Post Awcll4u2diHWmRK79c by futurebird@sauropods.win
(DIR) More posts by futurebird@sauropods.win
(DIR) Post #AwcjbqjpjaAWKp1KT2 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-07-29T10:12:28Z
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I was trying to understand how the mere possibility of free busses in NYC was a national issue in some places. I thought NYC was terrible and on fire. Let us suffer.
(DIR) Post #AwcjbrsjTyshsiBwye by jhavok@mstdn.party
2025-07-29T10:26:47Z
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@futurebird Free bus service working out would be a disaster, as it would encourage other places to try the same thing. Who knows what other public services it might spread to?
(DIR) Post #AwcjbshmQBiMR24iXo by juliette@mastodon.green
2025-07-29T11:02:01Z
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@jhavok @futurebird Next thing you know they'll be handing out free books
(DIR) Post #AwcjbtYbFnxv4qmtsG by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-07-29T11:10:33Z
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@juliette @jhavok The free buses and city run grocery stores have been trotted around as radical ideas HOWEVER. We already have a city run grocery program and sometimes the buses are free due to there being too much traffic to collect fares. NYC has a program that subsidizes farmers markets and fruit stands and it's been excellent for health, especially for children. In the 90s there were parts of the city where you couldn't buy fresh fruit for dozens of blocks.
(DIR) Post #AwcjbyUAvgOgMZkwAi by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-07-29T10:12:46Z
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You don't even go here.
(DIR) Post #Awcjc1d9EmMC7Gye4e by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-07-29T11:12:46Z
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@juliette @jhavok My point is these ideas aren't radical, or untested. They are very practical and the frameworks are already in place. That they get treated as radical is frankly disturbing. We tried letting the market supply fresh fruit to every corner of the city and it did not work. The city program means you are alway within waking distance of a fruit stand.My only criticism is the hours of the farmer's market are terrible for working people. They need to be open AT NIGHT.
(DIR) Post #AwclI0M2TIMkH9YVyS by llewelly@sauropods.win
2025-07-29T11:33:28Z
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@futurebird well, what with all the super wealthy people eaters who abuse NYC politics, if free buses can be made to happen in NYC, perhaps they can be made to happen in other parts of the USA. I hope, perhaps in insanity.Free buses terrify the wealthy. And that's what we need.
(DIR) Post #Awcll4u2diHWmRK79c by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-07-29T11:38:43Z
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@llewelly The more I look into it the more doable it seems. First of all trying to enforce fare collection on buses is a huge headache that slows down the busses makes the drivers miserable and that fails to capture the funds it costs several times over. That cost savings isn't enough to fully cover the decrease in fares but it makes it less onerous. MTA bus service reduces traffic, and makes the city function. The subway is overcrowded. Another benefit. It can be done.
(DIR) Post #Awcmhi3dDmo30olbGa by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-29T11:49:16Z
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@futurebird > First of all trying to enforce fare collection on buses is a huge headache that slows down the busses makes the drivers miserable and that fails to capture the funds it costs several times overDigital payment system address the first part, but probably end up costing even more. Bespoke transport card may be cheaper, but move a whole lot of admin onto passengers, discouraging the casual rides that can lead to regular use, and more utilization of existing services.@llewelly
(DIR) Post #Awcn4ecYAJfJ0u2Z7I by llewelly@sauropods.win
2025-07-29T11:53:25Z
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@strypey @futurebird I don't live anywhere near NYC, but I ride busses a lot, and regularly see people who need 3 or more tries to figure out why the heck their phone app isn't cooperating with the digital payment systems. Saw this in the SF bay area as well. Digital payment is fabulous for fascists, but terrible for actual human beings.
(DIR) Post #Awcn9B3VW1bElao30a by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-07-29T11:54:17Z
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@strypey @llewelly We already have a system where you don't need to pay when entering the bus... except when you do. It's very confusing. Digital systems risk being used for surveillance and frankly the notion that one need a charged smartphone to do basic things in NYC is very annoying and harms a lot of seniors. And not even just because of the cost. Learning to use such systems is taxing and exhausting.
(DIR) Post #Awco9ZJBRaR9wJtBSK by mattmcirvin@mathstodon.xyz
2025-07-29T12:05:31Z
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@futurebird @strypey @llewelly My city has free buses! It's not a place you think of as a bastion of progressivism, despite being in the bluest of states. The system isn't the greatest otherwise, but this is a fantastic detail.I do find OMNY and the identical system now on the MBTA to be great conveniences... if they work. I was just wrestling with nonfunctioning phone pay the other day in another context (an amusement park, where I had reason to stash my valuables in a locker) and it's true that it can turn from a convenience to a hindrance in an instant.
(DIR) Post #AwcobOhyRsERAjkq5Q by serverlessaoife@mastodon.social
2025-07-29T11:14:02Z
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@futurebird @juliette @jhavok The buses ran so fast in 2020/2021 when they were free. No minutes long dwell times as people funble around for their metrocards. Was great. Costs less than any of the cop surges in the subway too.
(DIR) Post #AwcobPti1jDGrQFj16 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-07-29T11:17:28Z
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@serverlessaoife @juliette @jhavok I can't think of a bigger waste of money than having cops chasing hipsters and kids around the subway for jumping the turn. I get why it annoys people. Some people think it's trendy and cool and it's so obnoxious however most people skipping fares can't afford them.
(DIR) Post #AwcobR41gr3mTi5Tjk by serverlessaoife@mastodon.social
2025-07-29T12:10:32Z
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@futurebird @juliette @jhavok Almost every time I've jumped the turnstile it was because of a faulty MetroCard reader eating the fare and locking me out of using it again for 15 minutes and I'm sure there was someone angry about it not knowing the 30 seconds before hopping over every time.
(DIR) Post #AwcowxSGSN5V1Bgfiq by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-07-29T12:14:30Z
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@serverlessaoife @juliette @jhavokI have never done it myself. Like swearing it's something that would probably kill me from instant metal damage due to internal mom voice.
(DIR) Post #Awcp607PvEkRszFRc8 by debcha@saturation.social
2025-07-29T12:15:34Z
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@futurebird @llewelly I was already predisposed to it from my own research (there is a joke that every time tech tries to revolutionize personal mobility, they end up reinventing the bus) but Steven Higashida wrote the book on it and made me an absolute convert to (free) city buses: https://www.stevenhigashide.com/better-buses-better-cities
(DIR) Post #AwcpLr6LDSy8YJIxua by davep@infosec.exchange
2025-07-29T12:18:58Z
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@futurebird @llewelly Plus it's a public service. It doesn't need to make a profit.
(DIR) Post #Awcpsoq2eORL5fOoHg by paulc@mstdn.social
2025-07-29T12:24:54Z
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@futurebird @juliette @jhavok I think free mass transit is a great idea. Plus the savings on not purchasing and maintaining equipment related to collecting fares.Of course many people hate the idea of anyone but themselves getting stuff for free. And these days collecting fares also means collecting travel data on individuals, and no one wants to give that up.
(DIR) Post #Awcq1aBmUBTEGKkL3Y by grumpasaurus@infosec.exchange
2025-07-29T12:26:30Z
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@futurebird @llewelly Massachusetts has seen promise in the past 5 years and hope to expand itEd Markey, Ayanna Pressley renew push for fare-free MBTA, public transit https://share.google/zv4z6ih9FkyUOk9Wh
(DIR) Post #AwcqyU5gnoYIQzz2aO by DesertTrail@mastodon.social
2025-07-29T12:37:10Z
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@futurebird we’ve had free buses in Albuquerque for 5 years, and we haven’t collapsed into the sea yet. But I’ll keep you posted.
(DIR) Post #AwcroaS2OpddDfHUrA by ColesStreetPothole@weatherishappening.network
2025-07-29T12:46:32Z
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@futurebird @strypey @llewelly I forget what smart European city I was in, but the buses had three doors on a side, you just got on. You were supposed to have a pass, or you could scan a ticket you bought at one of the scanners mounted on the poles. No one asked to look at your ticket. Sure, they did fare checks on occasion. This is also how the Jersey City light rail works. Free buses for NYC would be better, though. Make buses a destination.
(DIR) Post #AwcsCKDkOaqNpburwm by mem@mastodon.cr
2025-07-29T12:50:49Z
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@futurebird @llewelly did you know in Germany people don't pay at the bus, and they don't have turnstiles? A majority of people have some sort of long term ticket or card with a recurring fixed payment. If you don't have that, you can buy single or multiple fare tickets at vending machines all over the place. The driver doesn't ask for it and, with some exceptions, there are no reading machines onboard where you have to tap whatever. This even applies to short distance trains. Every now and then somebody gets on the bus or metro and they ask to see your ticket or card. It depends on the city, but as a regular user, you won't see them more than once a month and probably less than that.I've been fortunate enough to use public transportation in many countries, and the only thing that beats the german system is "free for all".
(DIR) Post #AwcsaRWCukufPn3DmK by KimSJ@mastodon.social
2025-07-29T12:55:07Z
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@strypey @futurebird @llewelly Digital payments do nothing to solve the problem of people who jump onto the bus without paying.
(DIR) Post #Awcsc0NimOlDpYpJWC by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-07-29T12:55:33Z
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@ColesStreetPothole @strypey @llewelly Technically what you describe is how NYC busses are supposed to work on "select" lines... which are the most popular routes.But, it's very muddled and just making them all free makes more sense.
(DIR) Post #AwctfASLsWxhtq43d2 by ColesStreetPothole@weatherishappening.network
2025-07-29T13:07:16Z
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@futurebird @strypey @llewelly Right? What if—and hear me out here—we just let policies like congestion pricing and free buses work together to reduce traffic and increase use of mass transit?
(DIR) Post #AwctydMkcKez3zj7yK by cocoadog@mastodon.social
2025-07-29T13:10:46Z
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@futurebird @llewelly I've experienced free above-ground transit in three cities that I've visited, and was surprised how much I loved it. I didn't care so much about the money I saved, it was more that somehow the city felt like a much nicer place to be.
(DIR) Post #Awcu1d1wK0WytJQ8MC by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-07-29T13:11:22Z
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@cocoadog @llewelly Yes! This exactly!
(DIR) Post #Awcu6PwCQXPZjW1F8y by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-07-29T13:12:13Z
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@ColesStreetPothole @strypey @llewelly Please leave us alone people who clearly don't even like cities. It's fine that you don't like cities. This isn't for you it's for us. Leave us alone.
(DIR) Post #AwcubLLJYpY6SXVrw8 by mattmcirvin@mathstodon.xyz
2025-07-29T13:15:54Z
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@futurebird @strypey @llewelly About the free buses-- when MVRTA/MeVa went to fare-free, I remember thinking "I'd rather have better frequency than free, if I had to choose," but after they eliminated the fare they got the frequencies up. I suspect it increased ridership and created the idea that there was actually a lot of demand for buses.
(DIR) Post #AwcupxFdPnKq5Hp7rs by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-07-29T13:20:27Z
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@mattmcirvin @strypey @llewelly "I'd rather have better frequency than free, if I had to choose,"I think many New Yorkers are on the same wavelength but for issues like the bus being clean rather than frequency. It's an expensive town and we are used to paying for things. But we have many lines in NYC where frequency is maximized to road space, to run more busses would slow down the ones that are there already. People getting on and off faster might be the only way to improve them.
(DIR) Post #Awcv68gEgpZwAEz25A by wordshaper@weatherishappening.network
2025-07-29T13:23:20Z
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@futurebird @llewelly Free buses in NYC would be awesome. The systemic savings wouldn't be quite as big as if the subway went free as well (since the MTA still needs to maintain the whole fare collection infrastructure for that) but it'd still save on the hardware in the buses themselves.It's also total-cost-gated (there's a limit to how many people can fit in a bus) and progressive since (IIRC) bus ridership tends towards lower income folks.Pay for it with congestion charges!
(DIR) Post #AwcwtK53C07zfIbgFU by johnzajac@dice.camp
2025-07-29T13:43:26Z
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@futurebird @strypey @llewelly IT is an absolute fact that anything the public pays for should be free to the public.That we even engage in debates about this is the height of unseriousness.
(DIR) Post #AwczPAvaxN9MSDV4ZU by ColesStreetPothole@weatherishappening.network
2025-07-29T14:11:37Z
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@futurebird @strypey @llewelly I live in NJ but work in NYC. I keep telling my governor to STFU about congestion pricing, etc., because I know these policies work.
(DIR) Post #AwdFVg9FON7uHn0cCG by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-07-29T11:15:06Z
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@juliette @jhavok Many big cities around the world have night vegetable/fish/fruit markets and this is because people have jobs!There is a farmer's market across the street from me that's only open on Tuesdays from 9am to 2pm which is lovely for the seniors in our neighborhood, but I've only ever been to it twice in 15 years. Upstate farmers also benefit from these markets because they can drive right in and sell direct without the grocery taking a cut. And it's all so fresh! I'm hungry!
(DIR) Post #AwdFVhKyyE6jyTVV7w by llewelly@sauropods.win
2025-07-29T17:12:02Z
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@futurebird @juliette @jhavok consider, if you dare, the eerie nocturnal vegetables of big cities, with their giant eyes and/or echolocation!
(DIR) Post #AwdVhNj1JS7ltDLN0S by mattmcirvin@mathstodon.xyz
2025-07-29T20:13:28Z
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@futurebird @strypey @llewelly I think the subtext and sometimes the text of this debate is the idea that fare enforcement is a way of keeping undesirable people out of the transit system. That there would be less crime and harassment in the subway if they just cracked down on fare jumpers, etc. Equating being OK with ability to pay seems cruel though. The MeVa experience suggests that with free transit you get a lot of people using it for their work commute or doctor's appointments who would otherwise find the fare a financial burden.
(DIR) Post #AwdjC1x3cCmsk0r1Wa by AMS@infosec.exchange
2025-07-29T22:44:40Z
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@futurebird @juliette @jhavok Madison, WI is planning city grocery too, but that's hippy college town so people don't worry as much as when it's NYC doing it.
(DIR) Post #AwdoKG8bFrF0pHzpj6 by AMS@infosec.exchange
2025-07-29T23:42:11Z
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@futurebird @mattmcirvin @strypey @llewelly Most big college towns have campus circulator busses that are fare free because 90%+ of the riders on those routes have or could get university transit cards (so already paid) but mostly because loading times go about 3x faster then.
(DIR) Post #Awe9yIxcCGf8qbtAsi by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-30T03:44:44Z
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@futurebird > We already have a system where you don't need to pay when entering the bus... except when you doAt least one city in my country has started refuse cash payments, insisting on a digital payment card. I strongly object to this, for all the reasons you give (a phone is not required, but ...).Plus I imagine the total cost of the digital payment infrastructure is greater than those of cash-handling. So making the buses free to ride would make more sense financially too.@llewelly
(DIR) Post #AweDKyLLJja7QXUITI by mattmcirvin@mathstodon.xyz
2025-07-29T14:50:45Z
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@futurebird @strypey @llewelly Here's MeVa's report on the social benefits of fare-free service in the Merrimack Valley, 3 years on (PDF):https://mevatransit.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/MeVa_Fare_Free_Analysis_02042025.pdfThe expense of fare collection was eating more than a quarter of revenue, but when you look at wider social, health and even commercial effects, it came out as a huge net loss. The fundamental assumption, of course, is that transit systems exist for the benefit of everyone living in the area. But without that assumption there are a lot of things you can't do. I can see many of these details being read by someone in the current federal administration as an outrage because the wrong sort of people are benefiting at the cost of taxpayers.A wrinkle I hadn't even thought of: under the old regime, fare collection became a source of friction between bus drivers who had different attitudes toward strictness of enforcement. Take away fare collection and that disappears.
(DIR) Post #AweDKzWiuuHN67otqi by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-30T04:21:43Z
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@mattmcirvin > fare collection became a source of friction between bus drivers who had different attitudes toward strictness of enforcementI imagine this is a thing here. I've had drivers with a commercial mentality who refused me service over a 5c shortfall, or a lack of credit on my transport card even though I was willing and able to pay by EFTPOS (debit card). While others drivers with a public service mentality just let me on anyway in similar circumstances.@futurebird @llewelly
(DIR) Post #AweDL6CQ6nCJnBNHfs by mattmcirvin@mathstodon.xyz
2025-07-29T15:04:36Z
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@futurebird @strypey @llewelly The switch to free was initially a temporary program funded out of COVID relief money. It was evidently successful enough that after it ended, there was a push to bring it back for good with state funding.