Post B5eJtSCWQ1r1dBNsx6 by davep@infosec.exchange
(DIR) More posts by davep@infosec.exchange
(DIR) Post #B5eJ6VzVXSh7CDxeRU by futurebird@sauropods.win
2026-04-25T10:16:01Z
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How would the world be different today if the US had stayed out of the Vietnam War? I know very little about this war and wouldn't mind maybe reading a book about it. But I don't know where to start. I'd love something that added context without pushing a political agenda. So I don't want an anti-communist book, or really even an explicitly ani-capitalist one. I'd like to think I could understand the power vectors and their impact on ordinary people. This is hard to do!
(DIR) Post #B5eJKHXi3PtGRJWVg8 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2026-04-25T10:18:30Z
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What does a typical US high school education teach about this war?"The US went to Vietnam to save people from Communism, but it got messy and maybe it wasn't worth it."That's about it. This must be... not even close to the whole story. A lot of people including a significant chunk of American soldiers died in this war. When it started the US public supported it. By the time it ended most people didn't, though feelings are "complex."
(DIR) Post #B5eJOiL8MgEOhwkqky by futurebird@sauropods.win
2026-04-25T10:19:18Z
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Learning about the Cuban Missile crisis was much easier. This one is proving harder to understand. But it's also a bigger event.
(DIR) Post #B5eJWGj4urShNjYa3M by jmax@mastodon.social
2026-04-25T10:20:36Z
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@futurebird David Halberstam, "The Best and the Brightest".
(DIR) Post #B5eJbnCfasLJYY22eu by futurebird@sauropods.win
2026-04-25T10:21:40Z
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I you are horrified that I'm a dumb American who doesn't know history I want to warn you that I'm considered a wonky history nerd in most circles (totally unearned) and most people in the US know much much much less than I do. Anyway. Time to learn again.
(DIR) Post #B5eJosl6FalWYBNUQ4 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2026-04-25T10:24:01Z
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@nazokiyoubinbou Yes. Of course I know about MASH. It was a bit of propaganda to help the public deal with "our boys" being over there since obviously you can't lie about how badly it was going for them when they don't come home or are missing a leg or did war crimes and now can't sleep with the light off anymore. We messed up a lot of young men forever. Which is less of a crime than all the civilians that died but still a crime.
(DIR) Post #B5eJtSCWQ1r1dBNsx6 by davep@infosec.exchange
2026-04-25T10:24:49Z
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@futurebird Iirc it started with the French being pretty vicious in Indochine, getting a drubbing, [stuff...] USA gets involved.
(DIR) Post #B5eJuDbIBkawdcKpaS by roknrol@beige.party
2026-04-25T10:24:56Z
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@futurebird Without real context, History was difficult for me to grasp. Now that I'm learning context, I'm seeking out, unherstanding, and remembering more.
(DIR) Post #B5eK1V1RoSUchL2aTA by futurebird@sauropods.win
2026-04-25T10:26:14Z
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@roknrol Yeah, I hated history class because it made no damn sense. Learning as an adult I now find it really interesting. Because the events of the past do make sense, it's just US history as taught in school leaves so much out, contains so many white lies that it's hard to even follow.
(DIR) Post #B5eK8nY1Kn7QBFkyzg by WTL@mastodon.social
2026-04-25T10:27:35Z
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@futurebird That's what makes you not dumb. You understand you don't know anything, and then learn more about things that interest you. I do not understand people who aren't constantly searching and learning new things. It's all so interesting!
(DIR) Post #B5eKLMJ3vb1PSRkXKa by futurebird@sauropods.win
2026-04-25T10:29:51Z
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@roknrol "But, Mr. Block why would the the USSR put nuclear missiles in Cuba? They had to know the US would be frightened and angry about that?""Well they just wanted the whole world to be communist. They really thought communism would work. We don't have time to dwell on this there are six more units we need to complete before the AP exam."
(DIR) Post #B5eKOpNQIlG8UERYTg by david_chisnall@infosec.exchange
2026-04-25T10:30:29Z
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@futurebird @roknrol This was one of the things that history in UK schools (at least, mine) did pretty well. Covering the domino theory, why people in the US believed it, why they got involved, why their tactics failed, the war crimes, and so on. It’s probably easier to teach something like that from an outside perspective. Even trying to avoid it, there was a lot of implicit jingoism in how we were taught about the world wars.
(DIR) Post #B5eKhc12CaZaY9vcp6 by vikxin@beach.city
2026-04-25T10:33:53Z
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@futurebird @roknrol Curricula love to leave out the part where the US had nuclear missiles in Turkey
(DIR) Post #B5eKjvBbth06aMyaf2 by Illuminatus@mstdn.social
2026-04-25T10:34:17Z
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@futurebird USAmericans not learning about their imperialist, anti-communist wars is like Spaniard's not learning about the Spanish Civil War: something by design, because the people who benefited from it do not want most people to understand and learn from it.
(DIR) Post #B5eKpXPpBn98bEIr8C by raganwald@social.bau-ha.us
2026-04-25T10:35:12Z
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@futurebird@sauropods.wi Low-effort snark, but: “History is anything the ruling elite want memory-holed. Everything else is propaganda.” @roknrol
(DIR) Post #B5eKw7avaaSEXodU5A by wyatt_h_knott@mstdn.social
2026-04-25T10:29:34Z
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@roknrol @futurebird For me growing up, I learned a LOT about Vietnam, which was my father's war, because I lived through the time when they finally made a bunch of movies about it. Not Apocalypse Now (panned by my Dad) but Platoon, and Hamburger Hill and a few others. But we also are of the generation that had units on it in college, and it's because so many of us had parents who were involved. There is also a big legacy of personal accounts that have been made into books about the war.
(DIR) Post #B5eKw8XQ57F5TE0CFk by wyatt_h_knott@mstdn.social
2026-04-25T10:30:11Z
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@roknrol @futurebird Like "Flight of the Intruder"
(DIR) Post #B5eKw9YAJpQubpMJ3Q by wyatt_h_knott@mstdn.social
2026-04-25T10:32:00Z
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@roknrol @futurebird The "best" material I have found on Vietnam is on Youtube: videos of broadcast news reports made by reporters actually stationed with American troops going into Vietnamese villages, but that was censored from the evening news at the time.
(DIR) Post #B5eKwABrwDByaxw0wK by wyatt_h_knott@mstdn.social
2026-04-25T10:35:42Z
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@roknrol @futurebird One of the most compelling histories I have read was an account by a guy who was a Huey pilot and did all the troop transport missions into and out of combat, and how they would land the helicopters in the river so that the water would wash the blood out the doors. There's stuff like that that you will never get from a history book.
(DIR) Post #B5eKwAn5hoxySPLjxQ by futurebird@sauropods.win
2026-04-25T10:36:26Z
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@wyatt_h_knott @roknrol I think I have a decent understanding of how the war progressed once it started. But I don't really get why it started.
(DIR) Post #B5eL77of6cfmPuJ5Au by david_chisnall@infosec.exchange
2026-04-25T10:38:30Z
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@futurebird @roknrol There’s always a lot of context that’s implicit even to the people writing history. For example, consider Irish and English history. There’s a common narrative that Ireland was oppressed by the English, and there’s a lot of evidence to support that implicitly nationalist telling. But there’s another story that the Normans (Norse folks who had settled in Northern France) invaded England and installed themselves as a new aristocracy. After about a hundred years, they’d run out of land to give to their friends and so conquered Ireland as well and installed themselves as an aristocracy there. They then continued to oppress both countries, Ireland more so than England. When the Irish rebelled, they recruited English regiments (from people whose other option was usually starvation) to kill the rebels. The classist narrative also has a lot of evidence to support it.
(DIR) Post #B5eLDbpcQEIdFHqWTg by lizzard@social.tchncs.de
2026-04-25T10:39:39Z
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@futurebird you didn't need to say that others know even less about history: it's obvious from your recent election results.
(DIR) Post #B5eLEgQ4qig9lTPZT6 by wyatt_h_knott@mstdn.social
2026-04-25T10:39:52Z
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@futurebird @roknrol THey killed Kennedy over Cuba and communism, then Johnson became President, and still believed in the power of the American military. He wanted to go in, get rid of the communists, and start a development program to damn the me kong river and turn it into a powerhouse like the TVA - American companies pushed for the war. "Domino Theory" was really a cover for corporate colonialism.
(DIR) Post #B5eLHk8FVFJS9CX13g by golgaloth@writing.exchange
2026-04-25T10:40:24Z
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@futurebird To understand the Vietnam War you have to understand the Korean War. In which the Americans lost half of Korea.
(DIR) Post #B5eLNOW6mSMUqYO0q8 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2026-04-25T10:41:28Z
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@wyatt_h_knott @roknrol But if communism is so bad it will just fail on its own. Just stand back and watch while you keep trading and making money. This only makes sense if we talk about power rather than ideology. Who gets to have power...
(DIR) Post #B5eLcKeHRd6zC3Kc8e by wyatt_h_knott@mstdn.social
2026-04-25T10:44:06Z
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@futurebird @roknrol Yep, and at the time, they were looking at what they thought was a multi-polar world, with a VERY SUCCESSFUL Soviet Union to compete against - it wasn't the Chinese we were worried about so much as the Soviets. They still believed in the centrality of European economies to world order, were afraid of more Russian expansion to the west after Poland etc and wished to fight "somewhere else" that wasn't so close to home. So, Vietnam.
(DIR) Post #B5eMU6pD3arHxQ5Q36 by 3janeTA@beige.party
2026-04-25T10:53:51Z
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@futurebird my history classes usually stopped right after WWII. We were out of time somehow. Never got taught even Korean War, certainly not Vietnam. I always wondered why, figured it was less settled and living people still had big feelings and opinions, but felt even as a teen that we were missing out.
(DIR) Post #B5eMUm4tgAlhtwk1h2 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2026-04-25T10:53:55Z
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@vikxin @roknrol I was so annoyed by this and shocked that I found my HS history book (bought a copy on ebay) and looked it up. Because, I thought, there is no way that it wasn't mentioned at least... you know maybe they played it down, right?NOPE.There were only two paragraphs on the Cuban Missile crisis and they omitted the initial US aggression entirely. This makes it impossible to understand the event. Turns the story into nonsense.
(DIR) Post #B5eMafRtEt2N4xJ2hs by futurebird@sauropods.win
2026-04-25T10:55:04Z
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@3janeTA "Don't worry about the recent history that has shaped the world you live in, nothing important has happened in the last 50 years." I didn't buy that line either. Come on man.
(DIR) Post #B5eMi8alHgExUY1AJc by count_01@mastodon.social
2026-04-25T10:56:23Z
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@futurebird I hate to recommend it as a place "to start," but Halberstam's 'Best and the Brightest ' is a grand summer read and gives a pretty worthy multi-angle view of the question "what was that about?" If you want to ease into it and actually enjoy the process, might I suggest the novel "The Quiet American"? (fair warning: it is emotionally demanding)
(DIR) Post #B5eMxKjsP7FdVbWkIy by futurebird@sauropods.win
2026-04-25T10:59:10Z
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@vikxin @roknrol When the book came in the mail I took it out of the box and was stunned by how small it was in my hands. This was my middle school "US History" book. But I had smaller hands when I studied it. I thought I was so sophisticated putting post-it notes and little pencil underlining on the key sections. I knew I was having trouble in history and really wanted to be a better student. :(
(DIR) Post #B5eN5LRzdtFs23yyvo by futurebird@sauropods.win
2026-04-25T11:00:36Z
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@vikxin @roknrol I remembered the book as something substantial and imposing. So heavy I hated when I had to carry it in my bag. Intimidating because it was the "Honors" history book and it had words like "hegemony" in it that I had to look up.
(DIR) Post #B5eNDaBKkuYY2N7OPQ by d_a_n_a@mstdn.social
2026-04-25T11:02:03Z
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@futurebird How about David Halberstam's 1972 book about the origins of the war, "The Best and the Brightest"?
(DIR) Post #B5eNSDC4VV4P5JRHyy by 3janeTA@beige.party
2026-04-25T11:04:43Z
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@futurebird yeah! Then why does even talking about it make my uncles and grandpa make faces and start pontificating? Clearly something’s up and I’d rather know what it is then stumble into an argument!
(DIR) Post #B5eNSqRgZNjUp22oEa by futurebird@sauropods.win
2026-04-25T11:04:44Z
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@vikxin @roknrol I won't call the book "trash" ... most of what was in it was true. However, it just didn't contain very much. This was a "progressive" US history from the 80s. I went to a very liberal school. We even read a few chapters from Howard Zinn once. But even so there were many things obscured and omitted.
(DIR) Post #B5eNb8VLJK4H9DhzIO by futurebird@sauropods.win
2026-04-25T11:06:21Z
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@3janeTA If we ever get out of this ugly little era we can't pretend that it didn't happen. There is a lesson here.
(DIR) Post #B5eO5V5vsxaVthImcC by futurebird@sauropods.win
2026-04-25T11:11:49Z
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@makary @3janeTA Every day!"end of history"the NERVE of that man... "end of history my ass"
(DIR) Post #B5eOtmD8WQPvSfe35k by futurebird@sauropods.win
2026-04-25T11:20:56Z
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@nazokiyoubinbou Yes. Normalizing propaganda specifically. War is in inevitable and unquestionable condition. War and conflict are like the weather, a natural disaster rather than a man made one. And we must cope, we must survive but never question the entire premise?Does that make sense?
(DIR) Post #B5ePAAz8BEUuvjuixM by futurebird@sauropods.win
2026-04-25T11:23:53Z
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@nazokiyoubinbou It's a good show with good writing and the writers did some good work. But why was it allowed to exist? What role did it play in shaping the story we tell to ourselves? It's like "Law and Order" and other cop shows in that way. (I love Law and Order, but it's also propaganda) ... this is the effective kind of propaganda, admitting many truths.
(DIR) Post #B5ePGnCmzV2PCpSQAS by futurebird@sauropods.win
2026-04-25T11:25:05Z
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@nazokiyoubinbou I don't use "propaganda" as a synonym for "bad" or "evil" ...
(DIR) Post #B5eY0LfQVaDUkh5OK0 by MolluskGoneBad@mastodon.social
2026-04-25T13:02:53Z
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@futurebird @roknrol As a Gen X-er, when I was younger I assumed my parents' generation seeming to be obsessed with WW2 & early cold war history was about lionizing their parents and that generation. (and I'm sure it was to some extent) But when I hit the age they were at I found myself realizing I had huge gaps in my understanding starting from the years leading up to my childhood and every new revelation hit(s) like a brick. Think I get more where some of that obsession came from.
(DIR) Post #B5ebQFoZBrthzaPCa0 by bucknam@mastodon.social
2026-04-25T13:41:13Z
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@futurebird I remember how amazed I was to learn (not in high school) that the colonial occupation of Vietnam began waaaay back in the 1800s by the French, and it was that occupation that fomented the eventually successful communist state movement led by Ho Chi Minh. Of course, now, I know I should not have been so surprised about such a colonial arc, as they were and are so common to the story of so many countries and peoples — not least of all our own.
(DIR) Post #B5ed7U8fuOQepBzNgG by jhaas@a2mi.social
2026-04-25T14:00:14Z
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@futurebird @wyatt_h_knott @roknrol It becomes important to follow history via power first and stated ideology as a thing only in service to power.I had a class on Soviet politics years ago at U. A lesson from the prof was critique of what was stated to be the state philosophy vs. what was implemented. The ready example was how everyone in the state was supposed to be equal, and the highlight privilege within party leadership.Then he'd hold the mirror up and ask the same.
(DIR) Post #B5eemncwSNNX5qPUau by carl@chaos.social
2026-04-25T14:18:54Z
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@futurebird History is not about the past. It is about the reception of the past by present powerful and ruling class. @roknrol
(DIR) Post #B5eiGsqduRbJpsr6Q4 by gwaldby@mastodon.social
2026-04-25T14:57:59Z
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I read a lot about the Vietnam war in the 1980s. One book, that must be out of print, described how Nixon and Kissinger directed bombing of Cambodia, without Congressional approval. This lead to the rise of Pol Pot, and the death of 1/2 of the Cambodians.
(DIR) Post #B5eiVIZX4575fhj3rs by gwaldby@mastodon.social
2026-04-25T15:00:26Z
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@futurebird @roknrol "Lies My Teacher Told Me" by James Loewen describes how and why US High School history education is so wrong.
(DIR) Post #B5esY1hdExNtlLSCGW by draken@masto.nyc
2026-04-25T16:53:07Z
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@futurebird I learned about the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, Zippo Raids, and Charlie's tactics.
(DIR) Post #B5f8gUqCO5mdiTWOu0 by YakyuNightOwl@mastodon.world
2026-04-25T19:53:55Z
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@futurebird We learned a lot from our classmates who were refugees, but the history books fell suspiciously silent after 1945.
(DIR) Post #B5fEuci8WW3zu5s02a by CuriousMagpie@beige.party
2026-04-25T21:03:42Z
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@futurebird you could start with this :https://www.pbs.org/kenburns/the-vietnam-war/
(DIR) Post #B5fKzUuRYXZmsfKlEm by lienrag@mastodon.tedomum.net
2026-04-25T22:11:33Z
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@futurebird Maybe not what you're looking for, but Ngo Van's memories, "Au pays de la cloche fêlée", are an interesting angle (as a trotskyst, he had to flee both the French and the Viet-Minh).I wasn't entirely convinced by his writing style, though.
(DIR) Post #B5fLa9bZjC3nWMzHto by lienrag@mastodon.tedomum.net
2026-04-25T22:18:22Z
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@futurebird In his biography of Ho Chi Minh, Jean Lacouture mentions that the Haiphong bombing (where the French navy considered that after what WWII had normalized, killing a few thousand civilians was a normal warning shot to the Viet-Minh, while for the Vietnamese, it actually appeared as a proof that war was inevitable against such barbarians) nearly didn't happen.1/?
(DIR) Post #B5fNsB1vMtuj3s29uS by lienrag@mastodon.tedomum.net
2026-04-25T22:44:03Z
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@futurebird The risk was not that Communism could fail, it is that it could succeed.In 1954 the Viet-Minh already had authoritarian tendencies that had been entrenched by the enormous hardships of the war, but there was still a good chance that it could succeed to bring a somehow egalitarian and prosperous transformation - and at least that it would do better than both the awful colonial regimes and the awful neighboring neocolonial regimes.@wyatt_h_knott @roknrol
(DIR) Post #B5fOFBwG9kHUXXMHhI by futurebird@sauropods.win
2026-04-25T22:48:19Z
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@lienrag @wyatt_h_knott @roknrol In a world with slavery, and child marriage and child slavery and other horrors how did so much of the US public learn to be scared of "communism" of all things?
(DIR) Post #B5fOdLivQZhTpydmt6 by lienrag@mastodon.tedomum.net
2026-04-25T22:52:34Z
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@futurebird Because their leaders got scared that communism could end slavery, child marriage and child slavery and other horrors ?The West really made peace with the USSR only after Stalin came to power, when they were reassured that he was as determined as they were to never let the people get actual political power but would crush any attempt at genuine workers' democracy.@wyatt_h_knott @roknrol