Post AzBGjOBedWfjr6Tnm4 by mackuba@martianbase.net
(DIR) More posts by mackuba@martianbase.net
(DIR) Post #AzB1oiEE3GFK9GlLNo by wjmaggos@liberal.city
2025-10-13T20:02:53Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Is the only point of a fedi relay such that when you look at your "federated timeline" on a small instance, you can see much more of the fedi. You can see posts from servers you are otherwise not connected to? I've never understood them. My recommendation to fix any lack of content concerns is always to follow more people, especially news accounts from flipboard.com. #SocialWeb
(DIR) Post #AzB5pWc17r8WEAXA8G by reiver@mastodon.social
2025-10-13T20:47:47Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wjmaggos Yes. Federated time-line & search. ...But, a Fediverse relay could also function as a "community" or "topic" relay, etc.For example, a "neuroscience" relay. Or, a "Vancouver" relay. Or, a "golang programming" relay. Etc.
(DIR) Post #AzB75zsYBG3jaGgYpk by wjmaggos@liberal.city
2025-10-13T21:02:01Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@reiver so it just gathers updates from wherever it is set to pull from? then you can either pull it into your instance or search it?is some form of relay necessary to do any search in real-time? I mean is that basically what search engines do, constantly try to build the most complete relay of what's known on the decentralized network?I'm also thinking of ATproto and how AFAICT the relay becomes a point of centralization, but lots of relays would make search etc work less well.
(DIR) Post #AzBAy1n7aOLB10bMVk by reiver@mastodon.social
2025-10-13T21:45:24Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wjmaggos Regarding:"so it [a relay] just gathers updates from wherever"Yes, the relay is in control of where the Activities it shares come from.The relay decides what Activities to does and doesn't share....
(DIR) Post #AzBEYAWgt1sCOTqDZY by reiver@mastodon.social
2025-10-13T21:46:26Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wjmaggos A relay could have a simple algorithm for what it decides to share. Or, a relay could have a complex algorithm for it.For example, a relay could share anything shared with it. Or, a relay might share everything from a list of users. Or, a relay might share posts with the word "BANANA" in it. Etc etc etc.But, from the point of view of a server listening to a relay, it isn't aware of what algorithm the relay is using....
(DIR) Post #AzBEYBdok1ATqsBQJs by reiver@mastodon.social
2025-10-13T21:48:02Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wjmaggos Regarding:"then you can either pull it into your instance [...]"Typically, the relay PUSHES Activities to other servers listening to it.(Typically other servers are not usually PULLING Activities from the relay.)This is similar to how typically, the people you follow PUSH Activities to your ActivityPub 'inbox'....
(DIR) Post #AzBEYCgKs8mD4yMwsq by reiver@mastodon.social
2025-10-13T21:48:49Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wjmaggos Regarding:"search it"At least currently, a server would not search the relay directly.Typically, a server would put all the Activities it gets from a relay into its own database. And then, that server would use its own facilities to search the Activities locally (without further involving the relay)....
(DIR) Post #AzBEYDjYxcx6LGt2YK by reiver@mastodon.social
2025-10-13T21:49:55Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wjmaggos There are 2 new technologies for search on the Fediverse. One the Mastodon team created. The other I created with some friends.(I didn't know the Mastodon people were working on it, too.)But, AFAIK, relays don't support either of these yet.And also, IMO, there should be (many) "search servers".
(DIR) Post #AzBEYEZJrCLuvn6NE0 by reiver@mastodon.social
2025-10-13T21:53:26Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wjmaggos Regarding:"I'm also thinking of ATproto and how AFAICT the relay becomes a point of centralization, but lots of relays would make search etc work less well."Bluesky has their own concept of a relay that is similar to the Fediverse idea of a relay.(Although how relays are used on Bluesky versus the Fediverse is a bit different.)HOWEVER —...
(DIR) Post #AzBEYFAtbUPUoKgNnM by reiver@mastodon.social
2025-10-13T21:55:54Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wjmaggos HOWEVER — Bluesky also has a special relay (that is the source of the problem). What is called: the FIREHOSE relay.It isn't the existence of relays on Bluesky that is making things lean towards centralization.It is more due to this special FIREHOSE relay, and how in practice it is being used....
(DIR) Post #AzBEYG3UKW4xXeDyt6 by reiver@mastodon.social
2025-10-13T21:59:58Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wjmaggos If people developing on Bluesky would either set up their own relay, or choose from a large set of expanding relays, then there wouldn't necessarily be this same centralization problem.However, that is not what is happening.In practice, many, many applications have been all using that special Bluesky FIREHOSE relay.I.e., they are all using this single relay.That is the problem.That is one of the things that is making things learn towards centralization on Bluesky....
(DIR) Post #AzBEYGixqJFvcHd6XI by reiver@mastodon.social
2025-10-13T22:03:10Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wjmaggos So....Relays aren't inherently "bad".Relays don't necessarily lead to centralization.Relays can be useful.Relays can be desirable.But, there should be A LOT of relays out there.And, (in practice) people should be able to create their own relays.But, there shouldn't be just one relay that everyone uses. That is the problem.
(DIR) Post #AzBEYHYMlCNABhg9ei by reiver@mastodon.social
2025-10-13T22:11:34Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wjmaggos Now, I should acknowledge that things on Bluesky are less-worse than they were before, with respect to relays.I talked to one person who has an AT-Protocol application, that has set up their own relay. (So, that is an improvement.)And, there are some people who have set up some "toy" relays — but I don't know if any application developers are using these. (But, I suspect probably not for most of them.)...
(DIR) Post #AzBEYIQxUE2cv1DkkS by reiver@mastodon.social
2025-10-13T22:12:42Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wjmaggos There may have been other improvements since then, too, with Bluesky, and the broader ATmosphere.(I haven't attended a Bluesky / AT-Protocol conference in a while. So, I am not as in touch with that community as I used to be.)
(DIR) Post #AzBEYJPZqqWxx1aAEa by wjmaggos@liberal.city
2025-10-13T22:25:25Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@reiver I'm under the impression that it's the FIREHOSE that makes bluesky feel a lot more like twitter than the fedi does. everything gets seen, search is more complete etc.so my assumption was that if lots more relays get used instead of just the FIREHOSE, they get more decentralized but also it will stop having the feeling newbies expect. so they can say they're decentralized while realizing everybody will keep relying on them for a better experience. while providing "credible exit" etc.
(DIR) Post #AzBG81XVsOR6tvt2fI by reiver@mastodon.social
2025-10-13T22:43:10Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wjmaggos Ignoring the social-movement aspects, there are some things about a FIREHOSE relay (of everything) that can be attractive to developers.For example, a FIREHOSE relay (of everything) can help you have a total-view of the whole social-network in real-time.That is poweful, from a software development point of view.But —
(DIR) Post #AzBGjOBedWfjr6Tnm4 by mackuba@martianbase.net
2025-10-13T22:49:55Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wjmaggos I think it's also e.g. for hashtags - for example, on my personal instance, if I click on a hashtag # swiftlang, I see 2 posts from the last week, while on https://mastodon.social/tags/swiftlang I see 20. One of the two is from someone I follow, and the other is from a person that someone I follow replied to. This makes following hashtags completely pointless on small instances like mine, because I mostly just see the posts I've already seen there. So a Fedi relay can fix that.
(DIR) Post #AzBH7RCb4sLu9nO6kK by mackuba@martianbase.net
2025-10-13T22:54:16Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wjmaggos @reiver I think looking for similarity between ATProto relays and Fedi relays just leads to confusion, because imho they serve very different roles: one is a critical piece of the architecture, and the other is just an optional tool to let you see more content than otherwise… I wrote a bit about this in my blog post here: https://mackuba.eu/2025/08/20/introduction-to-atproto/#relay
(DIR) Post #AzBJKKjKeSMdl0yaYq by wjmaggos@liberal.city
2025-10-13T23:19:05Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mackuba yes hashtags for sure. forgot about that.
(DIR) Post #AzBkemj4yEbB8gpnay by wjmaggos@liberal.city
2025-10-14T04:25:17Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mackubaso this was my understanding, probably from reading this. doesn't it mean that either who controls the main relay will centralize power (can ban some PDSs etc), or if other relays get used then using AT/bluesky won't work as well? unless lots of relays exist but are somehow all kept identical.