[HN Gopher] My life as a woman in tech, told in three beverages
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My life as a woman in tech, told in three beverages
Author : Balgair
Score : 40 points
Date : 2021-05-02 18:17 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (medium.datadriveninvestor.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (medium.datadriveninvestor.com)
| bsaul wrote:
| if i want to play devil's advocate here, i'd say you can't both
|
| - remark that throughout your carrer you've been pretty much the
| only female in your team,
|
| - note that you've been naturally assigned the role of greeting
| newcomers,
|
| then
|
| - be upset that a new candidate won't assume you're an assistant
| instead of a developer he'll work with.
|
| He's just noticed pretty much the same things as you, and
| concluded the most likely job for that person that greeted him
| was an assistant.
| hodgesrm wrote:
| That's not quite what the author was getting at. She was making
| an important point that I support wholeheartedly.
|
| Any candidate who is a jerk to the person who shows them to the
| meeting room and provides coffee pretty much guarantees they
| will not be joining my company. It's a good sieve for people
| who won't work out on a team because they lack basic
| consideration for others.
| etrabroline wrote:
| >That's not quite what the author was getting at
|
| Of course not, bsaul was making his own point with the facts
| presented by the author. The characterization of the
| candidate's choice of words as "being a jerk" is not a fact.
| Clearly he was making a joke.
| floatingatoll wrote:
| Men, if you want to know how to help prevent this kind of
| nonsense, pro tip:
|
| > _he went on to say that Dick is a bully, and he's personally
| wanted to punch Dick for years_
|
| This executive leader tolerated Dick for years, and then instead
| of getting Dick fired for gross and inappropriate touching, he
| _celebrated_ a harassed woman on having to physically defend her
| person inside the workplace.
|
| So, men, your mission, should you choose to accept it: Stop
| tolerating bad men in your professional and personal lives. Call
| them out. Report them to HR. Tell them their behavior makes you
| uncomfortable. Stop hanging out with them. Accept the penalty to
| networking and move on to better people.
|
| Otherwise you're just the enabler that makes it possible for bad
| men to hurt others without consequences.
|
| (Obviously, don't tolerate bad women either, but from a
| statistical standpoint, focusing on the men-enabling-men problem
| will have the widest societal impact for women.)
| thiagocsf wrote:
| My horror in reading this is that I, a male engineer, have
| probably been the Dick at some point in my career.
| domano wrote:
| Wouldnt you know?
| slickdork wrote:
| Thoughts from tale 1:
|
| - I would have guessed that the person who greeted me, showed me
| where to sit, and asked if I needed anything before leaving was a
| receptionist regardless of gender. That seems like an unfair
| strike/test.
|
| - I'm always surprised by how stupid people are. Being nice to
| the receptionist isn't just good standard human behavior, but
| it's also obvious that a receptionist will have input on the
| hiring process.
|
| Unspecific thoughts:
|
| - I'm always bummed when writing about sexism is laden with
| sexism ("Tech bros" being thrown around like an insult a lot here
| -- maybe don't use a gender pronoun in your insults?).
|
| - I'm always bummed that sexism exists at all, because I'm so
| naively un-maliciousness that I forget some people are the exact
| opposite. When I read stories like this, I have a hard time
| believing them because they're so out side the realm of how I
| would act/behave, but I definitely believe it all.
| altano wrote:
| > I would have guessed that the person who greeted me, showed
| me where to sit, and asked if I needed anything before leaving
| was a receptionist regardless of gender. That seems like an
| unfair strike/test.
|
| I had the exact same thought and then immediately realized it
| was bullshit. If it was a man I think I would question their
| role and I think that's true of most people. It's hard to say
| after the fact.
|
| Some people don't have these biases but most people who _think_
| they don't are just full of shit.
| alisonkisk wrote:
| > it's also obvious that a receptionist will have input on the
| hiring process.
|
| That's a stretch.
| [deleted]
| sunshineforever wrote:
| Its quite a world we live in isn't it? The things that people
| accuse me of sometimes baffle me. And then I have to remember,
| oh yeah that's the kind of world that they live in, filled with
| malicious intent , backstabbing, jealousy etc.
| etripe wrote:
| I'm disappointed the best she could do summing up her 20-year
| experience as a woman in tech is high baseline agression,
| cynicism, two examples of violence on her part, one genuinely
| off-colour remark and one piece of unacceptable behaviour by a
| colleague.
|
| I would have preferred to see some analysis of how she has had
| to and did adjust to the way men think, some tips for
| colleagues welcoming women, something she appreciated in
| working with men, some area she uniquely shone because she was
| a woman in a male environment, etc.
|
| What we got was a thinly veiled foregone conclusion of
| "anything I don't like is discrimination because I'm a woman"
| and "the problem is men". As usual, she is merely the victim,
| has no agency and no interest in a non-gynocentric perspective.
| As it stands, there is little to be gained from her post
| besides discouraging women from joining up and demonising men.
| _Microft wrote:
| Just for your information: indenting a comment like this
| renders the indented text as block of code. It might look
| formatted or more readable on desktop but on mobile it looks
| broken and requires horizontal scrolling. Maybe there is a
| different way of structuring the comment that you might like as
| well?
| slickdork wrote:
| Thanks! Updated.
| conradludgate wrote:
| I'm always disappointed when I read stories like this. It saddens
| me that people are like this.
|
| My team of 15 has a whopping 2 female engineers and they're
| amazing. Thankfully I've never witnessed a single instance of
| sexism here. There's a fair amount of ignorance and some awkward
| terminology though. (they often use "Hey guys" or "Hey lads").
|
| I do remember in college we did have a female student. Of course
| the reaction was "Wow! A girl in the class!". She didn't last
| long before transferring courses...
|
| I hope our future female engineers persist and we can get a
| better split between men and women. I hate being in this men's
| world
|
| Please! Respect your fellow engineers, no matter what they look
| like or where they come from.
| sudosteph wrote:
| I was often the only girl in my comp sci classes, though not
| always. I always thought it was interesting to see how my
| fellow female peers handled the extra attention. Some of them
| leaned into it and were always surrounded by mediocre male
| peers eager to "help" them. They would pretty much always defer
| to their posse of helpers and get praise for being a team
| player.
|
| My strategy was pretty much the polar opposite though. I found
| that if I could one-up my male peers early in the course, most
| of the annoying ones would be too intimidated to bother me. It
| worked out pretty well too. The ones who weren't intimidated
| tended to be better at the coursework anyhow. So when I needed
| to partner up, I would pick one of them - and I wouldn't have
| to worry about them not respecting me or anything. If it was a
| random pairing with one of the ones who was uncomfortable
| around me, that actually worked fine too. They usually let me
| take the leadership role, and I didn't mind that either. I
| didn't get points for being agreeable, but nobody doubted my
| competency - and that was all I really wanted.
|
| I can definitely see how women who aren't comfortable doing
| either of the things described above would transfer away.
| alisonkisk wrote:
| This article reads like a first draft of Disney's Purl, with a
| bit of /r/thathappened embellishment (coke pouring back into the
| can?). Someone who calls their (her word) kind coworker "babe"
| and "tech bro" also raises an eyebrow.
| thedevelopnik wrote:
| How did Dick not get fired long before if everyone thought he was
| terrible?
|
| Oh right, that company did not learn the lesson of the first one,
| coding is not as important as being a decent person when it comes
| to building a team.
| etrabroline wrote:
| I will never understand this logic. It doesn't matter how
| friendly someone is if they can't code, but even if someone is
| difficult to work with (as many smart computer programmers are)
| they can still be hugely important to a team's success.
| Obviously there are limits to both of these, but technical
| ability is the requirement and "being fun to work with" is the
| nice-to-have. I think highly socialized people tend to complain
| about non-social people much more than the reverse.
| domano wrote:
| Sure, not having any hard skills at all disqualifies, but at
| some point you are good enough to do work and the social
| ability becomes the bottleneck.
|
| It is not about being fun to work with (this is a nice bonus,
| sure), but having the ability to communicate with and enable,
| mentor, help others or accept help and critique if necessary.
| [deleted]
| ja27 wrote:
| When we had someone in for an interview, I'd often circle back
| and ask the office admin (that also covered reception) what she
| thought of them. It was pretty informative and eliminated a few
| candidates.
|
| I've seen someone give the advice of responding to crude sexist
| "jokes" by asking them to explain it then explain the
| explanation. Just keep insisting that you don't get it and don't
| understand why it's funny and see how deep you can get them to
| dig before they get it.
| Graffur wrote:
| I'll admit I didn't finish the article. I got as far as the
| author critising her colleagues clothes. If this was the other
| way round she would be pissed but because she is making fun of
| men itself okay to her.
|
| She also seems to think a receptionist or assistant is beneath
| her for some reason.
|
| I'm tired of pandering to the idea of all men bad all women good.
| [deleted]
| rasputnik6502 wrote:
| Nice story. It takes some experience and self knowledge to
| identify what is a joke and what is bullying. Most men just want
| to be liked, seem witty and funny, and sometimes are just going a
| too far to show off. But there's a group of people who will
| belittle you to humiliate and assert their higher position in the
| hierarchy and this is a part of an ugly campaign to destroy any
| competition (which also means you're perceived as dangerous). And
| misunderstandings happen, with victims on both sides, but it's
| valuable to know some people have hidden motives.
|
| I have a different issue, I think it has something to do with
| male/female relations at workplace. I'm the lead dev in a mixed
| team. And one of devs, who happens to be a girl, has some special
| attitude. Whenever I report a problem with the code, or a bug,
| she jumps in and exclaims it's not her code or she didn't do
| anything related to the problem, basically not her fault [without
| any suggestions that it might be her fault]. Sometimes tries to
| blame someone else. If anything points to her responsibility, she
| downplays it (oh you know I don't even remember). All while I try
| to avoid blaming or pointing code ownership. But the most
| difficult part was when I pointed out some parts were missing in
| her work and function wasn't completed - then I was accused of
| being mean and attacking her without any reason. Never had such
| situation, I am rather a considerate, polite person, try to
| remain professional and never touch personal side - but this just
| perplexed me. With a male dev it would not be possible, but when
| a woman accuses a man of harassment or bullying at work the man
| is considered guilty by default. I perceived this as a threat -
| never ever criticize my work or you will be accused.
| Unfortunately she's not doing that great job sometimes and so
| cooperation gets quite difficult - and I'm afraid it's not going
| to be good in future.
| alisonkisk wrote:
| Calling a woman a girl, while calling a man a man, might be why
| you find it hard to form positive rapport with her.
| rasputnik6502 wrote:
| i dont think this is relevant, she's not the only female
| developer in the team and i have rather a positive rapport
| with everyne else. It's just how the normal work situation
| becomes twisted into personal, full of self-defense and
| finger pointing, with potential to develop into crazy if i
| dont back off.
|
| PS after giving this one more thought, i dont think i ever
| patronized someone because of gender, but must honestly admit
| i assume the mentor tone when dealing with unexperienced/less
| skilled developers. Shoot me, but it's not about maintaining
| my feeling of superiority, i know my skills. It's about
| building a rapport - if the other person reacts properly then
| there's hope for cooperation, if it's just games then sorry,
| i dont want that.
| hodgesrm wrote:
| It's important to keep things fact based and be very specific
| about the behavior you want corrected. I would get things in
| writing as well so that you have email to back you up in case
| things go south.
|
| The situation you are describing is, unfortunately, not a
| male/female issue. It is a pattern for a certain type of low
| performer.
|
| p.s., You might think about why you use the word "girl" as
| opposed to "woman" BTW. That's a touchy point for a lot of
| women, as it diminishes their seniority. It may or may not be
| relevant to the conversations you describe. This is not
| intended as criticism; I know nothing of the situation beyond
| what you wrote.
| rasputnik6502 wrote:
| Probably because of age difference, she's much younger than
| me. And also because of the way she behaves - i perceive it
| as a bit childish/immature
|
| But yes, i'm afraid i might be wrongly accused and would have
| a hard time defending myself, and this also affects the rest
| of the team (as i dont think they're blind - they see and
| feel what's going on - but on the other side i'd rather not
| talk about this with anyone else from the team so it's ok we
| dont mention that)
|
| PS (edit): "low performer" - this is probably the key, i have
| worked with some developers doing a poor job but it's first
| time when i'm served some manipulative crap to prevent any
| honest discussion of the work done.
| jcims wrote:
| It's human nature to use whatever leverage you have, this kind
| of thing is going to happen. In my experience one of the best
| balancing forces for this overshoot is to ensure that you're
| putting as much effort into developing diverse leads as you are
| hiring diverse ICs.
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