Post B0oM2PCfNHA78BYlvM by outer@mas.to
(DIR) More posts by outer@mas.to
(DIR) Post #B0ns3UAtNZQYDLKSX2 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-01T11:39:32Z
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When "google" became a verb the company celebrated it as a symbol of their market dominance. I think even those of us who are skeptical about LLMs need to recognize that the general public is increasingly turning to LLMs in the same way they turned to search. "I'll ask chat GPT" is something I hear often. I wince every single time I hear it. 1/(This is a discussion of how people relate to technology *not* a request for software recommendations or technical solutions.)
(DIR) Post #B0nsTrrHwhpRCIju6q by RogerBW@discordian.social
2025-12-01T11:44:16Z
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@futurebird I have a biased sample, of course, but I'm much more likely to hear "that's AI" or "that's ChatGPT" as a synonym for "that's obviously nonsense".
(DIR) Post #B0ntkWYoU5sW1IbVuS by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-01T11:58:30Z
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"Let me google that for you.""RTFM"I've always disliked the hostility of some online communities to repetitive or "basic" questions. It's one of the reasons I don't participate much on "Stack Overflow" where the ethos of hating questions goes deep and interest in enthusiastically sharing and helping people to learn is nearly nonexistent. It's so extreme that the place simply isn't very active.Is it so shocking people are turning to LLMs for their "stupid questions?"2/
(DIR) Post #B0ntvq4cHAq7ivsJIu by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-01T12:00:33Z
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As a teacher I do not say the line "there are no stupid questions" in part because I try to avoid using the word "stupid" but also because it's a lie and everyone knows it. Some questions are better than others. But here is something I didn't understand until far too late in life:People ask questions for reasons OTHER than simply obtaining information. A question can be a way to start a conversation. A way to try to find out if you are alone in your confusion. 3/
(DIR) Post #B0nu5KiJj1yZMKyJou by adriano@lile.cl
2025-12-01T12:02:15Z
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@futurebird Wow, has SO fallen so hard? I was there from the start until a few years ago and it used to at least *try* to fight that. I guess people moved to Reddit...
(DIR) Post #B0nu850GapLRVEg3Oq by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-01T12:02:47Z
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To make this post in our rather tech-leaning community I know I need to included clarification that I do not want technical solutions. Otherwise I will have a dozen people telling me about kagi, or some other work-around that makes search a little better *for them* ... we won't get to the bottom of why millions of people are "asking chat GPT" if they should wear a coat or not. And I have had moments where I've been the one saying "RTFM!" I'm not innocent here. 4/4
(DIR) Post #B0nuKG4HHSA3IJMPyK by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-01T12:04:58Z
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@adriano Reddit is very unpleasant to use if you don't want to learn the rules for a community and spend a lot of time there. If you just want to ask a question you will get "let me google this for you" type responses. And this is fine in a way. The purpose of reddit is for more focused discussion. But, where do people go to talk and ask questions without doing a research project first?I think facebook and twitter had this role, but now LLMs are taking over.
(DIR) Post #B0nuNAllR9tnjJ5gkC by Lyle@cville.online
2025-12-01T12:05:25Z
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@futurebird RIP Swackett. I just want to know if I should wear a coat today. https://lifehacker.com/swackett-is-a-weather-app-that-tells-you-what-to-wear-5861147
(DIR) Post #B0nuVr4q1QpJGG9WAS by EvilCartyen@mstdn.dk
2025-12-01T12:07:01Z
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@futurebird > People ask questions for reasons OTHER than simply obtaining information. A question can be a way to start a conversation. A way to try to find out if you are alone in your confusion. I feel like this part is obvious to most people, just not most techies - unfortunately.
(DIR) Post #B0nualRMPHTRE91nTk by snowgaze@masto.pt
2025-12-01T12:07:55Z
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@futurebird Thanks for the interesting reflection. It makes me think about other people using chat GPT in a different, kinder, way.
(DIR) Post #B0nubjggPRNi52esgy by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-01T12:08:08Z
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Sometimes people ask questions because they just want to talk to someone. I want to suggest that this is important and something we should make space for. I think that's also why there is a lot of nostalgia and love for "shitposting" ... it's just pure human interaction without a lot of judgement. And it would be horrible if we let the LLMs take it from us, right?Right?
(DIR) Post #B0nuhen5WnZOdBTg80 by hazelnot@sunbeam.city
2025-12-01T12:09:09Z
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@futurebird @adriano I go Reddit -> fedi with stuff like this at this pointIf Reddit isn't helpful (it usually isn't) I ask here and I tend to get decent answers, at least for tech related stuff
(DIR) Post #B0nuiIkexFOWZEeItc by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-01T12:09:16Z
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@snowgaze The people I'm hearing this from are good people. Just not "computer people" ...
(DIR) Post #B0numgYgNpQpYr8ZzU by ultrazool@mastodon.scot
2025-12-01T12:10:05Z
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@futurebird very this; i ask questions to send a signal to others that it's ok to ask their own, and ask questions when suspect i know the answer but would like other people to hear the explanations. There's a reputational cost to putting one's ignorance publically on display that way, but i'm short on currency anyway, so why not
(DIR) Post #B0nvDISM6Olud2rpCq by florine@mastodon.green
2025-12-01T12:14:51Z
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@futurebird yes!! What great points
(DIR) Post #B0nvKbKCLePZAvXCsq by jollyorc@social.5f9.de
2025-12-01T12:16:11Z
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@futurebird I am really on the fence on this. On the one hand, I did teach IT stuff a while, and I really think that during that learning experience, no question should be disqualified.And yes, even outside the teaching context, asking "basic" questions should be fine.But, and here's the fence I'm sitting on.....I have had people who refused to learn, but instead tried to use me as their (unpaid) information butler. So instead of using the manual I provided to them, or looking up the question on any search machine, they thought it'd be easier to ask me.I was still happy to help when they said "I tried searching for XYZ, but found nothing helpful". But when their first instinct face with something was to always send me an email or, worse, call me on the phone, then I got a tad bit hostile and sent them lmgify links.
(DIR) Post #B0nvT0I5PRI6vFYNQO by dtwx@mastodon.social
2025-12-01T12:17:42Z
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@futurebird I think my least favourite response to any tech question is "Why do you want to do that when you could do this?" but not in "Actually, that's an outmoded way of doing. It's much simpler to use THIS to do THIS instead." I love those people.
(DIR) Post #B0nvW2BWp5kffLvnIu by TimWardCam@c.im
2025-12-01T12:18:15Z
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@futurebird The nearest I'm usually likely to get to "RTFM" is "oh, sorry, I thought I'd documented that adequately, which bit is unclear that I need to work on?"
(DIR) Post #B0nvXTPn4H2gPMHwOG by Extra_Special_Carbon@mastodon.world
2025-12-01T12:18:31Z
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@futurebird Yeah, Stack Exchange is pretty useless to the point that I scroll past those search results. Everyone that learns a new language has to ask the basic stuff, and you’ll never find it there.
(DIR) Post #B0nvymetd24nuTNPU0 by gbargoud@masto.nyc
2025-12-01T12:23:27Z
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@futurebird A lot of the times asking questions for me is a way of finding the right vocabulary to look up answers to more questions later.I guess being exposed to specialized words that are related to what you want to know about is actually a good use case for an LLM as a tool since it's all about the relationship between words in specific contexts but the way they are pushed makes me not even want to use them for things they are good for.
(DIR) Post #B0nwsZJCRyzyiqpQOW by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-01T12:33:34Z
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@Extra_Special_Carbon I remember having an argument on the backend of the math stack exchange about the policy of basically demoting and rejecting "basic math" questions. The people against such questions said they didn't like being asked for "homework help" we were supposed to be having a higher level of mathematics conversation. This meant that only graduate students with too much free time could find any use in the site. Also if a question "had already been answered" that was that.
(DIR) Post #B0nx4j8zhyqghXqvAW by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-01T12:35:46Z
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@Extra_Special_Carbon But, if a person is still asking a question even though the answer is right there... maybe it's not a very helpful or good answer. Maybe it could be possible to answer a "basic" question in a new or better way. Obviously, as a teacher this interests me more than it might interest other people. And it is possible for a question to be "low effort" but this wasn't the issue. I really wondered what they wanted from the site at all.
(DIR) Post #B0nxb1Sj8YBcmUTwsC by geonz@mathstodon.xyz
2025-12-01T12:41:33Z
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@futurebird as a math tutor, it often takes some *serious* courage to ask a question, especially a basic one. I say "I like those questions because I can usually answer them." I also note that "let's start where you are and build!" Now, I also get "learned helpless" questions and then I will demonstrate how they can find the answer. When somebody's asking exactly the smae question, again and again, for 3 semesters because they just want to write an answer down b/c they don't even imagine it making sense... that's a challenge too ;) And that 14th time I'll do my best to build the how and why.
(DIR) Post #B0nxvd336T0n8wIUHQ by geonz@mathstodon.xyz
2025-12-01T12:45:18Z
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@futurebird @Extra_Special_Carbon Oh, I remember figuring out stack exchange was just snarky snobs and yes, I'd search for somebody answering what I asked already but no, I wouldn't ask things: even if it *hadn't* been asked, they'd pretend it was a simpler question and give the same snarky answards to a different question.
(DIR) Post #B0ny0BP7JKDur2n5pQ by Okanogen@mastodon.social
2025-12-01T12:46:05Z
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@futurebird @Extra_Special_Carbon There are still (or always will be) people confused why a number divided by zero isn't zero.
(DIR) Post #B0ny4SazKqB5KbNoci by MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community
2025-12-01T12:46:53Z
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@futurebird @Extra_Special_CarbonYou reminded me of the frustrations any newbie had with Linux in forums. You knew what you wanted to do but didn't have the jargon to go along with it. And a crazy number of forums would have people tell you that the question was answered before. Just look it up.And that's the thing, your first search brought you to this specific forum thread where everyone says look it up!If you persevered comment 87 might have an link that leads to a 404 page.
(DIR) Post #B0nya4CHaF0svYtlEO by KalenXI@mastodon.social
2025-12-01T12:52:36Z
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@futurebird There’s also a weird superiority complex people often have in those sorts of places.When someone says “RTFM” they’re not just saying “That information is there if you search for it.” They’re also saying “I know the answer, but I’d rather take the time I could be using to spread that knowledge and instead use it to make you feel dumb and me feel superior.” It’s more effort to give an unhelpful answer than it is to give no answer at all.
(DIR) Post #B0nyndVrajNqDpWm0m by alec@perkins.pub
2025-12-01T12:54:51Z
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@futurebird meanwhile, the LLM helpfully and eagerly gives useful* information. Why wouldn’t you prefer it over hostility?
(DIR) Post #B0nzcdnaHwMbsS8Zd2 by llewelly@sauropods.win
2025-12-01T13:04:18Z
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@futurebird I had a professor who would routinely say "read the FINE manual" (note emphasis).There was a rumor that he didn't know "fine" was not the customary f-word used in that acronym, but he was always careful to emphasize "fine".
(DIR) Post #B0nzjI35YJZKRqYlzk by sibylle@troet.cafe
2025-12-01T13:05:28Z
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@futurebird To me this question thing is a difficult one. And there are huuuuge cultural differences to it, too.I even got suspended from a really cool and well moderated mastodon server for "just asking questions" on a socially difficult topic.I grew up with "ask if you're not scared of the answer" and changed to "better just leave a star and look if I can find some answers on my own". Some people really seem to abuse questions and others are getting really sensitive about it.
(DIR) Post #B0o0uxpCfcgh9bCBY8 by venya@musicians.today
2025-12-01T13:18:47Z
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@futurebird In my later years in the army during classes or briefings, I almost always asked questions that I knew the answer to (or thought I did) because1. It allowed _the presenter_ to elaborate on something that maybe not everyone knew (supporting _their_ task, not my ego)2. It normalized curiosity and admitting less than perfect knowledge even by senior "experts"3. SOMEONE in the room wanted to know but was afraid to ask the question because we don't do 2 nearly enough
(DIR) Post #B0o3fZVn5EQDGbT2sy by KentNavalesi@mstdn.social
2025-12-01T13:49:34Z
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@futurebird🤦♂️
(DIR) Post #B0o3kaOnDEcBSxaLei by MaierAmsden@mastodon.social
2025-12-01T13:50:29Z
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@futurebird There are stupid questions, but it's still better to ask them and have them answered than leave the ignorance underpinning the stupid question unchecked.
(DIR) Post #B0o4Ok9eMO15J3ePke by franciswashere@arvr.social
2025-12-01T13:57:47Z
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@futurebird "Read The Manual." Oh.
(DIR) Post #B0o7cdXE4JZwgyzjZw by cigitalgem@sigmoid.social
2025-12-01T14:33:55Z
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@futurebird In my view, you are being too hard on #LLMs. I agree that they should not be used for many things without knowing the risks. But I disagree that we should utterly abandon the technology. Know the risks. Be a grownup. Use the tool. Manage the risks. As with ANY new technology, most people will misuse, misunderstand, and be bamboozled by new things they don't understand.
(DIR) Post #B0o8xOZ51QoQIaKAKW by pteryx@dice.camp
2025-12-01T14:48:52Z
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@futurebirdOf course, there's another problem with "RTFM": *What* M? Especially in the Linux community where this problem is most severe, there often isn't sufficient documentation to figure things out on one's own. Alternately, the only "documentation" might be buried in a Discord.
(DIR) Post #B0o9NqFygdzXiG04FE by Enema_Cowboy@dotnet.social
2025-12-01T14:53:38Z
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@futurebird What I've seen is that LLMs are regurgitating Stack Overflow.
(DIR) Post #B0o9S3M1vqulUbq5Pk by Mux@swingset.social
2025-12-01T14:54:24Z
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@futurebirdI have the opposite problem, though it's the other side of the same coin. As a team leader and an expert in my field, it frustrates me to no end that my colleagues are scared of asking 'stupid' questions, even though I implore them to.People who don't ask stupid questions never learn the basics.
(DIR) Post #B0oAVF4OviUyeQg56e by grumpydad@infosec.exchange
2025-12-01T15:06:11Z
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@futurebird There are no stupid questions. But there are a lot of inquisitive idiots 😄
(DIR) Post #B0oCIvuEYU4zeGBFBo by connynasch@mastodon.social
2025-12-01T15:26:18Z
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@futurebird I very much enjoyed reading through the commentary, thank you 😄
(DIR) Post #B0oCg0AeretlXIrYK8 by pteryx@dice.camp
2025-12-01T15:30:34Z
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@futurebird @Extra_Special_CarbonSeems like a problem that, in a saner time, would be solved by just launching your own website dedicated to explaining basic mathematics. Writing "TFM" itself, as it were....Mind you, we're not in a time *so* insane that this is impossible. Neocities exists... Really, the tricky part would be figuring out the best ways (assuredly plural) to explain simple concepts to people who didn't get it in grade school.
(DIR) Post #B0oFnvgFk91lmx73HU by ricosuave@mastodon.online
2025-12-01T16:05:34Z
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@futurebird I can imagine a group, doing or working on something together, and then one of them asks "Why are we doing this?". Which is quickly followed by "Oh, you idiot! Because we have always done this, this is what we do ..." And perhaps then it sinks in that "always doing" something is not necessarily the best rationale. There is "tradition", yes, but there's also repetitive duncery.
(DIR) Post #B0oH8ypVKUsDai2e3s by halapenyoharry@mastodon.social
2025-12-01T16:20:33Z
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@futurebird why are you upset when people are saying they are going to seek more information about something they don't know? am I missing something?
(DIR) Post #B0oH9pWBR3uV08PSnw by Tamtam@mastodon.de
2025-12-01T16:20:37Z
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@futurebird one reason is certainly that google turned to crab, andpeople don't know where to go for information.But also: They probably don't have someone whom they can ask all of these things that go through your head, like whether to wear a coat or a jacket. That everyday chatter.
(DIR) Post #B0oHCfj2IildUxmDGy by pino@social.cologne
2025-12-01T16:21:14Z
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@futurebird Some comments here in the thread sound like "Well, the experts did not do their job to nanny me for free, take care of my mood and implicit intentions of my obviously pointless question, ignore the fact that my invest is zero, ..., ..., and so, our revenge is the usage of LLMs now."There are so many aspects about it that make me laugh or cry or both at the same time.
(DIR) Post #B0oJXv3cgwqf2VfJ4K by quinn@social.circl.lu
2025-12-01T16:47:29Z
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@futurebird we're so isolated these days, and the lack of community makes us vulnerable to so many strange forces. I recently read bowling alone, and it's heart breaking to see how it went so wrong. We are mostly lonely, and loneliness makes people very weird. 💔
(DIR) Post #B0oKDs7nz8f86gcsCG by llewelly@sauropods.win
2025-12-01T16:55:09Z
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@futurebird wasn't there a movie in which darth vader built a robot whose entire job was being polite?
(DIR) Post #B0oKFKfxJrSKwfIPvE by judell@social.coop
2025-12-01T16:55:21Z
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@futurebird I think about this a lot: how "just google it" kills a bid for connection.https://blog.jonudell.net/2019/06/16/dont-just-google-it-first-lets-talk/
(DIR) Post #B0oKy8CaXibVI2vBpY by gneilyo@mastodon.online
2025-12-01T17:03:27Z
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@futurebird One of the worst features is the “AI summary” at the top of search results because it tempts even those who made no effort to consult an LLM into accepting its slop.
(DIR) Post #B0oL67oHsrscOJMmoa by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-01T17:04:57Z
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@geonz @Extra_Special_Carbon * Only interested in "hard" questions.* But, if it's a hard question they can't answer, well then you must have meant something else or asked it wrong. Kind of makes the range of acceptable topics ludicrously narrow. I thought maybe we could just, you know, talk about math.
(DIR) Post #B0oL94D3j7pu5qM8h6 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-12-01T17:05:28Z
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@Okanogen @Extra_Special_Carbon It's a question worth answering in multiple ways.
(DIR) Post #B0oM2PCfNHA78BYlvM by outer@mas.to
2025-12-01T17:15:27Z
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@futurebird Many times the answers are not IN TFM. Also, some search engines encourage using AI. The results are so lame that that doesn't explain using it more than twice...Ying marketing campaigns? Hope springing eternally? Dummies longing to be "in". (Adding it up, I still don't think it's enough.)
(DIR) Post #B0oM61iIePYxRA5CKW by outer@mas.to
2025-12-01T17:16:07Z
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@futurebird Damn right!
(DIR) Post #B0oMW40WkD9a551Xou by geonz@mathstodon.xyz
2025-12-01T17:20:47Z
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@futurebird @Extra_Special_Carbon what, with young male egoes who haven't had practice and constructive building of being emotionally secure? Lord of the Files :P Leaves it to others to create better communities. At LDONLINE.ORG in oh, 1997 there were six or so of us who took turns with the Newby questions on the forum. When we were invaded by followers of THE ONE READING METHOD (the author paid folks to "monitor" the board and respond ...) we would politely reply with other resources, bring up other topics and push the propaganda down.
(DIR) Post #B0oMWyJbOTgaiSNZKK by keithpjolley@discuss.systems
2025-12-01T17:20:54Z
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@futurebird @geonz @Extra_Special_Carbon fit the questions to the answerer rather than the questioner is a terrible model of communication.
(DIR) Post #B0oMqtJdguWz0CtXLU by scott@sfba.social
2025-12-01T17:24:34Z
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@futurebird 1000%!I totally agree AND will add there are so many other reasons we ask questions. Often it’s to connect (and be seen, be validated, and yes to not be alone). Years ago I was obsessed with the odd nature of Yahoo Answers. Like Stack Overflow, it was just people asking questions but obviously for a different audience and not technical questions. I found the structure absurd (in a performance art way, maybe that’s absurd-ist) because the questioner was responsible for rating the answers. The person who, by definition didn’t know the answer, was judging the “validity” of the respondents (who had no greater qualifications or knowledge, necessarily — it’s all randos anyway). I did a whole project about it because the dynamic was so funny/odd/tragic to me:https://scottmurray.org/work/questions-and-answers
(DIR) Post #B0oMuyjFVWLQwtp3tA by mcsquank@mastodon.online
2025-12-01T17:25:17Z
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@futurebird i ran into this infuriating nonsense in perl and linux forums too. and they insist you list out all the steps you had already tried to show "due diligence" before giving you an answer that takes 2 seconds to type out. you don't want to help? great, move on.
(DIR) Post #B0oNSotkZ1L6J0s4X2 by oldclumsy_nowmad@mastodon.social
2025-12-01T17:31:25Z
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@futurebird Thanks for saying "LLMs" , not "AI". Others (like me) shouldn't over-use "AI" , because1. "AI" is a misnomer. It's not an intelligent being we are corresponding with, it's a an algorithm. It's a machine following rules laid down by some invisible person who "ain't payin' no attention" to us.2. "AI" smooshes chatbots and LLM's together with other forms of machine learning. Other ML, but not LLMs, can be good for stuff like training robots for surgery or combat.
(DIR) Post #B0oOqFtuR1qqfQgUgi by shansterable@ohai.social
2025-12-01T17:46:50Z
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@futurebird RTFM = Read the fucking manual, in case that helps anyone besides me. I try to do for initialisms and acronyms what alt text does for images.
(DIR) Post #B0oSnvGuYtFDvPaQdM by paul_ipv6@infosec.exchange
2025-12-01T18:31:16Z
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@futurebird yeah. i used to go with "there are no useless/pointless questions", which is less judgemental than "stupid questions".admittedly, sometimes the utility is showing that the student hasn't done their study/homework yet, but i'm more inclined to allow any questions than shut down curiousity.i do like your point about sometimes it being an opening move to a conversation or engagement.
(DIR) Post #B0oTYaqOKTayBDR75M by sloanlance@mastodon.social
2025-12-01T18:39:39Z
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@futurebird Interesting perspective on #StackOverflow. I've used it for many years and it's true, there are a lot of hostile responses. However, I've seen many responses that are very gracious, detailed, and genuine attempts to help others learn. (I aspire to that when I write responses there.)Despite the hostile responses, it appears to me that SO and its users are overwhelmingly helpful. I'll look more carefully next time I use it, to see whether I can see there what you do.
(DIR) Post #B0oTzYSRJFuQb75asq by sloanlance@mastodon.social
2025-12-01T18:44:34Z
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@futurebird Honest admission: I don't know the definition of "#shitposting". I thought I did, but then I saw some people who label themselves "shitposters". Those people were not posting what I considered to be "shitposts", so I guess I really don't know what it means.
(DIR) Post #B0oUtCWI3qv2m7QNrk by purrperl@noc.social
2025-12-01T18:54:35Z
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@futurebird People ask questions to figure out if they are alone in their confusion ( existential or scientific ). However, education is so badly implemented, that the masses are scientifically illiterate. In the absence of free education, a college degree is too expensive. People do a crass cost/benefit, ROI analysis on going to college, which is reduced to a means to make ends meet, rather than feed the head & elevate oneself.1/n
(DIR) Post #B0pQJe2S43eL2VDYrQ by j2bryson@mastodon.social
2025-12-02T05:38:03Z
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@futurebird I keynoted at a spoken language systems meeting in about 2017, and the scientists were trying to make it faster to use those voice menus, then being mystified that some people talked way longer than necessary. I immediately said "sounds like they are bond testing." In a human, we all have about the same amount of time, so how much someone will spend with you is an honest signal of how much they value you (though maybe not of why they do). In AI companies sell time, so signal fails.
(DIR) Post #B0q0SKBipm5QQjzZWC by Extra_Special_Carbon@mastodon.world
2025-12-02T12:22:59Z
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@futurebird Yeah, a lot of answers are “just so”, but I don’t like just copying code without understanding. For example, the print command in Fortran is “print *, ‘text’”. What is that asterisk? Do I ever need anything else? I know I do because I’ve seen that code, but when and why? It must tell the compiler something, but what?
(DIR) Post #B0qR1NsPi3N0oWL4xE by SKleefeld@retro.pizza
2025-12-02T17:20:41Z
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@futurebird This is a fantastic insight, certainly not something I'd considered before!