[HN Gopher] Thoughts of work invaded my life until I learned how...
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Thoughts of work invaded my life until I learned how to unplug
Author : Pikkie
Score : 214 points
Date : 2021-08-21 14:18 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.sciencemag.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.sciencemag.org)
| whitepaint wrote:
| So, basically meditate and try to be in a moment.
| esfandia wrote:
| The problem with not checking email during weekends or vacation
| is that the emails don't go away, they accumulate. So when you're
| back to work you have even more stress trying to catch up.
| dredmorbius wrote:
| There are systems / employers (several in Germany) which
| explicitly reject messages sent after hours / over the weekend
| for just this reason.
| [deleted]
| mancerayder wrote:
| Unlike others below I don't have an issue not being able to look
| at emails or work on weekends/evenings.
|
| I do have a real big problem forgetting about work and all its
| problems to solve. Sometimes, it's not even my fault - the brain
| wakes me up with thoughts and worries and nightmares.
|
| There's something structurally wrong here, I'd rather not focus
| on all the things that stress me. I find myself seeking out full
| distractions, like drinking or video games. Kratom helps.
|
| Meditation takes me back to a place where I think. I'd rather not
| think.
| maverwa wrote:
| I feel you. It's about the same for me. I can look at my phone,
| see work mails and teams notifications pile up and totally
| ignore that if I don't want to look. Sometimes I want,
| sometimes I don't and sometimes I read mail and decide to
| ignore them until Monday. But waking up and thinking about that
| bug or a solution for a difficult problem nervet stops. I think
| it may be something that happens when you make your passion
| also your job. I feel passionately about the code I write, the
| problems it solves or causes, and there's nothing in my brain
| separating work from private code directly. It's an extra step
| I have to do ,,manually". But when reading the problems other
| described here, I feel very very lucky.
| redisman wrote:
| What you could do is compensate for that by ending your day
| an hour early or by taking a long lunch break. You were
| working late or early unwittingly and solved a problem. I've
| learned to notice when I'm just spinning my wheels to hit
| that 8h for the day and now I just stop for the day when that
| happens. Then if something does come up I don't end up doing
| overtime on top of everything. I don't feel guilty since I
| get paid for results, not hours in front of my machine and
| because I know I can't stop thinking about the problem in the
| shower or when I wake up in the middle of the night
| maverwa wrote:
| Yeah, that's pretty much what I do. It's hard to put
| numbers on those things but I basically do what you
| suggested. Works great for me, and my employer and team
| seem to be very happy about my results. What more can I
| wish for?
| wolverine876 wrote:
| > I find myself seeking out full distractions, like drinking or
| video games.
|
| Everyone needs a break but find healthy ones, where you feel
| better when the break ends (e.g., not usually the case with
| drinking). Constructive hobbies (e.g., music, building model
| planes, etc.) are good for that.
|
| > Meditation takes me back to a place where I think. I'd rather
| not think.
|
| Meditation, at least in forms I know, is being present in the
| moment with your emotions and leaving behind thoughts of the
| past and future.
| timdaub wrote:
| Good. There are also bits of advice in "Deep Work" from Cal
| Newport. He writes about a daily "shutdown procedure" 20mins
| before leaving work. I mainly apply it by writing down all of the
| day's leftover "todos" as detailed as possible on postits so that
| I can leave the office with peace in mind. I find it helpful and
| rewarding.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| I tend to be a wee bit obsessive about my work.
|
| In my case, it's OK. It's actually been a lifelong dream of mine,
| to be able to devote all the time that I want, to writing
| software. I was a manager, for years, at my "day job," and had to
| fit writing software into the nooks and crannies (I actually got
| a lot done).
|
| I'm working with a small team, as a startup, and it's OK, so far.
| zrail wrote:
| Ctrl-f therapy: 0 results
|
| A decent therapist will help you learn the skills you need to
| manage your mental health. I've found therapy to be
| extraordinarily helpful, both as an external sounding board but
| also as a person who can help me find resources without spinning
| my wheels for hours and days.
| dredmorbius wrote:
| Therapy itself can only do so much.
|
| There are many bad therapists.
|
| (Finding a good therapist is a bit like tech recruiting ---
| signal is low, false signal is high, quality variability is
| tremendous, search costs are high, consequences of a poor
| decision are high.)
| AllSeason wrote:
| I fully relate as a business owner. Technology makes it easier
| than ever to stay plugged in and it costs quality of life and by
| some research years of life.
|
| I resisted the smart phone and linked email for a long time. Once
| it finally invaded life changed. Just this morning a client lost
| her legal documents and needs a copy from me. It is so hard to
| stay away. Slowly I am learning to push away from the table and
| walk. It isn't always that easy.
| charles_f wrote:
| I'm relatively good at not checking email or IM after work is
| done. However I'm pretty anxious and work affects me in the form
| of emotions: guilt (I haven't done that thing I was supposed to
| do, I didnt do that right), fear (I'm gonna screw that up, I'm
| gonna get fired) and animosity (why is that person messing with
| me, why can't they see my point of view). This got bad to the
| point where it was preventing me from enjoying things I should
| have.
|
| The first thing that helped was seeing a therapist, who got me to
| read my feelings and identify when I get into a pointless loop.
|
| The second one is meditation, which also lowers the effects of
| fear and guilt, provided that I realize I'm rehashing emotions.
|
| The next one is more vain, but I started prioritizing some things
| based on how bad they may make me feel until I do them. Somehow
| this seems to help with the whole urgency vs importance as well.
|
| Last is some form of an anti-regret framework: acting with
| principles (e.g. I do my best, I don't take shortcuts, etc.).
| When I feel bad, getting back to these helps (I did my best, by
| definition there was nothing more I could have done at that
| time).
|
| I still get affected, but definitely those help.
| dghughes wrote:
| I started in IT (officially) late in life at the bottom; help
| desk. I don't know if I could survive anything more stressful.
| College was a blast but help desk is torture it's not what I (or
| anyone) want but it pays well. The call app we use pops up in the
| lower right side of the screen when a call comes in. One day when
| I was off work there was an antivirus update on my own computer
| the notification popped up in the lower right part of the screen
| and I got a jolt of adrenaline and anxiety.
| almost_usual wrote:
| The only thing I got from startups were good friends and an
| experience. It's not something you want when you have other life
| obligations.
|
| The pay sucks, the work is long, you're always 'on'. Living like
| this with a family would be a very poor and selfish decision.
|
| Be an adult, get a job at a public company with decent comp, and
| take care of your family not work.
| xivzgrev wrote:
| I recently had a trip where I made a change that made a huge
| difference for me and I wanted to share it here.
|
| Turn off notification previews
|
| It made a world of difference to see "gmail notification" vs
| "email from xyz person on xyz topic". The former is a lot easier
| to avoid getting wrapped up in. The latter strikes your curiosity
| and it's a steep downward slope from there.
|
| I liked it so much I may do the same on my work computer during
| work hours.
| ubicomp wrote:
| I struggle with this daily. As the founder of a startup, I would
| routinely pull 100 hour weeks. I remember being invited to a
| Halloween party and just showed up as "exhausted software person"
| because I had no time to prepare a costume.
|
| I took a break for 8 years from startups, because I was unable to
| create boundaries in my mind.
|
| This April, after what I thought was a long enough break, I just
| joined another one.
|
| I'm writing this right now because I woke up early in a panic
| attack about an announcement from one of our competitors. We have
| a big launch coming up this week, and I'm afraid that we're
| already too late. I feel my stomach clench and my mind race when
| I think about the next steps for the company.
|
| The problem is that I'm only 4 months into the startup and I've
| already alienated my partner enough that I have to move out. My
| whole life has become devoured by this puzzle, and I'm always
| checking Twitter and Discord to see what I can work on next. I
| can't slow my heart-rate down and just work at this job normally.
|
| If any of you have a good way of "turning off" in order to keep
| your family stable and mental health okay, please let me know.
| And I'm not looking for a run of the mill response -- I really
| would like some advice from people who have really dealt with
| this before. It's easy to give advice if you have good
| boundaries, but I would like some help from those who have really
| struggled.
|
| I love my work, but I don't like how it makes me feel. Thanks for
| your help, everyone.
| Torwald wrote:
| > If any of you have a good way of "turning off" in order to
| keep your family stable and mental health okay, please let me
| know.
|
| Neil Fiore's "Unschedule"
| bitexploder wrote:
| I have run an infosec consultancy for the last 8 years with a
| couple partners. You got a lot of good advice already, but I'll
| throw in my two points:
|
| 1. You need a hobby outside of business. Something you look
| forward to at a lot that is intrinsically rewarding. Physical
| in nature is a plus for me. BJJ is my hobby and it's great.
|
| 2. Stoicism. The dichotomy of control specifically is powerful.
| Sort your life into buckets of what you can control and what
| you can't. Acknowledge your limits. Can you really work
| productively and deeply even 60 or 70 hours a week?
|
| Honestly, find a therapist. Someone you can lay out your mental
| goals with and be held accountable. You will need to explore
| this and find out what's at the root of the overwork. What's
| truly important to you? How can you get there healthy and
| sustainable.
| christophilus wrote:
| I think the hobby recommendation is a good one. When I was in
| a similar strait, I found rock climbing took me completely
| out of my headspace. If you've got access to a good rock
| climbing gym, I highly recommend it.
| stadium wrote:
| Stoicism is a tricky concept to internalize without first
| dealing with the underlying emotional responses.
|
| Learning about something and knowing it's a better way feels
| good in the short term, but the risk for someone stuck in
| some deep emotional traumas like OP described is similar to
| telling an alcoholic to stop drinking.
|
| Definitely +1 on the therapy
| bitexploder wrote:
| The modern approach is for a therapist to get you to use
| CBT, which has a lot of roots in stoic philosophy. I backed
| into it over time... it's powerful, but I could see how it
| can make things worse too. It's something that definitely
| takes time to understand and integrate. I use the pieces
| that make sense. Especially the dichotomy of control (hence
| my recommendation). It's simple enough to help sort out
| life problems and focus on what can be impacted. When it
| all clicks though, it can make life decisions effortless
| (in my experience). Not for everyone though :)
| yosefjaved1 wrote:
| You'll need to remove things from your environment that's
| causing you to stress out and start making changes to your
| daily routine that are also exacerbating the stress.
|
| You'll never be able to completely get rid of the stress, but
| you can mitigate the impact it has on your life significantly
| so that it often times is more positive than negative.
|
| What are all those things that are causing you to stress? That
| I'm not certain. However, here are some things you can do:
|
| 1. Seek professional help. If there is an option to see a
| therapist for cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) then I would
| highly recommend you consider it. The therapist can help you
| identify things in your life that you otherwise never
| considered.
|
| 2. Remove Twitter and Discord from your phone. If you're
| constantly checking it and it's butting into your life then you
| need to remove them. For me personally, I removed nearly all
| social media and chat services from my devices. I still have
| slack (don't have a choice) but shut off all notifications
| after 5pm.
|
| 3. Find a hobby outside of work. I don't care if it's sports,
| videogames, board games, etc just find something outside of
| work that you enjoy and can help you unwind.
| mindhash wrote:
| I was in a similar boat. I turned to books. Read all that I
| could find in philosophy, leadership, and science of life in
| general.
|
| I also spent lot of time studying other startups and what they
| did differently to win.
|
| The founder fatigue is natural especially when we pour our
| heart into it. Failure hits hard. I read an interesting
| discussion between kapil gupta and naval. We attach our 'self'
| to much with the startup.
|
| While most literature focuses on avoiding thoughts, my learning
| after last couple of years is - the only skilll that can help
| is patience. Being able to wait is the primary skill I now
| focus on.
|
| Good luck.
|
| Some book recommendations: Anything from JD krishnamoorty, why
| zebras don't get ulcers, extreme leadership, charles duhigg
| both books, power of now (mindfulness), and most important why
| we sleep.
| baby wrote:
| Just quit. Moving on, change of sceneries, etc. Allows you to
| reinvent yourself. Start from scratch again.
| jyriand wrote:
| What I have learned is that every behavior serves a inner goal
| or purpose. You can try to figure out what the goal is by
| asking "by doing this what am I avoiding or what am I seeking".
| mehphp wrote:
| What you are describing doesn't sound like a typical "turning
| off work" situation. Startups, as you know, are a different
| animal.
|
| Are you sure startups are what you want to be doing? Being all-
| consuming is kinda the nature of the beast...
| lr4444lr wrote:
| Seconding this. If the OP has the problem as he describes, he
| really needs to avoid his trigger, which is the startup work
| environment.
| lwn wrote:
| I ran my life into a train-wreck, after doing a start-up. I'm
| still recovering from a burn-out. Luckily I still have my wife
| and kids around. They also had to put up with a lot.
|
| Some advice:
|
| 1. Go do a ten day retreat with Vipassana:
| https://www.dhamma.org/en-US/index It will learn you to 'listen
| and intercept' your impulses so you can deal with 'work-
| triggers' more easily
|
| 2. Turn your notifications off, forever. Train yourself
| discipline on order _not_ to look on your electronic devices
| all the time
|
| 3. For every 'effort' you take, there should be an equal amount
| of recreation. Exerting and relaxing should be in balance (Keep
| in mind, using a screen is not relaxing)
|
| 4. Eat healthy, plenty of outdoors/ nature and exercise.
| acituan wrote:
| > Go do a ten day retreat with Vipassana
|
| No, no, no. Spiritual retreats are not self-regulation tools,
| they are an education. 10 day intensive during a burnout is
| asking for trouble. It can't be your first contact with
| Vipassana and if you use it to bypass what you need to solve,
| you'll end up worse.
|
| Just rest, engage with mundane, real life (think sunshine,
| nature, using your body, eating well, laughing with friends
| etc), then do a "postmortem" on why did this happen and how
| can you prevent it; ideally with a therapist. After things
| are back to a normal, then you can add more practices like
| Vipassana, just start from the shallow end.
| afarrell wrote:
| 1. Be willing to accept run of the mill advice. Your problem is
| not tricky--it is instead dreadfully frightening and painfully
| difficult.
|
| 2. Go for a walk outside while listening to Brene Brown
| audiobooks.
|
| 3. Talk to humans who can actually calmly listen --- Not people
| as disconnected as an internet forum nor someone as intertwined
| as a life partner.
| throwaway6734 wrote:
| >As the founder of a startup, I would routinely pull 100 hour
| weeks
|
| I don't understand how anyone could be remotely productive
| under these settings unless it was all grind work. How many
| "fresh" hours of work would you say this was equivalent to?
| trollied wrote:
| I had this problem. I started going rock climbing after work.
| Only having to worry how I was going to get up a wall, and
| making that my sole focus, really helped create a couple of
| hours of seperation. I removed work email from my phone,
| personal computer and ipad. After a while it was easy to just
| forget about work after 17:30.
| sriram_malhar wrote:
| I was in this loop for a while. One day -- a rare Sunday
| morning when I was home -- I was just laying down on the carpet
| enjoying the warm sunshine on my face, when a vision of my
| workplace flashed in my mind. I was stunned to feel my
| heartbeat thump instantly. That's when I realized how truly
| stressed I was.
|
| The next day I told my manager that instead of the promotion I
| was due, I would take Fridays off for the same salary. Somehow,
| when I had two days off I found it easy to overwork on the
| weekend, but when I decided that every week had to have a 3-day
| weekend, everything changed. I started spending hours and hours
| at bookstores and cafes, and walking around SF and Berkeley.
|
| Of course it had a downside. I told my team not to hold
| meetings on Fridays, but they would forget and go ahead without
| me. My ego used to get bruised at my dispensability!
|
| I'm sure I left many career options on the table, but gained
| many life options. So much so that I eventually started working
| only six months a year (did it for 19 years), and picked up a
| PhD (starting at age 42) during those years.
|
| There will always be relentless deadlines, but there has to be
| enough whitespace built into a life.
|
| I have retired now, but I still wake up wanting to write code
| or learn something now.
| steveBK123 wrote:
| That's a really great career path you were able to plot out,
| and great your manager at the start of the journey was
| supportive of it.
|
| I think a lot of people don't realize everything is
| negotiable and you have to set out your own path.
|
| That said, you have to make sure you get yourself into the
| right organization first to make these sort of flexible
| arrangements. I think 60-75% of firms I have worked at would
| not allow either % of week / % of year type of arrangements,
| and the most you might get is a permanent WFH for less pay
| deal.
|
| The amount of stupid things I stayed stupid late for at my
| previous gig because my manager was a workaholic (as was his
| own manager). It's never a direct order and rarely even a
| request, but when your boss just stays in the office til 9pm
| it makes it hard to walk out the door at 5..6..7pm when
| theres a pending release/bugfix/etc late going out the door.
| Likewise when they call you on your cell at 6:45pm without
| warning to discuss non-urgent issues because they've finally
| gotten to that email in their inbox..
| option_greek wrote:
| It might sound weird but apart from the standard advice you are
| going to receive about pills, therapy and mental gymnastics, in
| my personal experience becoming more spiritual helps.
|
| I know its not a popular thing in a any tech circles to even
| think about it but it does help. And spirituality need not
| involve any religion. You can try philosophies like Zen or
| Advaita which basically reduces you to being a doer aiming for
| the best way to do things without caring for the outcome. These
| philosophies reduce the attachment to material success and
| paradoxically also help you do your best on any given task
| because your mind is free.
|
| Its like you are a plumber or electrician who got called for
| consultation. You give your best possible advice and try doing
| the best possible work but if the customer faces the problem
| again, you might not feel the pain personally.
| higeorge13 wrote:
| I had the same problem. Do any or all of the following:
|
| - Seek professional help. This is the number one advice and
| will be extremely helpful.
|
| - Remove all work-related accounts from you personal laptop and
| mobile. Try not to search for your work during your spare time.
| Search for something else, sports, books, tv series, anything.
|
| - Find a hobby with a strict schedule to follow after work, and
| ideally a (short) goal-oriented one. Rock climbing is perfect
| because you have short term task to succeed (similar to your
| day-to-day tasks and tickets), but any of them can work. Just
| set a goal with your coach, e.g. play your first tennis match
| with an opponent in 6 months and so on.
|
| - Move on. This is probably the hardest, but you really have to
| consider that this job or life style is not helping you and you
| need to change to something different. A different job, a non-
| startup job, a new house, a different neighbourhood, city,
| anything that can shock your system, help you relax and find
| some peace, and eventually strengthen your relationship with
| your partner.
|
| - Instead of setting goals only for your work life, set some
| goals for your personal one, e.g. make a new friend within
| 2021, travel to Asia within 6 months and so on. Revisit them
| every now and then, and check how you are doing.
|
| Best of luck to you.
| nomy99 wrote:
| I have been in a similar situation and the only thing that
| helped me was religion. Believing in God removes stress and
| puts things in perspective for me.
| [deleted]
| kQq9oHeAz6wLLS wrote:
| Among other things, religion helps you realize there are
| things beyond your control, which is essential to unplugging.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| Maybe startups, or at least the roles you have, don't suit you.
| Just like your startup, the tactic is to quickly learn what
| doesn't work and pivot, and to not endlessly pursue something
| that isn't working.
|
| It might seem unthinkable, but that is a good sign that you are
| trapping yourself and inflexible. If you worry what everyone
| else will think if you leave the startup world, you are looking
| at the wrong market. When you find something that suits you, I
| promise you will never regret it.
| parksy wrote:
| I can only share my experience, if it's relevant and helps
| that's great, but as always everyone has different
| circumstances so take it with a grain of salt.
|
| As someone who grew up never able to accept failure (I remember
| my first B in high school quite vividly), this fear drove a lot
| of my anxiety in my 20's and 30's. Fear can be helpful as a
| survival tool that warns of danger. Anxiety can be hugely
| motivating but it will eat away at you, like having your own
| inner Gordon Ramsay screaming at you 100% of the time to be
| better.
|
| Some advice never worked for me in the past like "foster a work
| life balance by doing x, y and z" or "these simple automations
| will free your mind from work" etc - that kind of prescriptive
| steps-to-success stuff was like putting a bandage on a burning
| house, just completely the wrong remedy for what I had going
| on.
|
| I have been getting monthly CBT with a clinical psychologist
| for the past year and it's been wonderfully helpful. I see it
| like taking your mind in for a tune up at the brain-garage.
| Sometimes you'll wonder if that oil change was really necessary
| and grumble at the expense, other times a simple oil change
| will dislodge something that was held together by old gunk and
| you'll need to spend some extra time to replace a worn out part
| or two, but afterwards you'll be running a lot more
| efficiently.
|
| Another thing that has helped was simple meditation, nothing
| spiritual, just setting aside quiet time each day to sit still,
| disconnect, and focus on calming the mind. It might seem
| counter intuitive to draw on that house fire analogy to sit
| still in the midst of it all, but think of meditation or
| therapy as a fire extinguisher instead and it makes more sense.
|
| It's really tough to advise because we're all different,
| however the way I see it now, there's an entire profession of
| people who specialise in debugging minds, finding a therapist I
| could gel with and making serious time for it helped me,
| possibly saved my life even. It might be the best investment in
| myself I've ever made.
|
| Good luck with the launch, sorry to hear you've been having a
| difficult time of it, it definitely isn't easy.
| fxtentacle wrote:
| Put your phone into airplane mode and give it to your
| wife/girlfriend/buddy/kids.
|
| Internet articles, modern products, and social media are all
| optimized to be as addictive as possible. So the first step is
| to forcibly cut the dopamine loop.
|
| FYI, CTO of a startup here. In my experience, co-workers and
| investors will actually respect you more if you have clear
| personal boundaries and stick to them. And it's not like "don't
| call on family day" is such a harsh restriction. The others
| have family too, you know.
| sixdimensional wrote:
| I went on vacation recently to a town with spotty
| electricity, no cell service for my carrier and barely
| functioning Internet. I didn't realize there would be no cell
| service or Internet on my vacation. I brought only books,
| binoculars, clothes, paper/pen, food and myself. I stayed in
| a motel/cabin kind of lodging and did a lot of mindless
| driving.
|
| It was somewhat accidental forced unplugging/disconnecting.
|
| Between work stress, COVID, and my own slight Asperger's, I
| struggle to get myself out of mental loops.
|
| During this time away, my first few days, my dreams and every
| moment I closed my eyes was a flush of memories or thoughts
| of work. It almost felt like my brain was trying to process a
| backlog of stress and that process was "flushing" those
| thoughts (or brain chemistry) out.
|
| I went hiking, read some, and mostly took it easy, walked
| around, ate and rested.
|
| It took at least 3-4 days of a 8 day trip for my brain to
| barely start calming down. I had to keep repeating the
| "simpler activities" and just put out of mind literally
| everything else. I literally had to "escape" from my normal
| life entirely.
|
| I don't say this to be run of the mill, I literally had this
| anecdotal experience but a few weeks ago.
|
| I felt a little more like I had a handle on myself after this
| break, but only in a "just almost barely" kind of way. In
| other words, I had just started to come out of my loops and
| my fog, when my trip ended.
|
| Just like the work had a lingering effect, so did taking the
| time off. I am back at work and finding myself going back to
| some of my loops, but my trip gave me a little break and
| opportunity to take some perspective.
|
| Therefore, my non-scientific anectodal recommendation is to
| study your own rhythm and see how it changes when you
| disconnect or take a break, especially if it includes an
| aspect of "slightly forced disconnecting". If you can learn
| to become more self aware of the rhythms you experience or
| fall susceptible to, it might give you a chance to subtley
| shift or do something actively to tweak them in a way that
| helps you.
|
| I think it helped me, at least temporarily.
| tharkun__ wrote:
| +100 if I could.
|
| What you say is especially true of someone in your role (or
| any higher up role), which in a small startup extends far
| down I would suppose.
|
| When I see the C-levels or even just a level up or sideways
| mention that they had to work late on this or that or had to
| have a meeting at 10pm or someone was pulled into a meeting
| with some C-level at 10pm I loose respect for those people
| really fast. Work regular hours. Get done what you can get
| done in those regular hours. Regular hours can mean 11 hours
| one day and then you take most of Friday off.
|
| There's two ways these people loose respect with me:
|
| If you have to work 12 hour days to get the same work done as
| other people, you are maybe not really good at your job or
| you do too much 'socializing' at work but it makes the actual
| hard working folks that just finish their work in a regular
| day look bad.
|
| Or you're the workaholic type that just can't stop. At least
| you're good at your job, perfect. But don't make actual hard
| working folks look bad.
| steveBK123 wrote:
| Yeah it's crazy. My wife was in final round of interviews,
| about to get an offer, and all seemed to be well, suddenly
| the hiring manager drops a bomb.. "The team is working 15
| hours/day right now, but it should go down as we onboard
| staff.. and the firm cares about work/life balance so we
| encourage everyone to take off 2 days per month out of
| their unlimited vacation".
|
| I mean wtf, if they are doing 15hr/day what are you going
| down to once you staff up.. 12hr/day? If your hiring
| manager is willing to work his team 15hr/days for months on
| end then how is he going to look at you trying to work
| 10hr/days?
|
| Note this is not a startup, but an organization with nearly
| 20k employees. This is not a lottery ticket job that if a
| product launches successfully she's going to walk away with
| career/life changing money. It's maybe a 15-20% raise so
| that she can work 50-80% more hours.
|
| Just so dysfunctional. She was super disappointed until we
| talked about it being a blessing in disguise. If he had
| come in with a lower number like "12 hours/day but going
| down" or the compensation was crazy, you would maybe try to
| talk yourself into it.. or worse if he didn't disclose
| hours and you took the job..
| mattlutze wrote:
| I too love having hard work to do and pouring myself into being
| a part of as much as I can.
|
| I have discovered that, when my personal life has suffered and
| waned, it's because I'm trying to be a part of too much of the
| work.
|
| The choice I've needed to make is whether I can give up some of
| the direct personal responsibility that I've internalized over
| the success of the program I run (big company).
|
| If you can't be aware of the limits to your personal capacity,
| you'll end up living in the exhausted, stress-hormone-overdosed
| purgatory of burnout land, your body rebelling against your
| refusal to "go home" at the end of the day.
|
| On the "things to do" side, I do better now that I keep a phone
| for work and don't put any work anything on my personal phone.
| I do carry both through the day, but I put the work one face
| down when I'm done and leave it on my desk until the next day.
|
| The work computer is similarly separate from where I'm writing
| right now, and it too goes on silent mode and closed when I'm
| done. I'll go as far some weeks to unplug it on Friday and tuck
| it away, just to really remind myself that I'm not on the
| clock.
| notexhausted wrote:
| Posting anon for obvious reasons.
|
| After 15yrs of aggressive, upward growth positions and three
| years of my own startup, I landed what seemed to be an awesome
| job at a Series A startup.
|
| The company is completely mismanaged, overstaffed, on a
| collision course, and yet the best job I ever had. I'm not a
| crook - so I do put in an honest 40hrs to collect my modest
| 200k salary (modest given my experience.)
|
| However, the company is so mismanaged by the C-Suite and so far
| gone there is no pressure to go beyond the 40hrs/week. The
| C-Suite is already destroying the firm, why bother plugging
| holes on a sinking ship on my spare time?
|
| I enjoy the work, my co-workers, but really enjoy the free
| evenings and free weekends. Best experience of my life while it
| lasts. No longer have headaches. Have friends that I spend time
| with. Enjoy the outdoors.
|
| I wish I could have the same at a company that was not
| mismanaged, because i'm sure it can happen. Our tech org is
| strong, just the MBAs in the CSuite cant seem to get out of our
| way.
| knodi wrote:
| If you don't figure out how to control this I'm afraid startups
| are not for you. Find a job somewhere you'll be happy with,
| without this stress of constant burden of startups.
|
| You need to stop killing your self over this.
| WontonDon wrote:
| Working on the things you love should energize you. Consider if
| you are truly passionate about the things you are currently
| working on right now.
|
| If you are having fun and are genuinely building something
| cool, you'll be very productive. The second order effect is
| that you'll be more financially successful(stable family) and
| happy(mental health).
| aabhay wrote:
| I don't have any advice for you, but I can at least say that
| I'm in a similar boat. I have periods in my past/present where
| some big challenge lies ahead and my team and I need to sprint
| HARD to meet it.
|
| I originally used to see these moments like a soldier preparing
| for battle, believing that on the other side that things would
| be great and I would be proud of the grind. Instead, I sorta
| look back at those times with a big 'meh'. If there was
| success, it wasn't due to the grind. If there was failure, the
| grind made it worse. And it put everything else I cared about
| on the back burner -- relationships, health, hobbies, friends.
|
| In some ways, I feel that these cycles of grind are partially
| my destiny, they're when I've done my most challenging and
| perhaps meaningful work. But it doesn't match up to my
| expectations and nowadays I see them as a kind of crutch for
| not having a better strategy of doing consistently great work.
|
| Wondering if anyone has any similar feelings or experiences.
| wjossey wrote:
| Hey! You're not alone.
|
| I had huge work life (self induced) challenges for 8 or so
| years at the start of my career. Similar story to you but not
| as a founder- I just worked 80+ hours a week by default. Nobody
| forced me to do it, just my motor.
|
| I worked with a psychotherapist for 4 years, once a week, with
| this being the predominant focus of our time together. She was
| immensely helpful and between the regular maintenance of those
| visits and her helping improve my self awareness, I now no
| longer blitz myself week after week. I certainly still have
| that motor in me, but I know how to divert it to other
| activities and focuses like my family, hobbies, and myself. I
| still love to work because I love what I do, but it's not how I
| define my life.
|
| Get help. This is sufficiently a problem where it's impacting
| your relationships with others, which is a huge red flag.
| cosmojg wrote:
| This is definitely the best advice offered thus far. If you
| haven't sought out professional help yet, give it a whirl and
| see what happens. For many, it's surprisingly effective and
| often life-changing.
| wut-wut wrote:
| Excellent advice. I wish had more votes to give this comment.
|
| I had a similar experience. Working with a therapist helped
| me learn boundaries and eventually grok (with support,
| considerable patience, and repetition from her) that I was
| addicted to 'saving the day', to solving the problem, the
| pace, chaos, the deluge of information and technical
| challenges. I was energized by it. I felt smarter when I was
| in the eye of this storm. It took me quite a long time to
| fully integrate and understand that working those hours and
| wearing 'the cape' is toxic to yourself AND others. I assumed
| that my efforts were wanted, appreciated, and valued. Only in
| hindsight, did I 'notice' it had the opposite effect. My
| intentions didn't matter, the high I felt, the passion, and
| manic energy I radiated was easily misunderstood. I realized
| too late that my boss and many of my colleagues resented me
| for these behaviors. It was decsribed as exhausting by a
| friend. It takes time to learn new habits, to change, and
| learn boundaries and how to be present. For me, it was worth
| the effort.
| monological wrote:
| You've become addicted to the dopamine loop of crushing tasks.
| It's become your "god". You lie to yourself that what your
| doing is good and worthwhile. You're anticipating the
| adrenaline rush of that tantalizing future success. You
| masochistically grind because you know the payout is coming...
|
| The only way out is to zoom out and look at the bigger picture.
| You have to listen to your heart and follow what it says. What
| that really means is, don't do anything that your inner person
| doesn't want to really do. Otherwise you'll just be stuck in
| this endless Pavlovian, button pushing trap called startups.
| goalieca wrote:
| Are you having fun?
| TriNetra wrote:
| Since last year, I've been changing course of my business to
| more product driven than consultancy. This has naturally put me
| into situations of real stress that causes churning in the
| stomach. The feeling stays for days if not dealt. ON couple of
| occasions I've successfully eliminated it using the Black Lotus
| app [0] RARE framework [1]. In the first instance, I chose the
| goal of being mindful and being stress free for the other. It
| combines a guided meditation specific for the goal, a breathing
| exercise, a RAK and some other tiny activities that should not
| take more than 20-30 minutes a day - but are really powerful.
|
| In another occasion, I reflected on the cause of the stress
| holding conversation with the mind (sitting in meditative
| cross-legged pose) - what the worse can happen, what are other
| options etc. etc., and the stress subsided. Basically thoughts
| are also a form of energy which needs to be released. Either
| you can channelize them with good meditation or spent them with
| the bad one, in both cases you do get to feel relax. If you
| don't do either of these, you end up feeling restless and the
| more time they remain in your system the more damage they
| cause.
|
| 0: https://www.blacklotus.app/ 1:
| https://www.blacklotus.app/about-rare/
| beckman466 wrote:
| > I've already alienated my partner enough that I have to move
| out. My whole life has become devoured by this puzzle
|
| I'm so sorry to hear this. When I was facing similar
| circumstances the most absurd part of it was that I thought
| these things were my fault. It isn't. Mental health has been
| depoliticized and it's roots obscured. Mark Fisher writes:
|
| > The UK's National Health Service (NHS), like the education
| system and other public services, has been forced to try to
| deal with the social and psychic damage caused by the
| deliberate destruction of solidarity and security. Where once
| workers would have turned to trade unions when they were put
| under increasing stress, now they are encouraged to go to their
| GP or, if they are lucky enough to be able to be get one on the
| NHS, a therapist.
|
| > It would be facile to argue that every single case of
| depression can be attributed to economic or political causes;
| but it is equally facile to maintain - as the dominant
| approaches to depression do - that the roots of all depression
| must always lie either in individual brain chemistry or in
| early childhood experiences. Most psychiatrists assume that
| mental illnesses such as depression are caused by chemical
| imbalances in the brain, which can be treated by drugs. But
| most psychotherapy doesn't address the social causation of
| mental illness either.
|
| > The radical therapist David Smail argues that Margaret
| Thatcher's view that there's no such thing as society, only
| individuals and their families, finds "an unacknowledged echo
| in almost all approaches to therapy". Therapies such as
| cognitive behaviour therapy combine a focus on early life with
| the self-help doctrine that individuals can become masters of
| their own destiny. The idea is "with the expert help of your
| therapist or counsellor, you can change the world you are in
| the last analysis responsible for, so that it no longer cause
| you distress" - Smail calls this view "magical voluntarism".
|
| > Depression is the shadow side of entrepreneurial culture,
| what happens when magical voluntarism confronts limited
| opportunities. As psychologist Oliver James put it in his book
| The Selfish Capitalist, "in the entrepreneurial fantasy
| society," we are taught "that only the affluent are winners and
| that access to the top is open to anyone willing to work hard
| enough, regardless of their familial, ethnic or social
| background - if you do not succeed, there is only one person to
| blame." It's high time that the blame was placed elsewhere. We
| need to reverse the privatisation of stress and recognise that
| mental health is a political issue.
|
| Source:
| https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jul/16/mental...
| diob wrote:
| I had the same issue until I went to therapy. I would suggest
| trying that out. They can help you think differently (in my
| case I grew up in a very dysfunctional family, look up adult
| children of alcoholics, we're often workaholics), and in some
| cases you might want to consider trying a medication for
| anxiety like Zoloft.
|
| It may seem weird, but I didn't realize just how much it
| affected me until I got on medication myself. Now I feel free.
| I can still do great work and focus, but I'm not compelled to.
| I'm happy to focus on myself as well.
| charbonneau wrote:
| Ryokan, a Zen master, lived the simplest kind of life in a
| little hut at the foot of a mountain. One evening a thief
| visited the hut only to discover there was nothing to steal.
|
| Ryokan returned and caught him. "You have come a long way to
| visit me," he told the prowler, "and you should not return
| empty-handed. Please take my clothes as a gift."
|
| The thief was bewildered. He took the clothes and slunk away.
|
| Ryoken sat naked, watching the moon. "Poor fellow," he mused,
| "I wish I could have given him this beautiful moon."
| Nabati wrote:
| Can't wear a beautiful moon.
| tobmlt wrote:
| "Winning" at this work is not worth "dying" at life. But that
| is just "words words words" and I cannot make it mean for you
| what it means for me. Self introspection is nonlinear and non-
| rational to a real extent. Love letter to hacker news: neither
| of those things is bad. Just different than engineering
| thinking. Do not seek to engineer your mind's thinking, if you
| seek lasting happiness. Instead work to find your innermost
| workings (feelings fears ideals etc) and integrate them into
| your conscious day. Integrate fear? Why yes. Do not push it
| down...
|
| Back to the task at hand. More linearly now: Why do you love
| this work you do? Ask the hardest questions and seek the
| hardest answers. Maybe you are on the right path for yourself.
| I don't think you would have posted this if you really believed
| it.
|
| I love my work too, and something about it is killing me. It is
| not the thing I love (the science, the math, the physics, the
| code) that is killing me, but the toxic nature of the
| environment in which I seem to have to practice it in order to
| make a living.
|
| For me, there is a riddle to be solved. The things i love are
| not toxic, but they are mixed with things that are. My workaday
| life is heavy with toxicity. Can the good be separated from the
| toxic? Or do I have to go and become a river guide, bum, or
| base jumper? Perhaps I just need to meditate on these things.
| (I've turned my comment intentionally at myself, because I
| cannot be so hubristic as to know what specific advice to offer
| you) I will say, if you have to work in an environment of toxic
| stress, the first fear to root out is the fear of failure. Make
| peace with that fear in the strongest way. Your fear blocks
| your success. Find this way, if you can: Work as one who is at
| play. Otherwise quit and make another way to work on the things
| you love which is more healthy.
| pilooch wrote:
| Confidence is the key, but it is sometimes out of reach, even
| if only momentarily.
|
| So rationalizing is one way: about competition first, it
| doesn't matter (really, like... really), whatever you are doing
| with focus will end up different than what others do (the state
| space is too large), and the rest is not within your hands. No
| need to worry then, it's a recurrent, automatic, bad habit.
|
| Now, overall and most useful I believe, what we are doing in
| tech does not matter, it'll be outdated in months, years,
| whatever. What matters is the people we are working and
| spending time with. People first, tech second.
|
| Good luck, serenity is within reach, especially in tech, it's a
| matter of body and mind working well together.
|
| Oh and exercising is fundamental, walk, run, dance, jump, ...
| browningstreet wrote:
| There's so much material on this subject. It's been discussed
| many times right here at HN. But you are externalizing yourself
| for your startup, you're experiencing harm, and you still want
| an externality to solve the problem for you. You make yourself
| a victim. You'll have to sort yourself, by and as yourself, to
| stop this. You have to really see yourself, to start.
| afarrell wrote:
| > by yourself
|
| But you can have a friend with you to talk this through. You
| are not alone, but you need a phone call... not a forum of
| internet strangers.
| brnt wrote:
| > I love my work, but I don't like how it makes me feel.
|
| Some choices are more exclusive than others. Life > work.
| Spooky23 wrote:
| I don't run a company, but run a large division of one. I
| describe it as a psychological theme park -- you're king of the
| world one day, moron the next day, taking care of your people
| the next.
|
| The only thing that has helped me when I feel that way is to
| take a leap of faith and place trust in others. That thing I
| think I have to personally oversee really means that I'm not
| trusting others. That trust problem is usually because I've
| failed as a leader to communicate. So push yourself to do that,
| and when your comfortable, push yourself to do more.
|
| The other thing, which I think men are more vulnerable to, is
| be careful about defining yourself by work. Your partner or
| children or whatever need to be a part of what defines _you_ to
| _you_.
|
| My dad's recent passing highlighted that for me - he spent 30
| years and accomplished a lot in an field that impacted many
| people positively. But when friends and family all came
| together... that just wasn't something that mattered. The
| little (and big) things that he did for people mattered. One
| person somehow travelled from abroad during COVID to pay
| respects and share how my dad helped him out in a small way
| that redefined his life.
|
| I'd ask that you just think about what matters. Deal with the
| stuff that has to be dealt with, but don't let it define you.
| Shipping some feature is what you do, not who you are.
| sjg007 wrote:
| Sounds like you need help figuring out how to create
| boundaries. Start by practicing saying "no". If someone asks
| you to do something, say no. Keep at it.
| treme wrote:
| Two bandaid solutions for dealing with stress I'd recommend
|
| Yoga Nidra - one of best ways calm your nerve system
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_noquwycq78
|
| EMDR https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DALbwI7m1vM& it's going to
| sound crazy but just give it a shot. Just focus on the moving
| dot when feeling extremely stressed. Check out the top comments
| for rough how to guide, but just focusing to follow the ball
| alone will being immediate relief.
|
| science behind it
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZVw-9ThmSM&t=31s
|
| Long term solutions: Stoic philosophy... Imagining worst case
| scenarios playing out, and making peace with it. in your case,
| worst case is you fail and pick yourself back up working as
| software engineer with great salary. You'll manage ok.
|
| Figuring out your stress-destress equation to figure out a
| sustainable balance of workload and sticking to it(I imagine
| very difficult to do in most startups).
|
| Seeking professional help.
| apatters wrote:
| I am an owner/founder who has experienced similar anxieties and
| the answer was cognitive behavioral therapy and drugs, both
| managed by a good therapist.
|
| The CBT can effect long term changes in your thinking and
| behavior, and temper your anxieties permanently.
|
| The drugs can make the anxieties disappear temporarily and
| immediately and are best used infrequently in situations where
| the price of impaired performance is high. (Many doctors
| overprescribe them imo.)
|
| It took several years of slow progress but probably 75% of my
| anxieties are gone. I don't overwork myself, I don't worry
| about things unless it benefits me to do so, and I rarely miss
| out on a good night's sleep.
|
| You can change.
| BrandoElFollito wrote:
| Working in information security means waiting for the disaster to
| strike. When there is no disaster we do not exist.
|
| This drove me to burnout at some point and I decided to carefully
| distribute the fucks I give (this comes from the book "the subtle
| art of not giving a fuck").
|
| I never check anything work related outside of work hours. My
| phone is silenced during the night.
|
| I am actively trying to be assertive in meeting hours, refusing
| the ones outside of work hours. This is probably the most
| complicated part.
| adrianmonk wrote:
| Things that help me some:
|
| (1) Remembering that my happiness matters. If you are very
| determined to achieve a goal, or if you were brought up to
| believe that your achievement and your worth as a person are one
| and the same, or if you have a strong sense of duty and self-
| sacrifice, it's easy to lose sight of this. Being happy and
| enjoying life is something everyone deserves some measure of, and
| it's should be one of your goals alongside the others.
|
| (2) Distracting myself. Intentionally. Distracting yourself may
| sound negative, but it's not about wasting my time with
| something. It's about how, just as nature abhors a vacuum, my
| brain doesn't really shut off and stop processing stuff; instead,
| it processes whatever is on hand. If I tell myself to stop
| thinking about work but give myself nothing else to think about,
| then my thoughts will quickly return to work. But if I find some
| engrossing activity to do, I'll have different thoughts that can
| out-compete work thoughts. (Incidentally, this is often better at
| restoring mental energy than unwinding by vegging out.)
|
| (3) Avoiding putting in hours for reasons other than
| productivity. For example, in a competitive environment, everyone
| else puts in long hours, so you'd better too. Sometimes
| unavoidable, but there's a law of diminishing returns. Aim for
| enough hours to be on par, but don't take it beyond that. Another
| example is impostor syndrome: if you feel that you're not as
| smart or talented as others, you can compensate with "dedication"
| (grinding). But that's actually just insecurity.
| captainmisery wrote:
| When I joined my current employer, I got a company phone. I
| thought: "great, now I can get rid of my private phone. This
| saves me money!".
|
| On the best things I ever did, was come back on that decision a
| couple of years ago. I was checking my work email in the weekends
| or in the evenings.
|
| I bought a cheap phone and just turn off my work phone in the
| weekends and don't look at it anymore when I come home.
| deeblering4 wrote:
| What works well for me is configuring my work email account but
| keeping it switched off on my phone, and setting chat to notify
| on directs and mentions only.
|
| If for some reason I need it, I can easily switch it on. But I
| haven't needed to do that in years, I simply clear my inbox each
| morning and periodically through the work day.
| redisman wrote:
| Setting boundaries is a huge secret skill. I force people to
| explicitly tell me that i must do something extra and it almost
| never happens and I get to work a 35-40h week.
|
| Boss messages me to look at something after hours? I won't read
| it. If it's a problem they can explicitly tell me that they
| expect me to be available at all hours and then we'll have that
| discussion. And in that I'll say that it's not acceptable for
| me but I can split my day in two if it's important for me to be
| available late in the day. If they want me to do calls at 5am
| I'll say it's doable and then I'll end my day at 1pm of course
| minimaster wrote:
| Software engineer: I was on the verge of being burned out and was
| sent to the emergency room with very strange symptoms.
|
| So: I separated my work phone from my private phone. My private
| phone as no apps that are in anyway connected to my work.
|
| When I'm home, my family is my job.
| unixhero wrote:
| Hard pass on startups
| dredmorbius wrote:
| What's your preferred alternative then?
| unixhero wrote:
| Megacorps or completely alternative things like dive store,
| backpacker, climbing gym, mountaineering hotel
| dredmorbius wrote:
| Any experience or thoughts on NGOs or government work?
|
| Would megacorps include the G-MAFIA or exclude current tech
| giants?
| kirubakaran wrote:
| I the acronym G-MAFIA but which company is I?
| dredmorbius wrote:
| Instacart?
|
| It's sort of ... Irrellevent ... though you could go
| through the list of Unicorns:
| https://www.cbinsights.com/research-unicorn-companies
| addsubtract wrote:
| I'm not always great about this myself, but I think a lot of this
| is self-imposed/external deadlines. What I like to make sure I
| remember is that there is always more work. Don't rush yourself
| cause you'll just be given more. If approaching deadlines you
| can't meet with a reasonable work life balance - cut the scope,
| break it into smaller chunks, and inform stakeholders. Set
| expectations that you aren't going to complete things on a
| frantic 60 hour+ schedule. Work finds those who are competent.
| Slow down and maybe be okay with not exceeding expectations all
| the time.
| MattGaiser wrote:
| Couldn't work just be more interesting in that context?
|
| At least for myself, weddings/funerals/etc are relatively
| obligatory social events where I do not know that many people. I
| will attend and there will be some interesting parts, but
| otherwise I am mostly just a spectator there. After a couple
| minutes, any active problem becomes more interesting.
|
| I was in a meeting this week where I wasn't really a participant
| and there is also a contest where I can win $50 if I propose a
| new way to serve rotisserie chicken. I spent the meeting thinking
| of ways to serve chicken. Not because the problem was important,
| but because it was the main active option open to me.
| emerged wrote:
| I just recently decided to draw a line in the sand here. I don't
| want to be interrupted during weekend dinners with fire alarms. I
| don't cause fire alarms, I don't have the requisite extreme
| compensation to justify the stress (and don't really want it), so
| no.
|
| People will often squeeze whatever they can out of you until you
| push back. So push back.
| Frost1x wrote:
| R&D is much like startups in this respect, as many have
| connected. The lines between work and life easily blur. In a
| startup environment, especially if you're one of the key
| stakeholders, you have a high incentive structure nestling you
| along. If you succeed and maintain, you'll be financially
| rewarded and secured. You could even become very rich.
|
| Research on the other hand often doesn't have this same
| incentive. If I succeed, it just means I might get another grant
| or make another funding cycle on what I'm already working on. It
| means I'll have income/"a job"--the incentive is more of a
| disincentive: you won't be scrambling to find a job or in a
| financially unstable predicament. Maybe you get partial ownership
| of a patent or royalties through your employer, maybe all you get
| it a meaningless accomplishment award or something.
|
| So while this connection _is_ similar, it 's often not the same.
| This is why I advise most people I speak with to absolutely not
| pursue research work unless it's their passion they need. I have
| no problem "turning off" work. I can very very easily separate
| problem solving or "lab-like" work the author mentions from my
| life. With that said, I have the _exact same problem_ the author
| has. I find myself at dinner thinking through new approaches,
| playing thought experiments of how to tackle a problem or
| approach it differently, and so on. Sometimes, not often, it 's
| because the core underlying problem is so intellectually
| stimulating and interesting to me that I can't help but go
| through the motions. Then, and only then, am I myself to blame.
|
| Most of the time however, in the research world, you're not
| working on your passion unless you're at the absolute top of your
| field and have tremendous tenure. Instead, you're thinking about
| problems you could get funded for and making sure you can
| continue to get funded for (hopefully they're _kind of close_ to
| what you actually wanted to do).
|
| You're sitting around thinking about these things because if you
| only work on them from 9-5, you absolutely will fail, guaranteed
| because there are starving post docs that aren't far behind you
| willing to slave their lives away--research like any passion
| industry has a highly competitive labor market.
|
| In order to succeed you have to work a significant amount of
| hours simply thinking and rethinking about approaches to problem,
| that way when you arrive in the 9-5 case, you have fruitful
| approaches to get you moving along and meet deadlines. Someone
| else may promise a similar vein of work for half what you say you
| can do it for. People promise the moon and deliver a broken
| pickup truck.
|
| So while I agree with the authors observation, I disagree with
| the cause. I think in R&D, the underlying problem is how research
| is funded, conducted, and the unrealistic (I'll say _absurd_
| these days) expectations that exist. For startups, there 's a
| reward incentive and I encourage anyone who is interested in R&D
| who _can_ pursue their research through a business model do so.
| At least then if and when you succeed with the tremendous effort,
| you 'll be rewarded vs skate by.
|
| Research environments used to acknowledge these shortcomings and
| provide stability and understanding that the process is
| inherently high risk and the tradeoff you made was you got to
| pursue your interest but could still be financially stable--you
| won't be rich but you'll have reasonable work life balance,
| someone else might get rich, they might also lose boatloads of
| money--they play the reward/risk game and you do the interesting
| work. If one approach failed, here's why, and that's OK, come in
| tomorrow and we'll try something different. You won't need to
| look for a new position or end up starving on the streets. Now,
| business has influenced R&D so much that it often is treated
| exactly like a startup in terms of risk but with limited reward,
| so you're better off just tell them to stuff it and at least have
| a potential reward with your risk.
| sys_64738 wrote:
| Startups are hard so they need people with no outside
| life/interests. That's why folk under 26 are usually the ones
| holding the spade as they have no family of their own and don't
| know any better.
| nathias wrote:
| The great thing about not overworking is that you actually get
| more done after you stop wasting energy on pretending to work. It
| doesn't really matter if you are pretending for others or
| yourself.
| DerekBickerton wrote:
| I agree. By not aiming for the target, you hit it repeatedly.
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