Post B69L8CSVLxtj0PDHFo by messaroundmarx@zirk.us
(DIR) More posts by messaroundmarx@zirk.us
(DIR) Post #B674f2hkYKYWlzUzfU by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2026-05-09T07:20:17Z
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Right, fediverse, let me know what you think. Long-form comments also welcome.Mastodon instance moderators should…#mastodon #fediverse #moderation #postDeletion
(DIR) Post #B6752yetFQ2FArZfF2 by raphv@social.edu.nl
2026-05-09T07:24:22Z
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@aral that's how you prevent a platform from becoming a nazi bar. You don't just kindly ask your guests to cover their swastika tattoos while they're in the bar.
(DIR) Post #B6756LOTAw5IYSV0AC by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2026-05-09T07:24:26Z
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(Personally, option 1 feels like a violation to me – content belongs to the author not to the host and moderators should no more be deleting other people’s posts than they should be editing them – while option 2 – especially combined with a limit and/or suspension or the threat thereof – is well within the rights of the host regardless of whether I agree with the actual moderation decision itself. Option 1 feels like censorship while option 2 – while it could easily constitute censorship – feels more like moderation to me.)
(DIR) Post #B675AvJfYezb7oRB6u by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2026-05-09T07:26:10Z
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@raphv You can suspend their account.This isn’t about whether you should be moderating or not.It’s about whether you should be able to delete their posts.If someone is posting swastikas I would expect their account to be suspended because the swastika is the symptom and deleting the post isn’t going to delete the Nazi.
(DIR) Post #B675MUqlmgUyW6REkS by eslam94@mastodon.social
2026-05-09T07:28:10Z
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@aral I believe the author should maintain order without being chaotic. If order is disrupted, the host should intervene, otherwise it will become a jungle.
(DIR) Post #B675WTlseNO24BuZZA by zleap@techhub.social
2026-05-09T07:29:29Z
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@aral I think we have seen with mainstream social media, posts of an illegal nature, racism, antisemitism and 'trends' some of which are dangerous, so moderators need now need to protect users from certain content, on the other hand, having this content on there gives a chance to challenge the views presented, something we are good at here.If the law is broken, then evidence needs to also be preserved. If there is extreme content then just deleting it, won't stop it being posted again in the future, the authorities and society need help to tackle these processes at the source.Education is still the key to this, and education starts at home with the parents / .legal guardians.
(DIR) Post #B675qW5Jl4uR28YdIO by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2026-05-09T07:33:36Z
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@zleap Again, the issue I’m asking about here isn’t whether moderators should be able to moderate. It’s a very specific moderation question:Should I be able to delete your posts?Not should I be able to moderate you if you’re on my instance or should I be able to limit or suspend your account.Very specifically:Should I be able to delete your post or should I only be able to ask you to delete it (to unsuspend your account or on threat of suspension, for example).
(DIR) Post #B67615hED7QKNOKep6 by geist@eldritch.cafe
2026-05-09T07:35:25Z
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@aral IMO moderators should still retain the technical ability to forcibly delete posts, e.g. the offender is making threats or is doxxing people.Apart from these extreme cases, there should be a framework of gradual response (possibly also rapid), and it's clear to me that if there is appeal to the offender's responsibility (and a chance to correct course), a refusal to do so should escalate to taking action against the account itself,a post itself may be problematic but the author might also, so I see no point in deleting their posts for them if they are just going to post again.banning a user should take their posts down too though.
(DIR) Post #B6763tqohwTuVW9lvU by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2026-05-09T07:35:37Z
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@eslam94 Hi Eslam, I am not asking whether or not moderation should exist.I’m asking a very specific moderation policy question:Should I be able to delete your posts or should I, for example, suspend your account and ask you to delete your own post if you want your account unsuspended?There is a big difference between the two as to how we view the ownership of what is posted.
(DIR) Post #B6767ye8otfcXTAinI by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2026-05-09T07:36:41Z
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@MontgomeryGator Wow, ok.That’s just… terrible?
(DIR) Post #B676SCCs74xiO23eO8 by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2026-05-09T07:40:23Z
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@zleap Also, I wonder if the response would be different if I’d asked if moderators should be able to edit other people’s posts.If I have a three-post thread and they delete the second one, that’s basically an edit.
(DIR) Post #B676lFwQS489TJSCrA by eslam94@mastodon.social
2026-05-09T07:43:47Z
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@aral Good morning, Aral “Freedom without responsibility turns platforms into chaos. I don’t think moderators should control people’s voices completely by deleting everything themselves, but there also has to be accountability. If someone breaks clear rules, suspending the account and asking the person to remove the post themselves makes more sense to me — because it keeps responsibility on the user, not on moderators acting like owners of everyone’s speech
(DIR) Post #B676urNGe88kAraXnk by zleap@techhub.social
2026-05-09T07:45:32Z
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@aral "if you’re on my instance or should I be able to limit or suspend your account."In this case YES, your instance your rules as long as that is made clear on sign up (which it is) then there should not be a problem, if people don't like following rules, they can set up their own instance, and take on associated costs, risks or liabilities that come from that.
(DIR) Post #B677EHIySc6M6Cq7Ga by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2026-05-09T07:47:53Z
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@bob Accounts: agreed.Individual posts: this is where I have a problem.Limit the account: sure Suspend the account: sureDelete the account: sure Suspend the account or threaten to suspend it if person doesn’t delete a certain post: sureBut the person who wrote it should be the one who deletes it if it’s the post and not the person that is seen as problematic.Otherwise, you’re saying the content doesn’t belong to the author, it belongs to the host.If deleting other people’s posts is all right, why not also edit other people’s posts to reword them or remove the problematic bits as deemed by the particular moderators of a particular server?So, again, this isn’t about whether there should be moderation. It’s a very specific question about where we draw the lines as to who owns the content they author and who has a right to delete it versus, say, remove it from view or ask the person to go elsewhere.
(DIR) Post #B677FjzzGNz5Nfejo0 by tbzhg@mastodon.scot
2026-05-09T07:48:15Z
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@aral I agree. One way could be an option for moderators, when asking people to delete their post, to mark the post as "not conform" (as on twitter with the "note under the post") for other people to know that it's not good, and if the author does not comply, then either to delete the post or to remove the account. Deleting a post is to harsh, at least directly.
(DIR) Post #B677nG317x7SKp3V1k by annehargreaves@ioc.exchange
2026-05-09T07:55:11Z
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@aral Ask, then if not complied with, ban or restrict.
(DIR) Post #B679GAyf9o2ixhN7Ls by iwein@mas.to
2026-05-09T08:11:44Z
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@aral 1. software should streamline reality, but not present it in a misleading way. One that controls the url can do whatever, so it's best to not pretend otherwise.2. In my opinion asking first should be the default, but not the only option.A moderator can slander someone by modifying their online representation without consent. But a moderator is also legally and ethically responsible for what they host. We should pick your moderators with care so that we are moderated with care.
(DIR) Post #B679YPvwI0suYlnPd2 by Layan2002@mastodon.social
2026-05-09T08:15:13Z
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@aral Some lengthy passages are tedious, but some are both enjoyable and informative, like Nadia's story.❤️🩹🕊️
(DIR) Post #B679qZaF9KZzhYIz8i by yetiinabox@todon.nl
2026-05-09T08:18:23Z
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@aral 1) It should be possible for a moderator to _censor_ a post - to ensure, absolutely, that it cannot circulate and will never be read, not even by the person who wrote it. If deletion is the only way to achieve that, then so be it, but ActivityPub is weird that way and I don't think there's a way to actually erase a post across the whole Fedi.2) If it's in the rules for a particular server that the moderator (or, indeed, a bad-word-tracking filter) can and will delete posts, then that's the rules for that instance.3) Obviously there should be efforts to _moderate_ before censoring: queries, blocks, suspensions, kicks - so having to censor should be a desperate last response to an unintentionally horrible post, a takeover, etc. But it needs to be in the toolbox. 4) By that same logic, there may well be posts which should be censored but not deleted, so that the community and the moderators can learn about them.
(DIR) Post #B67AeLclKAF2t1DZVg by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2026-05-09T08:27:26Z
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Actually, here’s what I really think is lacking: a hide post moderation option in Mastodon.Instead of deleting posts, moderators should be able to hide posts.Posts that are hidden by moderators should keep their place in the timeline but state publicly that they were hidden by moderators.(Servers other than the originating server must treat hidden posts as otherwise deleted and remove their local cache of the content. This is no different to the existing social contact for federated deleted.)The server should also clearly communicate to the person in question (this can be automated) and they should be able to challenge the decision via regular channels/an appeal. (And, if they don’t like the moderation, they can move to a different server, etc.)That would feel much better to me than deleting a post outright and it can be combined with a moderation policy that promises not to delete or edit other people’s posts.And it would also allow for an appeal process and the possible reinstatement of a post should it be found that a moderation error had occurred.CC @staff @haubles #mastodon #moderation #fediverse #postDeletion #postHiding #authorship #censorship #ownership
(DIR) Post #B67AjOflPxcbmy1t8y by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2026-05-09T08:28:18Z
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@rooftopjaxx Hah, see my latest post. Yes: I think this is the way.
(DIR) Post #B67AtrFI2T4NIndPU0 by hosebei@infosec.exchange
2026-05-09T08:30:04Z
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@aral we only talk about legal stuff, right? RIGHT?not just shit people feel offended by it?
(DIR) Post #B67BGrbEt9vn3os4fo by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2026-05-09T08:34:20Z
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@hosebei Well, if you’re on someone else’s server, it’s entirely up to them where they draw the line.So it could be anything.Zionists instances, for example moderate differently to instances that oppose settler colonialism, apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and genocide.
(DIR) Post #B67BpZ9fSQYbzUWRTE by hosebei@infosec.exchange
2026-05-09T08:40:26Z
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@aral so, you think it's depending on the instance, what's stays online and what not?Which is totally fair, nobody requires anyone to join or check such a instance.I really think, the options we do have are sufficient, the instance owner decides, on how to act on malicious members.If the member is not happy that its posts are getting deleted, he/her might move or operate its own instance, which is totally accepted by anyone.
(DIR) Post #B67BzqiR1PrVLmghbE by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2026-05-09T08:42:28Z
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@rooftopjaxx Well, it is still censorship but that’s part and parcel of moderation (offensive to whom is the key question in these situations. Offensive to fascists and white supremacists? Moderators on a far-right instance will be moderating differently to those on a progressive one, etc.)
(DIR) Post #B67CGXfj4xfrD6NeZU by brad@1040ste.net
2026-05-09T08:45:19Z
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@aral @staff @haubles Could a third-third (fourth?) way be to mandate a CW rather than hiding it outright, while considering whether to suspend the account?Deleting posts lets people off the hook too easily, while hiding them provokes more suspicion of moderators than a form of CW would.Horses for courses, naturally. I only have to worry about one user, and I mostly follow my rules 😂 I'm all for better tools being available for the mods on larger instances though, it affects all of us.
(DIR) Post #B67CKTHjKdSalL1w2q by morix@loci.onl
2026-05-09T08:45:40Z
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@aral @staff @haubles the ability to replace the served version of a post with a "hidden by moderation" message would likely work, that way there's functionally a placeholder for if it is later unhidden and it can just remanifest back in like an edit almost.
(DIR) Post #B67DC55FWmXVLCku4u by catsalad@infosec.exchange
2026-05-09T08:55:57Z
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@aral I, a non-moderator, want the power to delete OTHER people's posts.I am a good kitty and can be trusted with this power :ablobcatnod:
(DIR) Post #B67EQc3XpjZVbzS2gy by Teratogenese@mamot.fr
2026-05-09T09:09:35Z
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@aral Tbh the way the question is framed (only two options) made me think too fast. Was it a social experiment ?On second thought, it would not be OK to allow mods to delete toots. Account ban would be appropriate in a violation case, as long as the banned person still can reach out to the mods and also transfer their account to another instance.
(DIR) Post #B67GEzEm1LDtwLHsxM by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2026-05-09T09:30:00Z
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@catsalad Haha, I’ve no doubt ;)
(DIR) Post #B67Gcslxhwksq9Cnnk by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2026-05-09T09:33:54Z
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@Teratogenese Not a social experiment, just an early morning post and severe word limit on poll answers :)
(DIR) Post #B67GzPqXQ9ULmt5gO0 by grob@mstdn.social
2026-05-09T09:38:22Z
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@aral I voted "delete" before I read this and would revise my opinion to "should be able to hide permanently from everyone except the author"
(DIR) Post #B67HXXb76mRNfo9F7Q by alien@mastodon.green
2026-05-09T09:43:17Z
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@aral I think that if there only would be a single instance in a social media (not the fediverse design) the censorship thing would make a solid argument. But from my experience, people who post things in a well moderated instance that is required to be deleted (such as insults, offenses, or anything against the accepted rules when signing up) usually refuse to delete themselves and are more likely to keep the harassment, even stronger.If someone is forced into an specific instance and (...)
(DIR) Post #B67IQw8VZlZlhoBOvg by miranda_blue@eldritch.cafe
2026-05-09T09:54:30Z
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@aral I don't exactly know what Mastodon moderators can do, but instance admins at least can ban people and delete accounts, and to me, deleting posts goes in the same ballpark. If you're up to the point where someone does something against the instance rules, in a way so severe you would want to delete the post, and won't change it themself, that person probably has nothing to do on your instance.
(DIR) Post #B67IumoenCWpUG8BTE by alien@mastodon.green
2026-05-09T09:44:56Z
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@aral their posts are deleted without reason or warning that sounds like censorship. But in a place where you can choose multiple instances and you agree on terms on those instances, I see no reason to believe deleting posts is censorship. You can always repost or keep talking in any other instance.
(DIR) Post #B67IuoPYrTduR0PAdE by alien@mastodon.green
2026-05-09T09:47:48Z
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@aral bonus: I like to think the fediverse like a radio. No one will force your voice out, at most you just don't fit in a channel.
(DIR) Post #B67IupUYqNEhmnkg40 by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2026-05-09T09:59:56Z
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@alien The problem is that not all channels are created equal.If mastodon.social blocks my instance of one, they prevent ~750,000 people from following me and seeing my posts.If I block mastodon.social, I prevent ~750,000 people from following me and seeing my posts.
(DIR) Post #B67Jq2u3eaCFt1xcki by lluad@mastodon.ie
2026-05-09T10:05:00Z
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@aral Option 2 would not, for example, allow a moderator to remove CSAM.There’s a need for moderators to have access to the nuclear option, but there also need to be a range of less drastic responses available, to allow building workable policies around that choice.But they must have access to a “delete the post (other than forensic retention) and salt the earth” option.
(DIR) Post #B67KJJOxOMlBSAMulE by alien@mastodon.green
2026-05-09T10:14:44Z
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@aral but you asked about posts, not instances, right? I assumed you were asking about deleting posts on moderated instances, if that's not the question I just didn't understood, sorry for that
(DIR) Post #B67KrE3NmY4IiFRsbQ by BenjaminNelan@mastodon.social
2026-05-09T10:21:37Z
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@aral I'm leaning towards what you've described here.Deletion of the content but not the existence of the post. If I go to your profile it should be representative of your posts. A version of your profile sans the posts my instance chooses to moderate just misrepresents you and the conversations you're in.
(DIR) Post #B67MVIzew0ffZTNlz6 by jrf_nl@phpc.social
2026-05-09T10:40:11Z
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@aral Suspend the account: yes. Delete the post: no.
(DIR) Post #B67NLiGgD3mj17Kk5Y by Christo_459@mastodon.me.uk
2026-05-09T10:49:35Z
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@aral Ask people to delete their post with reasons why. If they refuse then delete but there should be more than one moderator. I've seen folks posts that were deleted that didn't seem in anyway problematic
(DIR) Post #B67Q2tKd9Oe9gttklk by onan@dobbs.town
2026-05-09T11:20:25Z
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@aral I've been Mayor of https://dobbs.town since December 2018. The few times I've asked a SubGenius to re-consider a post, they have (or rage-quit, which solves the problem in a different way). I'm not sure that I've ever deleted a single post.Related: Reports without a call to action may be considered for information purposes only. "Remove this post" is a call to action. "That SubGenius is a jerk" may be true but is not a call to action.:jrbd: https://SubGenius.com
(DIR) Post #B67W9p6nqjJGLU7S08 by qwazix@bananachips.club
2026-05-09T12:28:20Z
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@aral option two seems better to me as well, and allows the user to resign in protest. I'm not deleting it, I'm taking my backups and leaving.On the other hand it also takes everything else down until the user responds.
(DIR) Post #B67aPnHIp66D7MtvXM by byteborg@chaos.social
2026-05-09T13:16:06Z
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@aral your instance, your rules.@eslam94
(DIR) Post #B67dxNsw2XP04TDDI8 by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2026-05-09T13:55:50Z
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Folks, just wanted to say thank you for sharing your thoughts and the great feedback.Also, please see my follow-ups as the character limit in poll options is very limiting.
(DIR) Post #B67fm5LCqUZNHTAwtc by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2026-05-09T14:16:10Z
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@MontgomeryGator It’s also a lie.It’s gaslighting.Nope, do not like.
(DIR) Post #B67hMkaH5AElZaGr8S by SteveClough@metalhead.club
2026-05-09T14:33:56Z
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@aral I went for 1, but I think it should only ever be done after asking, after attempts to find another way around.I don't think mods should delete other poeples posts just because they don't like them, only because they are offensive and have caused problems. It should be in extremis, but should be allowed.
(DIR) Post #B68EIXBUG1ZBLLH3Ee by 74@mastodon.com.pl
2026-05-09T20:42:50Z
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@aral ... as a moderator of a public Mastodon instance I refrain from deleting posts made by *remote* users.This would have effect only on users of my server and would have no disciplinating effect on a moderated remote user (as would probably not even know about this). And if I censor bad posts from an user, then anyone not-suspecting could get an unpleasant surprise...
(DIR) Post #B68LHF0n2JjoN6bKDo by smallcircles@social.coop
2026-05-09T14:34:45Z
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@aral curious if your poll was inspired by mine, where I took a single-person instance as the example of my #ThoughtProvoker toot..https://social.coop/@smallcircles/116542809803489003Like in the responses to your poll it triggered a whole bunch of interesting discussion. Unfortunately all happens on a communication medium where all insights are lost tomorrow (except for those who keep records and archives, I guess :)I think really this is an "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" kind of thing, which is inherent to how we evolve the app-centric fediverse. We try to hammer all forms of communication into a Microblog design.The app platform becomes a straightjacket way of doing things as intended by its developer owners, plus a bag of features to allow variations to that for instance owners, so they can deal with a certain set of edge cases.I'd choose the option "it depends". It is solution-specific. But there needs to be crystal clear mutual expectations and proper management thereof.
(DIR) Post #B68LHGW1RgJb2GDmXg by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2026-05-09T22:01:14Z
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@smallcircles Hadn’t seen it but I have now ;)
(DIR) Post #B68LHOEElgqGxPxgvo by smallcircles@social.coop
2026-05-09T14:42:51Z
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@aral This whole idea of one-size-fits-all Moderation is super weird and unnatural. This is why I am really happy with my - still hobby track, since not earning money from it - exploration of Social experience design. And it constitutes a full-blown field of IT open for anyone to join the adventure of exploration. See how social and cold hard tech can come better together.The way Moderation works now is artificial, band-aids to make a social network arrangement work somewhat better, while it is wholly unfit to carry all the social communication use cases it is applied for. The whole blocking and suspending thing, ram that button when dissatisfied, is a huge blunt hammer to social nuance and leads to often inhumane parasocial online culture. But it is a best-we-have solution to app-centric golden hammer development.
(DIR) Post #B68MJt9YrWEnOxWvLM by light@noc.social
2026-05-09T22:12:52Z
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@aral(third time I have had to type this out as there appears to be a bug in #Fedilab when disconnecting a USB keyboard)To me, being forced to delete a post feels kind of like being forced to self-censor. I would prefer it if the moderator simply deleted or hid my post with a warning.@eslam94
(DIR) Post #B69A5H2KmG0Iq5NGLI by polkillas@neopaquita.es
2026-05-10T07:30:31Z
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@aral This «hide post» is exactly what I was thinking, I think that's a great idea.@staff @haubles
(DIR) Post #B69Bupuey4VJjEw3Ps by danyork@mastodon.social
2026-05-10T07:50:59Z
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@aral @staff @haubles I like what you describe as a default option and process. I do think, though, that moderators/admins should reserve the right to use deletion for content that is illegal or a massive violation of terms of service. If someone posts CSAM, for instance, I don’t think you as an admin *want that on your server*. That kind of vile stuff needs to be removed, in my opinion. If I operated an instance (I don’t), I would want to do that.
(DIR) Post #B69CDnzyJFVnIGStxw by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2026-05-10T07:54:24Z
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@danyork @staff @haubles Agreed.
(DIR) Post #B69L8CSVLxtj0PDHFo by messaroundmarx@zirk.us
2026-05-10T09:34:20Z
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@aral Wow, 2 out of 3 persons (presumably mainly your followers) are voting for the autocrat mode, showing complete disrespect for authors who don't comply with admins' interpretation of server rules. Just kick'm in the ass, is their way to deal with deviants.If they would accept your compromise solution?
(DIR) Post #B69LIzgpAVrOaY3exE by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2026-05-10T09:36:21Z
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@messaroundmarx To be fair, the lack of characters in poll responses meant that I a lot of people took option two to mean “do not moderate at all”.The replies are more interesting.
(DIR) Post #B69LRAYAfpBmaWuPM8 by messaroundmarx@zirk.us
2026-05-10T09:37:48Z
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@aral Okay, maybe retrying with your recent proposal?
(DIR) Post #B69Lj7mrgXGfEPLMHY by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2026-05-10T09:41:01Z
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@messaroundmarx I think it has already reached the right folks ;)