Post B1jzL1cSWQKyBAxqeO by zl2tod@mastodon.online
(DIR) More posts by zl2tod@mastodon.online
(DIR) Post #B1jtote889sIPibfI8 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-29T11:32:34Z
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I'm astonished by the responses to my post about dowsing. Not only is dowsing alive and well, it's wormed its way into the work of police departments and water sanitation. Likewise many people swear up and down that the experience of dowsing is intrinsically compelling and if I'd just try it I'd feel this and maybe be a bit less certain that it is nonsense. After all we do not know everything about the world.And maybe it works in some logical way we have yet to fully understand. etc.
(DIR) Post #B1juJJZ2KiQdU4jEC8 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-29T11:38:03Z
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I could chase down the studies on dowsing (which have been done) I could explain about confirmation bias, gambler's paradoxes and the workings of the human mind. I could enter the debate.I don't want to do this. The interface between the mythical and the material can be porous in our minds. Pretending that this isn't the case is a kind of self delusion. But if there is a hypothesis that can be tested, as with dowsing, I don't have much tolerance for the myth. We need to let it go.
(DIR) Post #B1juOq6skuiDs5C5Qm by WTL@mastodon.social
2025-12-29T11:39:01Z
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@futurebird Good grief. About as useful as astrology; it’s fraud, pure and simple.
(DIR) Post #B1judsfVWeBg9MYtnM by jerzone@techhub.social
2025-12-29T11:41:45Z
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@futurebird Years ago I was taking bus ride to Boston and was the only passenger for part of the trip. Reading a book (Longitude), I made a sound after reading a passage and the driver asked what was up.“There's a contest to find longitude and one of the entrants proposes wounding a dog on the ship, then remote healing it at the top of the hour back home. Doing this every hour.”I figured the driver would shake his head in wonder, but instead he replied, “I believe in remote healing.”
(DIR) Post #B1jugseY2VwCyFXl7g by sinvega@mas.to
2025-12-29T11:42:18Z
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@futurebird My guess for why this one persists: it's fun to faff around with a wobbly stick. It's very simple "magic" with no skill or work needed (fake work in scamming people still takes effort, typically). And there's not yet a non-bullshit way to do what it pretends to, so magical gibberish sneaks back inI don't think it's going anywhere, unfortunately
(DIR) Post #B1jv0L8iLqeUp2vsZs by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-29T11:45:50Z
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@sinvega I have a soft spot for rituals. I have a soft spot for myths. I struggle with the ways to keep them around, to treat them with respect without allowing them a place in material decisions that might put us in peril. I would love it if someone would teach me the art of dowsing. I want to know all about it and buy in for the experience. But seeing no way it can work, and no evidence but the inconclusive? I shouldn't be taken as a science. Is that too much to ask?
(DIR) Post #B1jvjFMSgJqvvsmAWO by sinvega@mas.to
2025-12-29T11:53:55Z
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@futurebird not at all! If it was a silly fun thing to play pretend with the kids while you're doing the random trial and error / slow methodical bit by bit search, I can sort of get thatbut adults atually thinking that it works, even paid professionals, when it's been getting fully debunked since the 16th century? come ON
(DIR) Post #B1jwKz7pUkXGa7vWaW by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-29T12:00:45Z
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@sinvega That is why I don't feel like going through the debunking. And there hasn't just been DEbunking. There has also been desperate proper bunking too. People trying their best to show that it works. Because if it did work, even just a little wouldn't it be wonderful?
(DIR) Post #B1jwNAatpD0GjNZ98q by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-29T12:01:11Z
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@sinvega And if it did work, you could harness that power (let's say that dowsing was better than random chance by just a few percent) by simply increasing the number of dowsers. Have 100 people out there with the rods and through the power of statistics you could squeeze certainty from the noise. No one does this. One must wonder why.
(DIR) Post #B1jwRcRuCdnsHPTrRQ by DrorBedrack@mastodon.social
2025-12-29T12:01:53Z
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@futurebird Some of those things just refuse to go away. I remember reading in St Augustine (of all places...) a disproving of Astrology, and thinking how absurd it is that it was debunked 1500 (-ish) years ago, and still people believe in it
(DIR) Post #B1jwhWu0aq9Bi6DE8W by sinvega@mas.to
2025-12-29T12:04:49Z
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@futurebird I think you have the right attitude here. It may not have the malice, but it's a similar principle to the "don't waste energy refuting blatant lies they'll just make more of in seconds" thing.
(DIR) Post #B1jwoo3rCB08xFHxbM by JonnyT@mastodon.me.uk
2025-12-29T12:06:05Z
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@futurebird "Likewise many people swear up and down that the experience of dowsing is intrinsically compelling"There are people who still buy ear candles. For everyone who tries one 'it works' because there's a big glob of ear wax in the base of the candle at the end.So imagine people's shock when one such candle pulled ear wax out of my (washed) hand when I used it as an 'ear' in a control experiment.Being sceptical and knowing how to do controls is a valuable skill that not everyone has.
(DIR) Post #B1jx3BXmgTMBq58wS0 by SeanPLynch@mastodon.social
2025-12-29T12:08:41Z
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@futurebird @sinvega Multiple tests were performed...https://skepticalinquirer.org/1979/10/a-controlled-test-of-dowsing-abilities/https://www.skeptics.com.au/resources/articles/australian-skeptics-divining-test/
(DIR) Post #B1jxDJ6BRyQSAL3lcO by pewnack@aus.social
2025-12-29T12:10:31Z
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@futurebird When it comes to my ME/CFS many people are the same about "traditional" Chinese "medicine", or naturopathy, homoeopathy, acupuncture, etc etc.If I haven't tried it, because it's bullshit, a scam or otherwise failed to be proved by standards we'd expect of any treatment to be funded under the pharmaceutical benefits scheme (Australia), I "mustn't actually want to get well" - verbatim quote from do many incredulous morons and ultimately people I don't ever want to speak to ever again.#JunkScience #MECFS
(DIR) Post #B1jxmYFd6dGpINHfCC by GavinChait@wandering.shop
2025-12-29T12:16:53Z
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@futurebird I remember arriving by taxi at Islamabad International Airport & all the security were dowsing for bombs (with that water pistol with a bunny aerial sticking out the front), & I went, "Oh, that's nice."
(DIR) Post #B1jy83HquW5rdHZlE8 by toerror@mastodon.gamedev.place
2025-12-29T12:20:47Z
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@futurebird @sinvega I think the thing for magical beleivers is that doubt will ruin the expermient...I tried dowsing with copper rods when I was around eleven, we did seem to find drainage ditches, but I suspect that the ground being slightly contoured around it's area causes your balance to change and the rods to cross ( you're holding them in a really delicate balance ); Experiments to prove dowsing real / fake tend to remove the ground contour since it would allow the dousers to "cheat".
(DIR) Post #B1jy9wGTzPW8Qupops by fritzoids@mas.to
2025-12-29T12:21:10Z
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@futurebird @sinvega you could use it for inconsequential things, just like people use a coin flip to figure out what they really want to do.So... dowsing for where to put that new plant you bought, dowsing which ice cream flavors you should get, dowsing for where to go sit down and read your book.I used to get various daily horoscopes in my inbox for a while and then each day I'd choose the one I liked best and that gave me a little lift each morning.
(DIR) Post #B1jybdjaTm0f4Oeo52 by darkling@mstdn.social
2025-12-29T12:26:09Z
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@futurebird @sinvega Oh, it doesn't work if you're skeptical. Causes bad vibes that disrupt the cosmic energies.(/s in case it wasn't obvious)
(DIR) Post #B1jz3T47jsOy5cX452 by btuftin@social.coop
2025-12-29T12:31:10Z
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@futurebird I took a course as a kid. Used the two L-shaped rods, probably the easiest way to get to the unstable equilibrium required.Work on holding them so they swing freely, but point straight, while standing still. Then the same while moving. And then you're ready to walk over a known target and subconsciously _not_ correct for the instability. Any challenges can be explained by "it works differently/less for some" or "you must be picking up on X" or "you're too skeptical". Great fun!
(DIR) Post #B1jzL1cSWQKyBAxqeO by zl2tod@mastodon.online
2025-12-29T12:34:21Z
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@futurebird I think this explains it:https://youtu.be/5IsSpAOD6K8?t=61Without study: - a dowsing stick is clearly a vertical force sensor sensitive to movement and changes in gravity;- any claims of magnetic or electrical mechanism are pure woo;- a pair of geophones works better at finding water moving underground.
(DIR) Post #B1k3QmM8aCYSOZKSzw by david_chisnall@infosec.exchange
2025-12-29T13:20:12Z
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@futurebird A lot of things like dowsing work as meditative aids, to help you explore your subconscious. I recall doing a thing where you hold a pendulum above your palm, between the thumb and forefinger of another hand. Then you ask questions and it either swings side to side for yes or in a circle for no. It is one of the easiest forms of self hypnosis: you won’t get any answers to questions you don’t know, but you might get answers you don’t consciously know.
(DIR) Post #B1k3vKDRG2yi63pGOO by Gustodon@mas.to
2025-12-29T13:25:44Z
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@futurebird We are a foolish, primitive species; look at the success of the Kardashians.
(DIR) Post #B1kDWrmALOl0U32rDc by Jorsh@beige.party
2025-12-29T15:13:20Z
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@futurebird About two months ago, I had a customer stroll into our (employees only) back room where I was working, and proceeded to scan the broccoli I was preparing with a crystal. It apparently told her that it was bad because she left without taking any. I also had to tell her 3 times that, no, it isn't organic.
(DIR) Post #B1kDpKsSsr8Px9nYVE by Ehay2k@mastodon.social
2025-12-29T15:16:42Z
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@futurebird I tried dowsing. And I can say that the only thing you will find 100% of the time when dowsing, is a stick.
(DIR) Post #B1kEXUBZdZhJZ0mxmK by Landa@graz.social
2025-12-29T15:24:40Z
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@futurebird I can only assume that police departments love it for the same reason they love lie detectors and other tools that don’t actually work. Firstly, it allows them to „find“ evidence by parallel construction when the original source is inadmissible.Secondly, it allows them to put psychological pressure on suspects.Drag the suspect out to the area where the evidence is probably hidden, have an „expert“ walk around meaningfully and have another policeman observe the reaction of the suspect, giving subtle clues to the expert.
(DIR) Post #B1kGQyOt6KNB9d2Rns by tobinbaker@discuss.systems
2025-12-29T15:45:54Z
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@futurebird @sinvega I had a neighbor show me dowsing and it was maybe the most uncomfortable experience of cognitive dissonance I’ve had. It can’t possibly work but those rods sure seemed to be moving of their own accord. I just filed it away under “can’t explain” and haven’t thought about it since.
(DIR) Post #B1kIZtIRe8sRq6PAOm by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-29T16:09:59Z
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@EricLawton @sinvega This is starting to sound kinda... anty.
(DIR) Post #B1kKMroa2mYfO6Lyfg by graydon@canada.masto.host
2025-12-29T16:29:59Z
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@futurebird People are shockingly good at smelling water consequences. (Petrichor and relatives.)People are shockingly bad at noticing they're smelling these things.It's entirely plausible that some individuals, in appropriate terrain (that is, the water is surface or near-surface in sharply localized ways) can become better aware of their sense of smell via silly rituals with sticks.And then the misidentification of mechanism gets completely out of hand.@sinvega
(DIR) Post #B1kUBbOfkBTCpCVDBw by realtegan@wandering.shop
2025-12-29T18:20:00Z
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@futurebird @sinvega This! This is how I think of it. It's a ritual. It's not going to tell you anything you don't already know, but it might be a fun thing to do just to do.Calling it scientific... gah.
(DIR) Post #B1kUfn1h4ROna29IH2 by sinvega@mas.to
2025-12-29T18:25:29Z
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@futurebird what have i wrought
(DIR) Post #B1kUn4ZeE9XG1wVHJQ by _L1vY_@mstdn.social
2025-12-29T18:26:45Z
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@futurebird Oh lord. My wasband's pompous, credulous Big Real Estate* brother believed in this crap.And you know what? When you live in Michigan, it's pretty hard to NOT strike water wherever you dig. 😂(*Had to short sell or whatever it's called, his massive estate of a house because his eyes were too big for his wallet.)
(DIR) Post #B1kVNpxBY3VNOu2ku8 by petealexharris@mastodon.scot
2025-12-29T18:33:25Z
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@futurebird Mostly it's not my business if someone I know believes some nonsense. I don't see it as my job to make them change their mind, just shrug and say "Nah, that sounds fake. Not convincing at all" and if us having different opinions about it is a problem, it is very much now their problem, not mine.