Post Avbau4qepzCdhsASbg by jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu
(DIR) More posts by jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu
(DIR) Post #AvXpvFn8MG0wcFhO5I by rakoo@blah.rako.space
2025-06-25T16:09:03.184901Z
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@tchambers @benpateI suppose it's https://codeberg.org/fediverse/fep/src/branch/main/fep/3b86/fep-3b86.md and I see it as a move away from activitypub: to me the central API seems to be activitystreams object sent in an inbox. This extension proposes platform specific changes _outside_ activitystreamsCan template point to AS objects to be filled ?
(DIR) Post #AvXpvGw26ej8A8s0au by benpate@mastodon.social
2025-06-25T18:16:02Z
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I understand wanting to bundle things into AP. Let’s fix the core and not abandon it, right?But the use case here isn’t in ActivityPub. It happens when I’m visiting a website OUTSIDE of my home server. It’s how we see 90% of the internet.So building this feature into AS doesn’t make sense.These interactions need to tie more deeply into Fediverse servers in the same way that the FB “like” button does. That’s what FEP-3b86 does.@rakoo @tchambers
(DIR) Post #AvXpvHxqHPlhM2iy3M by rakoo@blah.rako.space
2025-06-26T07:52:14.252104Z
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@benpate I do believe that it's part of ActivityPub, because that's exactly the usecase: there's an object you're currently seeing and you want to interact with it.I'm no AP dev, I have no experience at all, only armchair ideas so my goal isn't to say what you're doing is bad; quite the contrary, you're building stuff so you'ro certainly more relevant ! I'm just commenting on the sidelines.The thing I like about the idea of AP is that it is about manipulation and exchange of data structures, whereas the APIs are about RPCs. I like that because it makes my data more portable, less dependent on an implementation or an instance.What I would love to see is the AP concept more widespread for interacting:- when I see content I want to interact with, my user agent can pick the object url in the http headers and/or in a <link> tag if it's presented in an html document- my user-agent allows me to send AP activities, optionally linking to object urlsThis obviously requires changes in the browser (which is where Mozilla should put its brain but that's another discussion), but can be first done in an extension. Bonus: it works for *all* AP implementations@tchambers
(DIR) Post #AvXpvIrUwUHu8elPns by benpate@mastodon.social
2025-06-26T12:40:03Z
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Yes, if browsers understood ActivityPub then the whole world would change. I’d love that.We’d need everyone on board, but Ms, Apple, and Google might follow if Mozilla and Vivaldi proved it would work.That would require a working C2S API.And all of that is years away 😩I think we get there with incremental, evolutionary steps that prove the Fediverse is viable, and attract more *non techies* to the community.@rakoo @tchambers
(DIR) Post #AvXpvYUKqNGabS38vA by jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu
2025-06-26T13:15:23Z
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@Ben Pate 🤘🏻 In the words of a diaspora* developer, if Mozilla and Vivaldi "implemented ActivityPub", they'd actually "implement Mastodon". That'd mean catching more users with less effort than implementing vanilla ActivityPub and implementing features that Mastodon doesn't have. Besides, both used to have or still have a Mastodon server, but they don't seem to be aware that there's a Fediverse beyond Mastodon, much less what it's like and how it works.In fact, they wouldn't even implement the ActivityPub C2S API at all. They'd implement the Mastodon client API and only the Mastodon client API.CC: @rakoo @Tim Chambers#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #ActivityPub #Mastodon #MastodonAPI
(DIR) Post #AvXpvaJ45FRKF4nAdE by benpate@mastodon.social
2025-06-26T13:35:34Z
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Yeah, probably, maybe, possibly, idk. It’s all speculation in the absence of a C2S API that developers want to use. I don’t think I could say what any browser maker might do.. esp if they see AP as a threat to their moats.I want to focus on what WE can do right now. Move the ecosystem forward. Maybe in a few years the W3C will catch up C2S and we can all build to that, too.But we can’t wait for that before we fix the UX that Tim laid out. @jupiter_rowland
(DIR) Post #AvXpvayXb2cIJiCIHQ by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-06-27T04:39:30Z
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@benpate > It’s all speculation in the absence of a C2S API that developers want to useThe main reason devs haven't wanted to use the C2S API in the AP spec is network effect. Clients devs don't want to use it because Mastodon doesn't, and servers devs don't want to use it because their services wouldn't work with all the clients following the Mastodon API.But there are a bunch of projects now implementing AP C2S. I'm sure I've seen a list somewhere, maybe on SocialHub?@jupiter_rowland
(DIR) Post #AvXrcO5FVHO0jwItFI by benpate@mastodon.social
2025-06-27T04:58:38Z
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@smallcirclesJust posted this in another part of the discussion — damn that Mastodon UX 😝 — Is this what you meant? https://codeberg.org/fediverse/delightful-fediverse-experience/issues/130 @strypey @jupiter_rowland
(DIR) Post #AvZrLFgHsb3G4aNRKq by jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu
2025-06-27T07:20:52Z
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@Strypey The main reason devs haven't wanted to use the C2S API in the AP spec is network effect. Clients devs don't want to use it because Mastodon doesn't, and servers devs don't want to use it because their services wouldn't work with all the clients following the Mastodon API.It's actually tempting to imagine a vicious circle here: If almost everything has the Mastodon client API implemented, it isn't worth developing dedicated client apps that also cover other servers' extra features.Instead, the reason why all kinds of server applications have the Mastodon client API implemented is because they absolutely need some phone apps that work with them. Just look around the Fediverse. Almost everyone is exclusively on phones nowadays. And especially iPhone users wouldn't touch a Web browser with a 10-foot barge pole if they don't absolutely have to, so expecting them to use the Web UI means you're stuck in a bubble or a time where smartphones are still a gimmick.That's why even Friendica has implemented the Mastodon client API. I mean, Mastodon and Friendica are very different, and the Mastodon client API only covers a small fraction of what Friendica can do. It actually doesn't cover some critical everyday features.At the same time, there's little to no incentive for those who can develop mobile apps to make apps for anything that isn't Mastodon. Many start working on Fediverse apps at a point when they still believe the Fediverse is only Mastodon. Or if they don't, at least they've never heard of Pleroma and its family, Misskey and its family, Friendica and its family (where Hubzilla would require a wholly different app than Friendica, and (streams) and Forte would require a wholly different app than both) etc. Or they genuinely think that developing the umpteenth iPhone app for Mastodon is worth the effort more than developing the first stable dedicated iPhone app for Friendica. It's a miracle that stuff like Aria for the *key family exists.It seems like of all the server apps that don't do *blogging (purist long-form blogging stuff like WriteFreely excluded), Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte are the only ones that don't have the Mastodon client API implemented. And I can't see them do it. For one, their devs steer clear of all proprietary, non-standard Mastodon technology. But other than that, these three are even less like Mastodon than Friendica, and they work even less like Mastodon. Even using a Mastodon app for stuff like basic posting is out of question because it pretty much requires access to the per-post permission settings, something that Mastodon doesn't have implemented, and therefore, neither do the apps for it.Now, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte can be installed as so-called Progressive Web Apps. But only Hubzilla veterans ever do that, and that's for three reasons: One, next to nobody has ever heard of the very concept of PWAs. Two, all that people know is installing apps from the Apple App Store and the Google Play Store. And three, people want native mobile interfaces in the style of whatever phone they use. It doesn't matter how well the Web UIs of these three adapt to mobile screens, especially since 90% of all phone users have totally forgotten that you can rotate a phone sideways.Hubzilla actually has its own client API, and I think (streams) and forte have their own one, too. But nobody has ever even only tried to build a native mobile app for either of them. Hubzilla's devs even have to admit that they don't know how well Hubzilla's client API works because there has literally never been a sufficiently-featured counterpart to test it against. All there is is an extremely basic Android app built by one of them that's available as a download somewhere, and all it can do is send very basic posts, I think, even only at your default settings. It's just a proof of concept.The ActivityPub C2S API is just as untested.#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #MastodonAPI #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #ActivityPub #API #ClientAPI #MastodonAPI
(DIR) Post #AvZrLHz9JRKNDfDX0q by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-06-28T04:04:44Z
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@jupiter_rowland > The ActivityPub C2S API is just as untestedThat was absolutely true 5 years ago. But it's getting less true all the time. As I say, there are a number of server and app projects with implementations now. Which is producing a lot of feedback about how to improve it for a future iteration of the AP spec.
(DIR) Post #AvZrgueyiSzXFR5rFY by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-06-28T04:08:53Z
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People keep pointing out the UX fail of expecting people to have multiple accounts to use all the different fedi services. But that wouldn't be true if every #AP app and server used a general purpose #C2S API, defined in the AP spec (whether the existing one or not).Then we could, for example, use a Mastodon account to login to a PeerTube service to browse and post videos. Or use a PT account to login to a Mastodon service to browse and post Notes.@tchambers @rakoo @benpate @jupiter_rowland
(DIR) Post #AvZs4vVDEeuwoKyaFk by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-06-28T04:13:17Z
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@benpate > Is this what you meant?That's the one, thanks : )@smallcircles @jupiter_rowland
(DIR) Post #AvbXFhD10d8owcg7lo by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-06-28T23:29:17Z
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@tchambers> Has anyone even got an alpha version of a C2S app running?There's over a dozen implementations now;https://codeberg.org/fediverse/delightful-fediverse-experience/issues/130#HatTip to @smallcircles for compiling this list, and @benpate for reminding me where he keeps it : )@rakoo @jupiter_rowland
(DIR) Post #Avbau4qepzCdhsASbg by jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu
2025-06-28T08:06:37Z
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@Strypey Locally writing content to the database of an ActivityPub-based server will inevitably require a local user account on that very server.I mean, we already have OpenWebAuth magic sign-on which was invented by @Mike Macgirvin ?️ for Hubzilla in 2017, and which also has full implementations in his later server applications (streams) and Forte and a client-side implementation on Mike's first project, Friendica. But without an actual account on another server, OpenWebAuth can only authenticate you on that other server as a guest and grant you certain guest permissions. It does not give you all the powers of a local user, at least not without a local account.Also, if you want to actually log in on another server, you will inevitably need local login credentials on that server. Which means that a user account with these login credentials must be created prior to you logging in on that server so that that server knows your login name and your password. Even if you want to use something like OAuth, that server will still require to know your credentials. They will have to be in that server's database before you can successfully log in.A server cannot and will not authenticate you against credentials in a wholly different remote server's database. What you and many other Fediverse users dream of can only be solved in two ways and both only theoretically because, in practice, they are just as impossible or at least very unfeasible.Either if you register an account on one Fediverse server, that account with the exact same credentials is simultaneously created on literally all other Fediverse servers, and on Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte, you also automatically get a channel along with that account. This also means that each Fediverse server that's installed and spun up for the first time will immediately have to create tens of millions of accounts so that everyone all over the Fediverse automatically has login credentials on that server. I guess it should be clear that this is impossible, also because this requires a) a centralised list of absolutely all Fediverse accounts and identities and b) a centralised list of all Fediverse servers to be hard-coded into every last instance of every last Fediverse server out there.Now, I keep reading stuff like, "But I don't want to use all Fediverse servers!" No, but you want to be able to use any Fediverse server. And then you will have to have an account there. How is the Fediverse supposed to know in advance which servers you will visit this year, the next two years, five years, ten years so that accounts can be automatically created for you exactly there and nowhere else?See? And that's why, if you want to be able to use any server like with a local account, every server must be prepared for it before you arrive.Or drive-by registration: You visit a Fediverse server for the first time, your active login is recognised by that Fediverse server, and an account is created for you on the fly with the exact same login credentials as where you're already logged in. That's its own can of worms.Also, it requires remote authentication. OpenWebAuth. As I've already said: This is technology that's eight years old, and that's being daily-driven right now. But: You will never have this on Mastodon. There actually is a pull request for Mastodon from two years ago that would have implemented client-side OpenWebAuth support. It was never merged. It was silently rejected by the Mastodon developers. The PR was closed in November, 2024.Some people go even further: They don't just want their login credentials wherever they go, they want their whole identity cloned to everywhere. They want all their stuff, all their posts and comments and DMs, all their followers and followed, all their settings, all their filters etc. etc. pp., they want it everywhere all the same. Like a nomadic identity (an invention by Mike from 2011, first implemented in 2012) across up to 30,000 servers.Now, you and many others on Mastodon are probably going to cry out, "YES, YES, PLEASE MAKE THIS REALITY!"But seriously: I myself have actually cloned enough Hubzilla and (streams) channels of mine in my time. None of them even had nearly as much content on them as your Mastodon account. And I can tell from a lot of personal experience that this cannot be done within a blink of an eye.Nomadic identity won't come to Mastodon anyway. Nomadic identity via ActivityPub is probably being daily-driven already. Forte has it, and it relies on it. But Mastodon will never implement it. In particular, Mastodon would rather re-invent the "nomadic identity" wheel in a way that's incompatible with what we already have than implement something made by Mike Macgirvin. Not after all the head-butting that has happened between Mike and Gargron over the years.And OpenWebAuth won't come to Mastodon either. Probably also for the same reason.CC: @Tim Chambers @rakoo @Ben Pate 🤘🏻#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #OpenWebAuth #SingleSignOn #NomadicIdentity
(DIR) Post #Avbau7DQ2Kb932pfMW by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-06-29T00:10:10Z
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@jupiter_rowland> Locally writing content to the database of an ActivityPub-based server will inevitably require a local user account on that very serverTrue, but completely missing the point. I'm not proposing to login to a PT server with a Mastodon account. Which is why I said *service*, not server. What I'm talking about is logging into a PT web app, without having to login to the PT server that's currently bundled as part of the same service.@tchambers @mikedev @rakoo
(DIR) Post #AvbbO4Ph1EoT2rrBoG by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-06-29T00:15:37Z
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@jupiter_rowland > Not after all the head-butting that has happened between Mike and Gargron over the yearsThis is the reason why Mike's tech remains marginal, even within the fediverse, even though it's brilliant. He just can't help being a dick to people, and blaming *them* for it. I've experienced this on and off for over a decade.Plus he's too busy building new toys to document his work in a way other devs can grok it without asking him questions. So ... 🤷♂️@tchambers @mikedev @rakoo
(DIR) Post #Avbdk14IKvSCwwRNGy by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-06-29T00:42:04Z
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(2/2)The fact that various aspects of Mike's work to make Zot functionality work in an AP network have now been made into FEPs is a huge step forward. It means AP devs can now figure out how to implement them from a canonical spec. They don't have to deal with Mike, and he doesn't have to deal with them. Win-win!But it might help if other people posting about Mike's work didn't throw in a handful of secondhand snark and poor-me-ism. Which is almost as alienating as getting it directly.
(DIR) Post #AvcQ880SzHUpDaDH3A by jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu
2025-06-29T07:55:50Z
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@Strypey Still, the headbutting was often justified for Mike. Unless, of course, you say that Mastodon is and has always been the one and only Fediverse gold standard and the one and only ActivityPub reference implementation.I'll give you an example: In July, 2017, Mike's Hubzilla was the very first Fediverse server software to implement ActivityPub. Mike played strictly by the rules. As Hubzilla has a character limit of over 16.7 million and supports text formatting on the same level as the best long-form blogging platforms out there, he declared Hubzilla long-form and made Hubzilla send Article-type objects. Just as the spec demands.In September, Mastodon became the second Fediverse server software to implement ActivityPub. But Gargron did not play by the rules. He only implemented a tiny subset of the protocol, namely what suited him. And he also broke it: Mastodon could display Article-type objects at their full length. But Gargron staunchly refused to implement any support for anything that goes beyond plain text. The ActivityPub spec explicitly says that Article-type objects are formatted. But Gargron wanted Mastodon to be a purist, minimalist, old-school, original-gangsta, Twitter-cloning microblogging platform. And stuff like bold type, italics, headlines, embedded in-line images or titles aren't purist, minimalist, old-school, original-gangsta, Twitter-cloning microblogging.And so Mastodon took fully formatted, long-form-blog-style posts from Hubzilla and ripped everything out that wasn't plain text. It basically defaced Hubzilla posts. That is, it had been defacing Friendica and Hubzilla posts all the same ever since it was launched. But this time, there was a spec that actually defined what Mastodon was doing as wrong. And that spec had been finalised and pronounced a W3C standard meanwhile.So Mike asked Gargron to please follow the official ActivityPub spec and make Mastodon support full HTML rendering for Article-type objects.Gargron refused. Old-skool microblogging is plain text and only plain text, full stop.This went back and forth. Eventually, Gargron presented a "solution": Mastodon now "renders" Article-type objects by showing the title and, right below, a link to the original. That is, basically not at all anymore. Of course, this meant that the vast majority of Mastodon users no longer read what came from Friendica and Hubzilla because they couldn't be bothered to open that link.Mike saw this as a direct assault against Friendica and Hubzilla and an attempt at excluding both from "the Fediverse" which was almost entirely Mastodon at that point already. So he himself had to break the spec and make Hubzilla send Note-type objects instead so that Mastodon renders them at all. It still defaces them to this day.(Friendica's solution was to send an Article-type object when a post has a title and a Note-type object when it doesn't have a title. Optionally, it can always send Note-type objects.)By the way: This very same head-butting has returned. Not between Gargron and Mike, though, but between Gargron and much bigger players. Platforms like Flipboard and Ghost have introduced ActivityPub, and they send Article-type objects just as the ActivityPub spec demands. The same goes for WordPress. And, of course, they don't send plain-text "long tweets". They send fully formatted news articles and blog posts.And now they demand Mastodon, as the biggest player in the Fediverse by user count, make their Article-type objects look just like they look at the source. They demand Mastodon not only render bold type, italics, headlines and the rest of the subset of text formatting that was introduced with Mastodon 4 in October, 2022. They also demand Mastodon show the titles and, most importantly, leave the images embedded within the articles in place, no matter how many they are.This is no longer Gargron and his devs vs a guy in the Australian outback. This is Gargron and his devs who try hard to bend the Fediverse to their will and assume supreme control over it vs the Ghost Foundation, Flipboard, Inc. and Automattic, Inc. that play strictly by the ActivityPub rules. And I dare say that Automattic, Inc. alone has more money and more market power than Mastodon gGmbH and Mastodon, Inc. combined.Mastodon has always gotten away with ignoring and breaking standards, re-inventing wheels and implying towards its religious followers that the whole Fediverse was built upon Mastodon and around Mastodon, and that everything that does things differently from Mastodon is inherently a broken add-on to Mastodon or an evil intruder. This time, they won't. And I guess they've actually taken it into consideration.CC: @Tim Chambers @rakoo#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #ActivityPub #Mastodon #Friendica #Hubzilla #WordPress #Ghost #Flipboard
(DIR) Post #AvcQ8AEMiZno7GjOzY by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-06-29T09:44:02Z
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(1/2)@jupiter_rowland > till, the headbutting was often justified for Mike. Unless, of course, you say that Mastodon is and has always been the one and only Fediverse gold standard2 things can true at the same time;1) The Mastodon project has had little respect for specs as written, and little interest in cross-project communication2) Mike is prickly and dismissive towards people trying to understand his protocols, or make suggestions about practical interoperation @tchambers @rakoo
(DIR) Post #AvcQN5CDichmqTqFZQ by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-06-29T09:46:57Z
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(2/2)You seem to be implying 2) is the cause for 1). It isn't, this is the way he behaves in general. This is what I meant by;> He just can't help being a dick to people, and blaming *them* for itThis is my last post on this, because it's an inherently circular discussion. You have a right of reply, but once you've made it, let's move on.Rather than argue about our interpretations of past miscommunication (on all sides), let's talk about practical things we can do differently in future.
(DIR) Post #AvhlXnis5tmefLrk36 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-01T23:37:45Z
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@jupiter_rowland > if you're daring, you may try zotum.netGreat, thanks. I'll go kick the tires : )
(DIR) Post #Aw4r2JKFcCvdXV9Qmm by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-13T02:57:40Z
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If any of you are still interested in the evolution of the AP C2S spec, I highly recommend Steve Bate's blog piece about his Flowz client;https://www.stevebate.net/activitypub-client-api-a-way-forward/@tchambers @smallcircles @benpate @rakoo @jupiter_rowland
(DIR) Post #Aw5BN0tbKXIBXppq88 by smallcircles@social.coop
2025-07-13T06:45:22Z
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@strypey @tchambers @benpate @rakoo @jupiter_rowland Yes, brought it to a SocialHub topic as well..https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/activitypub-client-api-a-way-forward/5410
(DIR) Post #Aw963O5KRqL3wYQ6dc by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2025-07-15T04:04:46Z
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@smallcircles > brought it to a SocialHub topic as wellMe too, as you noticed : P