[HN Gopher] Apple's Independent Repair Provider program expands ...
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Apple's Independent Repair Provider program expands globally
Author : todsacerdoti
Score : 50 points
Date : 2021-03-29 20:01 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.apple.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.apple.com)
| genmud wrote:
| I wish apple would stop using/forcing IC manufacturers to
| restrict supply of components on their board.
|
| The IRP provides parts, but when it comes to apple, the only
| parts available are the entire assemblies, which is a bummer.
| Instead of replacing a $4 IC that got blown because of liquid
| damage, you have to replace the entire PCB, which for a MBP might
| be like $800-1200.
|
| I feel like there is so much ewaste that wouldn't head to the
| landfill if this wasn't the case.
| reaperducer wrote:
| _the only parts available are the entire assemblies, which is a
| bummer. Instead of replacing a $4 IC that got blown_
|
| If it can't be bought, how do you know it costs $4?
|
| More to the point -- I don't think Apple is focused on repair
| shops as competition. I think they're focused on the likes of
| Samsung and Huawei as competition, and lock up the parts to
| keep them out of the hands of their real competitors. The indy
| repair facilities are just collateral damage.
| kevincox wrote:
| I doubt that is true. There is lots of evidence that shows
| Apple is quite actively trying to cycle phones through
| consumers faster.
|
| Preventing other manufacturers from buying them may be
| another benefit, but fighting repairs is more than a happy
| accident.
| reader_mode wrote:
| > think they're focused on the likes of Samsung and Huawei as
| competition, and lock up the parts to keep them out of the
| hands of their real competitors
|
| How does that even make sense - the parts are shipping with
| the devices. And reverse engineering stuff from the device to
| the point of being able to repair (ie. reverse engineering to
| the point of a repair manual) should be fairly trivial for
| invested parties.
| genmud wrote:
| Because parts of similar make/capabilities by the exact same
| manufacturer are sold at that price. What Apple is doing is
| working with the supplier to roll a specific IC that is for
| use exclusively by them. The issue is that many of these
| components don't have any secret sauce (or if they do, its
| minimal) and are black boxes which can't be bought.
|
| I'm even giving them a huge price hike, since on many of the
| things, for example a common DC-DC converter with multiple
| rails in a WLCSP or BGA package is more like $.20-$.35 at the
| volumes they buy.
|
| They are definitely not doing this as a competitive thing
| against Samsung/Huawei, since Samsung/Huawei aren't
| competitors on laptops. This is specifically around their
| laptops/desktops.
|
| These practices are definitely targeted at removing the
| capabilities to do component level repair. If they were not,
| you could allow your suppliers to sell those ICs to component
| level repair shops.
|
| The problem is that Apple has a pattern and well established
| history of this type of anti-repair behavior. They have also
| been actively engaged in lobbying against these types of
| rights. They definitely don't get to have the benefit of the
| doubt on this topic.
| rasz wrote:
| Dont forget RPi foundation did exactly the same thing with
| rpi3 voltage regulator, and refused to sell replacements
| despite their shit design blowing them easily.
| birdyrooster wrote:
| For most manufacturers I agree, but Apple has the capability to
| disassemble and refurbish their devices in an automated fashion
| and incentivizes users to trade in their old equipment with
| discounts on new products. There is a lot less that gets sent
| to landfill as a result.
| genmud wrote:
| I would love to hear sources on that, I doubt that apple
| refurbs their 2-3 year old laptops and sells them to
| customers. Maybe they are doing this for iPhone lines, but I
| doubt they are doing it for their MBP/iPad stuff.
|
| TBH, refurb stuff in my mind is basically remanufactured.
| When most devices go through that process at a manufacturer,
| many times they will get the guts pulled out and have
| replacement cosmetics redone.
|
| I have _never_ seen anything but the current gen stuff or N-1
| laptops for sale on their refurb store, so call that into
| question.
| lostgame wrote:
| That's the dream, isn't it? :P
|
| Repairable, or, especially, _upgradeable_ Macs are absolutely a
| fever dream of mine.
| google234123 wrote:
| How many hours of specialist work would it be to find and
| replace a single tiny faulty IC on a large PCB? I can't
| imagine it's actually cost effective.
| devwastaken wrote:
| Lookup louis rossman. It's very effective - especially when
| macbooks have common failures.
| simion314 wrote:
| Many times the same parts fail over and over, you do not
| start checking from A to Z. Honestly I am expecting somone
| to comment that he made a neural network that will detect
| the exact problem just from the error codes and a board
| picture, maybe an infrared one too.
| stefan_ wrote:
| You are forgetting that many faults are from more or less
| design issues on the particular product revisions so there
| is a lot to be said for identifying the fault pattern once,
| then just applying it over and over again. Then, the cost
| you are competing with is the replacement cost for
| typically the entire logic board, which can easily be $800
| - that buys a lot of hours.
|
| That said there is a kernel of truth here which is that
| component level repair requires diagnostic acumen,
| creativity and some mechanical skill. That requires some
| actual expertise, training, .. in your repair business
| instead of hiring monkeys that replace full boards no
| matter what.
| MrTastie wrote:
| Not many. When you work with the same boards over and over,
| you tend to know the places to check when certain issues
| come up. Fewer dollars in man-hours than the cost of a
| board replacement.
| PurpleFoxy wrote:
| It's not so bad if you can get enough customers and it's
| all the same laptop. Lewis Rossman has a very good
| knowledge of the MacBook internals and he can very quickly
| identify which chip is dead because it's often the same
| chips that fail and they give the same symptoms so with a
| few voltage checks with a multi meter you can work out what
| chip needs replacing.
|
| The problem is the suppliers for apple have tightened
| protocols and they won't talk to him anymore so what used
| to be $1 in new parts and $40 in effort is now telling the
| customer to throw their MacBook in the bin.
|
| The economics also changes in other countries where the
| cost of a laptop far exceeds the wages of the people living
| there so having someone mess around with it for a few days
| is still more cost effective than getting a new one.
| genmud wrote:
| Depends on the fault. If the schematics are readily
| available and replacement parts are there, it would take
| maybe 20-40 minutes of troubleshooting? Sure its
| complicated, but if you charge $150-200/hour, it can
| certainly be cost effective when the alternative is $1200
| for a new PCB or $2500 for a new laptop.
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| > $1200 for a new PCB
|
| That's probably not what it costs Apple. Especially with
| the M1, they pay per square inch of wafer, not chip...
| genmud wrote:
| Definitely not, but the way they probably calculate this
| is: Total Bill of Materials = display +
| motherboard + laptop case + keyboard + trackpad + charger
| + cable
|
| Then they figure out what percentage each subassembly
| costs in the BOM and then divide by the retail price of
| the product, maybe rounding up a hundred or two.
|
| So if for example the motherboard is 40% of the total BOM
| of a $2500 laptop, you have a $1,000 motherboard right
| there.
| rasz wrote:
| 0.1 to 2 hours at ~$350 flat fee.
| paxys wrote:
| While that would be great, it's a pointless wish considering
| Apple has been steadily moving in the exact opposite direction
| for years. And now other manufacturers are doing the same
| following their lead. Forget ICs, now you can't even upgrade
| storage or RAM in your own computer.
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| > can't even upgrade storage or RAM in your own computer.
|
| I wonder if they have any data on how often folks used to do
| that.
| cptskippy wrote:
| I imagine one day iFixit is going to pop open a MacBook and
| it's just going to be a black epoxy blob.
| paxys wrote:
| Excuse me.. it'll be a gorgeous _white_ epoxy blob.
| xnyan wrote:
| >Forget ICs, now you can't even upgrade storage or RAM in
| your own computer
|
| Why forget? We're talking about Apple, and it's a choice
| Apple could make at any time. It took me a few years, but I
| am now pretty damn good with my hot air reflow station and
| can reliably work with pretty much any SMD.
|
| If someone (who of of course has given informed consent that
| I am not Apple and they have no responsibility for this
| repair) wants me to try and fix their device, what's the good
| reason for Apple not selling me a component?
|
| Because it makes no sense if your goal is to make as much
| money as possible. You'd rather sell them something new or
| capture as much profit as possible by selling your repairs.
|
| I'm an apple customer only because I consider them the least
| worst option for me at this time. Nobody is king forever, and
| the second there's a viable option for me, I'm out.
| Krasnol wrote:
| > what's the good reason for Apple not selling me a
| component?
|
| Them wanting you to buy a new device?
|
| You've shown that you're ready to spend a lot of money
| already. Chances are good that you'd do it again.
| Krasnol wrote:
| You could at least have the balls to come out and say why
| you downvote me...cowards.
| bilbo0s wrote:
| _what 's the good reason for apple not selling me a
| component?_
|
| I have no personal insight into the content of Apple's
| contracts. That said, having had a bit of experience in
| that sort of thing previously, the "good reason" could be
| Apple's contracts with its suppliers. Maybe Apple gets
| different contracts since they are such a market maker, but
| for a normal startup, be prepared to not be able to sell
| those parts on to third parties. Full stop.
|
| Many people sometimes don't read or fully understand the
| fine print in those contracts. ("Many people" being me and
| my partners as first time hardware guys.)
|
| Not sure why suppliers do that? Maybe so that they can
| capture that markup revenue themselves? Or maybe they don't
| want you moving into that business at all even as a "parts
| seller"? But in dealing with component suppliers at a less
| larger scale, there are many things you have to agree to
| that would have made doing what you ask explicitly a breach
| of our contracts.
|
| You would think Apple has better contracts though? I would
| think they would have far more flexibility. Just throwing
| out what we had to deal with and thinking "what if Apple
| has the same thing going on?"
| codetrotter wrote:
| > who of of course has given informed consent that I am not
| Apple and they have no responsibility for this repair
|
| I think no matter the lengths you go to in explaining it
| there would in fact still be a lot of consumers that don't
| understand what this means. And so Apple might see more
| customers blame them whenever a less skilled IRP changes
| some components without it fixing the problem.
| anonymousiam wrote:
| I think HP was actually the pioneer of this. Years ago I
| attempted to replace a failed (IDE) hard drive in an HP
| desktop. The (HP OEM) Windows installation failed because the
| drive (although comparable and perfectly suitable) was not an
| HP part. I dealt with their tech support for days, and even
| obtained a replacement (HP OEM) Windows disc. The
| troubleshooting folks were off their chart and could not
| help. (I went with a non-HP drive because I could get it more
| quickly, and it cost half as much as the HP part, and had a
| better warranty.)
|
| I tried a non-HP Windows installation disc and everything
| worked just fine. So I was not allowed to install the
| Licensed and paid-for Windows OS because the hard disk was
| not recognized as an HP part.
|
| I wasted so much time troubleshooting that it would have been
| cheaper to just buy the overpriced HP disk. Since that day I
| have never purchased any HP products, and I have recommended
| other brands to my clients.
| [deleted]
| devwastaken wrote:
| Apple independent repair is a PR stunt that is not at all about
| repair. It's apart of their fight to not provide repair while
| looking like they do so various governments won't regulate them.
|
| If we always had to buy OEM dealer parts and only dealer
| 'certified techs' could repair, then only the rich can afford
| vehicles.
|
| https://youtu.be/0rCUF-V1esM skip to 6:13.
| CivBase wrote:
| > If we always had to buy OEM dealer parts and only dealer
| 'certified techs' could repair, then only the rich can afford
| vehicles.
|
| Assuming Apple even sells their "authorized independent repair
| providers" the parts or authorizes them to perform the repairs.
| From the sound of things, they can't do hardly anything more
| than replace screens and batteries. Rossmann has said he's not
| AAIRP-certified specifically because the program wouldn't allow
| him to offer many of the repair services he current provides.
| nickfromseattle wrote:
| The city I grew up in had 3 Apple stores within 10 miles, I took
| having access to in-person Apple support for granted.
|
| Have a problem? Drive down to the Apple store.
|
| Then I moved to a European country without a single Apple store.
|
| Did you know that Apple will only replace iPhones under warranty
| that were purchased in the same country (EU is a single market)?
| [0]
|
| Meaning, if I buy an iPhone in Europe, Apple won't service it
| under warranty in the US and visa versa. I have to mail it to the
| country of purchase.
|
| There are a lot of locations in the world without an Apple store,
| and I help this makes it easier to get support locally.
|
| I recently switched to the M1 from Lenovo's X1 Carbon line and
| one of the things I appreciated about Lenovo was having a global
| 3rd party support network with a massive footprint to service
| warranty issues.
|
| If I have problems with my M1 I need to mail it somewhere.
|
| [0] https://discussions.apple.com/thread/250826854
| 4ad wrote:
| > Meaning, if I buy an iPhone in Europe, Apple won't service it
| under warranty in the US and visa versa. I have to mail it to
| the country of purchase.
|
| Anecdotal, but I had my EU-bought hardware serviced multiple
| time by Apple in the US. In fact, Apple replaced my battery of
| my EU-bought laptop for free, even though my laptop was long
| out of warranty.
|
| Additionally Apple US has fixed my hardware when Apple EU has
| refused to do so claiming it had no problem.
|
| I Have Apple Care, if that matters.
|
| People like to complain about Apple support all the time, but
| in my experience, Apple has been the only company where I've
| had a good warranty experience, though that was in the US. In
| the EU, it's a disaster.
| Nullabillity wrote:
| > I Have Apple Care, if that matters.
|
| That's the hilarious thing about Apple. You overpay on the
| hardware so that you can get gouged on the software, while
| overpaying for a subscription to be able to overpay for
| repairs.
| reaperducer wrote:
| _while overpaying for a subscription to be able to overpay
| for repairs._
|
| You might want to refine your talking points. This has been
| standard practice for electronics companies at least since
| the 1970's. Probably longer. You pay for an extended
| warranty. That's why it's called "extended."
| Nullabillity wrote:
| > You pay for an extended warranty.
|
| I mean sure, many stores try to flog them. But Apple is
| the only _manufacturer_ that tries to make them a thing,
| over here at least.
|
| (Aside from them being ~useless, since manufacturing
| defects are covered by the Reklamationsratt anyway, and
| accidents go under your existing home insurance).
| vimy wrote:
| > Did you know that Apple will only replace iPhones under
| warranty that were purchased in the same country (EU is a
| single market)? [0]
|
| When did this change? I remember global warranty for all Apple
| products with a battery.
| leecb wrote:
| I've personally had an iPhone 8 purchased in Thailand
| replaced under warranty in Sydney. I've had US-purchased
| Macbook Pros serviced in many other countries, including
| batteries (Canada, Thailand), mainboards (Germany,
| Singapore), top cases (butterfly keyboard in Thailand and
| Germany) and screens (Texas, Thailand). Certainly seems
| global to me, though countries without Apple stores are most
| definitely second class participants in Apple's repair
| network.
| speeder wrote:
| I am from Brazil... this is just normal to us.
|
| Our taxes are stupidly insane, and often things at outright not
| available here, so we buy in other countries... need warranty?
| You are screwed.
|
| I bought some RAM for example from US... It had an error in its
| ROM configuration, I told the manufacturer, they attempted to
| fix (and failed, the replacement had same error) and sent to me
| the replacement, government changed me import taxes on the
| product replacement, and seemly just to make a point made the
| taxes higher than the original price I paid in first place.
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| Why not simply get rid of these taxes?
|
| Sounds counter-productive. Are they seriously hopping
| manufacturers are going to go setup manufacturing facilities
| there?
|
| All it does is hurt the local Tech Sector.
| PurpleFoxy wrote:
| It's an improvement but it's not quite good enough IMO. Apple has
| a few weird and insane requirements that extend to independent
| repair stores.
|
| If you want to get your battery replaced. The settings app must
| show that the battery health is at 80% or lower. If it doesn't
| for some reason, the repair store is not allowed by apple to swap
| the battery regardless of what you have experienced or what you
| are willing to pay.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| I guess that's to stop repairers telling you 'probably worth
| changing the battery while we're at it' when that's not true -
| similar to many disreputable car mechanics.
| easton wrote:
| That's especially weird as in the Apple Store, they will not do
| it under warranty but will replace your battery even if it's
| 80%+ for the usual rate. They heavily discourage it though
| (since if your battery isn't that degraded the system won't
| start downclocking).
| tmchu wrote:
| There's nothing weird about it. Apple don't really want
| retail repair shop to be functional. The whole IRP is just a
| political move to avoid right to repair legal battles.
| dralley wrote:
| That doesn't even register in terms of the "insane"
| requirements of this program.
|
| The primary benefit of going to an independent repair store is
| that they're local and can provide faster turnaround than
| mailing it off somewhere. But Apple serializes the batteries,
| so you can't stockpile them. The battery won't work unless it's
| programmed with the phone's serial, and independent repair
| shops can't do that.
|
| So the customer has to go to the independent repair shop, have
| them open up the phone, write down the serial number, order the
| battery from Apple, wait for it to be shipped, and then call
| the customer back in a week so that the phone can be opened and
| actually fixed.
|
| And if the customer at any point says "fuck it" and buys a new
| phone or sends it direct to Apple, then the repair shop is
| stuck with an worthless battery that only works for that
| specific phone.
|
| And on top of that, the batteries are un-competitively priced.
|
| It's a completely worthless program designed to provide them
| some political cover and nothing else.
| reaperducer wrote:
| _Apple serializes the batteries, so you can 't stockpile
| them._
|
| My experience has been the opposite.
|
| When I had my battery replaced at an independent Apple
| authorized service center (one that Apple actually referred
| me to), they replaced the battery the same day with one they
| had in stock.
| pibefision wrote:
| What part is serviceable on an M1 SoC? I returned my M1 MBA
| because I don't want to think on how to replace the SSD after two
| or three years of norm usage.
|
| It's a great machine, but will buy it only after an official
| statement of Apple confirming what's the TBW of their ssd. It's
| 150? 300 or 600. Nobody knows.
| bilbo0s wrote:
| I'm not sure people are wanting an SoC to be "serviceable".
|
| I think most people understand you have to "replace" at that
| point.
| moistbar wrote:
| I don't want to have to spend another grand because a $200
| SSD failed. In other laptops, I don't have to do that.
| bilbo0s wrote:
| I'm not sure you're clear on the difference between a SoC,
| and a System on a Motherboard. In the case of the
| motherboard, you are absolutely correct. However SoC means
| System on a Chip. For any manufacturer, if you put all the
| components into one IC, I'm not seeing how you can
| reasonably "repair" a component that's on that die? It's
| necessary to replace SoCs. But yeah, if you have an SSD on
| a motherboard, you should be able to replace it.
| pibefision wrote:
| What if your SSD fails because the usage? I'am happy to
| replace it with a new one. But in a M1 SoC, you can't. The
| whole motherboard is useless.
| paxys wrote:
| This is a welcome development, but still NOT a substitute for
| right to repair laws and fully independent vendors.
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