Posts by technobaboo@ordinary.cafe
(DIR) Post #As9gnQsWuEAva1aJrk by technobaboo@ordinary.cafe
2025-03-17T19:28:02Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux this is why I call it XDG linux, every distro uses at least basedirs nowadays
(DIR) Post #Aw7tUdclHwqDOUlIfY by technobaboo@ordinary.cafe
2025-07-14T05:32:40Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux supposed to be a radio button but given there's a component called a "throbber" idk anything anymore
(DIR) Post #AwcXUhJLBgItcTS4zw by technobaboo@ordinary.cafe
2025-07-29T07:06:20Z
5 likes, 3 repeats
I want to defend Wayland here and explain a crucial piece that I think people are missing...The splitting of protocols in Wayland and compositor reimplementation were to allow for new form factors. It had to sacrifice the guarantee of all desktop app functionality being present to achieve that.The idea (as I see it) was never to have 500 desktop compositors all trying to reimplement the same thing with slight differences. Iinstead, it was for 500 different interfaces for different platforms that are compatible with the same apps (e.g. desktop, laptop, phone, car screens, AR/VR, watch). Different form factors have totally different ways of dealing with interface, but share enough common features where it makes sense to have 1 base protocol and many other ones for device/form specific features.Problem is, while in 2008-2016 we had a ton of new experimental UIs coming out on a semi-regular basis (that was the peak of the whole convergent phone/tablet craze, smartwatches started, fancy car UI, touch tables, early AR/VR) things have quieted down. The purpose of Wayland's insane modularity hasn't been visible to most people given it's almost always complained about in a desktop contest vs X11. But X11 was literally only designed for a desktop form factor and has been refined for that 1 purpose for decades!As an example of different form factors, Wayland lets IVI (in-vehicle infotainment) systems work way better than Xorg could have. Desktop window layouting on that platform would inherently produce massive amounts of unnecessary complexity, and the ability to direct scanout saves on power/expensive compute. Automotive Grade Linux and COVESA maintain reference interfaces for cars so companies can iterate a ton faster. Wayland gives the app compatibility and they can make the system UI work with more flexibility and ease than an X11 window manager. Take Linux Mobile too, the compositor can reliably enforce window layout and boundaries and composition. While this could technically be done with an X window manager and compositor, doing it with Wayland guarantees reliability as the app simply doesn't have a choice or room for error. Some things like drag and drop of toolbars doesn't make much sense on mobile given how small the screens are.There's some interfaces where X11 is basically impossible to use. In AR/VR (where i am making a Wayland compositor) the concept of a screen simply does not exist. How is an app supposed to position itself when the very concept of 3D is not part of the protocol? In Wayland I don't have to implement the protocols that don''t work (e.g. layer shell) and therefore any apps that don't need it will be compatible..Wayland has allowed for insane levels of flexibility, things that no other display server architecture can do reasonably. Total flexibility between app and screen, direct scanout without hacks, AR/VR support, etc.Here's some fun and useful stuff that's been done with Wayland, stuff that X11 could never reasonably do:LG Smart TV UI: https://youtu.be/4cmYCK9PBkMMultiple user collaboration on touch tables with arbitrary rotation: https://youtu.be/8xtjJTJAQsYAR/VR apps running in windows and volumes at the same time, all interactable back in 2014 (eat your heart out magic leap and apple): https://github.com/evil0sheep/motorcarPresentation slides that were themselves a Wayland compositor written in Qt and QML so therefore allowed fully interactive live demos in an integrated form factor with a very popular and easy to code UI framework: https://youtu.be/mIg1P3i2ZfICosmic panels are actually Wayland compositors, meaning widgets can draw literally anything from any toolkit in any language.Now, could Wayland devs maybe have distributed features across protocols better? Worked with app toolkit devs to ensure the protocols they made actually fit what the apps and compositors needed? Stopped bikeshedding (though imo many cases of "bikeshedding" are simply accounting for other form factors)? Absolutely!My point here is simple: there was a reason for making it this modular, for not having a standard implementation. It wasn't just devs trying to impose some ideology, it wasn't some corporate takeover. It's good reasons that people using X11 on their desktop/laptop don't encounter. If we made something that wasn't universal, most apps wouldn't be compatible with it and therefore everything but the desktop form factor would lack apps.
(DIR) Post #AwcXUim5kGtc9vuYS0 by technobaboo@ordinary.cafe
2025-07-29T08:09:23Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux i feel that most of the comments on the recent wayland video missed this crucial point tbh
(DIR) Post #AwcXwpoVAVU469RahE by technobaboo@ordinary.cafe
2025-07-29T09:00:37Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux i'm also worried that by trying to come up with standard sets of protocols, app devs will hyper-specialize to those sets... making it so you essentially have to implement all of a set to make it work.... and we are back to X11i think we just need to refine the protocols and make sure that we can talk to app devs and toolkit devs and compositor devs about what is needed.
(DIR) Post #AwcYumS0nf4R2mVcBs by technobaboo@ordinary.cafe
2025-07-29T09:06:54Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux true, but i worry that minimum baseline is something that app devs will basically develop only for (even if their app does not require all of it) and therefore I cannot meet it as someone making a compositor for a different form factor... I can't let apps position themselves, they simply do not understand 3D space and its nuances. There's no screen for layer-shell for example!i mean idk, maybe if we phrased it right we could say "if you're a desktop compositor you should implement these protocols" in a way that somehow makes app devs not expect all of them to be present if that makes sense? augh idk
(DIR) Post #AweEvGCsTjl5D0OaKu by technobaboo@ordinary.cafe
2025-07-30T04:30:52Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lanodan that's not as big a deal given everyone used Xorg... but yeah!!
(DIR) Post #AweOOOe94t09Mz7Mhc by technobaboo@ordinary.cafe
2025-07-29T07:13:31Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tofu only GNOME, they refused to implement the DRM lease protocol like everyone else did
(DIR) Post #AwfHepOAuelMQEUnEe by technobaboo@ordinary.cafe
2025-07-30T16:45:36Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wolf480pl @BrodieOnLinux toolkits should be doing the bulk of this work, so listen to toolkit authors/maintainerstalk to toolkits and app devstalk to toolkits and app devsthis doesn't happen nearly enough in wayland! in those discussions they're thinking of hypotheticals from the desktop side often times, not the nuances of how app devs are going to implement it. This is probably the #1 area where Wayland can improve.
(DIR) Post #AwfHvn1swG0s1k9qXw by technobaboo@ordinary.cafe
2025-07-30T16:48:41Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wolf480pllol i wish, now most screen recorders either use only the portal or have 50 options for what to use or try everything in sequence until they find a working thingas for layer shell, that's often used for waybar and such so it's whatever, i can live without it while not implementing layer-shell
(DIR) Post #AwfITeqTsAfqUUyOK8 by technobaboo@ordinary.cafe
2025-07-30T16:54:48Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wolf480pl yep! crashes should be where your app cannot fundamentally run without that protocol, like a game without dmabuf or waybar without layer-shell...
(DIR) Post #AwkiwGUp3E2Xy9wZf6 by technobaboo@ordinary.cafe
2025-08-02T07:44:48Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wolf480pl @lispi314 @lproven wayback seems to be just modern DRM/libinput slapped onto an Xwayland implementation tbh...xwayland-satellite is a full translation layer from X to Wayland, works on any compositor! when ext-zones is done i'm sure it'll use that and have near perfect compat
(DIR) Post #AwlXo7cxEjOfoCccSG by technobaboo@ordinary.cafe
2025-08-02T17:14:50Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wolf480pl @lispi314 @lproven exactly
(DIR) Post #AxAtqWivxGiOANy7RA by technobaboo@ordinary.cafe
2025-08-14T22:49:32Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wolf480pl @BrodieOnLinux that's just automating permission fatigue...
(DIR) Post #AxAu0vGXYyFbB6e3EG by technobaboo@ordinary.cafe
2025-08-14T22:51:27Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux hate to say it... other than remembering the last state the only way is to architect the portals to work in specific contexts certain ways to not require a permission dialog... file chooser works great for this
(DIR) Post #AxW3K6gKK3Z9zd5Tk0 by technobaboo@ordinary.cafe
2025-08-25T03:44:15Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@foone don't forget some people screenshot and crop it too so it's resampled
(DIR) Post #AzvG8r7T8aRfH7PcH2 by technobaboo@ordinary.cafe
2025-11-05T03:20:17Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux someone is gonna frog protocol it
(DIR) Post #AzvIBVzsKJUCXfFwCu by technobaboo@ordinary.cafe
2025-11-05T03:43:11Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BrodieOnLinux let's just hope they never make an app crash without it, idk if I can fit it into stardust
(DIR) Post #B1iPWi4FFZ4bVWH0k4 by technobaboo@ordinary.cafe
2025-12-28T17:22:53Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@scottjenson @picofarad the problem is just the same as bluesky, the people who are on here and made the culture have to deal with others ruining it! personally I love the CWs and wouldn't want to be on here without them so inclusivity in that regard would drive me away...call me when you can solve this problem, because fediblocks don't work at scale except for blocklists which are a nightmare mess as always for so many reasonsalso sorry if that came across as mean i'm autistic and socialed out from christmas so i don't have energy to make it sound nice
(DIR) Post #B1iPg5VHU6v4ncOJ2u by technobaboo@ordinary.cafe
2025-12-28T18:20:08Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@picofarad @scottjenson you can suggest things without being aggressive, i'm generally not aggressive about things but it really is nice that the social norm is to cw stuff like that, eye contact is intimidating to me sometimes!!! it's not even offense, it's just having the labels applied to posts in metadata that no other social media has and if people stop using them then one of my favorite features is gone :(