Post B1R2lTfHDGCK54asNM by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
(DIR) More posts by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
(DIR) Post #B1R2lSIuGwi3rP7Urw by daniel@gultsch.social
2025-12-20T09:03:47Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
As a community, we often ask ourselves how to attract more users to #XMPP. Yet the real tragedy is that people would rather build something entirely new (loosely based on email or #ActivityPub) than consider XMPP. Need end-to-end encryption by default? If compatibility with existing XMPP clients is a secondary concern, you can implement it in your own solution while still benefiting from our two decades of experience in instant messaging.
(DIR) Post #B1R2lTfHDGCK54asNM by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2025-12-20T09:13:16Z
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@danielI'm guessing there are complex problems in IM space that they don't realize they'll have to solve from scratch, which XMPP already solved for them.What are these problems?
(DIR) Post #B1R3M4XbaLGGsLSHw0 by daniel@gultsch.social
2025-12-20T09:19:54Z
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@wolf480pl yes I think that is a huge part of the problem. It is very easy to completely underestimate the complexity of Instant Messaging. Sending a message from A to B seems like something every software developer can write before lunch and people don’t see how it can and will rapidly escalate from there.But I don’t know how do communicate that to other people.
(DIR) Post #B1R3S5St3y7LTj7Hrk by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2025-12-20T09:21:01Z
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@danielwrite horror stories :P
(DIR) Post #B1R4BCaNR12Mav8GMS by daniel@gultsch.social
2025-12-20T09:15:03Z
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I consider this a failure on our part but I don’t really know what to do about it. Most arguments against #XMPP don’t hold if you’re building from scratch anyway:• #Conversations_im looks very outdated: OK, but you are developing your own clients anyway.• XMPP doesn’t have an SDK: Neither does your #ActivityPub or email stack• OMEMO is insecure and I would prefer #MLS: Yes, let’s work on that together and you’ll still benefit from XMPP’s 100+ solved IM problems.
(DIR) Post #B1R4BE3pwyCFAZvIv2 by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2025-12-20T09:29:09Z
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@danielalso:- "when I tried to use it 5 years ago, messages were getting lost"
(DIR) Post #B1R4Qyf8y5xc2ussZU by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2025-12-20T09:32:01Z
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@daniellike, I think if you wrote blogposts like"here's a problem you encounter in IM, here are naive solutions that don't work, here's how we managed to silver it in XMPP"Then it could help.And even if it didn't, it'd be fun to read.
(DIR) Post #B1R8ZHW39hqAeTqV7Y by badrihippo@fosstodon.org
2025-12-20T10:18:18Z
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@wolf480pl @daniel seconded. I would read that! 😁
(DIR) Post #B1T6drmihtFlAjNOpk by ge0rg@chaos.social
2025-12-21T09:06:07Z
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@wolf480plExcept it's "when I tried to use it 15 years ago, messages were getting lost" @daniel
(DIR) Post #B1T9cqT6PpEwf7PB3I by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2025-12-21T09:39:36Z
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@ge0rg @daniel I lost some messages in 2018, so 7 years ago. Not exactly 5, but definitely not 15.
(DIR) Post #B1TAgVclxGtN80Esoy by ge0rg@chaos.social
2025-12-21T09:51:27Z
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@wolf480plIf I had a penny for every time somebody projected their experience with Pidgin v0.something from 2004 to modern #XMPP, that would cover the operating costs of @yaximThat said, the last time I lost messages was on Friday, when a Very Bored Person sent some 190k messages my way, which were properly stored in MAM and slightly overwhelmed my own dated clients...
(DIR) Post #B1TB52RhZqmvs7l1EW by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2025-12-21T09:55:55Z
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@ge0rg and I may've been using an outdated client, or the person running the server I was using may've been using outdated Prosody.I still use XMPP today, but the friend whose messages were lost doesn't. And I don't think I'd be able to convince him to try XMPP again.
(DIR) Post #B1TKlLNgSxS8Lf7qlM by debacle@framapiaf.org
2025-12-21T11:44:21Z
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@wolf480pl @ge0rg @daniel For me it was an issue when I started using #Jabber, i.e. ≈ 2014. But then all developers fixed their Stream Management counting bugs and we've lived happily ever since.
(DIR) Post #B1XqKwqn1PZDu92L1k by tris@chaos.social
2025-12-23T09:38:23Z
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@daniel Someone have to solve https://soatok.blog/2024/08/04/against-xmppomemo/ issues first
(DIR) Post #B1XqKxYkNyjG6TbRXk by daniel@gultsch.social
2025-12-23T10:14:35Z
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@tris two things: I already said in my follow up post that if someone wants to build their own clients on top of XMPP and prefers MLS over OMEMO, the XMPP community is very open to that. A protocol is much more than just the encryption. They would still benefit from all the other things XMPP has solved.A lot of what's in that blog post is ill-informed and bordering on disinformation and fear mongering.
(DIR) Post #B1XqKxmDZtVKmFuCXY by tris@chaos.social
2025-12-23T10:33:43Z
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@daniel Ah, fair, their work for E2EE Fedi looks interesting: https://github.com/fedi-e2ee/public-key-directory-specification
(DIR) Post #B1XqKy2sZwpdbvhVVg by daniel@gultsch.social
2025-12-23T10:46:49Z
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@tris there are three actively developed protocols for federated instant messaging (XMPP, Matrix, Deltachat). At least one of them is very open to new developers and new ideas and has a structure in place to collaboratively work on those ideas and bring various stake holders together. With no disrespect to that individual I don't see why there needs to be a forth protocol loosely based on ActivityPub.
(DIR) Post #B1XqKyKbW30gUtzf8a by pixelschubsi@troet.cafe
2025-12-23T11:03:54Z
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@daniel @tris I'm also genuinely surprised that people believe that ActivityPub, a protocol even named after its purpose, to publish activities, is a good protocol to pursue private instant messaging. The goals of those two couldn't be more detrimental.I do see a purpose of being able to reuse your "ActivityPub identities", which actually are just WebFinger identities. Maybe someone should specify how to discover XMPP accounts via WebFinger and push that as a solution for AP messaging?
(DIR) Post #B1XqKydOOC2TRAmfQG by daniel@gultsch.social
2025-12-23T11:07:46Z
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@pixelschubsi @tris Yes, agreed. Tremendous value in reusing identities and login credentials. Big skepticism with regards to using AP as a protocol. One can probably kinda make it work… But why? What’s the benefit?
(DIR) Post #B1XqL524bLLXHSNSj2 by daniel@gultsch.social
2025-12-23T10:54:59Z
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@tris Soatak is an expert in cryptography. I’m not. I’m more than happy to stand on the shoulder of giants when it comes to E2EE. That’s why we used the Signal Protocol 10+ years ago for #OMEMO and are now looking towards #MLS. However, good, interoperable protocol design is so much more than just E2EE. And maybe I've learned a thing or two about protocol design in my career that they don’t necessarily know.
(DIR) Post #B1ryOYtSihdvYZif8S by lazarus@fosstodon.org
2025-12-20T11:37:22Z
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@daniel The big plus of #DeltaChat is that the infrastructure is already there. Infrastructure is a big part of the problem. And obviously using mail for that is only for people born before 2000.Second is branding: When people hear #XMPP they hear 20 years of failure of implementing robust solutions both server-side and client-side. People just don't know that after 20 years there now are server and client solutions really working.
(DIR) Post #B1ryOZrN7xZ6YNkVW4 by delta@chaos.social
2025-12-20T13:43:29Z
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@lazarus @daniel #XMPP is still a thriving ecosystem with lots of good FOSS developers doing interesting things.XMPP is also used under the hood in tons of products needing instant messaging even if they are not advertised as XMPP clients, or do not federate. Anyway, XMPP and #matrix all share a strong focus on protocols, but there is a big difference: https://chatmail.at does not expose protocols to client developers, just a Rust SDK.
(DIR) Post #B1ryOaiXwG6FDIcyOm by matrix@mastodon.matrix.org
2025-12-23T02:12:52Z
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@delta @lazarus @daniel where is this "only 25% of matrix servers federate" stat from? it's pretty hard to tell what servers exist that don't federate(!)
(DIR) Post #B1ryOeXLjpWJ3jQ5VA by lazarus@fosstodon.org
2025-12-20T11:40:34Z
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@daniel Best would have been to have the infrastructure of Google and 1&1 from some years ago and the working state of XMPP of today. Since that sweet spot wasn't hit, I'd recommend rebranding (never call a service XMPP or Jabber again, the protocol name isn't anything users want to know) and ways to provide certified infrastructure very conveniently. Don't know how though, currently. I'm a #Yunohost self hoster.
(DIR) Post #B1ryOkFqTp5EnBHC3E by lazarus@fosstodon.org
2025-12-20T11:52:35Z
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@daniel In case you're going to create a new brand, make a certification for iOS clients as well. As long as you haven't got a working iOS solution, it will be considered broken. Haven't tested #Monal completely these days, but I think it's already looking good.