
| hour each Monday, preparing for the week. Nor would you let
| them require that you spend an unpaid hour of your free time
| reading or doing professional development each week. The only
| difference between those things and commuting is that we've all
| been conditioned (not in any nefarious way, just by the reality
| of work in the past) to consider a commute a _hard requirement_
| to have a job. But it 's not anymore.
|
| Your time is a commodity. Why give it away?
| KronisLV wrote:
| > Nor would you let them require that you spend an unpaid
| hour of your free time reading or doing professional
| development each week.
|
| Depending on how you look at things, this may or may not be
| necessary to be done on your own accord in your free time to
| avoid your skills getting dated and irrelevant.
|
| Essentially, you do have to keep up with at least some of the
| new developments within the industry to remain employable,
| especially if you don't have any of the FAANG companies on
| your resume.
|
| While your employer might not necessarily expect you to do
| it, you might have to do that in your own interest, without
| getting paid for it.
| marcusverus wrote:
| We're in total agreement--that was probably not a great
| example.
| KronisLV wrote:
| Apart from that, this is a really nice way to put it:
|
| > Your time is a commodity. Why give it away?
|
| These things aren't even considered most of the time in
| regards to commute or other practices in the corporate
| world, just because they're "the normal".
| alchemism wrote:
| I do that reading and skill-training for unrelated tech
| things on the company's dime, not mine. They are paying me
| highly to be a professional.
| codegeek wrote:
| "What's broken is having to go to the office every single day."
|
| Exactly. The whole remote thing has become kinda like a zero
| sum game and has 2 sides to it. One that believes it should be
| remote anywhere for anyone vs the other that is very rigid and
| wants people in office all the time. The answer is somewhere in
| the middle and hybrid.
|
| Flexibility to work from home 2-3 days a week would be awesome
| while you can still come to office if you want to
| meet/collaborate in person. yes, this rules out people who are
| not in the same state/country (I have a lot to say about that)
| but I am ok with that.
| dboreham wrote:
| I worked for a couple of years in an organization where we
| all worked remotely but met up for 2-3 days in some
| convenient city (e.g. where one or two team members already
| lived) for brain storming sessions 2-3 times a year; and also
| at trade shows/conferences, where we sent probably more team
| members than was necessary but it was justifiable because the
| event doubled as a f2f team session.
| nanis wrote:
| > Is Going to the Office a Broken Way of Working?
|
| No, it is not. I recommend trying to understand "The
| F-Connection: Families, Friends, and Firms and the Organization
| of Exchange"[1].
|
| Firms consist of humans. Humans need human connections. One
| frequently finds a new job due to a connection with a friend.
| And, while you don't have to love everyone you work with, one
| does develop (or used to develop) friendships at work. Or, on the
| way to work. Or, during lunch break.
|
| When everyone lives in their little pod and only connect with
| work over video conferencing, their very human connection to
| other people in their firm weakens.
|
| I understand this is appealing to people who are only familiar
| with living in a bedroom community, hopping on the company bus
| every morning where they stare at their laptop screens, go to the
| company campus and not interact with the outside world, and
| repeat the same trip in the other direction in the evening.
|
| Unfortunately for the rest of us, people who just want to live in
| their own pods seem to have the power to determine our destiny.
|
| _sigh_
|
| [1]: https://www.jstor.org/stable/1972655
| Ancalagon wrote:
| I'm gonna go against the HN grain here and, despite having been
| fully for remote work for the first year or so of the pandemic,
| come out and say that life has really gotten a lot more
| repetitive and frankly disappointing since covid and the death of
| the office. I kind of miss meeting people in the office.
|
| I was in the unfortunate position of having moved to a new city
| for a new tech job where I knew nobody just seven months before
| the pandemic began and everything was shut down. I was making
| many friends both inside and outside the office before that time,
| but during and since the lockdowns I just feel like socializing
| has become so much harder and my days are just blurred together
| computer screens. I guess at this point I'm an extroverted
| introvert, whereas most of HN is very introverted or has pre-
| existing families/friends to socialize with.
|
| My company is hybrid at the moment and I'm actually writing this
| from the very empty office. Things just aren't the same.
| lamontcg wrote:
| Sounds like the problem is that our social involvement outside
| of work is totally broken and we make our lives revolve around
| our work, and think that's entirely normal.
| cbtacy wrote:
| mic drop
| Gibbon1 wrote:
| I actually like working in my office. However.
|
| My commute to the office is 10 minutes. We have actual offices
| with doors. So the whole experience is civilized and low
| stress.
|
| My theory is what wrong with offices today has everything to do
| with managers need to exert power and feel in control. And
| things being run for the convenience of upper managers. They
| all live close to work, have offices with doors. None of this
| actually considers the companies bottom line. Seriously you pay
| an code monkey a shitload of money then have him work under the
| worst work environment short of running heavy machinery next to
| them.
| taurath wrote:
| I think you're correct, but one thing that is really missing
| nowadays, especially with phones and the internet, is active
| communities that exist in real life outside of work. Stuff like
| the elks lodge, rotary, bowling leagues, etc are just not as
| common anymore as I believe they used to be. Certainly there
| are many things that exist, but in a way societally it seems
| like they don't have very much cache, even as far as for people
| to opine "only very lonely people go to those".
|
| I tend to think its a good thing for people to have a bit more
| distance from work, but if we don't figure out ways to fill in
| that social need, societally, people will find themselves
| feeling even more isolated than they have been.
| ghaff wrote:
| They exist. They're just not your almost stereotypical,
| mostly working class, traditional organizations.
|
| Depending upon age and interests, at least larger cities have
| options and, as you get involved, more options get opened up.
| Ancalagon wrote:
| This is the other point I wanted to make (but frankly I was
| too scared that maybe it's just because I suck at meeting
| people now that I haven't socialized like a normal person in
| a year). It just seems harder to meet people _in general_
| than it did even two years ago. Like where is everybody? Does
| everyone stay home literally all the time now?
| raisedbyninjas wrote:
| We've been staying home for well over a year now. Virtually
| all shopping is delivered and have eaten at a restaraunt
| once I think. Our work as had one outdoor happy hour that I
| would have gone to, except for non-pandemic issues. I've
| been blown away at the recent movie box office ticket
| sales. Maybe the covid blase people are going out 50% more
| often than they did pre-pandemic.
| kaesar14 wrote:
| You'd be an extreme outlier in almost any city or town in
| America for this attitude, at this point in the pandemic
| dan-robertson wrote:
| If you're in the US, I think your attitude is basically
| just extremely unrepresentative of the general
| population.
| void_mint wrote:
| > It just seems harder to meet people _in general_ than it
| did even two years ago. Like where is everybody? Does
| everyone stay home literally all the time now?
|
| The pandemic is probably a bigger deal to others than it is
| to you.
| snek_case wrote:
| From what I'm seeing it's kind of a chicken and egg
| problem. A lot of people are happy/eager to return to
| normal, but there aren't a lot of events, there are still
| restrictions in place, and people are no longer used to
| seeing people as much. I include myself in that. I'd like
| to go to events, but I don't really spend much time
| looking for them, because I assume said events aren't
| happening.
| renewiltord wrote:
| No. People are more eager than ever to meet. I have made
| more friends than ever before.
|
| However, I definitely give new people who are ubermaskers a
| bit of a wide berth mostly out of respect for them.
| snek_case wrote:
| Can I ask which country you live in and what type of
| place you go to meet people these days?
| renewiltord wrote:
| I live in San Francisco, CA in the USA.
|
| I have expanded through the friends I made at my first
| job and through my uni friends and I have a few through
| my hobbies: ceramics, weightlifting, bicycling, soccer.
| IggleSniggle wrote:
| Well, yes. If not "everyone," certainly lots and lots of
| folks are just staying home whenever possible. Because we
| are in the middle of a global pandemic.
|
| I think this has much more to do with "we are in a global
| pandemic" than "you can't meet people doing remote work."
| Certainly, there were a number of larger groups that I used
| to hang out with consistently pre-pandemic, but now have
| totally abandoned. I'm not interested in maintaining an
| online relationship with those groups; their value to me
| was in the face-to-face moments.
|
| But that's just not a thing right now.
|
| I'm certainly not going to go out of my way to expose my
| family to people who may or may not even believe in
| vaccinating themselves.
| bserge wrote:
| "wE aRe iN tHe MidDlE oF a GlObAl PaNdEmIc"
|
| Man, fuck off. Sick to the bone of this shit. Where's
| that massive solar flare to show us real fucking
| problems. Not a manmade retarded response to a pathetic
| virus.
|
| Edit: and you, piece of shit going through old comments
| and downvoting everything. I see you. You're pathetic. At
| least flag something.
| void_mint wrote:
| We are in the middle of a global pandemic. I'm sorry this
| reality upsets you.
| bserge wrote:
| No, the middle is far behind.
| dan-robertson wrote:
| I think it is, on average, incorrect to say that people
| are staying home for fear of the pandemic which is what I
| think you are suggesting. I think the average hn reader
| probably skews much more cautious about coronavirus, much
| better able to remain indoors, and much more, for want of
| a better phrase, socially responsible than the average
| person. And even among hn readers plenty will not be
| staying at home much.
|
| That said, I think there are pandemic-adjacent reasons
| people might be doing less socialising. Maybe people you
| might socialise with have moved away and not been
| replaced in the last two years. Maybe the people who
| would organise events you would go to skew more towards
| the cautious end. Maybe people are less interested in
| social things due to other upheavals in their lives.
| Maybe people have forgotten how to socialise. Maybe they
| are focusing on the relationships they had before more
| than anything new. Maybe we just forget how hard things
| were before and look at the past with rose-tinted
| spectacles.
| sim_card_map wrote:
| Life has always been normal here in Sweden.
|
| No lockdowns, mask mandates, restaurants have always been
| open. And no excess deaths.
|
| So don't speak for everyone.
| IggleSniggle wrote:
| I made a _point_ to only speak for myself, my own
| situation, and subjective but certainly true "lots and
| lots of people," whereas the person I was replying to
| spoke in generalities.
| pshc wrote:
| Sweden had quite a few excess deaths compared to Finland
| and Norway. What do you mean by this?
| the-smug-one wrote:
| Uuhm, you're also wrong on life just being "normal".
| Sweden did have quite a few restrictions, just not as
| many or as heavy as their neighbors.
| smt88 wrote:
| > _And no excess deaths._
|
| False[1][2][3][4][5]. Sweden had 7.7% higher mortality in
| 2020 than it averaged from 2016-2019.
|
| By comparison, Sweden's closest neighbors
| (geographically, demographically, and socioeconomically)
| had _far, far lower_ mortality because of lockdowns, mask
| mandates, and closing restaurants[3][4].
|
| > "Sweden, with a COVID-19 attributed death rate of 0.54
| per 1000 population as of July 5, has a higher death rate
| compared with its neighbours: 11.5x compared with Norway
| (0.05 deaths per 1000 population), 5.1x compared with
| Denmark (0.10 deaths per 1000 population), and 9.1x
| compared with Finland (0.06 deaths per 1000
| population)."[1]
|
| Even more damning: we now know that Sweden
| _intentionally_ allowed the virus to spread and never
| believed their own words about people behaving
| responsibly without mandates[5]. They knew that their
| lack of action would kill people.
|
| You can argue all you want that some of those deaths are
| a fair price to pay to eat at restaurants, but you can't
| argue that they didn't happen or that no one could have
| prevented them.
|
| 1. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/14034948
| 209802...
|
| 2. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-
| europe...
|
| 3. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-95699-9
|
| 4. https://www.science.org/content/article/it-s-been-so-
| so-surr...
|
| 5. https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/12/22/sweden-
| coronavirus-covi...
| ipaddr wrote:
| https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/08/05/8993
| 658...
|
| This is what it looked like after the first wave. Belgium
| was the leader worldwide by large numbers. Sweden was
| 5th.
|
| Fast forward to today:
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_death_r
| ate...
|
| Sweden is now ranked at 45. Better than Italy, UK, Spain,
| France which are better countries to compare Sweden
| against. Sweden is the hub of Northern Europe and the
| rate in Finland or Norway doesn't make a great
| comparison.
| magicalist wrote:
| Notably Sweden introduced a number of restrictions after
| that first wave. For instance, GGP is right that
| restaurants weren't closed down...but they couldn't be
| full, your party had to be small, and you wouldn't be
| there at night.
| kaczordon wrote:
| Meanwhile Belgium had around 20% excess deaths and much
| much stricter lockdowns. Most of Sweden's excess deaths
| occurred in nursing homes, which weren't protected
| enough; it had nothing to do with regular people eating
| at restaurants and everything to do with the protocol at
| those specific places. It's quite obvious that lockdowns
| have dubious effects(if any) while the harms and
| detriment to society never seem to be measured or are
| dismissed flippantly as people _just_ wanting to eat out.
| smt88 wrote:
| If your theory about the deaths being in nursing homes
| were true, we wouldn't have seen excess deaths in 2020 in
| age groups under 75.
|
| That was not the case[1]. Even 50-year-olds in Sweden had
| a spike of deaths in 2020.
|
| Norwegians were locked down and seem to be fine. They're
| not dead, at least.
|
| 1.
| https://academic.oup.com/eurpub/article/31/1/17/5968985
| kaczordon wrote:
| It's not a _theory_ , 50% of all COVID deaths were in
| nursing homes:
|
| https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-
| sweden-co...
|
| Also the paper you linked agrees with me, _The highest
| age groups, i.e. ages 80 and above, were most strongly
| affected by the pandemic._
| jokethrowaway wrote:
| Is freedom worth a few deaths? Sure
| sampo wrote:
| > And no excess deaths.
|
| Euromomo shows excess mortality for Sweden for both the
| spring 2020, and the winter 2020-2021:
|
| https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps#z-scores-by-
| country
| savant_penguin wrote:
| I just looked at graphs and it looks so incredibly mild
| compared to the rest of Europe (especially spain*)
| mmmpop wrote:
| Why? Vaccinated people carry the virus too. Or do you
| just not want to expose them to "those kind of people"?
| Please clarify.
| stefs wrote:
| vaccinated people may carry the virus, but they're a lot
| less infectious than un-vaccinated.
| idiotsecant wrote:
| While getting vaccinated is a massively good idea both
| for the individual and society it does appear to be the
| case that people who are vaccinated or were diseased and
| recovered and have antibodies that way that are exposed
| to delta virus can nonetheless develop high viral loads,
| high enough to be contagious to people who are not
| immune. It does appear that in vaccinated or otherwise
| immune people the viral load drops very quickly.
|
| So it's not quite as simple as people with an axe to
| grind will claim it is, but it is possible for a
| vaccinated person to briefly have the same viral load as
| an unvaccinated person. The duration of that dangerous
| period is much shorter when vaccinated, and of course the
| risk to the vaccinated person is much, much lower.
| SergeAx wrote:
| Is there a scientific research on that matter? How much
| is "lot less"?
| IggleSniggle wrote:
| First off, if you're not vaccinated, it's really a lot
| less safe _for you_ for me to be around you. I don 't
| really want to be responsible for getting you or _your_
| family sick.
|
| But beyond that, if I can't trust you to take very basic
| precaution of vaccinating, can I trust you to take the
| much more obnoxious precaution of masking up, or the
| still more inconvenient precaution of social distancing
| generally? Or quarantining after travel? True, I was
| using a shorthand heuristic that is almost certainly
| flawed in the specific. Some people cannot get vaccines.
|
| I haven't done any research on it, so I may be wrong, but
| I also _assume_ that if you have antibodies to fight off
| an infectious disease, the disease is statistically more
| likely to exist in lesser concentrations than in a person
| who does not have those antibodies, if it exists at all.
| baud147258 wrote:
| > Because we are in the middle of a global pandemic.
|
| Really? Maybe I forgot because here in France it feels
| like we've kinda gone back to business as usual, as long
| as one can show proof of vaccination (necessary if you
| want to go to the restaurants, cinemas and museums).
| jdavis703 wrote:
| People are definitely staying home more. I live in what was
| once a bustling night life district. It is far less
| bustling now.
|
| I also feel people are sticking more to their core friends
| and family groups, and venturing out to meet new people
| less. But that's more of a personal feeling than something
| I have quantitatively observed.
| jokethrowaway wrote:
| Are there still restrictions where you live?
|
| I didn't go anywhere while masks were still required.
| It's annoying and, sure, I'm sorry for your small
| business (a nearby business wrote a sign "come and eat
| here or we'll starve") but I won't bother covering my
| face just to buy something I can order online, helping my
| friend Jeff Bezos in the process.
|
| Same with holidays, I'm not coming to your country to
| relax if I have to wear a mask.
|
| Now that masks are not required in my country I go out as
| much as I did before.
| laurent92 wrote:
| Yes. Another reason is, Covid had polarized people. Not
| only health-wise about "the vax", but also politically.
| Spending many more lonely hours during lockdowns,
| rehearsing thoughts, drip-fed by social media and news
| outlets, witnessing all the extreme behavior of "the other
| camp" (whichever camp you are in) did wonders in being
| disgusted of meddling again. With polarization, it's
| difficult to meddle.
|
| There's a reason why social isolation is used as
| punishment, even in carceral locations. We're just getting
| out of it at a _societal_ level.
| faangthrowawa wrote:
| This basically pushed me into a depressive spiral last
| year. Spent months wondering if I was just broken or not
| meant to be social. Even started picking up incredibly
| unhealthy habits to compensate.
|
| I think my issue isn't WFH, or virtual socialisation (which
| I was already doing 2-3 times per week to keep in touch
| with high school friends). The problem is both. 16 hours a
| day in front of a computer just didn't feel human.
|
| Given the choice, I will never work from home again. Even
| at work I have a rule of no more than 4-5 hours in front of
| a screen.
| ipaddr wrote:
| People don't want to get covid. Getting close to large
| groups or new groups feels unsafe. Going out unnecessary
| feels socially unacceptable.
| orangecat wrote:
| _Going out unnecessary feels socially unacceptable._
|
| This is silly if you're vaccinated and not in an
| unusually high risk group.
| dan-robertson wrote:
| I think it's not a question of what is rational but of
| how one feels and how one's social circle feels.
| orangecat wrote:
| Very true. We're at a bizarre point where for large
| segments of the population, the actual and self-perceived
| risks are exactly reversed.
| snek_case wrote:
| Personally, I'm vaccinated and I feel pretty safe. I'd
| like to resume a more normal way of life. It's just that
| there's nothing happening. There's no office, no happy
| hour or hanging out after work. Very few dinner or coffee
| invitations. No meetups. No going out dancing. Just way
| less events in general.
|
| > Going out unnecessary feels socially unacceptable.
|
| Human beings are social creatures and it's normal that we
| have a need to see people and connect. The directive to
| self-isolate has been very detrimental for a lot of
| people's mental health. I'm privileged enough to have
| access to a therapist, but I feel like I'm kind of on the
| edge of depression, very apathetic about life.
|
| I don't want to make this a political discussion, it's
| hard to balance self-sacrifice vs the greater good, but
| we've all sacrificed a lot considering this disease has
| killed about 6.2 people per ten thousand over the last 18
| months, whereas about 200 people per ten thousand would
| have died otherwise. Are we going to keep this up for
| several more years? What's the impact on our society
| going to be?
| bserge wrote:
| Local hackerspaces have been closed for months. Meetups
| online only. Why would I not be 2000km away? Good fucking
| job.
| amznthrwaway wrote:
| In most areas, hackerspaces are open again.
|
| But I also fully understand that you are lying, and that
| you know you are lying.
|
| Sadly, right-wing lies are allowable and considered high
| quality content by Daniel Gackle. Daniel Gackle's last
| interaction with me consisted of him not knowing what he
| was talking about, then straight-up slandering me.
|
| He's a piece of shit, and his mother should be fucking
| ashamed of the dishonest and immoral pile of dung she
| raised.
| amznthrwaway wrote:
| I don't want to make this a personal attack, but go fuck
| yourself, you mentally weak, pathologically dishonest
| little piece of shit.
|
| There's plenty to do if you want to go do it. Even in
| places with restrictions, there are tons of things to do.
|
| So quit whining, you absolutely worthless piece of dog
| shit.
| bserge wrote:
| No wonder everyone seems more of an asshole than usual.
| Great society we're building. Really future proof. /s
| halfmatthalfcat wrote:
| What's the point of society if not to stress test it?
| Humanity won't be able to rest on its laurels forever. If
| it's not some local natural predator trying to kill us
| (animal, virus, etc), it'll be some extraterrestrial
| species next. We need to go through periods like this to
| adapt and become stronger. God forbid humans go through a
| couple years of reduced contact. If we can't do and
| society is really that fragile, that we deserve to get
| wiped out.
| ryanSrich wrote:
| At least where I live you can't do much without wearing a
| mask, including being outdoors within 6 feet of people.
| This likely has A LOT to do with it.
| MattGaiser wrote:
| Or retreated to already known communities. I've spent far
| more time chatting with acquaintances this year than ever
| before.
| noir_lord wrote:
| I have a bunch of friends on IRC, we generally hang out in a
| single channel (it spun out of a topic specific channel but
| we sorta moved to been adjacent years ago).
|
| That acts as my digital water cooler since I'm remote
| forever.
| idiotsecant wrote:
| IRC is becoming the HAM radio of our generation. Pretty
| soon there will just be a bunch of crusty old men who do it
| as a hobby but insist how vital and relevant it is.
| IggleSniggle wrote:
| Relatedly, I think this is part of what fuels more extreme
| social groups. If you don't have rotary/bowling/church/golf
| whatever group that you hang out with in real life, and
| you've got nothing else, then when you finally find a group
| they will be _more likely_ to be a group that by its very
| nature has a stronger set of convictions; enough so that it
| overcomes the social norms and inertia and gathers in-person.
| geofft wrote:
| Aren't lodges, churches, and golf clubs kind of the
| stereotypical examples of race- and class-exclusionary
| groups?
|
| I suppose it's not exactly a _strong_ set of convictions if
| you 're passively going along with broader social pressures
| to segregate on race and class, but if we're talking about
| the health of society (which I think we're implicitly
| doing), I think segregating on worldview is actually a
| whole lot healthier.
| mastazi wrote:
| Keen golfer here, I don't blame you, your vision of golf
| is very wide spread and it is a stereotype based on how
| golf works in some places. Like all stereotypes, it is
| based on a partial truth, but there is more to golf than
| that.
|
| There are several countries, (including Scotland where
| golf was born), where golf clubs are on average very
| affordable and most golf courses, including some of the
| best and most famous ones, are public courses (you can go
| and walk your dog or do whatever, there is no fence)[1]
| Scotland is not the only country where public courses are
| popular[2], but it's the most talked about example, due
| to golf being born there.
|
| Even in countries where golf is usually associated with
| "social status", like the USA, things are slowly
| changing, there are golf courses that aim to integrate
| with the local communities [3][8] and golfers that
| promote a more inclusive way of practicing the
| sport[4][5][6].
|
| On a separate note, there are also efforts to make golf
| courses more environmentally sustainable. Again, Scotland
| leads the way with their courses that are not irrigated,
| and intentionally left to brown-out during summer[1][7],
| and there are also similar efforts in other countries.
|
| [1] Scotland: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icSVHHG8vnE
| &list=PL5vefWGHKL...
|
| [2] In Australia many golf courses have no full time
| staff, and you pay using the "honesty box", those courses
| also usually have unlimited public access (non golfers
| can walk in any time)
| https://australianseniorgolfer.com.au/26181/honesty-box-
| golf...
|
| [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-JIYgZrnrc
|
| [4] https://randomgolfclub.com/
|
| [5] https://thefriedegg.com/
|
| [6] https://good-good.fireside.fm/
|
| [7] https://sustainable.golf/
|
| [8] https://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/what-
| the-futu...
| jdavis703 wrote:
| I don't know much about lodges and golf clubs, but most
| churches are overwhelmingly of one race or another.
| Finding a church that reflects the broader community is
| quite rare, most of the community tends to self-segregate
| on Sunday mornings.
|
| That said, growing up churches seemed fairly class-
| integrated (I'm atheist now, maybe this has changed?).
| But growing up we had everyone from an American Football
| quarterback on a multi-million dollar contract to working
| class folks in the same room.
| ethbr0 wrote:
| Most of the larger lodges (Loyal Order of Moose, Modern
| Woodmen of America, Benevolent and Protective Order of
| Elks) were explicitly sexist (male only) and racist
| (white only). Although some operated female-open
| auxiliary organizations.
|
| Freemasonry is interesting, in that it actually had a
| schism in part over exclusionary membership clauses
| around 1877 (Regular vs Continental). Although
| apparently, masonry itself forbids discussion of religion
| or politics during its meetings.
|
| But much of the early lodge structure and exclusion has
| since been rewritten and broadened, as the majority of
| them were founded in the 1870s - 1910s, when prevailing
| social attitudes were themselves much more sexist and
| racist.
|
| (Interesting, a majority were operated for the purpose of
| effectively providing their membership a social safety
| net and insurance, both of which were lacking in
| government terms at the time!)
| IggleSniggle wrote:
| I see your point, but I think it goes the other way.
|
| Churches et al are microcosms of a geographic community,
| resulting in greater localized diversity of thought. And
| these groups can either lead or hold back a community
| along the lines of race- and class-exclusion. The church
| I grew up with was the very first institution in my life
| that had an openly homosexual person in a position of
| power (the rector, in charge of the local church).
|
| Point being, the exclusionary aspect of these
| institutions is often a reflection of the communities
| they exist within. Certainly clubs are self-grouping
| communities, with their own sets of exclusionary
| rules...and some clubs were and are quite explicit in
| their exclusions: anything that is pay-to-play is largely
| going to have an element of class-exclusion, whether you
| pay at the door or whether you pay with something you can
| "show" (eg being able to read Latin, being a great
| classical musician, etc). Certainly many clubs have been
| race- exclusionary, at times intentionally ("keep those
| people out!") and other times unintentionally ("wait you
| don't know about X??").
|
| But just because these groups exhibited these exclusions,
| I don't think it necessarily follows that segregating by
| worldview is healthier than segregating by geographic
| region.
| ethbr0 wrote:
| My childhood Southern Baptist church (irregularly
| attented, around holidays visiting family) had a female
| pastor.
|
| Eventually, the Southern Baptist Convention got around to
| noticing, and told them that wasn't allowed. They could
| either fire the pastor, or they'd lose SBC funding.
|
| ... to which the church replied that they were founded in
| 1804, liked their pastor just fine, and that the SBC
| could go have a talk with the devil, and take their money
| with them.
|
| :) So yes, it depends on the church.
| idiotsecant wrote:
| There are certainly exceptions but the vast majority of
| the largest churches in the US are very homogeneous, more
| so than the communities they are a part of. There are
| some groups, for example the Seventh Day Adventists and
| Jehovah's witnesses that seem to buck this trend but your
| average Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, Jewish, Mormon,
| etc congregations tend to be very homogeneous.
| ipaddr wrote:
| If you live in a big city this isn't true for big tent
| religions. Catholic churches have a variety of different
| people from South American, East Asian, Italian, French,
| Irish.
| ugh123 wrote:
| I thought thats what Meetup was about, for both tech and non-
| tech communities. I haven't been involved for a while due to
| life changes (kids + relo), so not sure if its as vibrant in
| some cities as it used to be.
| BoorishBears wrote:
| I literally never saw a Meetup group last for more than a
| year.
|
| The closest thing to an exception was a group that existed
| a decade then happened to get a Meetup for convenience, and
| they closed within a year of getting on (for unrelated
| reasons)
| perlpimp wrote:
| It seems that to participate in group activities you have to
| bring friends you have nowadays instead of going out and
| making friends. My view might be wrong.
| spbaar wrote:
| truth. went to a gyms happy hour and me and a girl were
| there alone otherwise everyone else went off in their
| groups of 3 or 4 they knew already lol.
| throwawaysea wrote:
| Can you demystify what an elks lodge is? I've never really
| understood the concept of these lodges and they seem like
| some kind of closed off private club or something cult like.
| I'm guessing I have the wrong perception.
| ironman1478 wrote:
| There is a book on this topic called "bowling alone" if you
| are interested. These observations are ones people were
| making pre-covid.
| ethbr0 wrote:
| I was going to recommend that as well. Am in the process of
| reading it, after a previous recommendation on HN. Or as
| the previous commenter quipped to a similar question 'Yes,
| Robert Putnam identified all these trends by the 80s and
| 90s, but nobody liked how gloomy he was about it.'
|
| Link: https://www.amazon.com/Bowling-Alone-Collapse-
| American-Commu...
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_D._Putnam
| eecc wrote:
| Well, I think one shouldn't compare the sudden curfew/lockdown
| situation determined by COVID with the mores of a finely tuned
| social machine such as the office.
|
| Given enough time, people would start developing routines and
| habits around diffused WFH, invest and fine-tune in facilities
| and services to cater for such a customer base.
|
| Right now we have a lot of stakeholders that just held their
| breath hoping for a quick return to "normality".
|
| Indeed, a different organization of our urban spaces would
| drastic reduce CO2 emissions and land consumption. We should
| think of it in terms of a sudden opportunity to overcome a
| local minimum we were stuck in, and search for a new optimum.
| soylentnewsorg wrote:
| Here's the thing though: you should not socialize with anyone
| at the office. The healthiest thing anyone can do for their
| career is to not mix work and friends. Once you're friends,
| you're sharing political opinions, life stories, and religious
| views. People pick up on that, and while you might be pleasing
| one guy, you're pissing off someone else. No matter your stance
| on something, you're going to be pissing off someone.
|
| Work is for work - not a social life. Yes, it's easy to make
| friends at work because like in middle school, you're forced
| together and don't need to break the ice. Very tempting - very
| bad for the career.
|
| What is good for both the career and getting friends is
| maintaining contact with compatible people from the office once
| you're out of there, and becoming friends with those people.
| That works.
|
| Now, as far as missing simple human contact while you're at the
| office - I fully understand that. The problem is, you're forced
| into that human contact. That's probably healthy, but here's
| what I do: take a trip for groceries every other day and buy
| things fresh. Walk around, look for deals, take a full hour.
| Believe it or not, that alone is enough, as long as you keep
| doing it. The best part of being remote is you can do that
| smack in the middle of the day, take a little break from work
| and break that day up into two smaller parts - not when you're
| tired after a workday.
|
| I do live with my wife though, so maybe don't need as much
| human contact. But using work for socializing in the office -
| ugh.
| jokethrowaway wrote:
| I think this made more sense in the past when people were
| holding onto a job for 15 years or maybe jobs in which you
| won't be able to find an alternative.
|
| Nowadays, jobs in tech rarely last more than 4 years and the
| worst that can happen is that you get a salary increase and
| change job.
|
| I wouldn't skip on work socialisation just out of fear.
|
| It's a nice perk to have.
| hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
| To each their own, but to be honest I'm always baffled, and
| quite saddened, by this "don't make friends at work"
| "advice".
|
| I've made many, many friends at work, and this near-paranoia
| level of "you might be pissing off someone else" - so what? I
| don't need, or want, to be friends with everyone, and I'm
| quite fine if some people don't like me.
| long_time_gone wrote:
| I fear it's another example of "optimizing" away something that
| made us more human (in this case, more in-person interaction).
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| It is optimizing away time and resources wasted commuting. If
| people wanted to interact in person, they can do things in
| their community outside of work.
| Ancalagon wrote:
| Yeah this is another fear I have as well. Lots of the social
| interactions that made life better (albeit more difficult in
| some ways), were kind of automated away: dating, irl friends,
| etc.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| Your perspective is actually very common: Working from home
| isn't for everyone and we should stop pretending like it's the
| only way to work. A lot of people dislike remote work. Many
| people like remote work but can't handle it for various
| reasons.
|
| Internet forums like HN will always overrepresent preferences
| for remote work because they're biased toward people who enjoy
| socializing over the internet. Most people don't go online and
| engage in random discussions. They do it in person, and they
| like it that way. A random sampling of active HN commenters is
| going to be much more enthusiastic about remote work than, say,
| your average junior who relies heavily on organic interactions
| to grow in an organization.
| true_religion wrote:
| I don't think there is any need to defend in person work.
| Until very recently it was the only socially accepted form of
| work.
|
| As the default, we all have a little experience in it.
| snek_case wrote:
| > I don't think there is any need to defend in person work.
|
| There is a need to defend it though. I've already seen
| several businesses claim that remote work is "the future".
| Personally, I feel that remote work has been very
| detrimental to my mental health and I hate it. I don't want
| that future. It feels very unhealthy.
| nsonha wrote:
| it's easy to blame the mode of working to be an obstacle to
| employees' growth, including juniors, but it's also very
| likely that managers and the person themselves have not
| learnt or guided to optimize for this new way of work.
|
| Collectively we should work on this first before jumping the
| conclusion "all juniors lose out on remote" or smt. Remote
| gives you a lot more freedom and telling juniors that it isnt
| for them is kind of gatekeeping.
| eunoia wrote:
| Very similar situation, relocated to the Bay for work a few
| months before the first shelter in place.
|
| It's been rough. Don't have any real advice, but at least know
| you're not alone.
|
| Edit: I think it's important to focus on where we go from here.
| And at least to me that actually means more remote. I would
| rather be able to work remotely from amongst my existing
| support network than attempt to roll back the clock to a pre-
| COVID style of office work.
|
| To each their own.
| outworlder wrote:
| > I'm gonna go against the HN grain here and, despite having
| been fully for remote work for the first year or so of the
| pandemic, come out and say that life has really gotten a lot
| more repetitive and frankly disappointing since covid and the
| death of the office. I kind of miss meeting people in the
| office.
|
| There's a big difference between 'remote work' and 'forced to
| work from home due to a global pandemic'.
| void_mint wrote:
| > I'm gonna go against the HN grain here and, despite having
| been fully for remote work for the first year or so of the
| pandemic, come out and say that life has really gotten a lot
| more repetitive and frankly disappointing since covid and the
| death of the office. I kind of miss meeting people in the
| office.
|
| I'm sorry you're having a tough time with it. That sounds
| really unpleasant.
|
| > My company is hybrid at the moment and I'm actually writing
| this from the very empty office. Things just aren't the same.
|
| Ignoring the pandemic, it sounds like the people at your
| company just don't agree that in-person work is necessary for
| them to get what they need out of their employment. The issue
| is either side attempting to force its preferred working
| conditions on the other. aka the solution isn't to make all of
| those people that don't want to be in an office come in again,
| but instead for you to find companies/circles that have people
| with similar interests as you. Being around people that don't
| want to be around you is unpleasant for both sides.
| pineconebutt wrote:
| I agree with you. I worked remotely for two years pre-pandemic.
| Never again.
| ravenstine wrote:
| Have you wondered why your life on its own is repetitive and
| disappointing? Would you be making the same positive statement
| about working in an office if you didn't have the option of
| working remote?
| Ancalagon wrote:
| Yes, I have. I have started to question whether its maybe a
| personality flaw of my own, or a real lack of interest in my
| career choice. All I do know is it feels less fulfilling now
| than it did before the lockdowns.
| onion2k wrote:
| _... has pre-existing families /friends to socialize with._
|
| It's easy to believe the people you work with are friends to
| socialize with, but the reality is that most people cut ties
| with their coworkers as soon as they change job, especially
| early in your career when you're hopping from one job to
| another every few years. Those people are temporary friends at
| best.
|
| I recommend doing everything you can to cultivate friendships
| outside of work.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| > I recommend doing everything you can to cultivate
| friendships outside of work.
|
| More than half of all my friends outside the office started
| out as coworkers in the past. And the remainder are almost
| exclusively people that I met as a result of social
| activities with these 'original' friends.
| [deleted]
| gwright wrote:
| > but the reality is that most people cut ties with their
| coworkers
|
| I dislike this type of comment as it presumes that one
| person's personal experience is "reality" or a reasonable
| representation of what everyone else has experienced.
|
| It assumes that something as complicated as personal
| relationships can be can be distilled down into some sort of
| "average" or "normal" protocol and that if your experience
| doesn't align, then you are an outlier, not-average, not-
| normal.
|
| I don't think the concept of "average" or "normal" is
| particularly useful for something as multi-dimensional as
| establishing personal relationships.
|
| Some of my longest and best friends are people I met in my
| first job after college.
| Aaargh20318 wrote:
| > life has really gotten a lot more repetitive (...) since
| covid and the death of the office.
|
| I agree, and it's awesome.
| nappy-doo wrote:
| How much of this is fixable though if you could have a normal
| social calendar? I don't think current circumstances offer a
| fair comparison.
| closeparen wrote:
| A normal social calendar provides a few hours of interaction
| per week. That's important and healthy, but it's still a lot
| less than 40 hours of ambient presence. I think only sharing
| a household can substitute for that.
| Ancalagon wrote:
| true but I mean its been a year and a half since the first
| lockdowns...this kind of seems like it is the new normal,
| right?
| chrismcb wrote:
| No. It isn't. It will take another six months or a year but
| things will return to much like they were before. With the
| exception of the office. I don't think the office will ever
| be the same
| munificent wrote:
| The Spanish Flu was about three years, but it did end.
| We're not going to be like this forever.
| pvarangot wrote:
| I have a normal social calendar, but using the same desk and
| having to share space between work stuff and hobby stuff is
| getting to me. I could move to a bigger place but that's
| basically taking a paycut, or if it's a cheaper place it will
| mess up my social calendar again.
|
| I don't dislike WFH and I think it has a place. I work on
| embedded devices and now I'm working at Apple on phone stuff.
| That place is not my job, I don't think WFH is any good for
| the teams I'm at and for the stuff I do. Even if I just go to
| the office once per week, that usually involves moving
| multiple devices and cables and tearing down/setting up my
| development setup somewhere else or having to maintain
| duplicate setups. Don't get me started on if I forget or
| don't think I'll need X measuring device or Y adapter cable
| or tool and then I have to hunt for a second one in the
| office or buy one for home.
| tomtheelder wrote:
| My social calendar is almost back to normal. I see friends
| most nights, I do all of my favorite hobbies again. The only
| things I don't do that I used to really are going to large
| events (concerts/sports events) and I travel less frequently
| on planes.
|
| WFH is still incredibly isolating for me. I feel disconnected
| from my work and from my peers. I was remote once before the
| pandemic and felt exactly the same way.
|
| I think most people would describe me as highly extroverted.
| I just don't get enough/diverse enough person to person
| contact to be happy when I'm at home working all day.
| mint2 wrote:
| Wfh really disrupted the days cues that indicate time and serve
| as reminders and habit triggers.
|
| Wfh is great for some people, but I also find it monotonous and
| reduces daily variety amongst a number of other not great
| attributes more work related. My ideal is a 2-3 day in the
| office. Different options work better for different people.
| malandrew wrote:
| You need social hobbies on the weekend. I just wish weekends
| were three days so I got two days for hobbies and one day break
| for rest, errands and other life necessities.
| 09bjb wrote:
| Cramming most socializing into whatever bits of free time are
| left after hobbies seems unlikely to work for most people.
| bradlys wrote:
| Living for the weekend is an extremely draining way to live.
| I fucking hate it.
|
| As it stands - I live for 2-3 hours on Sundays _if_ the
| weather is good because everything is closed and will be
| closed for another 6 fucking months. It 's fucking horrific.
| I have to spend the rest of my week grinding away at
| meaningless drivel.
|
| Imagine actually spending 40+ hours/week around _people_ and
| _enjoying_ a significant amount of your interactions.
| jedberg wrote:
| Isn't that more an effect of your local social scene being shut
| down though, and not lack of commuting to an office?
|
| If all the local bars/clubs/libraries/whatever you like to do
| were open, wouldn't that solve the problem?
| nafix wrote:
| The workplace is a social hub for many people, although it
| seems many on HN don't care to socialize at work much.
| jedberg wrote:
| Sure, but it depends on the company. I've made friends at
| every place I've worked, some lifelong, and I do miss that,
| but on the balance, work never really dominated my social
| life. I always had other friends too.
| throwaway14356 wrote:
| people also hire those who fit the company culture. It's
| important if you are to spend the rest of your life in the
| same room. Better to just hire for skill.
| jdavis703 wrote:
| Not the OP. But some of it also has to do with work life
| balance. If you dedicate yourself to the startup hustle
| there's not really time for bars/clubs/libraries every night
| of the week. But for some reason staying up late, solving
| problems, eating with your coworkers, etc feels like a form
| of socialization. With COVID isolation, it just feels like a
| solo grind (I suspect this is part of why YC is biased
| against solo founders).
| HWR_14 wrote:
| If you're new to an area, often coworkers will help introduce
| you to local bars/clubs/libraries/whatever. Not that you
| might like the same ones, but it does start you with a
| baseline you can modify, which is valuable.
| jrockway wrote:
| I always enjoyed the after-work drinking events. Lots of
| people there that I would never call up and ask "hey want to
| go to the bar?" but still enjoyed hanging out with. I guess
| it's not work's job to be your social life, and these after-
| work events exclude people with families or that don't like
| alcohol from valuable interactions... but ignoring the global
| effect, I personally enjoyed them. Now that everyone is
| remote, they don't happen, and you just have to put "fun"
| events on the team calendar. That's more fair, and almost as
| good, but I get why people miss that part of office culture.
| jedberg wrote:
| I did too. But I always felt bad when we made a work
| decision at the bar and then the folks who didn't come out
| with us didn't get a say and had an uphill battle if they
| didn't agree.
| jrockway wrote:
| Yup. I think that it probably falls on the side of "not
| good for the company", so it's not necessarily a bad
| thing that we can't do it anymore.
|
| Honestly, I think we mostly spent our time shit-talking
| people that weren't there, which isn't super healthy.
| dogman144 wrote:
| Definitely makes sense.
|
| A response I can offer you is this, And it's loaded with
| empathy because I def get that people derived real fun from
| it.
|
| A lot of people attended those after-hour drinks as the
| semi-mandatory things they are, either for career survival
| or career acceleration reasons. This was always a large
| background narrative, and the death of it as of now is a
| nice thing. I'd take quarterly team dinners and an 30 min
| zoom with beers any time.
|
| 7am-5pm, and the 5-7pm additions to work life on a often
| weekly basis demands a lot out of people went to them just
| to manage their career.
|
| What frustrates a lot of people, and generates the tone on
| HN perhaps, is that this aspect isn't acknowledged in
| exchange for "but it was my social life!" Your social life
| cut into my real non-work social life (or so the comment
| would go).
| chrismcb wrote:
| Working from home during the pandemic is different than working
| from home during normal times
| jdavis703 wrote:
| I had a remote gig about a year before the pandemic. In some
| regards it was easier. But I always found remote work
| isolating and cross-team collaboration lacking. The isolation
| was semi-fixable with a WeWork. But there's not really a good
| solution a line-level worker can do to improve collaboration
| if other folks don't also want it.
|
| EDIT: I suppose the lack of collaboration could've also been
| company culture. Be cautious when the sample size is small.
| tjr225 wrote:
| I had the same feelings working from home full time prior to
| the pandemic.
|
| The all-company meet ups were the best part about the
| job(other than the pay I guess).
|
| I actually took a job back with my prior employer with the
| hopes I could return to an office in some capacity, but we
| are all remote now. Boo!
| jstx1 wrote:
| Very similar situation here and I absolutely agree with you.
| Remote has been tough. My ideal set-up is fully in office with
| a walkable commute but I don't think it's happening quite yet.
| jlgray wrote:
| This is the thing for me. If your company has a fully-stocked
| kitchen, quality chairs, monitors, adjustable desk, and noise
| cancelling headphones, it might be a comparable to a good
| home office setup in terms of comfort. What kills me though
| is commuting. All told, I spend 3-4 extra hours on days I go
| to the office, and that time comes out of my free time,
| effectively turning a 40 hour job into a 60 hour job.
| agumonkey wrote:
| I think this is gonna be a good re-evaluation of what work /
| office is.
|
| commuting is horrendous for some, workplace social life can be
| too
|
| but for some it's fine and needed
|
| I think it can lead to a rebalancing effect.
| cbtacy wrote:
| It's clearly very hard for folks who have come to rely upon
| their workplace as their venue for social interaction, and
| their co-worker pool as their source for social relationships.
| But to be clear, once upon a time (back in the long long ago),
| it was seen as unhealthy to mix your work relationships and
| your personal friendships. So it's possible for all of us to
| learn how to develop relationships and friendships that don't
| rely upon the forced proximity of an office. Things like shared
| activities, social organizations, etc are a good starting
| point.
| foobiekr wrote:
| I went to the office to work the other day for the first time
| since February 20th, 2020.
|
| It was great. So quiet, open, well lit, great and comfortable
| desk and chair, ..
|
| Obviously, I could improve my home office, but in reality my
| home office is taking space that I otherwise was using before
| 2/20 and now there's a whole space in my home that is allocated
| to being a work station instead of what it was before.
|
| A few other people came in, and it was great to talk in person
| in front of a giant whiteboard.
| dboreham wrote:
| I can't think of a single job I've had where the lighting,
| desk and chair were remotely as good as I have at home.
| faangthrowawa wrote:
| I used to flat share in London with some other people in
| tech. Pandemic WFH setup was the taking turns on the one
| couch (and floor) for a long time.
| ketzo wrote:
| That's fair, but I think you have to acknowledge that the
| total opposite will be true for many, probably most,
| people.
|
| There's a reason that "stop working at the kitchen counter"
| is, like, its own cottage industry of online writing.
| People mostly have _really bad_ wfh setups, even people in
| tech.
| knappe wrote:
| This is not a failure of remote work. :)
|
| When you work remotely you have to be very deliberate with
| socialization as well, since you don't get that for free when
| you're not in the office.
|
| I've been remote for 10+ years and I can assure you that this
| side of things is harder and you have to take deliberate steps
| to build socialization into your schedule. I do this with tech
| meetups, board games and cycling specifically using Meetup to
| attend events.
| nobodyandproud wrote:
| I'm an introvert with a family and I still miss the office. No,
| it's not about getting away from the family.
|
| I never want to fall into a 5 times a week schedule again, but
| I miss the background discussions; commute; and energy that is
| involved in getting ready for work.
| pimterry wrote:
| Coworking is a really great solution to this.
|
| You can have all the human contact and "it's 6pm - want to go
| for a beer?" easy socializing that you get from being in a busy
| office, but simultaneously keep almost all the flexibility and
| the lack-of-constraints of working from home (...almost -
| there's usually an expectation that you wear clothes).
|
| In many ways it's even better than office social contact: it
| decouples that socializing from your job. Want to change
| company, but keep hanging out with the same people every day?
| Want to switch offices and meet a whole new social circle
| without changing jobs? Want to go out from the office for a
| drink after work with your 'colleagues' with no need to avoid
| personal topics or keep things professional with your boss?
|
| It does require leaving the house, but for almost everybody
| there is a coworking space that's significantly quicker to get
| to you than your current office would be. If you're in a major
| urban center, you probably have 10s or 100s to choose from. For
| me, it's a dramatic improvement on both the alternatives.
| stevage wrote:
| I have tried this but struggled to find people in coworking
| spaces that I wanted to socialise with.
|
| The one time it has worked was when friends who worked in the
| same niche sector would sometimes all cowork at a cafe for a
| day. Maybe once a month. That was incredible. We were
| expected to be in our offices most of the time though.
| octodog wrote:
| Fair enough, but there's no guarantee you'll want to
| socialise the people who inhabit your office either. I
| highly respect and value my colleagues but I don't have a
| huge amount of interest in socialising with them either.
| stef25 wrote:
| > Coworking
|
| It's not cheap but I do love it. Nicest offices I've ever
| worked in, never obliged to talk to anyone.
| mmmpop wrote:
| Agreed 100%. My job is 1000 miles away but I have a cohort of
| folks at the coworking space that keep me sane. This is
| probably more like the "future of work" especially in my
| small mountain town.
| odiroot wrote:
| > remote work for the first year or so of the pandemic, come
| out and say that life has really gotten a lot more repetitive
| and frankly disappointing since covid
|
| I'm not surprised, because not only offices "died", but
| everything else did too.
|
| Many people used to work remotely before that. But we always
| could jump out for a lunch with our friends in a restaurant. Or
| take a break and go to the gym. Or meet in board games cafe
| after work, go to the cinema, a swimming pool or wine tasting.
|
| Now, corona made it all go away. It was never about the office
| itself but the whole life as we knew it.
| rationalfaith wrote:
| Hey! Same here! Moved teams in same company and I feel so alone
| it's crazy! Many engineers are introverted and/or already have
| relationships they've built before covid hit. No matter how
| hard a i try to connect through the chat window, in just don't
| get the same reciprocation as I get from face to face.
|
| I've been coming to office to run into more ppl but alas, no
| one comes. So just as you, it's very lonely here and it's hard
| to get attached to work when you haven't met anyone face to
| face.
| crandycodes wrote:
| For me, I never really made friends in the office, but I did
| make friends from the office and my profession from outside of
| the office activities. Conferences, education, meetups, big
| morale events. These things have stopped, for me, since the
| pandemic, so I've not made any new friends this way. I'm full-
| time remote now, and moved away from the west coast, but I
| expect I'll still do conferences and the big morale events.
| I've not explored the meetup scene here, but I am hoping to
| also make some friends doing non-tech activities finally, since
| my new area is less tech focused.
| cwp wrote:
| As others have noted, we're in a pandemic, so everything is
| off. Even in places that don't have lockdowns or mandates,
| people are going to be cautious about socializing.
|
| I'm convinced, though, that when the pandemic fades away, we'll
| see a bifurcation of working styles. The office offers in-
| person relationships, high-bandwidth communication, and a well-
| understood management paradigm, at the cost of forcing
| everybody to live near the office and spend a lot of time
| commuting. Full-remote offers the ability to live anywhere and
| no commutes, but shallower relationships and not-very-well
| understood modes of communication and collaboration. Hybrid
| offers... not much, as far as I can tell. It's the downsides of
| in-office _and_ remote. The best you can say about it is that
| you get to see people in person sometimes and can avoid
| commuting sometimes. :- /
|
| So we'll see a grand sorting where people that want to be
| remote find the companies that will let them do that, and the
| people that want things to go back to normal find the companies
| that also want that. Then the remote companies spend the next
| 50 years learning how to really do distributed work, rather
| than just "like an office, but on Slack and Zoom".
| kemiller wrote:
| I think everyone agrees that being in the office, all things
| being equal, is better for collaborative work. It's just all
| the not-equal externalities (especially commuting and high real
| estate prices near good jobs) that make it suck.
| SergeAx wrote:
| Funny that I am a strong pro-office, but I think that maybe you
| miss people per se, and not particular coworkers. Also lack of
| environment variety, combined with inability to travel.
| LudwigNagasena wrote:
| I think people like you need a new app, something like Tinder
| for lunch. I personally have no will to move to a high cost of
| life area and spend 1+ hour on commune just because my
| coworkers can't find friends.
| AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote:
| Yes, lets make finding casual acquaintances as awful as
| online dating, that's the ticket!
| kace91 wrote:
| Isn't meetup.com a thing worldwide?
|
| Also, the dating app Bumble has an option for friendships,
| and in a pinch tinder itself works if you're super clear
| about your goals
| Ancalagon wrote:
| I fully understand this perspective and agree remote work
| should be the de facto norm. Remote works benefits on a
| productivity and environmental level do seem to outweigh the
| social benefits. I guess I was just commenting how much I
| miss organic interaction with like-minded smart people in the
| office, and how much duller my days have gotten without that.
| auntienomen wrote:
| Coworking is pretty good for this, and going to be amazing
| post-pandemic.
| snek_case wrote:
| The problem you'll find, I think, is that many people will
| try to use "Tinder for lunch" as if it were just tinder.
| dbbk wrote:
| Bumble BFF exists and works fine in my experience
| samjbobb wrote:
| I've been thinking about exactly this!
|
| I really miss the 'low effort' social interactions that in-
| office work provides. "Want to get lunch?" is one of those.
|
| Question: does this app already exist? Can I facilitate this
| in my life without building the app (easy part) and building
| a significant user base (hard part)?
| cvhashim wrote:
| Yeah I think bumble has a feature like that. Just for
| finding friends and such.
| Agingcoder wrote:
| I don't want an app - I like my coworkers and enjoy having
| lunch with them. It's the other, pleasant part of work :
| social interactions with people I know. They are also
| sometimes necessary, ie you will sometimes solve problems
| more efficiently over lunch/coffee than by email / Skype.
|
| Furthermore, not everyone has a 1h+ commute to the office and
| lives in an expensive area - I know plenty of people with
| short commutes.
|
| In the end, it's not 'all remote' or 'all office', we're
| different people in different conditions. There has to be
| room for everyone.
| techwizard81 wrote:
| The point of the person you are replying to is why do you
| need this social interaction with people you barely know
| (because be honest, you don't really know these people)
| versus social interaction with your friends?
| Agingcoder wrote:
| Because if I'm honest, I do know them. I've been working
| for several years at the same place, have made friends,
| had lunch/dinner/beers/coffees, been to weddings, etc.
| Some of them are not friends, but I am happy to see them,
| just like I enjoy talking to my butcher or fruit seller.
|
| Maybe it's an age/cultural thing, but I'm going to spend
| quite a bit of time working, so I'd rather do it with
| people I like. Inevitably, because we like each other,
| we're happy to see each other, hence the office is a good
| place to go to. And if I don't know them yet, there's no
| reason why I shouldn't meet anyone interesting at the
| office.
|
| I also enjoy talking about my work with like minded
| people : not my friends, but co-workers. The best
| conversations happen over beers, coffees, meals, etc
| which require physical interactions.
| techwizard81 wrote:
| Fair enough, I guess it's just different for everybody. I
| personally prefer to get my job done as quickly as
| possible (which is easier without all those interactions)
| so that I can have the time to go spent it with the
| people of my choosing and not people that just happens to
| be next to me.
| xwdv wrote:
| Great, so not only does work provide you with money and
| healthcare, it also has to provide a social circle? Pretty soon
| will we look toward companies to provide us with a suitable
| life partner too? And housing?
|
| The point of remote work is to make your work hours very
| efficient so you have more time away from work to live your
| actual life.
| lkrubner wrote:
| I've said this before on Hacker News, and now I wish to repeat,
| if you live in New York City, I host a once-a-month party,
| mostly for tech people. Very informal. You can get the vibe
| from the photos here:
|
| http://www.smashcompany.com/philosophy/everyone-was-amazing-...
|
| It's simply meant to give people a chance to meet other like
| minded people. Especially in this era of working-from-home it
| is too easy to end up feeling isolated, so hosting a regular
| party like this is, I think, a non-stressful way for people to
| connect.
|
| I mentioned this 78 days ago and 6 people from Hacker News have
| been attending the most recent 3 parties:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27952414
| asdff wrote:
| It depends on the nature of your work imo. Sometimes you need key
| tools or infrastructure that cannot physically be in your home,
| like a mechanic's shop. If you are just working on a computer in
| an office, however, there's no point to ever coming in just to
| work on a computer in this particular location vs your home or
| elsewhere. Internal team meetings seem more productive on zoom
| than dragging everyone into a conference room in my experience.
| Use the commuting hours for your own free time instead instead of
| volunteering them to your employer for free, since in commuting
| out of pocket, you are subsidizing their costs to bring in the
| labor they need to their workplace to do their work for their
| client (note how any contractor will take note of and bill you
| for travel time, but employees are expected to front it
| themselves).
|
| If you work in something more client facing, you'd probably
| benefit a lot more from stuff like in person slide decks in front
| of clients you flew in and are accommodating, and other corporate
| schmoozing and boozing that is just impossible and awkward on
| zoom or any other electronic platform.
| sam0x17 wrote:
| Been remote for 5+ years and I feel more connected with my co-
| workers than I did when I worked 9-5 in an office.
| merpnderp wrote:
| This. While in the office we communicated almost entirely over
| Slack or Discord. Now after being remote 1.5 years, we've never
| been this productive or happy. If we need to collaborate, it's
| a million times better to do a Discord video call and screen
| share, rather than hovering over them at their desk trying to
| read their screen while they lean away trying to avoid your
| coffee breath.
| ghostbrainalpha wrote:
| How much of the day are you on video calls?
| jedberg wrote:
| My friend runs a company that is remote first in the way
| described here. They have employees all over the world, but they
| all get together at some random place on the planet (pre-covid)
| about once every two months.
|
| The employees love it because of all the free trips around the
| world (and often tie their vacation to the beginning or end of a
| meeting so they can explore that place on their own) and it's
| great for the company because they can hire talent all over the
| world.
|
| It also makes their in person time far more productive because
| everyone puts effort into planning that time for effectiveness
| and everyone knows that they only have limited time together and
| have to make the most of it.
| mrtranscendence wrote:
| Interesting idea. Every two months seems like it could be
| prohibitively expensive, though, depending on the org. My
| company has a yearly event that's mandatory for every employee
| throughout the country, and a common complaint is just how much
| it costs to put on. Granted, you could make it cheaper by
| getting rid of the c-list celebrity MC and free drinks, but
| renting a space for 1500 people, paying for travel, getting
| hotel rooms, etc, is all costly.
|
| It's been all virtual for the past two years, and I genuinely
| wonder how much they've saved that way. It's also much more
| bearable for this introvert ... I despise that stupid event and
| resent having to attend. :P
| jedberg wrote:
| The cost of the travel is no more than the cost of an office,
| which they don't have. They basically shift the office budget
| to the travel budget.
| [deleted]
| fernandotakai wrote:
| i worked at company that is remote first and they did a
| company retreat every year (as well as team-focused retreats,
| like engineering, support, C-level).
|
| it was a blast -- you got a week of "free" travel w/ your SO
| (because it was just once a year, they paid for your SO to
| come with you).
|
| i loved it, because it was a time to get together, have some
| drinks, chitchat and do some super productive work.
| mrtranscendence wrote:
| If it was a week long, in a desirable location, and I could
| take my fiancee, I'd be all for it. But it's 1.5 days, no
| SOs, and held in a casino in the ass end of bumfuck
| Indiana. And forget about working -- it's centered around a
| team-building exercise with people from other parts of the
| company you probably don't know and will never talk to
| again.
| dvtrn wrote:
| I understand the "why" of team building, but the "what"
| or "how" the team-building is done often handled in such
| a hackneyed top-down way that I often wonder "if you just
| brought the team together, gave them options on ways to
| spend their time together, would they otherwise choose to
| do the same activities the managers designed for the
| event"?
|
| That's more rhetorical than anything and is a roundabout
| way of saying: _most_ organized team building events are
| just...boring.
|
| It's also just a preference though: getting together and
| just hanging out without the pressure to talk shop or
| participate in some kind of coordinated, planned and
| overly-orchestrated activity is just as engaging for me
| as "escape rooms" or "games" or other "activities".
| iKidA wrote:
| lol was the company 84.51/dunnhumby
| andrewnicolalde wrote:
| These sound like two different sorts of trips, and two
| very different sorts of companies.
| throwaway889900 wrote:
| I imagine OP is talking about a significantly smaller company
| than 1500 people.
| fullshark wrote:
| Being forced to travel somewhere random on the planet every two
| months for work and live out of a hotel room sounds terrible
| frankly. The company would have to spend lavishly and find
| exotic / fun locations I think otherwise I'd resent it and
| quit.
|
| Ultimately the ideal is not a one size fits all solution but
| different companies developing different cultures
| remote/hybrid/in person strategies and employees having
| options. Seems like the big tech companies are all just kind of
| copying each other and no one is trying to really differentiate
| themselves here.
| screye wrote:
| > Being forced to travel somewhere random on the planet every
| two months for work and live out of a hotel room sounds
| terrible frankly. The company would have to spend lavishly
| and find exotic / fun locations I think otherwise I'd resent
| it and quit.
|
| There is always someone huh. Such an arrangement literally
| sounds like the dream remote arrangement to me. It never even
| crossed my mind that there would be people who would say no
| to a fully paid pseudo-vacation every couple of months.
|
| I am completely unable to empathize.
| ZFtdGGXwyWIpKKv wrote:
| You're completely unable to empathize with those of us who
| have families and other commitments outside of work. Being
| forced to travel for work to some faraway "exotic"
| destination is literally the worst thing ever for someone
| who has kids or an ailing relative or even a garden to tend
| to. Mandatory offsites are extremely painful for those who
| have strong ties to home.
|
| At my company offsites aren't mandatory: those who want to
| go, can go; but those who for some reason don't want to or
| can't are not looked down upon as "non-team players" or
| "antisocial". People are all different, and it's about time
| you recognized that.
| alchemism wrote:
| People with responsibilities in a fixed location probably
| should not take traveling salesperson positions,
| generally speaking.
| zz865 wrote:
| > I am completely unable to empathize.
|
| If you're travelling away who will look after you kids?
| Pets? Parents? Believe it or not most people have
| responsibilities.
| r00fus wrote:
| Do any of them have kids?
|
| Me doing this (after years of 25%+ travel in a different role)
| would result in a divorce quite quick.
| ilaksh wrote:
| My take is that the lack of interaction and socializing is not
| actually dependant on being in the same physical location day-in-
| and-day-out.
|
| There are a lot of ways that people socialize online. They just
| aren't built into the remote work culture.
|
| There are many startups looking to address this with more social
| virtual work environments. But really it's a matter of what
| people do rather than not having tools.
|
| For example if there was an always-on video-chat on its own
| monitor, people could just unmute that. Or something similar but
| with different locations such as water-cooler A and water-cooler
| B.
|
| For me, having been remote for about ten years or more depending
| on how you count it, they have mostly been very small startups.
| And the other people involved actually generally have had other
| jobs to do. So they just didn't have much time available during
| the week for socializing. But part of it I feel is a lack of
| interest in socializing. Which you can say that forcing people to
| do it by being in the same space is an advantage but maybe
| another idea is to adopt traditions/culture and software that
| make it more fun or easier to socialize online.
|
| I just wish people would log into the Discord more. But I think
| the fact they don't do that every day means they are a bit
| checked out of the project realistically.
| badrabbit wrote:
| I think like most things, moderation is best. My work makes come
| to the office twice a week. I didn't like it at first but I
| adopted, it's nice to get out of the house once in a while and
| see and be seen by your peers. I am most productive at home but I
| can be productive in the office as well.
|
| I think a lot depends on your home life. I live alone, no close
| friends, pets,etc...and I am fine most days but I need some
| social interaction so I won't turn into a complete hermit. I have
| colleagues with kids and family members at home as well who hate
| the office for obvious reasons. So long as I get to work from
| home most days and I don't have to spend the entire day in the
| office I don't think it's such a big deal. I am grateful to even
| have the option to work from home at all.
| Zababa wrote:
| Something that's very important when considering "the office":
| open spaces. For some people, they are terrible. Going to the
| office in a private office, in a small office with a few people
| or in an open space with 20+ people are all very different things
| for very different kind of people. I personally don't like open
| offices, especially where there are people behind me.
| innocentoldguy wrote:
| I agree! I cannot function in an open office environment. They
| are too loud, there are too many disgusting odors (e.g. food,
| body spray/cologne/perfume, body odor, halitosis, etc.), and
| there is too much movement going on for me to concentrate on
| anything. I also hate people looking over my shoulder. I'd be
| more productive working in front of a strobe light in the
| center ring of a circus with a clown banging his meaty finger
| into my chest and demanding I name ten fruits.
| cgrealy wrote:
| Could not agree more. Open plan offices are death to
| producitivity. They were fine when you had a massive pool of
| people doing mechanical bureaucracy but they are terrible for
| anyone doing anything creative or knowledge based.
|
| They are also a major problem with hybrid offices:
| meetings/conference calls.
|
| If everyone is in the office, you find a meeting room... no
| problem (assuming you can find one).
|
| If everyone is remote, you all jump on a call... no problem.
|
| When half the team are remote, and multiple teams are remote,
| you suddenly have way more calls in an open plan office, which
| is horrific.
| 01100011 wrote:
| All I can say that hasn't already been said in the dozens of HN
| discussions already is this: someone better make up their damn
| minds soon, because living with the uncertainty of knowing what
| my job situation will be like and where I need to live is
| stressing me out.
|
| Send me back to the office, let me WFH, keep me within an hours
| drive... whatever... just tell me so I can plan the next couple
| years of my life accordingly. For me, the uncertainty of the
| current era is the worst part. Life never offers guarantees, but
| it is good to at least know where things should be headed.
| spookybones wrote:
| A coworking space was the solution for me, even before the
| pandemic.
| jdlyga wrote:
| My team pre-covid had half the team in New York and half the team
| in Warsaw. Post-covid, we have 1 person in New York, one in
| Philly, 2 in California, and 1 in Warsaw. We could've never set
| up a team like this if we were expected to be together in one
| office.
| pineconebutt wrote:
| The worst part about the office in the United States is the car
| commute most people have. Besides that, it's not so bad.
| Socializing and feeling like a true part of a company is much
| easier when going to work. I like the office and the physical
| separation between more home and work life it provides. When I
| get home at the end of the day, I don't want work to be
| interrupting me. My home life is the priority when I am home.
| mjfl wrote:
| I used to work from home at a relatively fast paced job (software
| engineer / trader for a hedge fund) and it really didn't work for
| me. I needed the face to face communication of an office setting
| to work at the pace required. I would also be afraid that working
| from home would disconnect me from things going on at the company
| and make me seem less essential, more redundant, more likely to
| be laid off, which DID happen to a person I know who insisted on
| remote work. I think the remote life works if you are a
| specialist hired to hammer your personal nail for a company, over
| and over again without much change to daily requirements, but I
| think that is a fragile circumstance.
| UweSchmidt wrote:
| Shoutout to everyone who keeps reading about the woes of home
| office, but has to work in hospitals, factories, warehouses, or
| drive a truck.
|
| I enjoy my home office tremendously, but it's still kinda surreal
| to me how we can all sit at home with our laptops and that
| somehow keeps the economy going - as if our jobs hadn't been
| abstract and hyper-specialized already, now some people don't
| even leave their bed to work.
| ryanSrich wrote:
| And yet, the traffic where I live is beyond anything I've ever
| seen. So clearly we're in the tiniest minority. Most people
| still have to drive to work, even during a pandemic.
| Yanster wrote:
| Traffic in and out of the capital here has reached insane
| levels too, despite most people with compatible jobs getting
| a deal with only 2 or 3 days at the office since the crisis.
|
| I know quite a few previously using public transportation 5
| days a week now driving on "office" days, because they got
| scared of rush hour crowds.
|
| That and/or the lower car costs no longer justify the savings
| of using public transportation.
| Grimm1 wrote:
| Not going back to the office seems pretty split around age lines
| to me. Most people in their mid thirties and up want to keep WFH
| full time. Early thirties is a mix, and then all the ways down
| from there seems like they want to be back in the office. Of
| course this isn't a hard rule but continues to be my observation
| across a few workplaces and from friends and acquaintances.
| mrtranscendence wrote:
| I'm forty, and for what it's worth I'd be more than happy going
| back to the office if I had a short commute. But the drive home
| can take as much as 1.5hrs depending on traffic, and it was a
| little soul crushing. I've had so much more time since going
| remote.
|
| Maybe younger folks are more likely to live closer to their
| work? Haven't looked into it at all, though.
| nzmsv wrote:
| All you need to know about requiring work from an office is this:
| the people selling the supposed benefits of increased
| collaboration, creativity, and productivity do not themselves
| work this way. There is no CEO or VC who spends their entire day
| sitting in a cubicle, even if they have a token one.
| mgkimsal wrote:
| Well, their output is measured differently too, so I'd expect
| their work actions and locations to be different. If the ceo
| was expected to produce output that was suited to working in a
| cubicle, they would do that, but that's not how their output is
| measured.
| nzmsv wrote:
| But sitting in a cubicle can be bad for you even if it helps
| your productivity metrics in the short term.
| malaya_zemlya wrote:
| YMMV at my last job, at one of the Bay Area unicorns, I sat
| right across the founder's desk and he was working there like
| the rest of us.
| downandout wrote:
| Yes, something tells me Mark Zuckerberg doesn't spend much time
| in his cubicle. He also has the peace of mind of knowing that
| whenever he feels like it, he can have any of a number of
| places on campus all to himself. So going to work in a
| cubicle/public space isn't nearly the same psychological
| experience for him that it is for regular workers there.
| 01100011 wrote:
| That is worth mentioning, but it is far from 'all you need to
| know'. My job role is completely different from the CEO of my
| company, so I wouldn't expect them to work in the same
| environment I do. If my CEO's job entailed sitting in a cubicle
| all day I'd find another company to work for.
| justrudd wrote:
| Reminds me of a place I worked 7 or 8 years ago? The CEO was
| big on the "I'm just one of you" trope. They had a cubicle
| the same as everyone else. They dropped their bag off every
| morning, had pictures, a couple of plants, etc.
|
| But...
|
| There was a conference room literally right across from their
| cubicle that had a recurring 10 hour 5 day a week meeting in
| it. 2 guesses who that recurring meeting belonged to.
| sealthedeal wrote:
| The future of work is flexibility, it has nothing to do with in
| office or remote-first. It has everything to do with tech
| workers, or people who work from a screen having control and
| autonomy over their lives to decide to work how they would like
| too. We need to stop choosing one side or the other, its just a
| balance :).
| [deleted]
| rnd0 wrote:
| Well, yes actually.
| nkotov wrote:
| I experimented a bit with this with my company. We came down to a
| hybrid of what we call, 'Work where and when you're most
| productive'. The office primarily is now used for pair
| programming + discussions. Focus work seems to get done at home.
| My dev team on average comes in 2/3 days a week. Works out well
| for us.
| KronisLV wrote:
| Personally, i don't miss going to the office in the slightest.
| Having to get up very early which in practice led to either not
| getting a lot done the previous evening or being sleep deprived.
| Having to get dressed a certain way to look presentable. Having
| to take public transportation for an hour as a commute, which i
| didn't exactly enjoy. Having to interact with people and attend
| meetings in a "formal" environment. Having essentially no privacy
| and feeling like i'm boxed in or judged in some ways. Having to
| look busy, instead of just being able to get things done and work
| on whatever that i desire. Being stuck in the dystopian landscape
| of a large city, sprawling with life, noise and pollution,
| whereas i'd much prefer my current countryside view instead -
| just being able to go outside and enjoy some peace and quiet, do
| some light exercise for a bit without getting weird looks, or
| just play with my dogs as a break that i wouldn't otherwise take.
|
| And on the other end of the spectrum, there are people out there
| who feel absolutely suffocated by being stuck behind a screen and
| not being able to collaborate in the physical presence of others.
| The conversations, with all of their tiny details which get lost
| in text, voice or even video chats. Building rapport with others
| and getting to know them better, all of the spontaneous
| conversations that just don't happen at all. Even overhearing
| ones like that and learning more about what's going on in the
| company. And instead being stuck at home, in many situations even
| with noisy kids or a work environment that simply isn't good for
| their wellbeing in the longer term! They sometimes even see the
| days blending together and finding it harder to separate work
| from their private time.
|
| The amount of empathy that i feel for these people is limited due
| to our personal differences, the same way that they don't
| necessarily imagine themselves putting themselves in the shoes of
| someone who hasn't felt one bit of discomfort at working remotely
| and finds social satisfaction elsewhere (online communities and
| enjoyment of video essays and such content in my case). The exact
| same way that for them working in the office just felt very
| normal and natural, it being their preferred way of getting
| things done. To me, it feels like those are just two very
| different types of people, regardless of their other qualities.
|
| Neither of us are necessarily better in any way (unless you want
| to talk about what the majority of humanity is like and therefore
| which form of work it is better suited for), however those
| differences are where the problems will begin. Sooner or later,
| many will want to return to the office, while for others it will
| be a dealbreaker. In many cases, a particular type of work will
| be mandated "from above" and many employees will just decide to
| leave their companies and participate in a globalized economy
| instead... whilst taking all of their domain knowledge with
| themselves. A hot job market is probably overall a good thing,
| but knowing how much documentation and onboarding is lacking
| within the industry, i fear that there will be quite a few
| problematic situations to be encountered in the coming decade.
|
| I actually summarized these thoughts in a blog post of my own as
| well: "Remote working and the elephant in the room".
|
| Here's a link: https://blog.kronis.dev/articles/remote-working-
| and-the-elep...
| m10y wrote:
| My theory is that office design and expectations are just broken
| for tech workers. There's no reason (besides profits) that my
| office can't be just as comfortable as the spare bedroom I do my
| work in. There is the broader issue of a commute, but divorcing
| companies from the worst real-estate markets on the planet would
| help a lot with that.
|
| There are three real game changers:
|
| - I get to wear more comfortable clothes, and be more comfortable
| in them. This is a culture problem.
|
| - I have a big, private office (bedroom-sized) with windows and
| comfortable furniture that I can potentially nap on when I need
| to.
|
| - I have a private half-bath that I don't have to transit the
| whole darn building to visit. Public bathrooms are terribly
| unpleasant, but I also don't want to have to break my flow by
| getting caught by a coworker who wants to chat about whatever.
|
| If my work office could solve these aspects, I would prefer it
| over my home office every day.
| Tycho wrote:
| If you work alone in a private office, you can't engage in
| casual banter, which is half the fun of work. Yeah you get good
| piece and quiet but you can always just throw on some
| headphones with white noise to drown out the surrounding
| chatter.
| [deleted]
| zmmmmm wrote:
| My bet is that the future is going to end up with a more
| distributed / dispersed model : for large companies, small shared
| office spaces around town where staff can commute most days to a
| shared office within a few minutes of their home, and can choose
| work for a day at a central or specific office when it's useful
| for a project or team.
|
| The distinction of "WFH/remote" vs "on site" will blur once home
| is within a few minutes of work. People will literally walk to
| the office for a meeting and then walk home again. People who are
| working from home will pop in to share lunch and then go home
| again. This is my dream, anyway...
| redact207 wrote:
| Can this ever be answered?
|
| Everyone has their own personal circumstance and reasons for
| wanting to work in the office, home or hybrid. Ultimately
| employees will choose what suits them and given nowadays a lot of
| companies offer the choice of remote, will see people shift if
| that's what they want.
|
| Remote will become an accepted and standard way of working, and I
| hope local communities will benefit and thrive from having a
| local hub of workers.
| daxfohl wrote:
| "Always available" is more broken than going back to office.
| einpoklum wrote:
| The latest corporate fantasy: Let's save money on rent and office
| equipment and make up some gobbledygook about how it's good for
| creativity and dynamism or something.
| CallMeJim wrote:
| Betteridge's law of headlines: "Any headline that ends in a
| question mark can be answered by the word no." [0]
|
| [0]
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headline...
| jstx1 wrote:
| My impression from previous discussions is that people like what
| they like whether it's remote or in office and there isn't a lot
| of convincing that we can do to each other.
|
| Given the above, how do companies move forward? Make some % of
| your employees unhappy because they're either dragged back into
| the office or forced to work without one? Hybrid models? They
| seem like the worst of everything and they don't look like a
| stable solution. Maybe through quitting everyone reorganises
| themselves into the type of company they want (remote or in-
| office) and then everyone is happy?
|
| What options do we have here?
| 1270018080 wrote:
| I think individual employees are just figuring it out
| themselves. The free market can solve this issue autonomously.
| This causes a lot of short term pain for the companies
| themselves, but who cares? They're not even sentient beings.
| dave78 wrote:
| What's so wrong with letting every employee make their own
| choice? Then, after 6 months or a year or whatever (to get
| everyone a chance to get used to it and be confident in their
| selection), survey everyone to find out who wants to keep
| working from home. Those that don't - allocate them a desk in
| an office. Add some additional hoteling desks for travelers or
| normal WFHers who need to visit, and then adjust the size of
| your office space to match.
| jstx1 wrote:
| > What's so wrong with letting every employee make their own
| choice?
|
| You're inevitably forcing your colleagues into your own way
| of working to some extent. Imagine a team of 6 people working
| on the same product:
|
| If 1 is in office and 5 are remote, then the benefits of the
| office are largely lost even for the 1 person. That 1 person
| is still working in a remote model just from a different
| location which happens to be the office.
|
| If 1 is remote and 5 are in office, the 1 person will
| inevitably miss out on a lot of the ongoing in-person
| communication. This was a well-known thing before the
| pandemic - the most common advice was to be remote for
| entirely remote companies/teams but to avoid being the only
| remote person on an office-based team.
|
| If it's 3-3, then some of the communication is in person and
| half of the team is missing out on it but all meetings still
| have to be online.
|
| I don't doubt that some companies will do this but it doesn't
| seem stable in the long run.
| dave78 wrote:
| Maybe I'm just used to it already. My team has employees in
| several different states (due to having offices there
| through a series of old acquisitions), as well as
| contractors both in South America and Eastern Europe. So,
| even before COVID, our meetings were already online-
| centric.
|
| In fact I started working remote full time because after
| our company moved us to a fancy new open-office floorplan
| in the city my commute went from 20 mins to 75 and I
| realized I was wasting all that time just to be on virtual
| meetings in the office, so I stopped going in. Even when we
| were all in the office, meetings tended to be online anyway
| because the company did not build nearly enough conference
| rooms.
|
| Having an online-first culture even before COVID never
| seemed to be a big problem for us. Obviously YMMV.
| vesuvianvenus wrote:
| Those are Hypothetical anecdotal problems.
|
| Don't fear the idea just because in your mind there are
| purely hypothetical situations where it might not be
| optimal.
|
| The direct opposite of your opinion & posited hypothetical
| situation may exist in someone else's mind.
| DylanBohlender wrote:
| Judging by the historic job changing trends in the last few
| months, I think your suggestion that "through quitting everyone
| reorganizes themselves" is already happening.
|
| The only question that remains to be answered is whether remote
| or in-office companies have structural advantages over the
| other type, and it will probably take a decade or so before
| there's enough data to conclusively call it.
| innocentoldguy wrote:
| As someone with functional autism, I like working remotely. In my
| case, working in an office is indeed a broken way to work. For
| me, the benefits of remote work are:
|
| 1. A greater ability to focus and be as productive as possible.
|
| 2. Greater control over my schedule.
|
| 3. A much better work/life balance. I love being around my wife
| and kids and don't want or need social interactions with people
| from work outside of work hours. It is very rare (three times in
| my 30+ year career) that my work friendships cross over into my
| personal life.
|
| 4. By working remotely, I have been able to recover two hours of
| my life per day by not commuting.
|
| 5. I was able to get rid of one of my cars, since I don't need it
| for commuting to work. This saves me a ton of money in insurance,
| repairs, gas, maintenance, etc. It's also my small contribution
| to the environment.
|
| Having been forced to work in an office for most of my career, I
| can empathize with people who need the type of interpersonal
| relationships an office provides in order to function their best.
| I'm sure those people are struggling with remote work the same
| way I struggled with being in an office.
|
| We're all different and have different needs. I doubt a one-size-
| fits-all approach will ever appeal to everyone, regardless of
| what it is.
| Jenk wrote:
| Hopefully the death of the always in, or always out, is what is
| new.
|
| I worked remotely, full time, for several years long before the
| pandemic. Early enough that anytime I told someone I would have
| to explain all the minutiae that Yes, I am able to get stuff done
| at home. No, I don't need to "get dressed for the office anyway"
| and "Yes, we have many video calls per day just to keep in touch"
| and so on.
|
| It was fun for a while, but what made it _really_ fun, was
| meeting colleagues in cafes and the like all over town for
| regular catchups and stuff like brainstorms.
|
| I was at my peak productivity (of my entire career) when I had
| the choice to stay at home and maximise my "in the zone" time but
| also was no further than "tomorrow" from being able to have a
| meeting with the team.
|
| Granted, there are caveats to this - having a decent, work
| compatible, space at home. I have invested quite a bit in
| ergonomic furniture at home, and have dedicated a small room to
| be my work space.
|
| I also live in the suburbs of a big city, no more than an hour
| away from the bustle, collab spaces, and coffee shops.
|
| What made me leave was over time the colleagues either moved away
| or left, to be replaced by people further away, meaning those
| next-to-impromptu meetings became more and more difficult to
| have. Eventually I felt like I was missing out on civilisation
| and threw in the towel for a trendy startup gig in the city
| again.
|
| Then covid hit and I'm back to full time remote and it's starting
| to suck again.
| twobitshifter wrote:
| Management at my company just revealed their flex work plan and
| it's a total joke. You have the ability to develop a plan with
| your manager, but you're expected to work at least 8 hours a
| day and in be in the office 2/3rds of the time - do the math
| and you're over 3 days in the office, which leaves you with a
| day and a half of "flex" in your schedule - but then you can't
| "flex" enough to be under 8 hours. On top of that if you live
| in another tax jurisdiction you are forbidden from working from
| home.
| telotortium wrote:
| By Cal Newport
| jstx1 wrote:
| Who has made a second career out of condescendingly presenting
| his own opinions as fact.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| His blog has always had great material, but as with many
| bloggers who branch out, the pressures and incentives to pump
| out vapid contentless thinkpieces increase with success.
|
| Not saying that necessarily applies to TFA, though. But imo
| it does apply to the somewhat overrated _Deep Work_.
| harikb wrote:
| > He even imagines a future in which specialized resorts will
| arise in locations conducive to brainstorming or strategy
| formation, where teams will work with the help of professional
| on-site facilitators.
|
| While this may be the romanticized optimal work setup, regular
| people have kids in school and local commitments. This
| arrangement, sometimes, puts unfair disadvantage to women as
| well. Of course in a ideal world, both parents don't have to
| travel to offsite, but disappearing to a resort for days may not
| work for everyone
| arrosenberg wrote:
| Co-locating with your coworkers isn't a broken way of working,
| per se, but the majority of our cities are not designed for
| work/life balance.
|
| If the office is a 5 minute walk, I have absolutely no problem
| going in and staying until the usefulness of being together is
| exhausted for the day. When the commute is an hour plus in
| traffic, that's gonna be a no from me dawg.
|
| Add on to that the fact that some regions have been major winners
| the last decade while others are major losers, means that people
| stuck in "loser" regions may have better remote prospects than
| local prospects.
| emaginniss wrote:
| When I had a mostly-remote job, I solved the traffic issue by
| coming in at 10am and leaving at 3pm on the days I'd visit the
| office. 2 days of that a week was enough to maintain contact,
| go to lunch with folks and handle any obligate in-person
| meetings.
| willio58 wrote:
| As someone who initially missed the office, went back as soon as
| they offered that option, then promptly stopped going back to the
| office, what I realized is that I was relying on the office for
| social interaction. Living with roommates who are also remote is
| honestly ideal for this. Remote life has given me flexibility I
| couldn't imagine sacrificing now for any job.
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