Post B2FIPT1jAANIQHglaC by jamesh@aus.social
(DIR) More posts by jamesh@aus.social
(DIR) Post #B2EcH3SM9Zw4j4Rz16 by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2026-01-13T06:41:40Z
1 likes, 2 repeats
It is actually kind of wild that we're simultaneously in an era of people complaining that Wayland is destroying choice and also maybe the greatest number of high-quality desktop environments aimed at different use cases the free software world has ever had
(DIR) Post #B2EcH4NQjNaba59Yye by ignaloidas@not.acu.lt
2026-01-13T07:11:57.770Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mjg59@nondeterministic.computer look, people want to keep using their own low-quality desktop environments that they grew accustomed to
(DIR) Post #B2EcHDknrqdKfB9r9s by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2026-01-13T06:42:59Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
I'm pretty fascinated about why this is happening and my gut feeling is that people have simply written better abstraction layers on top of Wayland than were possible on top of X and now people can just write shit without needing to care anywhere near as much about the sharp edges that exist everywhere
(DIR) Post #B2EcHNigoYstZWFJFg by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2026-01-13T06:45:34Z
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And yeah there's all sorts of cases where X exposes functionality that doesn't really exist in Wayland and I understand people wanting that but also I shared my desktop with some people today on a call and got a notification icon letting me know it was happening and I didn't have to rely on the client to behave correctly for that to be something I could rely on
(DIR) Post #B2EcHbeb0ZvcmsREoa by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2026-01-13T07:00:13Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
So: In the past the infrastructure was simpler, the underlying hardware was simpler, the number of use cases you had to satisfy was smaller. And now everything is fundamentally more complicated and you're competing with platforms that have millions of absolutely normal computer users using them. But we've also got greater avenues of sharing knowledge, collaboration, better understanding of how to build abstractions. Was the golden age 30 years ago, or is it now?
(DIR) Post #B2EilrDIK109SPTang by sesquipedality@mendeddrum.org
2026-01-13T07:11:20Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mjg59 i honestly understand bugger all about the technical details but it does seem weird to me that a screensaver is apparently deep magic that cannot be comprehended by Wayland.
(DIR) Post #B2EilsRrjKFdHtIk9Q by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2026-01-13T07:12:11Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sesquipedality Screen *locking* is actually pretty arcane magic and it's been very bound up in screen saving and as a result the complexity of both has become conflated
(DIR) Post #B2EiltTfu5ICTn9hbs by sesquipedality@mendeddrum.org
2026-01-13T07:33:19Z
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@mjg59 jwz says he can't port xacreensaver to Wayland and I guess he'd know. It's just so Linux for a bunch of people to go around saying "but we don't need (locking) screensavers any more" which (a) misses the (lack of) point spectacularly and (b) is arguably wrong in the case of OLED screens. I have no skin in the game really and will probably use Wayland when it makes its way into Mint, but it seems like something every other windowing systern can do and the design should have allowed for.
(DIR) Post #B2EilumV3ZweWSyFai by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2026-01-13T07:35:42Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sesquipedality Devolving locking to the desktop environment makes it harder to plug in a screensaver in the process, but that's also true back in the X days in terms of Gnome taking over screen locking - it's not inherently a Wayland thing (but also Wayland doesn't make it practical to have a separate app take that role on)
(DIR) Post #B2EilvhDehJbMNVY00 by ignaloidas@not.acu.lt
2026-01-13T08:24:43.370Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mjg59@nondeterministic.computer @sesquipedality@mendeddrum.org I'm 90% certain that drawing stuff on top of everything and disappearing could be done with the existing wlr_layer_shell protocol that's implemented by many compositors, so what you need for the rest is to trigger the screensaver on idle. There's org_kde_kwin_idle which would seem to be perfectly fit for that, but only kwin has implemented it so far.
(DIR) Post #B2EjftO3QZnYPnEEsq by tmcfarlane@toot.community
2026-01-13T07:07:01Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mjg59 I'm just grumpy because I never cared about any of the things Wayland fixes, but I do care that I've had a nice, usable, a credible working xmonad config for 11 years , and porting xmonad is, AIUI essentially impossible (if not literally, then by virtue of being an unapproachably massive task). Old man hates change. Not much of a news story.
(DIR) Post #B2Ejfuk4OD0EcMXKq0 by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2026-01-13T07:07:57Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tmcfarlane So keep running that there's literally infrastructure that exists to make that possible
(DIR) Post #B2EjfvyHopy8QkCCdU by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2026-01-13T07:10:19Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@tmcfarlane And sorry that's kind of flippant but we're in this bizarre space where free software is supposed to meet the needs of users currently using proprietary software but also we're never supposed to change anything ever and there's really no way to manage all of this! But the beauty of free software is that if enough people care the old style can be maintained for as long as they keep caring which is something that just won't happen in the proprietary world
(DIR) Post #B2Ejfx2vp3HLlRNQW0 by aeva@mastodon.gamedev.place
2026-01-13T08:23:18Z
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@mjg59 @tmcfarlane I thought free software was supposed to meet the needs of the people who use free software
(DIR) Post #B2Ejfxn13i8s4MwELY by ignaloidas@not.acu.lt
2026-01-13T08:34:50.869Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@aeva@mastodon.gamedev.place @mjg59@nondeterministic.computer @tmcfarlane@toot.community meeting the needs of the people is a personal choice. It is provided with no warranties, with no guarantees of it being fit for any kind of use. Because a bunch of people are nice, it doesn't mean that anyone actually needs to be.
(DIR) Post #B2Eky0FGld4kquJrHc by jamesh@aus.social
2026-01-13T08:44:50Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ignaloidas @mjg59 @sesquipedality There is the ext-session-lock-v1 protocol, but it is not supported in the most widely used compositors (presumably because they implement their own screen lockers): https://wayland.app/protocols/ext-session-lock-v1#compositor-supportUnfortunately, it bundles screen locking (i.e. being responsible for deciding when to unlock the screen) together with drawing the screen saver animation. You can't leave locking decisions up to the compositor and just render the screen saver to a surface when requested.
(DIR) Post #B2Eky1WK1iJIo5IzVA by ignaloidas@not.acu.lt
2026-01-13T08:49:24.536Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@jamesh@aus.social @mjg59@nondeterministic.computer @sesquipedality@mendeddrum.org I wouldn't say that it bundles screen locking with drawing a screen saver - the locking program may do that, but doesn't have to. I believe that even with a screen locker active you could still draw a screensaver with wlr_layer_shell, though I'm not certain because the interaction isn't docu,ented afaik
(DIR) Post #B2EnutLMGsNiRNNKWO by jamesh@aus.social
2026-01-13T09:09:30Z
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@ignaloidas @mjg59 @sesquipedality The protocol I linked to definitely combines the two: the client doing screen locking decides when to lock the screen and when to unlock again.I'm not sure wlr_layer_shell would help here: if the compositor is locking the screen, it's going to hide all the application surfaces. Saying you want your application window to be displayed on top of other application windows isn't going to change that.
(DIR) Post #B2EnuuM6VaZXZyjRK4 by ignaloidas@not.acu.lt
2026-01-13T09:22:28.477Z
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@jamesh@aus.social @mjg59@nondeterministic.computer @sesquipedality@mendeddrum.org unless screen locking for you implies sceeen savers (for me it doesn't) I don't see how it would? It's a protocol to have a lockscreen, that handles locking and unlocking. Whether there's something else shown during on idle isn't a concern - the lock screen could do it, but it doesn't have to, if the compositor wants it can show something on top of it
(DIR) Post #B2F3Wr4Ofg5Bhp0C7E by wouter@pleroma.debian.social
2026-01-13T12:14:55.944845Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@GyrosGeierThis, but then awesomewm. I think a more globally useful approach would be to write something that implements the part of an X11 server that the window manager talks to, but that looks like Wayland to the applications. This way, people who really don't want to migrate away from their X11-only environment can keep using it and still use Wayland. This is probably naive and not possible, but meh, one can dream.@ignaloidas @mjg59
(DIR) Post #B2F3WrvDVIKkLdiNRg by ignaloidas@not.acu.lt
2026-01-13T12:17:22.827Z
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@wouter@pleroma.debian.social @GyrosGeier@hachyderm.io @mjg59@nondeterministic.computer there's some ideas about doing something like that with Wayback (which is essentially utilizing XWayland to provide a X server that isn't using the most crufty and least maintained parts of Xorg)
(DIR) Post #B2F4UzSkb0fx6v4HeS by wouter@pleroma.debian.social
2026-01-13T12:26:02.191575Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ignaloidasMy understanding of Wayback was that it is a way to provide an X11 implementation that uses the Wayland backend, rather than a way to shoehorn the Wayland frontend under an X11 window manager, which is what I'm suggesting. Of course my understanding can be wrong, in which case a link to more information would be welcomed by a promise for your favourite beverage at my cost if you look for me at the next FOSDEM 😉@mjg59 @GyrosGeier
(DIR) Post #B2F4V0mzfESjDzXxqK by ignaloidas@not.acu.lt
2026-01-13T12:28:17.185Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wouter@pleroma.debian.social @mjg59@nondeterministic.computer @GyrosGeier@hachyderm.io I thought there were some discussions about also providing a way for the XWayland to see wayland clients as well, but apparently not and they link to a couple of projects that do what you want in the FAQ https://wayback.freedesktop.org/docs/faq/
(DIR) Post #B2FIPT1jAANIQHglaC by jamesh@aus.social
2026-01-13T14:35:38Z
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@ignaloidas @mjg59 @sesquipedality Perhaps take a look at swaylock, which makes use of this protocol extension.The other lock screen stuff it is doing is presenting a password prompt and doing PAM authentication to check that the password typed in is correct.You could implement an animated screensaver with this protocol extension (since you could draw whatever you want on the lock screen surface you provide). But it would be nice to be able to do so without being required to do auth or make policy decisions about when to engage the lock.
(DIR) Post #B2FIPULcFhsUWG0ADo by ignaloidas@not.acu.lt
2026-01-13T15:04:09.163Z
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@jamesh@aus.social @mjg59@nondeterministic.computer @sesquipedality@mendeddrum.org I do know how it's used, but I just see it purely as a part of authentication policy, rather than any kind of screensaver stuff. Showing images instead of the desktop is for security first, with aesthetics taking a backseat. Screensavers meanwhile are primarily an aesthetic device, and have very little to do with the security side of things in my mind. ext-session-lock is very much a security focused extension - it's not the right place to use for aesthetics minded stuff.
(DIR) Post #B2FxsCGAg4hqwJGLmS by wouter@pleroma.debian.social
2026-01-13T22:42:21.804993Z
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@ignaloidasNot quite.These are all 'I have a native Wayland application that I want to run in my X11 session'. That's a cool thing, but not what I want to do. I want to *run* a Wayland environment. Everything should be Wayland, with standard fallback to the XWayland thing for stuff that isn't supported yet.Except that I just want the UI to be a window manager that expects X11.@mjg59 @GyrosGeier
(DIR) Post #B2FxsDYzpZMIyz4tlI by ignaloidas@not.acu.lt
2026-01-13T22:48:45.360Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wouter@pleroma.debian.social @mjg59@nondeterministic.computer @GyrosGeier@hachyderm.io wayback + one of those wayland to x11 basically does this, no? I can't think of a way of exposing only the window management bits of x11
(DIR) Post #B2FxsKWlwEjsa75ilc by wouter@pleroma.debian.social
2026-01-13T22:43:50.318642Z
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@ignaloidasTo put it otherwise. I think what I want is a Wayland compositor that doesn't provide a UI, but that instead provides some sort of compatibility layer so you can hook up a window manager to do the actual UI work.@GyrosGeier @mjg59