Post AtraF7EpQVTCFM4kgy by Mabande@mastodon.social
(DIR) More posts by Mabande@mastodon.social
(DIR) Post #AtrLy43AcyZI4tb7js by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-05-07T18:54:05Z
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Reading about old crime cases from the 90s and even into the early 00s and police *really* believed that polygraph tests worked. Even in cases in tiny little towns they'd whip that thing out and make all kinds of wild inferences bases on what amounts to noise. Now ant then you hear about one of them being used to this day. Absolutely wild and terrifying. There are still "experts" running around who claim they can teach cops about "body language" that will tell them who is lying.
(DIR) Post #AtrM3aOFocdxpK5n5E by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-05-07T18:55:07Z
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I wonder how much these techniques and theories have inhibited police from solving crimes correctly. The damage must be massive.
(DIR) Post #AtrMVc96shDdNeNEm0 by GGMcBG@mstdn.plus
2025-05-07T19:00:06Z
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@futurebird Body language experts are like auditorium psychics who create the right paths to get where they want.
(DIR) Post #AtrMYPUMOg0izee9Pk by tlariv@mastodon.cloud
2025-05-07T19:00:39Z
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@futurebird... when they might as well have been using the lasso of truth, which was literally invented by the same guy.
(DIR) Post #AtrMZoQTANamcmUlvc by camerondotca@mastodon.nz
2025-05-07T19:00:53Z
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@futurebird Policing seems to be a field rife with received wisdom and woo.
(DIR) Post #AtrMcfwr8tfXCU0dU0 by burnitdown@beige.party
2025-05-07T19:01:21Z
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@futurebird of course they did, grifters gonna grift. they'd tell you phrenology and reading tea leaves worked too, if we didn't know better.
(DIR) Post #AtrMgPKarmueoztM3M by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-05-07T19:02:08Z
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Whenever I read "the police gave him a polygraph and he passed" in some crime history story I think "The police asked a magic 8 ball if he was telling the truth and it said 'signs point to yes'"
(DIR) Post #AtrMpbawdifzSlvSfw by kevinriggle@ioc.exchange
2025-05-07T19:03:45Z
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@futurebird in this sense the AI nonsense is only the continuation of a long tradition of these institutions refusing to accept that there are epistemological limits to what can be known by them and by what methods
(DIR) Post #AtrMqU9Boc9eecMZY8 by tantramar@mastodon.social
2025-05-07T19:03:50Z
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@futurebird It’s all a question of what you’re optimizing for.
(DIR) Post #AtrMsLKVZMXVt1Xjeq by burnitdown@beige.party
2025-05-07T19:04:16Z
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@futurebird they can also just pack evidence away to collect dust for decades instead of using it to do anything they say they do. thousands of rape kits unprocessed, in multiple PDs, in canada and USA. it's almost as if cops like protecting rapists and serial killers because if they didn't they'd have to arrest themselves.
(DIR) Post #AtrMxlAsuGUFUTcnJ2 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-05-07T19:05:16Z
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There was a brief window in the late 80s and early 90s when it wasn't that uncommon to hear about police "consulting a psychic" on missing children's cases. I understand the desperation and the "who cares if it can do SOMETHING" of it all... but, the kind of person who would claim to be able to help in that way is NOT someone you want around!They are delusional at best and a kind of criminal-conman themselves at worst.
(DIR) Post #AtrN1HLNl4Pq8ADFw0 by darkling@mstdn.social
2025-05-07T19:05:52Z
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@futurebird Forensics were full of this sort of thing, too.Yeah, sure, you can match a bullet's scratch marks against ones fired from a particular gun, but does the matching also reject bullets fired from a different gun of the same model?
(DIR) Post #AtrN4WXNj2Re7aNB2m by mjj@mstdn.dk
2025-05-07T19:06:26Z
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@futurebird I always thought that if it reports a physical response to not telling the truth, the one who can pass it the best is a completely gone psychopath.
(DIR) Post #AtrN8UzZPfA6UFSA8O by Smoljaguar@spacey.space
2025-05-07T19:07:09Z
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@futurebird even forensic methods which appear to be more scientific often have structural issues: https://www.sciencenews.org/article/investigating-crime-science-forensics
(DIR) Post #AtrNCFozl69CavIVV2 by troublewithwords@wandering.shop
2025-05-07T19:07:10Z
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@futurebird Polygraphs are still very popular with police and other security folks who apply them to prospective hires.
(DIR) Post #AtrNNWG4zGYGl3Kzce by morten_skaaning@mastodon.gamedev.place
2025-05-07T19:09:52Z
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@futurebird like when you have a medical problem, you don't want to rush to a treatment because the wrong treatment will send you down a rabbit hole, which also excludes the *right* treatment because now you're trying to deal with side effects of the wrong treatment.
(DIR) Post #AtrNWbK7WZJD4cYfaK by jmjm@mstdn.social
2025-05-07T19:11:29Z
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@futurebird It is. DNA evidence is much more reliable, and we are learning that all sorts of things were unreliable: lie detectors, fingerprints, expert witnesses, eye witnesses...https://innocenceproject.org/
(DIR) Post #AtrNrC2uhVJel3KSYa by brhfl@digipres.club
2025-05-07T19:15:15Z
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@futurebird i am, apparently, distantly related to a psychic that was called in to ‘assist’ with the patricia hearst case. which was kind of a lot of disappointment to learn all at once 🙄
(DIR) Post #AtrO1lWfdrJBh1HyNM by peterbutler@mas.to
2025-05-07T19:17:10Z
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@futurebird I think they still believe in them and still use them. Absolutely nutshttps://euroweeklynews.com/2025/05/04/us-doj-and-cia-confirm-psychics-help-police-solve-crimes/
(DIR) Post #AtrOFph6wNmqfusciG by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-05-07T19:19:44Z
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@peterbutler A person who claims to be psychic is either self-deluded and in a way that inflates their own importance OR they are a liar. There are no other kinds of "psychics" ... either conmen, or people with a tenuous grip on reality. I don't see what either could possibly offer if you are trying to solve an urgent and difficult problem.
(DIR) Post #AtrOKaC7znHs3FeXsO by waitworry@sakurajima.moe
2025-05-07T19:20:33Z
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@futurebird i mean i think the police probably don't care if these things are accurate they just want convictions because it makes them look good
(DIR) Post #AtrOQfimMQPavgpRbs by troublewithwords@wandering.shop
2025-05-07T19:20:05Z
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@dalias @futurebird I know that the Secret Service is one of those that already do polygraphs on their own employees. The gov already has the equipment and "expertise".
(DIR) Post #AtrOQgNBwAjox1jibI by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-05-07T19:21:39Z
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@troublewithwords @dalias Witch dunking level thinking.
(DIR) Post #AtrOukFs4KRFg6eByi by VirginiaHolloway@urbanists.social
2025-05-07T19:27:05Z
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@futurebird @troublewithwords @dalias In my timeline right now is a story about DHS using polygraphs to look for people leaking information to the media. I think @GottaLaff posted it.
(DIR) Post #AtrPjeheTDttEBuwRU by dougiec3@libretooth.gr
2025-05-07T19:35:28Z
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@futurebird There are certainly a few current movies and streaming shows that feature polygraphs.
(DIR) Post #AtrPodKyyWMyRMghVY by Kiloku@burnthis.town
2025-05-07T19:37:04Z
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@futurebird I'm certain right now there are plenty of "AI investigation assistants" being developed and deployed for police to use and that amounts to a reskinned and glorified ChatGPT, and they'll take that things words as gospel.
(DIR) Post #AtrQ7JMnRxss0KRV6e by llewelly@sauropods.win
2025-05-07T19:40:36Z
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@futurebird see also: fingerprints and bitemarks. Also useless for crimesolving. But honestly, cops are fascists, and if they have a technique that works, they'll use it to imprison good people far more often than bad people. We're better off if their crap doesn't work. And in that light, modern DNA tech in the hands of a fascist government is terrifying.
(DIR) Post #AtrQepodpGruCRS50S by jwcph@helvede.net
2025-05-07T19:46:37Z
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@futurebird I knew somebody once who took a course in "spotting falsehoods" in text & visual media & immediately went on to accuse a man of molesting his own children based on absolutely no evidence whatsoever. I think she believed in her own bullshit 😱 how deluded do you have to be to think THAT is a reasonable approach to reality?
(DIR) Post #AtrQjc5uGmYb5ho30q by hosford42@techhub.social
2025-05-07T19:47:30Z
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@futurebird This one hits home especially hard for autistic folks. Our body language and eye contact don't look like other people's, which is basically all they're looking for with these methods: anything out of the ordinary. Can't tell you the number of times my dad got mad at me for not making eye contact and assuming it meant I was being dishonest when I was not. Guess what being terrified of authority mistaking your body language for deceptiveness does to your body language... It makes it look like your nervous or hiding something. Catch 22.
(DIR) Post #AtrR1yw25SQt8uwkFs by noodlemaz@med-mastodon.com
2025-05-07T19:50:48Z
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@futurebird lots of US PDs use them, I think. There was a good twitter account ages ago, specifically dedicated to exposing polygraph fraud.Also all those talk shows, US and UK, that used them in the 90s to fucking ruin people's lives, they have a lot to answer for
(DIR) Post #AtrROTwdTSndgkxQMy by VATVSLPR@c.im
2025-05-07T19:54:50Z
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@futurebird There's a reason the Supreme Court instituted the Daubert standard. The courts still accept a distressing amount of pseudoscience masquerading as forensic evidence despite rules designed to keep it out.
(DIR) Post #AtrSMSeTPV2J3O3vt2 by KanaMauna@sauropods.win
2025-05-07T20:05:44Z
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@futurebird But that fits in nicely with the time period of the Satanic Panic.
(DIR) Post #AtrSPwy79L5fwqufUO by cainmark@mstdn.social
2025-05-07T20:06:19Z
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@futurebird @peterbutler Some people are really good at "cold reading" and mistakenly attribute it to psychic phenomena. That's what I suspect happens in successful cases.
(DIR) Post #AtrSiBlor8HB4ErJqa by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-05-07T20:09:41Z
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@KanaMauna Gotta love being panicked about all that stuff AND running to psychics. But I guess it makes sense.
(DIR) Post #AtrVAyBAfMeTDnZJPE by fkaOctaviaKeats@wandering.shop
2025-05-07T20:36:57Z
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@futurebird Psychics + astrologers were validated by President Reagan's spouse/ administration publicizing in 1980s too
(DIR) Post #AtrVONys31Al0aDEkC by fkaOctaviaKeats@wandering.shop
2025-05-07T20:38:41Z
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@futurebird People still think torture +/ " advanced interrogation" yield valid actionable results, too.The veneer of validity + respectability is thick.
(DIR) Post #AtrVQv5huovaHFcPhI by fkaOctaviaKeats@wandering.shop
2025-05-07T20:40:06Z
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@futurebird Underfunding, prejudice, all biases conscious + unconscious, + fiefdom mentality do their worst already.
(DIR) Post #AtrWkdjwEhEmD3P4k4 by raganwald@social.bau-ha.us
2025-05-07T20:52:09Z
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@fluffy @futurebird Prediction: We will see prosecutors trotting out "evidence" that AI thinks someone is guilty.Because—as with polygraphs—unless prevented from doing so, prosecutors are more interested whether a thing will convince a jury than they are whether it is actually factual.And AI is optimized for verisimilitude, not for truth.
(DIR) Post #Atra7jF0FVTRnGdQNU by ginaintheburg@mastodon.world
2025-05-07T21:32:39Z
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@futurebird Exactly. So-called lie detectors are very unreliable and can be easily fooled, which notorious spy Aldrich Ames knew full well:Bloomberg: https://youtu.be/N3fHkCFxgQQ?si=VWfLOntVYdCnmgoHHow to beat a lie detector test: https://www.thoughtco.com/how-to-pass-a-lie-detector-test-4150683#:~:text=Polygraph%20tests%20analyze%20physical%20reactions,but%20not%20ensuring%20a%20pass.Adam Ruins Everything: https://youtu.be/v1-2K_pCWmI?si=h8YucNofKztT-YwWAldrich Ames (see "Arrest" heading):https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldrich_Ames
(DIR) Post #AtraF7EpQVTCFM4kgy by Mabande@mastodon.social
2025-05-07T21:34:02Z
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@futurebird In Sweden in the eighties the Big Thing was Freudian Psychoanalysis (repressed memories 'n' such), which produced the nation's most prolific serial killer (he claimed he murdered 18 people—though some were found to be alive and others he had an airtight alibi for, in spite of him confessing while doped up and being asked extremely leading questions. 15 years he was freed of all those charges), and a bunch of other high-profile, currently unsolved, murder cases.They flubbed so hard.
(DIR) Post #Atrohvbh9HUpvgP7pI by ferrix@mastodon.online
2025-05-08T00:16:06Z
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@futurebird Are they still using "micro expressions" too? Can't wait for AI dowsing rods or whatever is next
(DIR) Post #AtrqAGUFDAYKkWzlKK by tuban_muzuru@ohai.social
2025-05-08T00:32:25Z
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@futurebird I've had three polygraph tests.
(DIR) Post #AtrrJTuokm7mxSNpCa by jhavok@mastodon.social
2025-05-08T00:45:18Z
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@futurebird Microexpressions. They always tell you that the person you suspected is guilty.
(DIR) Post #AtrvQ9NntHrH7aNPwe by billseitz@toolsforthought.social
2025-05-08T01:31:19Z
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@futurebird what until you hear about ballistics and hair analysis... and fingerprintshttps://www.bostonreview.net/articles/nathan-robinson-forensic-pseudoscience-criminal-justice/
(DIR) Post #Ats1rygLrwsvlahkvo by guyjantic@infosec.exchange
2025-05-08T02:43:35Z
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@futurebird Ooh! I know things about this!You probably already know that the psychologist who helped invent the polygraph was super into BDSM, lived in a threesome, created Wonder Woman (modeled on his nanny, the 3rd member of said threesome), and might have been a good deal less influential in the Wonder Woman thing than his high-powered corporate attorney wife. That's pretty much old hat, now.The polygraph measures autonomic arousal, so it can be a lie detector if used in certain ways, it just sucks as it's been used by cops. ("Certain ways" = Guilty Knowledge Test)The polygraph actually has a pretty solid success record, just not in identifying lies. In addition to creating and paying an entire subclass of charlatans (polygraph trainers), many probably-guilty people have been caught using the polygraph via the Bogus Pipeline. The BP is the process of people confessing stuff when they think they're going to be caught lying. It was, incidentally, an important part of my Master's thesis.The body language/face stuff is almost all horseshit as you say. However, Paul Ekman (he did the "half a dozen basic emotions recognized across cultures" research in the mid-20th) has some decent (last I checked) findings showing that micro-expressions (very difficult for humans to perceive) can be used to deduce lying... somewhat better than mere chance. So, not miraculous. Ekman has been peddling his micro-expressions training to cops. So this story has an unhappy, unhelpful ending.
(DIR) Post #Ats4kWcC7h9yYNtkLw by venya@musicians.today
2025-05-08T03:15:50Z
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@futurebird I had to do a "CI-scope" (counterintelligence) polygraph every five years to have access to be able to do my job in the Army. It was very much voodoo.Repeated failure could cost civilians their careers. A non-trivial number of very bright people either left the intelligence community or never joined it because of the polygraph. We will never know the true cost (of continuing to use the polygraph) to national security but it is not small.
(DIR) Post #Ats9Ot54Pn3Jd6uFRw by lufthans@mastodon.social
2025-05-08T04:07:58Z
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@futurebird Have you seen the Barney Miller episode where they give Dietrich a lie detector test?C'est magnifique!
(DIR) Post #AtsSL8UV4of9OVj3B2 by sysop408@sfba.social
2025-05-08T07:40:10Z
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@futurebird the Cautionary Tales podcast recently did a three part piece on Harry Houdini and his intense hatred of the industrial complex of psychics and mediums that he as a magician could have appropriated to elevate his own fame even further.https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/cautionary-tales/houdini-a-message-from-the-spirits-part-1
(DIR) Post #Atsw84rWFouj05BL1s by guyjantic@mstdn.social
2025-05-08T13:13:57Z
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@futurebird Every time I've looked into how police solve crimes and how many, I've been deeply disappointed.
(DIR) Post #Attfv2Ij3qi3BScvwW by MennoWolff@ohai.social
2025-05-08T21:47:02Z
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@futurebird Tadaaaa.https://mstdn.social/@GottaLaff/114128773817040090