[HN Gopher] Anal oxygen administration may save lives
___________________________________________________________________
Anal oxygen administration may save lives
Author : helsinkiandrew
Score : 164 points
Date : 2021-05-15 08:56 UTC (14 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.economist.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.economist.com)
| nabla9 wrote:
| The idiom 'Blow Smoke Up Your Ass' comes from tobacco enema. It
| seems that they almost got it right. Instead of smoke, oxygen
| should be used.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_smoke_enema
|
| >A tobacco smoke enema, an insufflation of tobacco smoke into the
| rectum, i.e. as an enema, was employed by the indigenous peoples
| of North America to stimulate respiration, injecting the smoke
| with a rectal tube.[1][2]
|
| >Later, Europeans emulated the Americans.[3] Tobacco
| resuscitation kits consisting of a pair of bellows and a tube
| were provided by the Royal Humane Society of London and placed at
| various points along the Thames.[4] European physicians
| furthermore employed these enemas for a range of ailments.[3
| isatty wrote:
| I wish paywalled articles were banned from HN. Just because I can
| bypass it does not mean it's worth the effort.
| [deleted]
| mateo1 wrote:
| Unless you've been living under a rock, you should have noticed
| that most news publications are now paywalled. It's annoying
| but you can't just ban journalism. Blogs are dead, smaller
| websites are drowned by spam and new search engine
| "algorithms", and if you want a somewhat authoritative news
| piece you'll find yourself increasingly having to go behind a
| paywall. What would be nice to see is a universal micropayment
| system instead of ads and subscriptions, but after a decade or
| so of nobody implementing one, be glad you can still read what
| you can without having to spend $200 a month on a dozen
| subscriptions to cover your needs.
| StavrosK wrote:
| There is one, called, err, coil. Coil.com
| imwillofficial wrote:
| This is exactly what Brave is somewhat successfully solving
| with BAT token.
| frereubu wrote:
| The Economist is particularly easy though - just turn off
| JavaScript.
| [deleted]
| kblev wrote:
| Is there a tool to bypass paywalls?
| Garvey wrote:
| Pasting the article URL into the search over at archive.is
| seems to work for a lot of them
| abrookewood wrote:
| On Firefox, I use Bypass Paywalls Clean
| gandalfian wrote:
| I hear some scurilious dogs put the link into outline.com and
| often get the article text. No comments though.
| ullevaal wrote:
| You could consider buying a subscription? I often see links on
| HN from places I subscribe to, so maybe the people who are
| voting are actually reading these articles and want to share
| and discuss them with the rest of the community?
| freshair wrote:
| Just how many $5/mo subscriptions do you expect people buy,
| and how much does that all add up to per year?
|
| The privilege here is real.
| [deleted]
| ullevaal wrote:
| I don't expect people to do anything, I'm just trying to
| give perspective as to why someone might upvote an article
| they enjoyed.
| presentation wrote:
| I just wish I didn't need to buy separate subscriptions for
| each publication. If I'm only reading one off articles from
| each based on others' recommendations the individual
| publication subscription doesn't really express what I'm
| trying to achieve.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| numpad0 wrote:
| Quality journalism needs to be paid, though paid how is an open
| question
| creshal wrote:
| Making people buy a subscription for every single newspaper
| on the planet is definitely not a working solution.
| [deleted]
| TaylorAlexander wrote:
| I believe the liquid they are mentioning was featured in the
| movie The Abyss. It is painful for humans to breathe the liquid.
| But apparently giving you an enema with it works! Amazing.
| raducu wrote:
| Makes me chuckle thinking of the next movie about future divers
| having tubes going into the rectum, not the mouth.
| Eyght wrote:
| I'm thinking that it could work as an emergency rectal oxygen
| enema for astronauts in distress. It ought to be very compact
| compared to pressured gas. Just push 'oxyjet' and don't
| forget to clench after.
| lamontcg wrote:
| "Bend over and cough, Bud"
| ljm wrote:
| Two trapped divers only have one rebreather left between the
| two of them. The conscious diver clenches his butt as he
| removes the tube and plugs it into his partner's ass for a
| few seconds.
|
| I'm getting Requiem for a Dream vibes from this.
| TaylorAlexander wrote:
| To boldly go where no one has gone before!
| mPReDiToR wrote:
| Star Trek: The Infinitive Split
|
| And you thought Master Yoda had grammatical issues.
| ARandomerDude wrote:
| Anal oxygen? No thanks, I'll take the coffin.
| zoomablemind wrote:
| > _"...They settled on liquid perfluorocarbons, which can absorb
| large amounts of oxygen and are often used as a blood substitute
| or to assist the ventilation of premature babies.... "_
|
| Reminded me of the scene from an old underwater sci-fi flic (?
| was it 'The Abyss' https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0096754/), where
| the deep-divers had to learn how to 'breathe' the oxygenated
| liquid instead of air.
|
| Speaking of liquid, there was also an example of 'fluid
| animation' (is it the term?), later also seen in Terminator 2
| (the unkillable and self-reassembling T-1000) and other movies.
| l3s2d wrote:
| This reminded me of scene, from a sci-fi book (Arthur C.
| Clarke, maybe), about a naked race on the moon. The racers
| filled their lungs with some sort of oxygenated liquid.
| lazyant wrote:
| Yes it was "The Abyss", see the rat scene:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6hw4dGhm8Y
|
| From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Abyss "The breathing
| fluid used in the film actually exists but has only been
| thoroughly investigated in animals.[5] Over the previous 20
| years it had been tested on several animals, who survived. The
| rat shown in the film was actually breathing fluid and survived
| unharmed"
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_breathing
| sitkack wrote:
| I could see a low pressure breathing fluid being advantageous
| for space travel. I wonder how long a mammal could live in
| that environment. Now if we can just retain our gills.
| canadianfella wrote:
| Retain?
| danpalmer wrote:
| The idea of breathing one of these heavily oxygenated liquids
| has been around for a while and I believe even tested on live
| animals. I can't remember if it was tested on humans.
|
| In theory it all works and has great benefits for breathing in
| high pressure environments. In reality I believe the issues
| encountered were: getting past the feeling of drowning at the
| beginning, needing very strong lungs for even normal breathing
| rates, and then transitioning back to air being problematic.
| zoomablemind wrote:
| > ...transitioning back to air being problematic.
|
| Yeah, this seems to be quite an obstacle, giving the fact how
| long it may take for lungs to fully expectorate the mucus
| after a bout of pneumonia.
| skynet-9000 wrote:
| In this case, this gas would be injected directly into the
| rectum, so you could switch back to lungs as soon as the
| lungs were clear (or run both simultaneously). At least,
| that's the theory.
| [deleted]
| NtrllyIntrstd wrote:
| Butt at what cost!!!
| NiceWayToDoIT wrote:
| First thing I needed to check that I have not woke up in
| alternate reality and that today is not 1 April, after I
| remembered that some drug addicts use similar techniques to get
| high.
| batekush wrote:
| Sir, I object. Not everyone who puts drugs in their butt is an
| addict. Some of us can plug a pill at a full-moon party every
| so often and go about the rest of our lives as usual thank-you-
| very-much.
| abacadaba wrote:
| Some Supreme Court justices as well :)
| jjeaff wrote:
| I don't believe that was the intended definition of hoof
| according to testimony by several of his contemporaries.
| imwillofficial wrote:
| Boofing some O2 for fun and profit
| sn41 wrote:
| Ah, the great suppository of wisdom.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oep_DPDy6xw
| henearkr wrote:
| CPR is on the way to getting even more awkward...
| rapnie wrote:
| But less covid risk I presume.
| ddxxdd wrote:
| More risk* [0]
|
| [0] https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210128/china-using-
| anal-sw...
| [deleted]
| zelienople wrote:
| We've been ventilating rats with anal perfluorocarbons for years
| now and all we've really learned is that ten percent of them seem
| to like it.
| TchoBeer wrote:
| Wild. Citation?
| vsef wrote:
| From this classic: https://youtu.be/6tZar4wRP40
| Engineering-MD wrote:
| I suspect this was a tongue in cheek comment
| [deleted]
| TheManInThePub wrote:
| I confess my first thought was mixing oxygen in a methane
| environment inside the body isn't ideal.
|
| And this isn't a joke..... for example, cyclopropane is an
| excellent anaesthetic gas but no longer used due to the explosion
| risk. I believe (?) there was a case of a patients throat
| catching fire on the operating table.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inhalational_anesthetic#Gases
| sm0ss117 wrote:
| If my choice is between definitely dying of boring old hypoxia
| and maybe dying in a cool explosion I know which one I'm
| picking.
|
| But to be serious it's risk management and if the patient is
| definitely going to die of low oxygen then the patient having a
| risk of dying another way is still a lower risk.
| pessimizer wrote:
| If I'm going to die from a small internal explosion, I'd
| rather it start at the other side of the tube. If my guts
| explode, I might still have a few more days to live.
| dtech wrote:
| I don't think the trace amounts of methane humans produce is
| enough to be any real danger...
| amluto wrote:
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intracolonic_explosion
| meowface wrote:
| >An intracolonic explosion or colonic gas explosion is an
| explosion inside the colon of a person due to ignition of
| explosive gases such as methane. This can happen during
| colonic exploration, as a result of the electrical nature
| of a colonoscope. The result can be acute colonic
| perforation, which can be fatal.
|
| Welp.
| jgalt212 wrote:
| some frat boys beg to differ
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fart_lighting
| nabla9 wrote:
| Mixing oxygen and methane is OK. Just don't introduce fire.
|
| Methane in surgery can lead to flames when surgeons use
| electrocautery.
| stephenr wrote:
| Is this a real thing or is someone just blowing hot air up my
| ass?
| nailer wrote:
| Oddly enough it also seems possible to feed people through their
| anus, it was a humiliation tactic used in Abu Ghraib
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/dec/09/cia-report-r...
| seattle_spring wrote:
| There was a documentary[1][2] about this process.
|
| [1] https://youtu.be/Ug5jVUv5V_A
|
| [2] actually a South Park episode. NSFW
| jsdevtom wrote:
| I'd rather just die
| flemhans wrote:
| Can this be used 'recreationally' or to promote faster healing,
| as an alternative for those (Justin Bieber) who sleep in
| Hyperbaric Oxygen Chambers?
| skynet-9000 wrote:
| tl;dr: researchers discovered that pumping liquid
| perfluorocarbons, which can absorb large amounts of oxygen,
| directly into the anus of the tested mammals (not humans, yet)
| can help them survive even in low oxygen (or even completely
| deprived of oxygen, for 4 times longer) environments.
|
| The idea is that this will enable a less invasive way of
| ventilation for oxygen-deprived patients (i.e., covid-19) than
| tracheal intubation. It's even possible a patient could be
| ventilated from (pardon) both ends simultaneously.
| fasteddie31003 wrote:
| Look up the old procedure of rectal fumigation
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_smoke_enema . There may be
| some actual benefits to blowing smoke up you ass.
| data_ders wrote:
| I hope "boofing" becomes the medical term for this but spelled
| "bo2fing" for short.
|
| https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Boofing
| evan_ wrote:
| The latest season of The Expanse featured a character who had
| been exposed to vacuum revived by an injection of
| "hyperoxygenated blood" in the arm. This makes me think they just
| got the method of administration slightly wrong.
|
| In the future spaceship air locks will include a box of emergency
| oxygen suppositories.
| shkkmo wrote:
| Not at all. It is rather am extension of EMCO tech that exists
| today that can oxygenate blood externally before it is returned
| to the body.
| skynet-9000 wrote:
| Why don't we do that now instead of ventilating?
| PeterisP wrote:
| ECMO was used for some Covid patients, but the machines are
| even more rare and the process even more tricky than
| ventilation.
| arch-ninja wrote:
| Obligatory futurama:
| https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f6/40/e2/f640e25abd05e07442c6...
| pestatije wrote:
| So they got O2 into the bloodstream. How does the CO2 get out of
| it?
| ralusek wrote:
| Also rectum.
| stuaxo wrote:
| Via the lungs ?
| pfdietz wrote:
| It also dissolves in PFCs. Presumably the PFCs are flushed
| through the gut and the CO2 is carried out by the outflow.
| Outside, I imagine the CO2 would come off when the PFC is
| aerated for reuse.
| SandroG wrote:
| It's funny how the title of this post keeps changing.
| clort wrote:
| The rectum is an interesting place. You can apparently also
| absorb water there, if you are severely dehydrated and unable to
| hold anything down (eg seasick). All you need, the saying goes,
| is a funnel and a friend..
|
| full disclosure: I've not tried that!
| andy_ppp wrote:
| I'm sure a plastic water bottle and a few yoga poses will
| suffice, go for it!
| Clampower wrote:
| Your anus is not actually just a hole you can just pour
| things into. It seals itself. A funnel is of the essence when
| trying to pour liquids into the rectal cavity.
| skynet-9000 wrote:
| Sounds useful for Ebola patients. Dehydration is apparently the
| thing that kills you the fastest. However, it could be very
| hazardous to your (very loving) friend.
| tgsovlerkhgsel wrote:
| That's what PPE is for.
| jvm_ wrote:
| These people spent 37 days in a 9ft dinghy in the ocean. A
| ladder rung, plus the rain water mixed with turtle guts from
| the bottom of the boat saved their lives.
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/aug/22/shipwre...
| bob_theslob646 wrote:
| "What kept them going was grit, determination and turtle
| blood. "You have to knock it back quickly, otherwise it sets
| into blancmange," Douglas explains. Plus it's got an
| "aftertaste that makes you want to wretch". Their mother
| rubbed turtle oil on the salt-water boils, and tried to keep
| them all hydrated with makeshift enema tubes made from the
| rungs of a ladder. "It was her nursing background. She knew
| the water at the bottom of the dinghy was poisonous if taken
| orally because it was a mixture of rain water, blood and
| turtle offal. But if you take it rectally, the poison doesn't
| go through the digestive system."
|
| Unbelievable!
| nobodyandproud wrote:
| Ah, those nurses.
|
| Tangent time: Florence Nightingale was an early pioneer
| (maybe the first?) of data-driven medical policies.
|
| She grew up in a time when women hit a ceiling pretty
| quickly, despite being extremely competent and in her case
| mathematically gifted.
| saberdancer wrote:
| Bear Grylls (I know) - showed that you can "drink" unsafe water
| by using funnel and a friend.
|
| Not sure if this is accurate, it's a show after all, but it
| doesn't seem too crazy.
| NelsonMinar wrote:
| Works for alcohol too; keyword "butt chug". Can result in
| alcohol poisoning if you dose too much.
| pantalaimon wrote:
| Works for other drugs too, it's known as boofing.
| johnisgood wrote:
| Or "plugging" if we are talking about other drugs.
|
| > The insertion or other voluntary introduction of foreign
| matter into the anus or vaginal cavity for the sole purpose
| of recreational misuse (or use) of said item/substance.
| Similar to butt chugging, with the exception of using non-
| liquidous matter instead of alcoholic beverages.
| pengaru wrote:
| > Works for other drugs too, it's known as boofing.
|
| isn't that slang for anal sex
| jjeaff wrote:
| Nah, according to a current supreme court judge, to boof
| is simply to pass gas.
| seg_lol wrote:
| Minority ruling from a lower court.
| klmadfejno wrote:
| We're pouring liquids into our butts right? What's the friend
| for? Can't one do that on their own?
| phone8675309 wrote:
| It's really easier with a friend, especially the reach-around
| part.
| sillysaurusx wrote:
| Your comment is hilarious. I had the same question. Thanks.
| diplodocusaur wrote:
| Indeed! Fecal transplants are fascinating in their results too.
| ddxxdd wrote:
| I have heard, from some corny Discovery Channel survival show,
| that the bottom can filter out salt from the water. So if
| you're surrounded by ocean with no fresh water, the bottom is
| the place to go.
| stevula wrote:
| Wouldn't the water seek isotonic equilibrium by moving to the
| side of the membrane with higher salt concentration? I don't
| think that would work in your body's favor.
| pestatije wrote:
| Depends on which ocean you find yourself stranded. In the
| Mediterranean, don't even think about it. The Baltic sea,
| on the other hand, seems to be quite aenema-friendly.
|
| [Annual mean sea surface salinity for the World Ocean] http
| s://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salinity#/media/File:WOA09_sea...
| doggodaddo78 wrote:
| 7000 ppm for the N Baltic vs 35000 ppm for average sea
| water.
|
| The limit for safe drinking water is 1000 ppm.
|
| The salinity of blood is about 9000 ppm.
|
| Drinking it from either end isn't advisable because the
| osmotic gradient wouldn't transport water it in very
| fast. It would be safe-ish but not hydrating.
| [deleted]
| doggodaddo78 wrote:
| Absolutely not. Osmotic gradient. This is another reason not
| to watch TV and spend more time reading trustworthy sources.
| [deleted]
| refactor_master wrote:
| The thing that surprised me most with this was the _injectable
| perfluorocarbon emulsion_. And it's apparently even _standard
| practice_. Oxidation damage is actually the bigger risk.
|
| And here I was, fearing pizza trays and non-stick pans.
| bob_theslob646 wrote:
| Can you explain to me why you fear injectable perfluorocarbon
| emulsion?
| [deleted]
| helsinkiandrew wrote:
| Archive.org link:
|
| https://web.archive.org/web/20210514233706/https://www.econo...
|
| This article reminded me of the bizarre source of the expression
| to "Blow smoke up your arse":
|
| http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2014/05/origin-expre...
| _Microft wrote:
| For Firefox users:
|
| Click reader mode and if the article is truncated there, press
| reload/F5 to reload while being in reader mode.
|
| If Firefox does not offer the reader mode symbol for a website,
| you can force loading the website in reader mode by prepending
| _about:reader?url=_ to the URL.
| imwillofficial wrote:
| Or just run a sane browser like Brave ::ducks::
| kalleboo wrote:
| Safari Reader Mode works too, for those on Mac/iOS
| [deleted]
| yboris wrote:
| archive.is link (full article):
|
| https://archive.is/P7FvQ
| BrandoElFollito wrote:
| My wife had toxicology courses and one of the things the lecturer
| said it's that the rectum is interesting because of its
| absorbtion capacitors that are not hampered by the body.
|
| Alcohol is one example, where you can die of intoxication, while
| if you have taken it the more traditional way your body would
| have reacted earlier to get it out.
| AdrianB1 wrote:
| https://darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin2007-13.html
| hsbauauvhabzb wrote:
| I was under the impression 'shelving' was also a faster way to
| absorb alcohol and illicit drugs, hence why it's popular among
| certain groups.
| [deleted]
| fnord77 wrote:
| certain groups, such as supreme court justices
| swebs wrote:
| Why do people in this thread keep saying this?
| robk wrote:
| A debunked silly Vox story
| DonHopkins wrote:
| Silly, yes, but what do you mean by "debunked"? Do you
| dispute its definition? Are you an expert in the field of
| flatulence? Where's your scholarly citation that boofing
| is actually farting, and not stuffing cocaine, ecstasy,
| methamphetamine, heroin, or alcohol up your ass?
|
| The only thing that was debunked was Brett Kavanaugh's
| lie under oath to congress that boofing is farting.
|
| https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Boofing
|
| >Boofing: The act of smirkingly perjuring oneself before
| the United States Senate Judiciary Committee.
|
| >Boofing: The act of inserting drugs into your anus for a
| much stronger trip, even though it's named like a synonym
| for farting. Brett, we googled what boofing means, the
| definition conflicts with your testimony.
|
| >Boofing: Common slang term used for anal sex in the
| 1980's. More recently used to describe the act of
| inserting drugs ( most often tab form or powdered
| ecstasy) through the anus to more quickly enter the blood
| stream, also referred to as "thumbing" or "booty popping"
| Sexual : Last night, my friends and I were boofing Molly!
|
| >Boofing: the act of consuming alcohol via the anus, for
| rapid buzz e.g. Lance boofed a bottle of Old Thompson
|
| https://www.healthline.com/health/substance-use/booty-
| bump#:....
|
| >What's the Deal with Booty Bumping (aka Boofing)?
|
| >Booty bumping, sometimes called boofing, is a way to
| consume drugs -- usually methamphetamine, heroin, or
| cocaine -- by way of your butt.
|
| https://discoveryplace.info/effects-of-boofing/
|
| >Understanding the Dangerous Trend of Boofing
|
| >What is Boofing? Boofing is slang for inserting drugs or
| alcohol into the anus. People boof to get a faster and
| more intense high. Because there are a high number of
| blood vessels located near a thinner surface layer of
| mucosal tissue in the anus, drug and alcohol absorption
| happens at a faster rate than ingesting something orally.
| Just about anything can be boofed: alcohol, MDMA,
| cocaine, heroin, crushed up pills, you name it.
|
| https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2018/09/29/what-
| exactl...
|
| >What Exactly Is 'Boofing' And When You Should Never Do
| It
|
| >When someone asks you a question, it helps to know
| specifically what is being asked. For example, if someone
| asks you, "have you boofed yet," don't answer unless you
| know exactly what that person means by boofing.
|
| >Apparently Supreme Court-nominee Brett Kavanaugh asked
| that exact question in his high school yearbook page.
| During the confirmation hearings this week when Senator
| Sheldon Whitehouse (D-Rhode Island) asked Kavanaugh to
| clarify what "boofing" means, Kavanaugh responded that he
| used the term to refer to flatulence as shown in this PBS
| NewsHour broadcast:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ccXpDhMmBY&t=1s&ab_chann
| el=...
|
| >However, the word "boof" does not appear in the lists of
| synonyms for fart provided by Thesaurus.com or by Ben
| Applebaum and Dan DiSorbo in a HuffPost article entitled
| "150 Different Words For Fart."
|
| https://www.huffpost.com/entry/different-words-for-
| fart_b_34...
| Cyberdog wrote:
| Did you seriously just use Urban Dictionary to bolster a
| political argument?
| [deleted]
| DonHopkins wrote:
| Since you asked:
|
| Brett Kavanaugh implausibly claimed under oath that
| "boofing" was a reference to farting, but he perjured
| himself and lied to Congress on live television. So now
| we have a Supreme Court justice who ingested drugs
| through his butt hole, and lied about it by falsely
| claiming under oath that he was only farting.
|
| Brett Kavanaugh's yearbook: the "boof" joke, explained
|
| https://www.vox.com/culture/2018/9/27/17905818/brett-
| kavanau...
|
| Brett Kavanaugh's questionable definitions of "boof" and
| "Devil's Triangle," explained
|
| https://www.vox.com/2018/9/27/17911728/brett-kavanaugh-
| boof-...
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRJecfRxbr8&ab_channel=Sa
| tur...
|
| >The boofing exchange between Kavanaugh and Judge, along
| with other terms like "Devil's Triangle" in Kavanaugh's
| yearbook entry, bears significance because it presents a
| specific picture of the men as having spent a lot of
| their time drinking, partying, and pursuing sexual
| exploits in high school -- a reputation that followed
| Kavanaugh to Yale.
|
| >This is the reputation that comes into play in the
| account of Christine Blasey Ford, who also testified
| before the Senate Judiciary Committee on Thursday about
| her allegations that Kavanaugh pinned her to a bed,
| groped her, rubbed his genitals against her, tried to
| remove her clothes, and covered her mouth while she tried
| to scream for help during the summer of 1982. Ford also
| alleges that Judge witnessed the incident.
|
| https://twitter.com/davidenrich/status/104541695552253542
| 5
|
| >David Enrich @davidenrich Sep 27, 2018
|
| >Based on extensive interviews by me and @katekelly with
| Kavanaugh's former Georgetown Prep classmates, what he
| just said about the meanings of "boofed" and "Devil's
| Triangle" is not true.
| Google234 wrote:
| I don't think this is as clear fit as you are implying:
| https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/brett-kavanaugh-
| meanin...
| DonHopkins wrote:
| In the context of the words written in his yearbook,
| "Judge, have you boofed yet?", how could it possibly make
| sense to ask a 16-year-old boy if he has ever farted yet?
| Why even ask that question? What do you guess the answer
| is?
|
| Interpreting "boof" as fart in that context makes
| absolutely no sense. But interpreting "boof" as ingesting
| drugs or alcohol though the anus is perfectly consistent
| with his well documented behavior.
| Sleepytime wrote:
| My significant other's family has always referred to
| farting as a boofer, boof, and boofing, fwiw. Maybe it's
| regional?
| abrookewood wrote:
| Jokes aside, when would this be useful? I can't think of many
| situations where a patient wouldn't be able to breathe but was
| still alive. Some burn victims I guess?
| jxf wrote:
| Severe lung obstruction, cases where intubation and tracheotomy
| are contraindicated, et cetera. It's not super common in the
| grand scheme of things, but then, neither are tracheotomies.
| nigerian1981 wrote:
| A previous HN article links to a paper which mentions this
| would be useful when there is a shortage of ventilators:
| https://www.cell.com/med/fulltext/S2666-6340(21)00153-7
| kragen wrote:
| Maybe some kind of worldwide pandemic of a respiratory
| infection with a significant fatality rate?
| TheAdamAndChe wrote:
| Especially if ventilator capacity becomes saturated, this
| could possibly one day be a scalable alternative.
| creshal wrote:
| *Fuck* ventilators. They damage the patient's lungs, and
| laying tubes into the trachea requires traumatic surgery
| and carries significant secondary infection risk.
|
| ECMO - for patients with too destroyed lungs - is even
| worse, massive infection risk due to exposing vital
| arteries and veins, and it destroys your blood cells,
| requiring constant topping up with fresh blood
| transfusions.
|
| This has the potential to be less invasive than _either_
| measure and could give the patients a chance to let their
| lungs actually heal from all the damage.
| mikecsh wrote:
| What a bizarre comment. Every patient who goes under
| general anaesthesia for surgery (life saving or
| otherwise) is ventilated and usually without issue.
|
| "Laying tubes into the trachea" I presume refers to
| tracheostomy.
|
| Let's be realistic here - if you are requiring a
| tracheostomy and ventilator, or ECMO the you are
| _severely_ unwell. A blood transfusion, or small risk of
| infection is the least of your worries at that point.
|
| As with everything in medicine there is a risk:benefit
| ratio. If you need ECMO you literally cannot oxygenate
| your own blood even with a ventilator. No ECMO = you die.
| creshal wrote:
| > Let's be realistic here - if you are requiring a
| tracheostomy and ventilator, or ECMO the you are severely
| unwell.
|
| Obviously. So why use these invasive procedures if a less
| invasive one could do the job with less risk?
|
| > A blood transfusion, or small risk of infection is the
| least of your worries at that point.
|
| Did you come straight from the 19th century or something?
| Hospital acquired infections kill _hundreds of thousands_
| of people every year. That 's hardly a small worry.
|
| > As with everything in medicine there is a risk:benefit
| ratio.
|
| No shit. That's why there's interest in alternative
| procedures with less risk for the same benefit.
|
| > If you need ECMO you literally cannot oxygenate your
| own blood even with a ventilator.
|
| Unless... there's a new method that bypasses the lungs.
| Did you read the linked article?
| mikecsh wrote:
| Angry much? Calm yourself down.
|
| Clearly if anal oxygen proves to be safer and as
| effective then it will be adopted. No one is disputing
| that.
|
| My comment was regarding your expletive laden derision of
| devices which save hundreds of thousands of lives.
|
| And you seem to have missed the point. I did. It say
| hospital acquired infections are not prevalent or
| problematic. My point was that every decision in medicine
| s based on risk and benefit. If you need ECMO you will
| almost certainly die without it. If you have ECMO there
| is a _compratively small_ risk of infection that _may_
| kill you.
|
| And yes thanks, I did read the article. I'm also a doctor
| and have spent many months working in ITU, anaesthesia,
| and operating theatres, and managing acutely unwell
| COVID-19 patients.
|
| Let us all be glad you're not making any treatment
| decisions.
| creshal wrote:
| > Clearly if anal oxygen proves to be safer and as
| effective then it will be adopted. No one is disputing
| that.
|
| Could've fooled me with how dismissive you were.
|
| > My point was that every decision in medicine s based on
| risk and benefit.
|
| Then there should be no problem with highlighting the
| risks so people realise that alternatives are worth it
| not just as somehow inferior "second standard" as implied
| by the person I was replying to, but as equal or better
| solution.
| mikecsh wrote:
| To clarify for you (again), my comment was regarding your
| unfounded derision of existing, proven, lifesaving
| technologies--I was not dismissing of the technique
| proposed in the article.
|
| I don't think _"F### ventilators. They damage the
| patient's lungs, and laying tubes into the trachea
| requires traumatic surgery and carries significant
| secondary infection risk"_ is really offering an informed
| or balanced discussion of the risks and benefits of
| intubation and ventilation hence my initial reply.
|
| On the contrary, this offers an emotive, highly negative,
| and uninformed opinion with no balance. We are in a time
| of a global pandemic with the general public now aware of
| intubation, ventilation, ECMO, CPAP, BiPAP, and other
| respiratory interventions. Many people and/or their
| families are having to face or consider these
| interventions. Your comment is potentially harmful.
|
| Against to be clear, the medical profession is (spoiler
| alert) acutely aware of the risks and negatives of
| ventilation, including extended ventilation, ECMO,
| surgical and percutaneous traches, and every other
| intervention that is offered. These risks are discussed
| with patients and families who often lack the domain
| expertise, it therefore being part of the role of the
| doctor to explain to the best of their knowledge what
| options the patient has before them and likely outcomes
| of the different options. Ultimately (ideally) the
| patient makes a decision for themselves based on this
| information.
|
| You can be sure that the nuanced and balanced discussion
| is a little more informative than "F### ventilators".
| creshal wrote:
| If someone gets their health advice off Hackernews
| comments I'd say they need a psychiatrist first.
|
| Yes, they're the least bad treatment options we have
| _right now_ , I can still be hyped about potential
| improvements.
|
| > You can be sure that the nuanced and balanced
| discussion is a little more informative than "F###
| ventilators".
|
| I'd rather hope so. I've had to ask "so what health risks
| were you supposed to inform me about according to the
| form you want me to sign?" way too many times.
| kragen wrote:
| I think there are a significant number of general
| anesthesia patients who don't get intubated, but the big
| issue is that being intubated for four hours is very
| different from being intubated for two weeks, which is
| very likely to kill you. (And, yes, not breathing will
| also kill you. But intubation was working so badly that
| hospitals developed proning protocols for covid patients
| as a less fatal alternative which was less likely to kill
| them.)
|
| If squirting oxygenated perfluorodecane up your ass for
| two weeks can keep you alive more often than proning or
| intubation, that'd be a great improvement. Could save a
| lot of lives. Buy Dow Chemical stonks.
| aladoc99 wrote:
| In general it's true that being on a ventilator for two
| weeks carries a high mortality, but that's largely due to
| being sick enough to require ventilation for that
| duration. Presumably without effective oxygenation or
| airway protection, these people would have died before
| the two week mark. COVID pneumonia presents a special
| case. Early on the thinking was that noninvasive
| ventilation with bipap etc would promote spread of the
| virus, so the recommendation was to proceed earlier to
| intubation. In retrospect this did appear to lead to
| higher mortality, likely related to ventilator associated
| pneumonia and sedation and paralytic drugs. So we've
| returned to a more ordinary stance where intubation is a
| last resort. So, intubation is bad, but for most
| circumstances, it beats a trip to the morgue.
| freshair wrote:
| General anesthesia is fraught with peril. Every time
| somebody is put under they're dicing with death.
| mikecsh wrote:
| Getting in a car is fraught with peril. Every time
| somebody gets in a vehicle they're dicing with death.
|
| I think it's important to contextualise the risk. The
| risk of dying from an anaesthetic is about 1 in 100,000.
| Compare with risk of dying in a car accident in a given
| year for example.
|
| And again, it comes down to risk:benefit. Anaesthetics
| are not given out willy-nilly. The reason for the
| anaesthetic is considered along with the patient's co-
| morbidities and personal physiological parameter where
| relevant. Based on this a reasonable estimate of the
| personalised risks for that patient for that operation
| can be given for the patient to choose if they wish to
| proceed or not.
| imwillofficial wrote:
| Define "significant"
| quickthrower2 wrote:
| So bad that most countries voluntarily fucked up their
| economy by closing international transport or even
| interstate or between cities, closed all bars, restaurants
| and even stop people visiting their families, to prevent it
| spreading
| Der_Einzige wrote:
| P value less than 0.05
| Engineering-MD wrote:
| That is statistical significance. There is also clinical
| significance, ie is it actually worth doing.
| Symmetry wrote:
| They mention it being less traumatic than intubation so severe
| Covid-19 that can't be handled with just an oxygen mask would
| be one reason to administer this.
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