Post B0hRHbfISngLmxIeCO by daniel_gonzalez@neopaquita.es
(DIR) More posts by daniel_gonzalez@neopaquita.es
(DIR) Post #B0fMnxjR4E55PIvPJA by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-27T09:11:02Z
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I'm testing a spare 3.5" floppy drive, and it's got a really weird error pattern: it has problems with track 3 and 60-69. I can read and write and I'll only have errors on those tracks.
(DIR) Post #B0fN5bkfWl6SRvuq7E by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-27T09:14:19Z
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uh oh, it's not seeking accurately. it shouldn't hit the track 0 sensor when seeking to track 1
(DIR) Post #B0fNPu8wrE0RHWwzc8 by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-27T09:17:57Z
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I think the problem might have been my USB cable
(DIR) Post #B0fNcdVa17v3SCbhvk by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-27T09:20:22Z
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NOPE! this drive is messed up.
(DIR) Post #B0gGztnF8CvK6FyT7A by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-27T19:40:50Z
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@domi yeah it's definitely a stepper problem of some sort
(DIR) Post #B0gHHa0xPJ7LyAotea by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-27T19:44:03Z
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I'm gonna swap it for one of my other floppy drives, because I'm not exactly short on the fuckers.but next time I fiddle with this one, I'm gonna clean and re-lubricate the stepper motor shaft. That might fix it
(DIR) Post #B0gHKVyQt3EuJ32RzE by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-27T19:44:37Z
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right now I'm too bedridden to really fuck with lubricating electronics, not when I have endless other 3.5" floppy drives
(DIR) Post #B0gMQ0kGPFi2xdqq9I by vxo@digipres.club
2025-11-27T19:01:19Z
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@domi @foone yeah I'm wondering if there's a dollop of dried grease right on the leadscrew at those tracks in particular
(DIR) Post #B0gMQ1x3v9XchcqZjk by vxo@digipres.club
2025-11-27T19:02:15Z
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@domi @foone old Sony Grease aka PETRO-CONCRETE
(DIR) Post #B0gMQ2ucLjBDgKi8Z6 by vxo@digipres.club
2025-11-27T19:06:30Z
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@domi @foone ok to be fair I think the old Sony Grease is some kind of lithium soap grease product, but I'll admit to not knowing exactly what the base to that stuff isApparently it's castor oil that's been thickened (saponified?) with lithium hydroxide. I guess that'd explain why it eventually solidifies - the oil polymerizes or hydrates or... something. Weird stuff, and that's even before one ponders what kind of oil is being retained by that soap and under what conditions it separates.
(DIR) Post #B0gMQ3lnA1iMLFabRo by vxo@digipres.club
2025-11-27T19:07:32Z
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@domi @foone In the case of the grease I always find in old Sony tape mechanisms, the end state is that either the oil has separated and dropped out of the mechanism (ew!!) or is just kinda mysteriously gone without a trace.
(DIR) Post #B0gMQ4dfvgof2MndR2 by vxo@digipres.club
2025-11-27T19:15:55Z
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@domi @foone As weird as it sounds, that's the magic of all lubricating greases - they're a homogenized blend of a lubricating oil and a soap.Exactly what those are though, well, there are a ton of them! I think the Super Lube grease from Synco may be a silicone or polyurea base... whatever it is, I've used it on most things I've cleaned old lithium soap grease out of after it dried out, and it's never failed on me.
(DIR) Post #B0gMQ5Vug2CXkaAwyW by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-27T20:41:26Z
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@vxo @domi "polyurea" just makes me think about a polycule into watersports.(Which is fine, as long as they don't do it on my floppy drives)
(DIR) Post #B0gNdmLuoZhcKaajRY by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-27T20:55:15Z
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@xssfox @vxo @domi yeah. I firmly believe in the kink tomato: YKINMKATOKBDDIOMFDYour Kink Is Not My Kink (And That's OK) But Don't Do It On My Floppy Drives
(DIR) Post #B0gNtcFq7uKVe7IkJE by vxo@digipres.club
2025-11-27T20:58:15Z
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@foone @xssfox @domi welp my composure is now thoroughly bitbucketed
(DIR) Post #B0gOCZexzvar6J5u6a by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-27T21:01:39Z
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@vxo @xssfox @domi sorry!
(DIR) Post #B0gOZBKub8ayK6UgUa by vxo@digipres.club
2025-11-27T21:05:41Z
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@foone @xssfox @domi I mean this in the best way possible of course :D
(DIR) Post #B0gfLjFDQj82ec05Oy by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-28T00:13:46Z
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okay, here's the weird part: I grabbed another floppy drive, yet another TEAC FD-235, and it seems to work just fine, but it shows the same "seeking to track 1 overshoots" problem. Is this a common problem with teacs? are they all like this? or is some other part of my setup fucked?
(DIR) Post #B0gfU3vER1Kt6LcvWy by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-28T00:15:17Z
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I guess I gotta relube all my TEACs
(DIR) Post #B0ggLv2RgE57BdgKqO by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-28T00:24:58Z
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yeah I can't take a good picture of it because angles and lighting but there's a big hardened glob of lube right around where track 0/1 is. I bet this drive has been sitting unused for 3 decades with the head at track 0/1
(DIR) Post #B0ggOpRUwT4ehSmssq by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-28T00:25:24Z
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now to try to clean it up without having to dissemble the whole mechanism, because I do NOT want to have to recalibrate this thing
(DIR) Post #B0ghsFRpQxAHhqXBJY by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-28T00:42:04Z
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cleaned off the old lube. still overshooting. I'm gonna ignore it for now.still can't figure out how to properly get a diskchange signal
(DIR) Post #B0gi9lWfQCJk7L9NdA by munin@infosec.exchange
2025-11-28T00:43:05Z
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@foone ......I have been making pie and have not seen the context for this post.
(DIR) Post #B0gi9mtOLC5aM6n2gq by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-28T00:45:13Z
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@munin oh my
(DIR) Post #B0gifHphM4ZbID5AZs by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-28T00:50:57Z
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I can reliably detect when a disk is ejected, which is not useful for me. But to detect when a disk is inserted, I have to send a STEP, which audibly clicks the motor
(DIR) Post #B0giiQVZYZL94GALmS by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-28T00:51:21Z
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@gloriouscow it's just...very excited
(DIR) Post #B0gj3512ez4AUWjYXY by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-28T00:55:16Z
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"However, the indicator keeps off until 3.1ms has passed after the DRIVE SELECTion to avoid the pollingoperation of the DRIVE SELECT signa"this suggests they expect you to be polling the floppy for something. but what if not disk change events? I guess ejections? like the disk is in, but not currently active?
(DIR) Post #B0gjAppJ18TphPwTWi by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-28T00:56:04Z
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PCs use the disk change event to invalidate disk caches, so that half of it working properly is vital.but since PCs don't do insertion detection, who cares if it works?
(DIR) Post #B0gjAqcw2cBABLA6sq by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-28T00:56:10Z
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OR IS JUST REALLY CONFUSING
(DIR) Post #B0gjMFmcqp19O88Ke0 by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-28T00:58:42Z
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what if I turn on autochucking?
(DIR) Post #B0gkodfdjREDXHxsmm by wyatt@soc.megatokyo.moe
2025-11-28T00:59:43.715513Z
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@foone amigas do it this way, too, ya know.whenever there's not a disk inserted they click every couple seconds.
(DIR) Post #B0gkofBE7U5aDXkceu by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-28T01:14:36Z
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@wyatt I'm aware, which is part of why I'm so dead set on avoiding that fate
(DIR) Post #B0hCuOO6GPN8ahICZs by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-28T06:29:47Z
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I thought I'd figured it out, but no, spurious detections.I may just hardware-mod this drive to have another sensor on it. either that or I get out my datalogger and see if I can figure out a signal anywhere
(DIR) Post #B0hCz2QBMUA7uYTvo8 by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-28T06:30:39Z
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oh someone on vogons got it to work with an arduino. I should check that out and see if it works on my drive.it's possible I'm just not sending the right signals with my greaseweazle
(DIR) Post #B0hDgpW4hf56d37TQe by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-28T06:38:32Z
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wild. on this specific drive (TEAC FD-235HF-3240-US), the drive activity LED is socketed.I guess because different manufacturers wanted different colors, without soldering?
(DIR) Post #B0hJsaSt5aur9DcOG0 by RueNahcMohr@infosec.exchange
2025-11-28T07:11:24Z
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@foone red vs green are supposed to be for different density drives..Rue, {point point} floppy avatar, already knows...
(DIR) Post #B0hJsc498YJW743eyG by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-28T07:47:51Z
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@RueNahcMohr this one is yellow
(DIR) Post #B0hOG4cRXhq797Xh1E by lordsplodge@brettspiel.space
2025-11-28T08:30:46Z
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@foone I read “relube Teal’c”
(DIR) Post #B0hOG5vcfsm9CtWWYK by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-28T08:36:39Z
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@lordsplodge oh my
(DIR) Post #B0hQ7XFbvAKPFQv2qe by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-28T08:57:39Z
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@astrid yeah! I was looking into switching it with an RGB LED for this project. sadly not easily possible given how the PCB works
(DIR) Post #B0hQButhweQRkGlOTI by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-28T08:58:41Z
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https://github.com/dhansel/ArduinoFDC/blob/main/ArduinoFDC.cpp#L1806the arduino FDC code treats it as a flag that's cleared by the seek, not "you have to seek to detect a disk". Odd
(DIR) Post #B0hQR53oRR2Xboijj6 by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-28T09:01:25Z
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there's this Old New Thing about windows 95 almost having floppy disk detection:https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20090402-00/?p=18643but I'm not sure if that two-styles-doing-opposite-things is relevant
(DIR) Post #B0hQrqU4kCnSDgldUO by oblomov@sociale.network
2025-11-28T09:06:09Z
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@foone couldn't they have done that by doing the training once with a spinning attempt?
(DIR) Post #B0hQvebgqT7AXe937g by jakob@soc.nym.se
2025-11-28T09:06:51Z
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@foone it’s also an odd argument because the floppy drive making grinding noises for no apparent reason *when windows starts, at boot time* seems perfectly in line with how I expected computers to behave in the 90s
(DIR) Post #B0hRHbfISngLmxIeCO by daniel_gonzalez@neopaquita.es
2025-11-28T09:07:16Z
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@foone I've just read it and I think it could be done by running the test once a floppy drive was used and reported file contents. A lazy non-interactive initialization. Or am I missing something?
(DIR) Post #B0hRHcx3gFU3mKcLWS by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-28T09:10:48Z
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@daniel_gonzalez there's a followup that explains that: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20090403-00/?p=18633
(DIR) Post #B0hSnW5UpryBiAKmKe by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-28T09:27:45Z
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C:\Users\Foone\Apps\greaseweazle-1.22>gw read --format ibm.1440 test6.img --drive 2Reading c=0-79:h=0-1 revs=2Format ibm.1440T0.0: Ignoring unexpected sector C:2 H:0 R:8 N:2T0.0: Ignoring unexpected sector C:2 H:0 R:3 N:2T0.0: Ignoring unexpected sector C:2 H:0 R:9 N:2T0.0: Ignoring unexpected sector C:2 H:0 R:14 N:2GUESS WHO HAS TWO THUMBS AND JUST UNCALIBRATED THEIR FLOPPY DRIVE
(DIR) Post #B0hTg3qBYhFQ23BJ0S by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-28T09:37:38Z
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fixed it. See these two screws? The controller PCB can shift forward and back, and the track-zero sensor is mounted ON this PCB. Since the rest of the drive hardware isn't mounted to this, if you mess up their relative positioning, you move where track 0 is on the disk.
(DIR) Post #B0hTx6oHlumMAFQDIG by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-28T09:40:48Z
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my guess is either:1. there's no way to get a disk insertion signal out of this drive, without flickering the light and making a noise2. you can't do it through the greaseweazle, because it doesn't let you even TRY to seek to track -1
(DIR) Post #B0hU2R3FwSpmOExpRY by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-28T09:41:50Z
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for #2, my guess is that the silent way they expect you to query for a disk is bouncing off the track zero sensor. You have to issue a seek to refresh the "is there a disk?" signal, so when can you do that without making noise? When the head already can't move, because it hit track zero and is trying to move DOWN
(DIR) Post #B0hU53FatExdRPyyAK by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-28T09:42:15Z
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but the greaseweazle tools don't let you bounce off the track zero sensor. maybe I can easily hack that without needing new firmware?
(DIR) Post #B0hUMpprVOlF31QUgy by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-28T09:45:23Z
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of course that's if the sensor even stops your movement there. they might be expecting the controller to stop you, using the track 0 sensor signal
(DIR) Post #B0hUWzbS2pZKElWshE by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-28T09:47:18Z
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Command Failed: Seek: Invalid cylinder -1booo
(DIR) Post #B0hVN5tBuyy6n8feme by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-28T09:56:39Z
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what if I do something very stupid and tell greaseweazle this is a flippy diskflippy disks can seek to -8. it's allowed.
(DIR) Post #B0hVvstSEBpYcaNpA0 by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-28T10:02:55Z
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OH HELLO CMD_NOCLICK_STEPthere's already support for this in greaseweazle, just not in the default tools?
(DIR) Post #B0hW1CBvuD67vAYj8i by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-28T10:03:53Z
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/* CMD_NOCLICK_STEP, length=2 * Steps outward from cylinder 0. This is expected to be ignored by the drive, * but will reset the Disk Change signal if a disk has been inserted. * On successful return the drive is always at cylinder 0. */HOW DID I MISS THIS
(DIR) Post #B0hWtujCXHAzgcDBvE by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-28T10:13:47Z
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implemented support for that into the tools, and... yep that works!It's still flashing the activity LED, but I think I can fix that by adjusting the straps: I can tell it to only show the light IF we're also spun up to speed, not just every time we're selected.
(DIR) Post #B0hcPaGGfJC7FPbCts by ruawhitepaw@chitter.xyz
2025-11-28T11:15:30Z
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@foone If you know your way around Rust, this library I made could be useful?https://codeberg.org/Rua/greaseweazle-rs
(DIR) Post #B0huvZWsikQJQ1lyrY by mira@shark.community
2025-11-28T14:42:58Z
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@foone That’s an interesting way of doing it
(DIR) Post #B0knlI5uZY4eFDBimO by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-30T00:06:47Z
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straps adjusted and now it doesn't blink while polling for a floppy.nice.
(DIR) Post #B0komSyvg8tyFr2xDE by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-30T00:18:10Z
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it was just reporting "pin 34 is high/low" but I decided to give it some character:
(DIR) Post #B0kotF0Y21kkwV2B2u by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-30T00:19:24Z
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the activity light on the drive stays off, but the one on the greaseweazle is strobing its activity light.
(DIR) Post #B0koxDgCuZFHywPv8K by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-30T00:19:40Z
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@julia everything I do is, in some way
(DIR) Post #B0kqDlXksI9Zazuw5I by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-30T00:34:24Z
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by rewriting my wrapper code to using greaseweazle tools code directly (instead of just spawning a subprocess, something python is Not Fast At), it now only takes 0.02s to poll the drive.I can detect up to 50 drive insertions PER SECOND
(DIR) Post #B0kqHB2YXDADXcx0t6 by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-30T00:34:45Z
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it's also broken completely and can't detect disks anymore.so... I gotta work on that minor hiccup
(DIR) Post #B0krDiqgzcYZC1JnMm by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-30T00:45:38Z
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I love that kind of work. you have a working program and you refactor heavily to speed it up, and now it's an order of magnitude faster! and also you broke it in the process so it's no longer working. you have bugged (and buggered) the program.
(DIR) Post #B0kroGubpA6hGMZv4S by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-30T00:52:15Z
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the greaseweazle tools code is odd to me, and I'm not awake enough to really tell if this is strangely written code or if it's just designed very different from how I'd do it
(DIR) Post #B0kryLgMwX52xBis9A by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-30T00:54:05Z
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for example, the CLI tools use this sort of wrapper, to handle selecting the right drive, turning on the motor, etc:util.with_drive_selectedbut with that name, It'd expect a contextmanager, right? you'd do:with util.with_drive_selected(DRIVE)): do_something_to_the_drive()
(DIR) Post #B0ks4XdpOPDJmVUGUy by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-30T00:55:13Z
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nope! it takes a function instead.so the code creates a lambda.util.with_drive_selected(lambda: _pin_get(usb, args), usb, args.drive,motor=False)
(DIR) Post #B0ks7UZZG5Xd8HtwlU by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-30T00:55:45Z
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like, it's not WRONG, it certainly works. It just feels slightly odd.
(DIR) Post #B0ksBJnxEes2tXSHaq by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-30T00:56:28Z
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if I had to guess, maybe the programmer was not super-familiar with python? or was familiar with Old Python? but who knows
(DIR) Post #B0ksGGDjzLJjE7sCGm by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-30T00:57:18Z
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the only real issue it causes is that you can't easily get data out of this structure. because it's not a contextmanager you can't just assign to a local variable, and because util.with_drive_selected ignores the return value, you can't just return something from your called function
(DIR) Post #B0ksJMAALqXaWdg3M0 by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-30T00:57:56Z
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I just made a class that has a __call__ that saves away the result, it works just fine and is only like 6 lines of code. but it's 6 lines of code I wouldn't need if this used contextmanagers
(DIR) Post #B0ksmjNb6yI6vcxzbk by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-30T01:03:09Z
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ANYWAY it's fixed, and at the same speed. Neato. Here's some undocumented code to do this: https://gist.github.com/foone/086523ea41d6b9da7caf17dfc0cfd45d
(DIR) Post #B0ksyK9yhfc8Bb7lhY by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-30T01:05:16Z
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So on this drive (TEAC FD-235HF-3240), the whole summary for how you do this is: 1. noclick_step the drive2. check pin 34: if it's high, there's a disk in there, if it's low, there's no disk.
(DIR) Post #B0ktFvQLPTxUgIAkBE by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-30T01:08:26Z
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the trick is how you do the noclick_step: Greaseweazle implements this here:https://github.com/keirf/greaseweazle-firmware/blob/master/src/floppy.c#L499
(DIR) Post #B0ktKcx1WG0QpuhS1A by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-30T01:09:18Z
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the way it works is:1. seek to track 0. We have to be at track zero to do this, so the first time we try to "noclick", we might make a seek sound.2. seek outward, to track -1
(DIR) Post #B0ktUnmC7rGzJ3UDFA by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-30T01:11:02Z
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on a properly functioning/configured drive, seeking OUT from track 0 should do nothing. We've got a track 0 sensor, there's no where to go, so the drive doesn't spin and the steppers don't step. No noise... but this does make pin-34 reset to the correct value. Now your pin-34 will tell you if you have a disk or not.
(DIR) Post #B0ktYpCMmR9wsKe86i by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-30T01:11:53Z
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it's also got code to re-correct on drives that aren't working correctly: if it seeked, go back to where we started. That might make a noise, but at least it won't mess up where we are on the disk.
(DIR) Post #B0ktfAeztmZjAw42nQ by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-30T01:13:02Z
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note that for this to work, your floppy drive has to be putting out a DSKCHG signal on pin 34. Some drives can be configured to put it out on other pins, or put other signals on pin 34, it's a mess.
(DIR) Post #B0ktlYfNYcB1MnHwMy by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-30T01:14:09Z
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and the Old New Thing blogpost talks about half of drives doing this backwards, so now that I've got disk-change-detection-code that works, I'm eager to connect to some other floppy drives and see what's differently incompatible
(DIR) Post #B0ktoa8aXneanXOPMO by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-30T01:14:26Z
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I'm guessing just the polarity of /DSKCHG?
(DIR) Post #B0ku0Al2jP2LYiuFyy by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-30T01:16:49Z
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anyway, the downsides of this method:1. It'll probably flash the activity light. My drive, it did, but I could re-strap it to not flash. 2. The greaseweazle activity like will definitely flash. 3. No idea how much power it uses. This probably only matters if you are building a battery-powered project with a floppy drive (AND WHO EVER DO THAT?) but it might still be trying to power the steppers and wasting a bunch of energy compared to not doing this. I'll have to test.
(DIR) Post #B0kuBmKLODUXGPx6KO by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-30T01:18:53Z
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the TEAC manual also said something about not lighting the activity light if it was selected for less than 35 milliseconds. It's possible the greaseweazle is just making DSKCHG go high for too long, and a shorter duration would avoid the flash.
(DIR) Post #B0kuK5XxobOFBnHkYa by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-30T01:20:22Z
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but yeah. with the drive strapped to not do an activity light, this code can reliably detect when a floppy is inserted into it, with no sound or light from the drive when it checks it. beautiful.
(DIR) Post #B0kuPRxduJCQ9Zqwfw by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-30T01:21:23Z
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TAKE THAT, AMIGA!
(DIR) Post #B0kusAPAG8rK6OQ3hQ by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-30T01:26:33Z
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also my code doesn't work. damn it. I forgot I also edited some other code.
(DIR) Post #B0kuz80HaNdugK6HtQ by mmu_man@m.g3l.org
2025-11-30T01:27:42Z
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@foone reminds me I never finished the FDC driver for Haiku…
(DIR) Post #B0l0DSTGmgeRzAJMlU by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-30T02:26:11Z
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@Starra just because it'd be annoying to have it flashing or bzzting all the time. I'm hoping to have it able to sit in standby for a while, but jump into action as soon as you insert a disk. flashing or making noise would be distracting
(DIR) Post #B0l0gia3y5vsLXRPCS by foone@digipres.club
2025-11-30T02:31:41Z
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I fixed it at the expense of making one function slightly Naughty:https://gist.github.com/foone/086523ea41d6b9da7caf17dfc0cfd45d
(DIR) Post #B0mu7Nr6ox8uWa6OR6 by stark@mastodon.mit.edu
2025-11-30T07:36:55Z
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@foone is it intended to be used as a decorator?
(DIR) Post #B0mu7Ok3Wf5xGzoH56 by foone@digipres.club
2025-12-01T00:26:35Z
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@stark nope!