Post AwUYONmt8PJYfMQBcm by MrBerard@mastodon.acm.org
(DIR) More posts by MrBerard@mastodon.acm.org
(DIR) Post #AwUXc2mZvZIlcWE7YO by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-07-25T12:22:33Z
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I think on the left we don't value propaganda because we think it's easy to make and expect it to simply materialize out of nature like the rain or the wind. And we are suspicious of anyone trying to sell anything.I'm using propaganda here to simply mean "media made to persuade" rather than "media made to deceive."Part of the reason it's not valued is because we think "reality has a left-wing bias."Why would you fund media about how the earth is a globe? It's true. Reality will win.
(DIR) Post #AwUXtafRCK3ndRFmTY by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-07-25T12:25:42Z
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But this is the "marketplace of ideas" fallacy. And maybe it wouldn't even be a fallacy if everyone participating in the conversation was just there to express what they sincerely believed and listen and learn. But we aren't in a marketplace. Or a Quaker meeting hall. If one side throws millions at "the earth is flat!" the natural weakness of this argument won't keep it from spreading. We are bringing good faith and listening to a propaganda fight.
(DIR) Post #AwUYN79VUxT0mdOdPc by RolloTreadway@beige.party
2025-07-25T12:31:00Z
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@futurebird Many on the left assume everyone agrees with them. Many on the right assume everyone should be forced to agree with them. So the ones on the right will happily to anything to get their way, no matter the cost. And the ones on the left won't do a single thing to work against this.
(DIR) Post #AwUYONmt8PJYfMQBcm by MrBerard@mastodon.acm.org
2025-07-25T12:31:00Z
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@futurebird The problem of the left in failing to communicate with persuasion of the other side is covered quite well in a recent-ish Guardian Long Read, also available in Audio:How does woke start winning again? – podcast https://www.theguardian.com/news/audio/2025/jul/11/how-does-woke-start-winning-again-podcastTraces change across recent history, overreaches and backlashes along with research on the topic. Surprisingly good.
(DIR) Post #AwUYPSkOBE7qL0ldWy by RolloTreadway@beige.party
2025-07-25T12:31:25Z
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@futurebird Many on the left assume everyone agrees with them. Many on the right assume everyone should be forced to agree with them. So the ones on the right will happily do anything to get their way, no matter the cost. And the ones on the left won't do a single thing to work against this.
(DIR) Post #AwUYZZVrsc3wDXnORk by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-07-25T12:33:18Z
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I think we should pick some core non-negotiable ideas and put money and time behind propagandizing those ideas. 1. The scientific method is VERY effective. 2. All people have a right to exist. 3. All living things have intrinsic value and beauty.4. Bodily AutonomyWe could get into the weeds of the boundaries of these, but I'm not interested in that at the moment. I feel like the center is being lost.
(DIR) Post #AwUYit1ihJNtLQ8ThY by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-07-25T12:34:59Z
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I don't want to argue about if it's wrong to eliminate the small pox virus or whatever.The fact that people on the left love to investigate the boundaries and keeps the bigger message lost in a sea of noise.
(DIR) Post #AwUYlM5vawf04mHV0C by menelion@dragonscave.space
2025-07-25T12:35:14Z
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@futurebird Leftists? Don't value propaganda? Sorry, no. Their propaganda is other in values and matter, but it's as strong, as pressuring and as aggressive as the right propaganda. Just for other things.
(DIR) Post #AwUYrzzSB2HhY0Q96u by wonkothesane@mstdn.social
2025-07-25T12:36:35Z
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@futurebird I consume a lot of left wing propaganda by that definition. But my understanding is white cis men are more likely too as we are not impacted in the same way as politics and can be afford to be spectators (even if some of us are participating in direct actions) I see the issue as financial. I’m not sure anyone watches Dave Rubin but some billionaire sees value in having him out there. There isn’t a rich left wing apparatus to finance left wing propaganda the way the right has.
(DIR) Post #AwUYszzFfsxjpKnrP6 by ChaosRules@mastodon.social
2025-07-25T12:36:46Z
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@futurebird I feel like it is not necessary the expectation that it will come by itself. It's more so that "propaganda" is seen as something inherently bad and has to be avoided. Then add the tendency of right wingers to label every opinion they don't like as "propaganda" and you get people scared to give even they slightest appearance of doing something that could be seen as propaganda.
(DIR) Post #AwUYtdaURMvGe7WeMS by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-07-25T12:36:51Z
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@RolloTreadway "Many on the left assume everyone agrees with them."Yeah. I really don't want to think someone is sitting there thinking "The USA would be better if all the white people disappeared."Mostly because I have no choice but to fight that person and I hate fighting. There are people who think this. And it's time to fight.
(DIR) Post #AwUZNtvcFaVY0tq0kC by ChaosRules@mastodon.social
2025-07-25T12:38:13Z
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@futurebird Plus the imbalance of factual arguments that a lot of science communicators are struggling with: Creating a false fact or conspiracy theory takes ten times less effort then disproving it.
(DIR) Post #AwUZNvKp1MGSNMdefg by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-07-25T12:42:23Z
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@ChaosRules I think the focus on "disproving" is also a problem. What we need to do is make a persuasive case for the alternative. Disproving has a lot of academic details that matter to people who find academic arguments persuasive. But those people probably aren't thinking the world is flat in the first place. It's fun to pick the arguments apart. But, this does nothing to address why they have cropped up in the first place.
(DIR) Post #AwUZrx5z2UlMWY163M by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-07-25T12:47:49Z
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@passenger I think you make some good points. I'm just frustrated by the asymmetry.
(DIR) Post #AwUa1LL0HCakJfWJGa by maco@wandering.shop
2025-07-25T12:49:29Z
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@futurebird and even in a Quaker meeting room, certain things will result in an elder whispering in your ear or people standing in protest until you to sit down and shut up.
(DIR) Post #AwUaLJF7m5UFbwI5yq by paninid@mastodon.world
2025-07-25T12:53:05Z
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@futurebird @passenger Democracy and republicanism are leftist experiments by people skeptical of wannabe god-kings: https://inaniludibrio.com/2024/08/13/skeptical-of-god-kings/
(DIR) Post #AwUaOAO79aqf14rH4C by alisynthesis@io.waxandleather.com
2025-07-25T12:53:35Z
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@futurebird @passenger I think the simplest way to frame the asymmetry might be this: one side values money over all other things, and that gives them a terrific advantage.Great post and thread, thank you.
(DIR) Post #AwUalNCrf1sVQtf6oa by mhstoixeiwmenopip@kafeneio.social
2025-07-25T12:57:47Z
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@futurebird oh I'm actually a HUGE fan of propaganda. Illustrations of woodland creatures sharing food radicalized me, imagine how much more we can do!
(DIR) Post #AwUbT7Ji6CmEtTis0O by Uair@autistics.life
2025-07-25T13:05:43Z
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@futurebird The center can not hold, and mere anarchy is loosed upon the world.
(DIR) Post #AwUcCyX95TmiyQsF9c by JessTheUnstill@infosec.exchange
2025-07-25T13:14:00Z
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Of course, even with those 4 truths (which I wholeheartedly agree with), a malicious actor can easily shatter even a leftist community with a statement like "Billionaires and Nazis are people too...". Or "well, livestock is a living thing, so we should ban eating meat". Or any number of other bad faith arguments that suddenly creates yet another holy war.The core problem is that there's really nothing unifying the left beyond "Not Conservative". Our coalition includes everything from nudist hippies living in a commune in the mountains to billionaires that care about one specific cause that the right wing of the day opposes, but are otherwise just as reprehensible as the rest of them.@futurebird
(DIR) Post #AwUcf9UNwsc73m1Ctc by bucknam@mastodon.social
2025-07-25T13:19:05Z
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@futurebird as someone who makes a living creating propaganda (I’m a designer & work on various advocacy campaigns) let me tell you *good* propaganda takes *hard work*. Most of it involves knowing your audience and how to get them to react in a desired way. Best case, they begin to empathize — but some don’t find empathy easy or comfortable. In my experience campaigns fail because orgs make assumptions about how the audience will think about things, and not actually test or research it.
(DIR) Post #AwUcvgEBzhhLENKFSi by jjLitke@wandering.shop
2025-07-25T13:22:04Z
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@futurebird I used to try to push the idea of the USA’s health insurance system as anti-business because it makes businesses responsible for providing healthcare. But I couldn’t ever generate enthusiasm, which I suspect is because progressives don’t like the pro-business angle. I still think it’d be such a great counter to right wing arguments!
(DIR) Post #AwUdZxbanx5ci2Th6e by jwcph@helvede.net
2025-07-25T13:29:21Z
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@futurebird I agree & I would argue that we should (also) take back some of the topics that have been unjustly monopolized by the right. Even good faith righties (!?) will respond to everything with some variation of "but none of it works without the economy!", on the assumption that that's what the right is good at - but it's not. We've ample proof that the left is just as good or better at creating a stable, thriving economy. Also, the same re. law & justice.
(DIR) Post #AwUeAgQJeK1U8RiL9k by blueorchestra@mastodon.social
2025-07-25T13:36:00Z
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@futurebird When you say "Left" do you mean the actual Left-wing of the political spectrum or do you mean liberals who are Center (at best), Center-Right (most often), or just Right (at worst)?
(DIR) Post #AwUelVv5fG9sH0feaG by australopithecus@mastodon.social
2025-07-25T13:42:39Z
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@futurebird I think one of the underlying issues is that the left has an education bias, so to speak, and in academia we're all taught to disdain rhetorical arguments in favor of sound logic. This is appropriate in academia, but as you say doesn't work in situ.
(DIR) Post #AwUf82gWWdZyGNbFKa by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-07-25T13:46:47Z
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@jjLitke Employer health insurance is elitist. It creates a perceived gap in standards of care and access between professionals with jobs that sponsor insurance and "everyone else."Moreover people are scared of ending up in the bin with everyone else. This fear has been a huge obstacle to single payer.Business *benefit* from this since offering insurance can be less expensive for them than simply raising wages. It's not as great for smaller businesses but they don't drive policy.
(DIR) Post #AwUfb0omXrKws5HCYC by BoysenberryCider@mastodon.social
2025-07-25T13:51:40Z
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@futurebird Two key groups on the right have been tilling the fields and sowing seeds for 40 years - hardcore evangelicals have been building political power, population, and a separate education system. Billionaires have been accumulating resources, eroding checks and capturing institutions. The wave they're riding has been building for a long time.We need philosophies of education, media and culture to prepare a renaissance 20 years from now, as well as fighting today's battles.
(DIR) Post #AwUhYpUjsEAH58zLQe by carapace@mastodon.social
2025-07-25T14:13:56Z
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@futurebirdWe don't want that kind of relationship with ourselves?Attempting to persuade someone of something without their explicit consent is a form of coercion.
(DIR) Post #AwUhqlkSXdTEfutbJg by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-07-25T14:17:15Z
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@carapace "Attempting to persuade someone of something without their explicit consent is a form of coercion."This doesn't make sense to me. How or why would someone ever give such "consent?" I think consent is the wrong framework.
(DIR) Post #AwUiolsDCo1yRD8Jrk by carapace@mastodon.social
2025-07-25T14:28:04Z
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@futurebird Sorry, that was kind of cryptic, I was going for brevity.I'm finding it difficult to summarize...We want a democracy where people are working together in good faith, and it seems to me that the attitude or stance of the propagandist is contrary to that, regardless of the content of the propaganda.
(DIR) Post #AwUj4fQIxFZV4BexG4 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-07-25T14:30:58Z
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@carapace The correctness of the content is what should matter, though. Consider posters at a worksite that tell you to ALWAYS put on your hard hat. That's safety propaganda. We could find nuances to the "issue of hard hats" and come up with exceptions and reasons why it's not "always" the best idea. But it's the best idea so frequently, and the nuance muddies the water so I think most people would think it would be malpractice not to simply propagandize such a message.
(DIR) Post #AwUjujlA4qHBZeFBvU by carapace@mastodon.social
2025-07-25T14:40:21Z
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@futurebird I don't know if that's a good example. Construction workers are presumably on board with not getting head injuries, so that's more like a reminder than a convincer. Don't they fire people for not wearing hard hats on site? (I would.)
(DIR) Post #AwUn8r2W6hBI4Kmk08 by JoBlakely@mastodon.social
2025-07-25T15:16:29Z
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@futurebird Best known practices should be the standard.
(DIR) Post #AwUoUFPembc9hFNDqS by BernieDoesIt@mstdn.social
2025-07-25T15:31:34Z
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@futurebird @RolloTreadway I had someone I follow say to me that to prevent racist fascists from coming to power in the US again we need to execute all the members of a large group of people that includes me and my children. That's nonsense. My children are clearly not the problem.
(DIR) Post #AwUw42zZ8k5lHJBg9o by nobody@mastodon.acm.org
2025-07-25T16:56:34Z
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@futurebirdI'd put autonomy first, and have "bodily autonomy" and "right to exist" (just as the right _not_ to exist) as subdivisions. The 3 is highly non-obvious to me. Goes to show how it's easier to be together against than together for
(DIR) Post #AwUwQjuaFL7alIg4ES by cjpaloma@mas.to
2025-07-25T17:00:34Z
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@futurebird I think differences in how people deal with with perceived authority ALSO plays a part in the -ease- by which these propaganda and advertising campaigns work on some folks, and not others.People on the left -tend to- look at information and do our own smell tests…IOW: internally think to ourselves: does this make sense?People on the right -tend to- look at who said it- a wealthy white male christian? they then "think" it's probably true.IMO: it's not a trivial difference
(DIR) Post #AwUwdiihzIwIpaJRz6 by mitch@hoagie.cloud
2025-07-25T17:02:47Z
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@futurebird agreed re: 'reality having a left-wing bias' being a real weasel phrase.if you ask me, one of the best pieces of media out there working to convince people in a way that is fun and engaging is 'Some More News.'
(DIR) Post #AwUxSYHOZ5xFDdm91E by audunmb@todon.nl
2025-07-25T17:12:06Z
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@futurebird historically the organized left invented propaganda (both the concept and the actual term) and built large organizations with it. I think the problem is that the left (even among leftist) is confused with liberalism and liberals abhor both propaganda and organizations. The actual left creates propaganda and doesn't shy away from it, but as liberal thought has hegemony in the leftist mainstream, you get this idea of propaganda being problematic. I guess this is an even larger issue in the US where 'liberal' somehow confusingly means leftwing.
(DIR) Post #AwUxq8fjQO7GkUPDvc by BluesHarp@musicians.today
2025-07-25T17:16:22Z
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@futurebird The problem with propaganda is that it is based on lies. And I don't want to go down that road. Tell the damn truth already!
(DIR) Post #AwUxzHRUBcceYV6LwW by BluesHarp@musicians.today
2025-07-25T17:18:02Z
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@futurebird Lies will eventually fail. They can only be believed for so long and then the house of cards simply collapses on itself.
(DIR) Post #AwUzaB8Mhgr3evJfTU by springdiesel@spore.social
2025-07-25T17:35:53Z
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@futurebird Maybe also what exactly science is?A lot of people think science = technology. Or science = chemicals. Or science = aliens and space. Or whatever.Folks don't seem to realize that science = the exercise of the scientific method = figuring stuff out.People think figuring stuff out and science are two completely different things.
(DIR) Post #AwV1UUdVTv5sJbIbrs by Canageek@wandering.shop
2025-07-25T17:57:17Z
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@futurebird Reminds me if something someone on CBC radio said a while ago, who had been studying people's backgrounds before they go into politics. People on the left take classes that they will think help them be good leaders, history and law and suchPeople on the right ficus winning elections and take marketing classes
(DIR) Post #AwV1eD8VOvaUw4QrlQ by jredlund@social.linux.pizza
2025-07-25T17:59:01Z
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@futurebird Even Aristotle admitted that most audiences do not have the patience or knowledge to follow a tightly reasoned chain of logic. That is why we need rhetoric to defend the truth. Pathos is the most powerful persuader of all. Kenneth Burke tended to use "propaganda" as a pretty close synonym for "advertising."
(DIR) Post #AwV5qNe6YH1mp3GrQG by gimulnautti@mastodon.green
2025-07-25T18:46:03Z
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@futurebird Actually..Reality isn’t something any person experiences, ever. People experience experiences produced by their brains.Those experiences are entirely learned, and the meaning they experience is completely dependent on how other people interacted with them and gave meaning to those experiences.When they grow up, people start to tell stories about what their experience means, while very curious about what others experience.Reality? No. Stories we tell ourselves.
(DIR) Post #AwVCTCI9Ict6cvtTxg by kemotep@mastodo.neoliber.al
2025-07-25T20:00:16Z
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@futurebird Due Process. Without Due Process we don’t have rule of law. Without Rule of Law, no one’s rights are guaranteed or protected. We can’t effectively regulate. Everyone needs Due Process. Only giving due process to the “good guys” is not good because due process is how we know if someone is a good guy or not beyond vibes.Teri Kanefield (@Teri_Kanefield) has several books and blogs on this, if you haven’t checked out you should.https://terikanefield.com/
(DIR) Post #AwVMexYmtcjPxDvLPs by KikoKate@mstdn.party
2025-07-25T21:54:28Z
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@futurebird Concur.
(DIR) Post #AwW0lSqtSjAguP37KK by EllisDee@wolfgirl.bar
2025-07-26T05:23:57.917921Z
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@futurebird Sir and or madam what you made in these posts wasn't anywhere close to being a rational or coherent thought and I am now dumber for having read itMay god help your soul
(DIR) Post #AwW8B1zwcvSApZQAkq by burnitdown@beige.party
2025-07-26T06:46:55Z
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@futurebird i just don't think it's as much a question of funding things as it is working with what's available. the "big cloud of issues" problem goes away when we start looking at the fundamental processes and systems which allow the problems to continue. instead of swatting mosquitoes with holier than thou nonsense, identify the role of white supremacy, enclosure of the commons, prisons, the wage system, colonialism, etc. and what the ongoing movements against these systems of violence are working to achieve, what they have already done. this is why i say, "build movements, not elections". movements are made of people working together with what they have to build a better world. they aren't trying to make a death machine do something it was never built for. they see that it is a death machine and it has got to be destroyed. the gears of war must be made into bicycle parts!
(DIR) Post #AwWB6idmxGCFV0h2h6 by burnitdown@beige.party
2025-07-26T07:19:45Z
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@futurebird @passenger it's why the principals of guerilla warfare are important. if the enemy is too powerful to attack head-on, undermine them, demoralise them, pick them apart until there's nothing left, by any means necessary. unions and co-ops are the glue that can hold together and strengthen against forces that shatter when exposed to truth. the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. said "those who love peace must learn to organise as effectively as those who love war." capitalism is a war on the working class. that is the class war, which must be abolished.
(DIR) Post #AwWPFnxrveJDyXJQBs by tony@toot.hoyle.me.uk
2025-07-26T09:58:15Z
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@futurebird That's kind of https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rightsBut over the years that idea got stuck in the weeds and it largely ignored.
(DIR) Post #AwWQAlZXUpV53t5rdI by a_cubed@mastodon.social
2025-07-26T10:00:05Z
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@alter_kaker @futurebird For the same reason you don't put scarce electoral resources into deep red R+25 districts trying to be a lo e liberal voice in a deep conservative setting is like trying to hold back the tide alone. Moving to reddish purple and engaging is more effective and provides like-minded folks for some of your socialising.
(DIR) Post #AwWQAmIYnRVrJW9oo4 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-07-26T10:08:33Z
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@a_cubed @alter_kaker I think it depends on how low the turn out is in your so-called R+25There isn't really any such thing as a "red district" or a "blue district" these designations depend largely on the same small subset of the population voting and the same subset of the population not voting.
(DIR) Post #AwWVuMEaX9gPZLqwMq by ChemicalEyeGuy@mstdn.science
2025-07-26T11:12:47Z
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@futurebird The center *is* being lost. But #Americans have always had the ability to hold it. They just have to break old (bad) habits that the Founding Fathers told us to, and #PrimaryFromTheCenter.“Chemical Eye on Independent’s Day” http://www.sitnews.us/MacDougall/070306_macdougall.htmlNote: #Fascists in #USpol know this obstacle to their #Project2025 and have been trying to ban #OpenPrimaries in #RedStates.#Resist intelligently. Use #MATH.
(DIR) Post #AwWcFNaPIma5ZISvrc by MisuseCase@twit.social
2025-07-26T12:23:51Z
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@futurebird @a_cubed @alter_kaker Also the GOP got to where it is today by investing in what were once “solid blue” areas. Flipping a district may be a long-term investment.
(DIR) Post #AwWjtMZRCG2xgH1bn6 by mschfr@mastodon.social
2025-07-26T13:49:31Z
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@futurebird And even if people are starting to learn, starting to understand, that won't help. Even if the propaganda works only for a few years and people learned that vaccination is helpful the hard way, there are new people growing up, coming into contact with the propaganda and the circle starts again.
(DIR) Post #AwWm1CChp6i9kpFsC8 by johnzajac@dice.camp
2025-07-26T14:13:17Z
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@futurebird Propaganda is "media made to define", not to persuade. It can deceive or illuminate, but it's purpose is not to convince others of its point of view; it's purpose is to shift the entire narrative framing of an issue, so that specific arguments to persuade can be more effective. You don't make a film that says "trans people shouldn't exist", you make a film about the poor, blonde, white 17-year-old girl who lost the medal to the big, manly 17-year-old MTF trans woman.
(DIR) Post #AwWrekstJdZwNVfZmC by drahardja@sfba.social
2025-07-26T15:16:31Z
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@futurebird “Propaganda” is another term for “Marketing”—and the left sucks at marketing.We need to hire marketing experts.
(DIR) Post #AwWsEaiQbHTzGVraxU by ApostateEnglishman@mastodon.world
2025-07-26T15:22:59Z
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@futurebird On point (1), worth adding that the *culture* of scientific communities also ensures that, generally speaking, not only scientific knowledge but also its methodologies are undergoing continual improvement over time.Not particularly relevant to your points, but it's something that interests me in the context of the current promotion of anti-science counter-cultures, which mainly concern themselves with the past *failings* of science rather than how they can be avoided in future.
(DIR) Post #AwWuUlFXP1PgTgBk2a by Rycaut@mastodon.social
2025-07-26T15:48:19Z
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@futurebird Participant Media (https://participant.com) is an example of a largely Left leaning big scale media production firm (they produce films with social impact while managing to win multiple Oscars for best picture as well as best documentary along the way). Each film they produce they tie to partnerships with key NGOs and non profits. All good stuff. But also they are still 20+ years later an unusual exception. And their model isn’t suited for ongoing everyday media or smaller scale
(DIR) Post #AwXF0XpgotcbDRWzVw by lienrag@mastodon.tedomum.net
2025-07-26T19:38:06Z
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@futurebird You're basically describing "education".
(DIR) Post #AwbKfRGvfPHkV09hdA by impermanen_@zirk.us
2025-07-28T19:00:24Z
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@futurebird it seems like the far right has done a great job of turning these same liberal talking points into “common sense” positions that translate in the minds of those who listen to them into virulent racism and patriarchy. The scientific method becomes support for eugenics and anti-vaccine conspiracy theories. The right to exist becomes claims of white genocide and the erasure of white heritage. Intrinsic value and bodily autonomy become “babies lives matter”.
(DIR) Post #AwbKfZMXaQWlaiqIUK by impermanen_@zirk.us
2025-07-28T19:00:25Z
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As long as the facts can be sufficiently distorted in popular media and not contradicted in *personal* experience, these “non-negotiable” principles can cut either way. People can stay wrong about how the principles are being violated and by whom.I think this is why the right is so sharply focused on resegregating people in schools and workplaces and the rest of public life: to prevent people from having any positive experiences with folks different from them and crank up the fear.
(DIR) Post #AwsGHoaGALkGMj5ddA by Fat_Farang@mastodon.social
2025-08-05T23:01:23Z
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@futurebird I think the seven tenets of The Satanic Church covers this nicely. Atheist have been giving some thought to core value for quite some time. https://faq.satanicministry.com/ask/what-are-the-seven-tenets/