Post B1YAljk1roqa9KvSDI by juergen_hubert@mementomori.social
(DIR) More posts by juergen_hubert@mementomori.social
(DIR) Post #B1Y5MhvqxPwjWmhalc by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-23T18:45:23Z
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Without looking it up can you remember *why* Mary and Joseph were traveling when she was so pregnant? Why didn't they have a place to stay?If you can't remember or never knew give your best guess. (I'm curious about the stories that live in people's heads as much as the ones that were written down.)
(DIR) Post #B1Y5WnjQFXxePVhVIm by Ailbhe@mendeddrum.org
2025-12-23T18:47:08Z
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@futurebird Incredibly stupid bureaucracy which meant a census had to be taken in people's place of origin, not where they lived. I have never understood it.
(DIR) Post #B1Y5XW3TSM91sRQ8fI by stevegis_ssg@mas.to
2025-12-23T18:47:14Z
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@futurebird The story in my head is that there was a "everybody has to return briefly to their hometown for tax purposes" decree, so the inn was booked up because everyone was traveling.
(DIR) Post #B1Y5YEkDIoTaTjktOK by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-23T18:47:12Z
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I went to church enough that I think this ought to be correct, however, I've been very wrong about these things in the past (with confidence) when working from memory. My understanding was that everyone needed to go home because the Romans were doing a census so they could count all the people and collect taxes, so they were trying to get home in time but didn't quite make it.
(DIR) Post #B1Y5ZHd244LziHtZiq by EvilCartyen@mstdn.dk
2025-12-23T18:47:29Z
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@futurebird sure they were going to Bethlehem for a census, right? Because Joseph's family were from Bethlehem.
(DIR) Post #B1Y5ZxoVDoU6Y1aKQq by Lazarou@mastodon.social
2025-12-23T18:47:30Z
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@futurebird some kind of poll tax that meant everyone had to be in their birthplace to be counted if I recall things told me 40 years ago correctly
(DIR) Post #B1Y5e37jQ9C6AvWl1s by MCDuncanLab@mstdn.social
2025-12-23T18:48:29Z
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@futurebird They had to go for the census.
(DIR) Post #B1Y5f19aEOKIM2r5FI by darkling@mstdn.social
2025-12-23T18:48:40Z
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@futurebird It was a census run by the occupying Romans, I think. Everyone had to travel back to their home (birth?) town to be counted.
(DIR) Post #B1Y5lIEfdKX54TE8gK by cford@toot.thoughtworks.com
2025-12-23T18:49:40Z
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@futurebird A supposed census where Joseph had to go to his ancestral town, designed to retcon Jesus into being born in the right place. I guess that goes along with high inn occupancy.
(DIR) Post #B1Y5lP6m55NMO0aQqW by jmax@mastodon.social
2025-12-23T18:49:41Z
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@futurebird Census.
(DIR) Post #B1Y5nflj6nJqdYp77A by adriano@lile.cl
2025-12-23T18:50:14Z
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@futurebird to be censed by the Romans, and the town was full because of Roman census
(DIR) Post #B1Y61imugEnk3T4rOC by hakona@im.alstadheim.no
2025-12-23T18:52:32Z
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@futurebird Det var i de dage da det utgikk et bud fra Keiser Augustus om at allverden skulle innskrives i mantall. (after that I'm a bit fuzzy, but somehow Mary and Josef had to got to Bethlehem to be recorded by census-takers).Been atheist all my life, if that is relevant to your survey :) .
(DIR) Post #B1Y63i0eXrsODhS4Nk by AbyssalRook@mstdn.social
2025-12-23T18:53:04Z
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@futurebird As I recall, they weren't traveling home: it wasn't just a census, it was a census that required people to go back to their place of birth. Not where they currently lived, where they were born.
(DIR) Post #B1Y667eACJ0wJO5E9Y by MCDuncanLab@mstdn.social
2025-12-23T18:53:33Z
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@futurebird Bethlehem was Joseph's ancestral homeland. It's just that all of the inns were full, so they had to sleep in the manger. So I'd say that they got there in time.
(DIR) Post #B1Y67ZU0BmMWvw1NoG by clarablackink@writing.exchange
2025-12-23T18:53:48Z
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@futurebird They had to travel for a census and I think they went to where Joseph was born. I'm not sure we know where Mary was from? Everywhere was full because sure, I guess it was an area without sufficent jobs or housing so lots of folks left but had to return to be counted.I'm not sure if I'm missing anything.
(DIR) Post #B1Y69JXyPRi85Wi4zg by peachfront@toot.community
2025-12-23T18:54:05Z
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@futurebird jeez it's been a long time but i think...there was a census + head tax and for some reason they had to appear in person for it in their city of birth so traveled back to Bethlehem?
(DIR) Post #B1Y6FY75AJ9J0C6ZJA by realtegan@wandering.shop
2025-12-23T18:55:13Z
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@futurebird Off the top of my head - they were headed to Joe's hometown for a census, and when they got to his family home it was already crowded (it wasn't an inn) and so they were housed with the animals (which wasn't nearly as bad as it sounds).
(DIR) Post #B1Y6MXN0KKAMixstk0 by RobotDiver@starlite.rodeo
2025-12-23T18:56:30Z
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@futurebird ADHD and a complete lack of executive functioning? Speaking from experiencing my own parents...
(DIR) Post #B1Y6O4gnvpS4LssYIC by jollyorc@social.5f9.de
2025-12-23T18:56:48Z
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@futurebird that's the story I got taught too. With the slight wrinkle that they weren't going "home" home, but to the place of their birth, and the census didn't really asked if folks are good to travel...
(DIR) Post #B1Y6SRBIFYGlGdDiIi by clew@ecoevo.social
2025-12-23T18:57:36Z
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I remember it was the census, everyone was supposed to go back to their official town — lots of parallels in history — and I kind of assumed that meant everyone was traveling and all the inns were full.@futurebird
(DIR) Post #B1Y6VYcb2jmpDCTk9Y by lffontenelle@mastodon.social
2025-12-23T18:58:02Z
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@futurebird IIRC they had to go to Bethlehem to be counted I'm a census because they were originally from there. Also, I've read somewhere this part of the story resonates another story about an earlier prophet, just like the part with a precursor of Pontius Pilate ordering the murder of all first-borns is to align the story of Jesus with the one of Moses.
(DIR) Post #B1Y6ZrvdCaewFYRDOK by albnelson@beige.party
2025-12-23T18:58:55Z
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@futurebird I am definitely curious about why the gospel writers told this story, since as far as we know nothing like this ever happened. The book I recently read by Elaine Pagels argued that most of the biographical details in the Gospels are there either to retroactively fulfill prophecies or to defend Jesus against various kinds of slander (i.e. that his father was a Roman soldier, which it seems several texts allege)
(DIR) Post #B1Y6tEfsrCfyIVJ65Q by anantagd@ieji.de
2025-12-23T19:02:10Z
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@futurebird My family' s understanding was that the "Quirinus census" became necessary in Luke' s gospel so that Rabbi J could be born in Bethlehem, and fulfill Psalm 87 . And it dates his birth. But he connects it to Herod the Great, in error. BTW, Galilee, a somewhat autonomous region, was in revolt against the census and its subsequent taxation. Nazareth, in Galilee, was Joseph' s and Miriam' s "own" city, so they should have been counted there.
(DIR) Post #B1Y6uDdWCc1rMpfZMu by DanielRThomas@social.coop
2025-12-23T19:02:36Z
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@futurebird My understanding of the text as explained by our pastor last year is that there is an unnecessary focus on the lack of a guest room. The most likely place they were staying is with relatives, but in a standard one up one down home the relatives would have already filled the "up" room and so the "down" room, shared with the animals, would have been the only available place. So the equivalent of sleeping on relatives' sofas, except smellier and less comfortable.
(DIR) Post #B1Y6zpJhXEx7g94enI by jdp23@neuromatch.social
2025-12-23T19:03:38Z
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@futurebird I'm Jewish so my guess is that Joseph's mother guilt-tripped them into spending the holidays with their family, and the census story is just a later embellishment.
(DIR) Post #B1Y71MnmWWSfowsWMy by pms@cupoftea.social
2025-12-23T19:03:53Z
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@futurebird funny thing. The taxes bit are not in the Bible verse I recall just the census and Bethlehem and all the ones that have David as ancestor going there. Historically the census was obviously for calculating taxes I just don’t remember that as part of the gospel.
(DIR) Post #B1Y7CfQdbtTEmARR7Q by infernusgoatus@kvlt.zone
2025-12-23T19:05:38Z
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@futurebird wasn't it something about having to pay their taxes?
(DIR) Post #B1Y7KWUMjSorMkvn2e by davidnjoku@mastodon.world
2025-12-23T19:07:22Z
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@futurebird They needed to return to Joseph's home village for the census.And that's why all the inns were full, because everyone else was home too.
(DIR) Post #B1Y7QnhxclpaVZHdjs by picard@mas.to
2025-12-23T19:08:30Z
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@futurebird census
(DIR) Post #B1Y7m04OrGXIvft78y by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-23T19:12:20Z
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@neia I'm confused about no one wanting to bring a pregnant woman inside if she's about to pop off.
(DIR) Post #B1YAHjJ6uu8S7E1h1U by gneilyo@mastodon.online
2025-12-23T19:40:27Z
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@futurebird Joseph burned down their house during a messiah-reveal party mishap involving a Greek fire recipe he got from a travelling scroll salesman
(DIR) Post #B1YAljk1roqa9KvSDI by juergen_hubert@mementomori.social
2025-12-23T19:45:48Z
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@futurebird They were required to return to Bethlehem for a Roman census, but found no place to stay.
(DIR) Post #B1YBWfaP8MDesAnrDk by graydon@canada.masto.host
2025-12-23T19:47:09Z
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@Ailbhe IIRC, the people writing the gospels were trying to reconcile a prophecy that the messiah would be born in Bethlehem with another prophecy that he would be from Nazareth.The solution was to use vaguely gestured at Roman census machinery to compel Joseph and Mary to travel to Bethlehem, have them flee to Egypt due to Herod's widespread infanticide, and return later to settle in Nazareth.@futurebird
(DIR) Post #B1YBWgzFvRgzDXRDay by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-23T19:54:23Z
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@graydon @Ailbhe "... trying to reconcile a prophecy that the messiah would be born in Bethlehem with another prophecy that he would be from Nazareth."I have heard this too. But when I've tried to find out more there are so many People With Agendas in the mix I kind of give up trying to learn anything of consequence. So, I focus more on what people remember about the story. Because I think we latch on to things that make sense, that keep such stories alive.
(DIR) Post #B1YBbji3EMuR6onOjY by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-23T19:55:19Z
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@gneilyo At last a sensible answer.
(DIR) Post #B1YCOXfslVAdyN3OT2 by EvilCartyen@mstdn.dk
2025-12-23T19:11:54Z
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@pms @futurebird the romans had a general census in the entire realm every five years, though sometimes it was delayed for a year due to e.g. revolts or other events. These were tax censuses, and in some regions they counted members of tribes like in Judea, which meant that members of a tribe had to go to where the tribal center was to be counted.There were other more local censuses as well, but it's like there was a census around 2 or 1 BC.
(DIR) Post #B1YCOYp8UaAPXMOIWu by pms@cupoftea.social
2025-12-23T19:44:23Z
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@EvilCartyen @futurebird jep the tax thing was something I learned as an adult and not part of my childhood Christmas and I don’t remember it being discussed. It is often mentioned in this thread though I wonder if it is a cultural thing.
(DIR) Post #B1YCOa7xe4ora2CqVk by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-23T20:04:05Z
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@pms @EvilCartyen Is it more of a US thing I wonder? It always felt like a "joke for the grown ups" that now, being grown up I still don't really get.
(DIR) Post #B1YE5wrX5oTMUvlTPc by richardjh@phpc.social
2025-12-23T20:23:10Z
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@futurebird Joseph got Mary a donkey ride trip for an early Xmas present. Despite being pregnant and there not being any Christmases yet, she really wanted to go on a donkey ride, so off they went.
(DIR) Post #B1YEW0sSmtPqTmd2Dg by Vive_Levant@masto.bike
2025-12-23T20:27:32Z
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@futurebird they were required to move from the southern Gaza Strip by Tel-Aviv government.
(DIR) Post #B1YFWYe1LI6R9zhG6q by aSweetGentleman@mstdn.social
2025-12-23T20:39:11Z
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@futurebird I was actually asking myself the same question not long ago.And didn't bother look the answer up.So my guess would be a king/governor/ruler of some kind kicking people out?Mind you, "exile" is kind of the number 1 reason for Biblical characters to move around so I'm not taking much risk here.
(DIR) Post #B1YI4SG5n80d6nnO0O by epicdemiologist@wandering.shop
2025-12-23T21:07:43Z
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@futurebird Because everyone was supposed to return to their birthplace to be taxed.
(DIR) Post #B1YLk5vtUK8ztKtY2K by andrewf@glasgow.social
2025-12-23T21:48:50Z
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@futurebird Yes, they had to go back to the place of their birth and that was Bethlehem. (I’m guessing the place of JOSEPH’s birth, on the basis that he was the big important man. More fool the Romans.)
(DIR) Post #B1YMjCvC7PwTEOhzUW by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-23T21:59:56Z
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@neia It sounds like most of the annoying Christians I know more than anything if it was really how it went down. Some people say that is a layer added to the story later though.
(DIR) Post #B1YXcYHxNQAIy8Ntce by glasspusher@beige.party
2025-12-24T00:01:55Z
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@futurebird census
(DIR) Post #B1YXdZCpS4Us6TTBsO by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-24T00:02:08Z
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@Virginicus That's how a lot of traditional "miracle plays" start.
(DIR) Post #B1ZKUdHZoyxNtW3mjI by Landa@graz.social
2025-12-24T09:09:32Z
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@futurebird the Romans decided to take a census, but I forgot if that was a regular thing or because there was a new Emperor.Everyone had to go to their birthplace (in that case Joseph‘s), which never made a lot of sense to me because weren‘t people taxed where they live?Apparently Joseph didn’t have any relatives left there, or at least none that would give them shelter.IIRC from Catholic religious education, that Jesus‘ family is from Bethlehem is important because it embeds his birth in some old-testament prophecies and connects him to the line of King David?