Post AtID6bNOO7ONPnGOEC by jlperuyero@masto.nobigtech.es
(DIR) More posts by jlperuyero@masto.nobigtech.es
(DIR) Post #AtHewmzewZrw6kJOfg by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-04-20T13:37:10Z
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You have heard of "dead internet theory" but you probably haven't looked at the theory as originally posted. It's often summed up as "the internet is just a bunch of bots talking to each other" ... and it's tempting to nod along: it's fun to say that "things were better in my day" and YES many sites have too many bots. However I wish to present the take that the now four-year-old "The Dead Internet Theory" is ... Bad Actually. 1/
(DIR) Post #AtHfBQqVZQ4BlJ0uTA by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-04-20T13:39:48Z
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The idea that "most interactions online are bots" and therefore the internet is just imaginary pointless cycles of the same nonsense designed to generate "interaction" for the purpose of advertising has its roots in another "Bad Actually" theory: the notion that life is a simulation and everyone is NPCs. I recently tried to read some of the original thread from wizchan and 4chan that are credited with starting "dead internet theory" and they are...deeply questionable.
(DIR) Post #AtHfaELrA3OuFcV9Dk by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-04-20T13:44:18Z
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Some of the points raised are: * Content is Recycled* News is Recycled* People online vanish without reason* The internet makes people "sexually perverted"* People are in bubblesNow all of these has a ... touch of truth, except for possibly #3 which seems more like a personal problem. But, these are also nothing new ... And thinking that people you interacted with for years online are bots is deeply unstable thinking. Bots can do reactions, but bots can't do relationships.
(DIR) Post #AtHfm8TqocInW7ux8q by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-04-20T13:46:27Z
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But when you read up on the people who are into this idea they think that they are *really* being Trueman Show'd by bots and that nearly everyone online is a part of a psyop to get them to take COVID shots, live in a pod and eat bugs. This stuff isn't coming from a good place or a healthy place and I somehow didn't know that. I thought it was just a general "golly there are too many ads and bots and that sucks."(and I do think it's sucks that's why I'm here most of the time)It's bad.
(DIR) Post #AtHfqckoCX38ZDzQAa by jmax@mastodon.social
2025-04-20T13:47:13Z
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@futurebird That's a really good way to put it.
(DIR) Post #AtHgFzdQGen4lpdEXo by mothninja@mastodon.world
2025-04-20T13:51:49Z
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@futurebird fascinating, and very troubling. Thank you for sharing
(DIR) Post #AtHh2pFLgCiak1elPc by DrorBedrack@mastodon.social
2025-04-20T14:00:38Z
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@futurebird yes, and then again... no. I think you're strawmanning. You've taken the people who take the most extreme bizzare interpretation of the idea and made them the representatives. Just because it's not 100% literally dead internet full of bots, doesnt mean there's some merit to the idea.I mean: Facebook is full of ads and algorithmic postsX is full of botsGoogle is full of garbage Most of the internet is bad. Except for some isolated bubbles.
(DIR) Post #AtHhOMoy2tRYx5aYm8 by Kierkegaanks@beige.party
2025-04-20T14:04:30Z
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@futurebird What about Dead Facebook Theory?
(DIR) Post #AtHhpfvD8bOA0iWx3Q by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-04-20T14:09:26Z
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@celesteh YES. Playing along with the theory is part of the theory *takes bong hit* it's so deeeep maaaan
(DIR) Post #AtHi1Fe0f8FhzI0LvU by davidnjoku@mastodon.world
2025-04-20T14:11:34Z
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@futurebird When it comes to social media, I've always believed that each network has two faces - the one that normal people see and the one that celebrities and influencers see. Yes, there are lots of bots around, but I barely see them in my daily interactions. I chat with other normal people; to me, Mastodon - and even Twitter - is human sized. It's different for influencers, which is why they have the view that it's all overrun with bots. Each post gets 1000 bot responses.
(DIR) Post #AtHiKSuVZ07YdLsqUi by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-04-20T14:15:03Z
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@celesteh You want a real conspiracy? Here is mine: Why do theories as sophomoric as "dead internet theory" and "NPC theory" or "simulation theory" or "Roko's basilisk" get *any* oxygen at all in media?These are half-baked shower-thoughts at best. But they are also concepts that teach helplessness and self-isolation. If you were the kind of person who feared the internet as a tool for grass roots organizing "dead internet theory" would make all would be activists dead in the water.
(DIR) Post #AtHijAdSe8lxC7grcO by hjakovel@toot.lv
2025-04-20T14:19:28Z
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@futurebird all large site owners care for is user metrics. engagement, regular users, etc. for that they might even hire people who write controversial stuff. like that theory :)
(DIR) Post #AtHivR5lHszNhymCFE by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-04-20T14:21:45Z
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All these would-be supermen convinced they need to serve an imaginary future all controlling fathe-- I mean inevitable super intelligent AI. smh
(DIR) Post #AtHj9LoDj4jlNUCsDY by floatybirb@mastodon.social
2025-04-20T14:24:11Z
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@futurebird @celesteh I heard a similar line of speculation from the Majority Report (a progressive news radio show) about Alex Jones' conspiracy theories (maybe it was Jade Helm or the FEMA camps, I forgot the specific one), that since the action item of believing in those things was really to just bunker down and not trust anything that they were incidentally useful to people in power as a way to demobilize and confound people. 1/2
(DIR) Post #AtHjQnTO7oyk6CmVxw by dx@social.ridetrans.it
2025-04-20T14:27:22Z
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@futurebird @celesteh The real conspiracy theory is that all the conspiracy theories are deliberately proliferated to quash resistance.
(DIR) Post #AtHk4EqIIf4sHHIpcW by avis_jay@squawk.social
2025-04-20T14:34:31Z
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@futurebird @celesteh It also helps to in ignoring uncomfortable online movements, as those "are just bots". It was one of the main arguments of the politicians behind the first draft of the European Copyright Reform, that the voices against it are paid by the industry and/or just bots. Until we marched through Berlin with over 30.000 other "bots".
(DIR) Post #AtHkIXGqa4lNUCXY12 by snosrapkungfu@mastodon.social
2025-04-20T14:37:05Z
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@futurebird @celesteh it's the same strategy as doing 80,000 terrible things all in 100ish days. It's noise to signal ratio, yes all 80k are "bad on a scale of 1-terrible" but some are far more terrible than the others and the idea is we miss things like "ooh let's think about one vote per household" because we're busy rolling our eyes at changing the name of the Gulf of Mexico. It's death by 1000 cuts and it's absolutely designed to make us feel helpless and to retreat, alone.
(DIR) Post #AtHmlUumcQLCUB9qKm by nw8man@fosstodon.org
2025-04-20T15:04:44Z
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@futurebird My fellow bots and I disagree. We are one, we are legion.
(DIR) Post #AtHnHUp2UybXStjGpU by thekitmalone@hoosier.social
2025-04-20T15:10:32Z
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@futurebird @celesteh Oh I love this, thank you for putting this into words - it's something I've struggled to articulate about why I don't love these particular sorta "stoner philosophy" favs.
(DIR) Post #AtHoZymPxHThXmsdWq by HoustonDog@mastodon.world
2025-04-20T15:25:03Z
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@futurebird the people not doing childhood shots have their own alternatives... there are "50 signs for $100" being placed on street corners here to purchase high alkaline water. (there's even a parking lot address to visit today, to meet folks willing to try home brew "9.5 to 10.5 pH" water poured into gallon jugs)
(DIR) Post #AtHq4cFNsi2SahbMVU by jplebreton@mastodon.social
2025-04-20T15:41:37Z
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@futurebird a lot of modern right wing beliefs are deeply solipsistic in this way, so it's no surprise that it combos very effectively with being super isolated and distrustful. very easy type of person to manipulate, if you can control the swath of the media that they pay attention to. and very easy to further separate them from people who could help them, as they spiral further into repellent beliefs. no wonder they occasionally become mass shooters.
(DIR) Post #AtHtsBCB26Vb27QWgq by cstross@wandering.shop
2025-04-20T16:24:18Z
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@futurebird Solipsism REALLY got a reboot by way of the simulation hypothesis (which is also the omphalos hypothesis in atheist drag).
(DIR) Post #AtHw6jX6MbH3UXHWtc by pencilears@mastodon.eternalaugust.com
2025-04-20T16:49:22Z
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@futurebird yeah, as much as the internet is a good place for people with mental issues to make friends and talk in a low-stakes kind of way, it's also a pickle barrel for the human mind.
(DIR) Post #AtHxn7lOlUG8l3kKie by snosrapkungfu@mastodon.social
2025-04-20T14:48:54Z
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@futurebird @celesteh but i will add: I will not allow this to "work" on me. And i think there might be some underestimation of quite how many of us feel that same way. We won't tolerate loss of rights, of freedoms, of dreams. Not for ourselves, nor for our kids. Yes there are days it feels insurmountable. But when you realize that's how they want you to feel... I for one go from sad to mad. And there are millions of us.
(DIR) Post #AtHy4u4IQEAHUn3zAe by bajax@baj.ax
2025-04-20T17:10:53.215598Z
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@complexmath @futurebird maybe cultivate a culture of resilience so that people don't fall for this shit rather than trying to clamp down. but that misses the point, doesn't it-- you're not trying to improve the outcome of human destiny or whatever, you just wanna own the chuds because you think you're already the "new man"
(DIR) Post #AtHyIrxr2bZf1ai4MS by llewelly@sauropods.win
2025-04-20T17:14:02Z
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@futurebird I will break in to say: having a news article from 2 or 5 or 20 years ago get a new round of posts linking to it is actually a good thing; in most cases, the relevant events are still having consequences that are relevant today, and most of the time people benefit from being reminded of them. This is especially important for political news and science news, two areas in which nearly all reporters report nearly everything as if history and context were totally irrelevant.
(DIR) Post #AtHySAWVPPXbBrLsLA by asakiyume@wandering.shop
2025-04-20T17:15:38Z
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@futurebird @celesteh --> They are also theories that teach helplessness and self-isolation. YES. so true, and absolutely you are right to speak up against that. So many things (so many) can be vehicles of community, of encouragement and excitement. If the message is that everything is hopeless, you're helpless, best hunker down alone--don't listen to that!
(DIR) Post #AtHyYF6JIpat7mzmLo by thedansimonson@lingo.lol
2025-04-20T17:16:44Z
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@futurebird @celesteh I think in a lot of these cases, people are looking for an explanation for their suffering—but in online communities based around that suffering, explanations that fix or change don’t stick. Instead, the explanations that do are the ones that allow you to change nothing and wallow in the group.
(DIR) Post #AtHzJQyKyznJYNlj9c by avis_jay@squawk.social
2025-04-20T17:20:51Z
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@bajax @futurebird @celesteh Also, no reason to be that rude
(DIR) Post #AtI0PJpgXYmt6P5kWW by anselmschueler@ieji.de
2025-04-20T17:37:35Z
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@futurebird I thought it was just a philosophical exercise akin to Descartes's method of doubt or Plato's cave
(DIR) Post #AtI0YU1i0btvKB5N7g by avis_jay@squawk.social
2025-04-20T17:29:05Z
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@bajax @futurebird @celesteh And it seems you don't understand the highly complex rhetorical device of irony
(DIR) Post #AtI0x3ThquEiE2tjhw by ehproque@neopaquita.es
2025-04-20T17:43:41Z
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@futurebird @celesteh I have one related too the Basilisk: why do all conspiracy theories involve Bill Gates and none involved certified insane villain and hand-up-VPs ass Peter Thiel
(DIR) Post #AtI18giWIrUX6mNFOi by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-04-20T17:45:49Z
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@ehproque @celesteh ... because Thiel is in the group making them up?
(DIR) Post #AtI19hKFWgVjHkVFoW by Okanogen@mastodon.social
2025-04-20T17:46:00Z
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@futurebird Can confirm that adult movie theaters predated the internet.
(DIR) Post #AtI1EdO3b5NOWAdcES by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-04-20T17:46:54Z
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@anselmschueler It can be that. But, there is another stoner nihilism version and that's what came first.
(DIR) Post #AtI2LsR09JYbAU25L6 by wtrmt@mastodon.social
2025-04-20T17:59:23Z
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@futurebird @celesteh I find annoying that most of PKD’s stories have been co-opted by conspiracy theorists and conmen, sucking the life out of them.I used to enjoy Black Mirror, PKD and other authors in the genre. Not anymore.
(DIR) Post #AtI4mzhbR4jTR4r8SW by angusm@mastodon.social
2025-04-20T18:26:35Z
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@futurebird Saying “the Internet is dead” is problematic for all the reasons you cite … but maybe “how MUCH of the Internet is dead?” is a more interesting question. What percentage of content is never seen by humans (AI slop, SEObait, random automated data etc)? What percentage of traffic is pointless bot activity, spam, click-fraud attempts etc? How much storage is devoted to duplicate data, unwatched videos & pics from everyone’s phones etc?It may not be dead, but there’s a lot of decay.
(DIR) Post #AtI6eMw7sjXMnVfEgK by avis_jay@squawk.social
2025-04-20T17:44:39Z
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@bajax @futurebird @celesteh You are the one who decided to insult me for any comprehensible reason, because I quoted a German politician.
(DIR) Post #AtI827eETZUaHjBWTY by ehproque@neopaquita.es
2025-04-20T19:03:03Z
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@futurebird @celesteh yeah, it's that obvious, and yet you still get leftists still play along
(DIR) Post #AtI9gih0GQIsiMP3QG by trenchworms@eldritch.cafe
2025-04-20T19:21:34Z
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@futurebird I am personally a huge fan of Roko's Basilisk as it is an accurate way to tell if the person you're talking to is an incurious muppet with a fantasy of complying in advance.
(DIR) Post #AtIBXMSDmBvd2s9cDg by wordshaper@weatherishappening.network
2025-04-20T19:42:14Z
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@futurebird I hadn’t really given much thought to how deeply nihilistic (or maybe sociopathic?) this theory is, but eesh it really is deeply problematic.
(DIR) Post #AtID00HZOCiKdIOSrw by aziz@functional.cafe
2025-04-20T19:58:38Z
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@futurebird @celesteh that remind le that idea that mainstream fantasy is most of the time harmful, and bad. Is that because of the power structure pushing wrong ideas to the spotlight to keep us under the permanent gaslighting of dystopian future and reality. Or a lack of utopist ideas?Do you know an utopia, and a path to get there?By the way thx for your toots it is delightful.
(DIR) Post #AtID6bNOO7ONPnGOEC by jlperuyero@masto.nobigtech.es
2025-04-20T19:59:53Z
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@futurebird Social capital is a term originating in sociology and recognized by economics since the late 1990s. Facebook was born in 2004. Since it is a form of capital that resides in, or better yet, **among** individuals, its appropriation by large companies presented certain problems for conventional methods, which social media have come to solve....
(DIR) Post #AtIGVLqDaG2SKtEuAq by mattmcirvin@mathstodon.xyz
2025-04-20T20:37:57Z
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@futurebird A lot of the seemingly wacky, apolitical conspiracy theories about the flat Earth or UFOs are one or two clicks away from someone saying "it's the Jews doing it." The ugly is never far away.
(DIR) Post #AtIIKFKLf7p6r8AILI by jlperuyero@masto.nobigtech.es
2025-04-20T20:00:18Z
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@futurebird ...It is a form of capital that is, if anything, even more intertwined with governance and access to decision-making power than monetary capital, making its mastery and control vital. All these conspiracy theories seek to nullify the part of it that escapes the power of corporations and their leaders.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_capital
(DIR) Post #AtIvc6Z0sbmH6LWywq by zeborah@mastodon.nz
2025-04-20T23:31:48Z
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@trenchworms I mean 100% yes but otoh every time I'm reminded of Roko's Basilisk I'm filled with utter rage at how stupid you'd have to be to come up with such internally inconsistent, cherry-picked ad absurdum nonsense. Leave alone that "otherwise benevolent" is doing a lot of work here but ffs what if an AI punishes everyone who *did* contribute to its development? What if dolphins take over and punish everyone who ate sushi? Like, come on, Roko, just live your life mate.@futurebird
(DIR) Post #AtIy7YRTTiTiRy83Hs by nazokiyoubinbou@urusai.social
2025-04-21T04:41:56Z
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@zeborah @trenchworms @futurebird I had to look that one up. Wow it's stupid.It falls apart at every level. Like the basic premise seems to be that it would reverse punish people who didn't help it in the past because this would incentivize helping it, but that only applies after it exists, so it can't actually incentivize anything in the past before it exists. It's a total non-sequitur. It can't affect the past from the present. It can only affect the future from the present... In fact, the incentive this produces is the opposite of the claim. It makes you want to work to prevent it.Either people are trying too hard to get meta with this and confusing themselves or they're just plain not that smart to begin with and think it makes them sound smarter than they are.
(DIR) Post #AtIy7ZbRAA2e39nWSG by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-04-21T04:46:41Z
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@nazokiyoubinbou @zeborah @trenchworms Roko's Basilisk is just Pascal's Wager in a "Spirit Halloween" "Cyber Punk" (Neo from the Matrix) costume. Basically Pascal's Wager but like this:https://www.tiktok.com/@tech/video/7265636608861408544
(DIR) Post #AtIyH6iHQdg3LWXpfk by nazokiyoubinbou@urusai.social
2025-04-21T04:48:26Z
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@futurebird @zeborah @trenchworms Well, I don't click on TikTok links, but yeah, I noticed the slight parallel to Pascal's Wager.Though Pascal's Wager has an even easier answer. "Zeus is getting very angry at people insisting on following this 'Yahweh' upstart and if you don't stop he might just free the titans." (You really don't want the titans to come back. Trust me.)
(DIR) Post #AtJNklEANGEGFchCZk by kechpaja@social.kechpaja.com
2025-04-21T09:33:50Z
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@futurebird @nazokiyoubinbou @zeborah @trenchworms I would also draw a parallel to the "what will you tell your grandchildren when they ask what you did about X?" line that occasionally pops up. It's a mechanism for manipulating people by tricking them into imagining a hypothetical future being whose opinion they would (for widely varying reasons) care about, and then framing that hypothetical being as taking whatever position the manipulator is trying to manipulate you into taking.There's a reason I never, ever, ever use that line, even when a lot of people who otherwise agree with me do.
(DIR) Post #AtJOWm9UEwMp1CP05o by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-04-21T09:42:37Z
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@kechpaja @nazokiyoubinbou @zeborah @trenchworms But at least having grand-children are an empirically verified phenomenon that that really exist. Whereas an AI that hates you isn't.So worrying about what grad-children might think is more grounded in reality.
(DIR) Post #AtJTIK0WaEzxRj8a8G by zeborah@mastodon.nz
2025-04-21T10:35:58Z
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@futurebird Also if you have grandkids then they'll be raised by the people you've raised so they'll at least to some extent be raised to value the things you value. And if they don't value those things then you'd want to tell them a story to change their mind. So I see the question ultimately as a metaphor/dramatisation of "Will future-you be proud of the things that present-you is doing?"@kechpaja @nazokiyoubinbou @trenchworms
(DIR) Post #AtKUXbWu0qx9FL5pTc by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-04-21T22:24:39Z
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@apophis @trenchworms @zeborah @nazokiyoubinbou Really? I thought that was just how everyone on here used their computer.
(DIR) Post #AtKgS0YFGjIQYuoq48 by PTR_K@dice.camp
2025-04-22T00:38:06Z
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@futurebird @celesteh This all ties in to a topic I've diatribed about before. To try sum up:People buy into asinine conspiracies because:1) The crisis of epistemology: It is getting tougher to know what sources to trust, or have internal tools to discern who to trust.2) When you feel ignorant and powerless, latching onto ideas that seem hidden & deep, makes you feel empowered and in-the-know in ways others aren't. Even if you can't do anything, you now have "knowledge" others lack.
(DIR) Post #AtKhh5JbwGBjdRj8FM by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-04-22T00:52:05Z
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@PTR_K @celesteh I think there is another much more minor factor ... something like an inability to find healthy outlets for creative expression. Telling stories is something that a lot of people, maybe even most people need to do. But mostly there aren't many chances to make up your own stories to help you process the world you just have to sit and listen to mass media. Some people are into conspiracies because they didn't realize they could just do a role play game or write a story.
(DIR) Post #AtKhne3jfsK184QhVY by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-04-22T00:53:16Z
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@PTR_K @celesteh I think Peter's reasons are much bigger players. But, I also think the creative fun of conspiracies gives them a "life of their own"... and this gets its hooks in people more if they don't have any other place for their imagination to play without restraints.
(DIR) Post #AtKjTqzY58zBM5A5Ue by PTR_K@dice.camp
2025-04-22T01:12:04Z
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@futurebird @celesteh There's probably something to that.Although I think people have always used their personal little stories to try and process the world, but in previous eras there was some degree of gatekeeping for the real out there stuff (the Overton window or the sheer cost to get your message out).But now its easier than ever for people to connect and reinforce each others' opinions on the web.
(DIR) Post #AtKjr3kknlBDauJ5iS by LGS@friendsofdesoto.social
2025-04-22T01:16:13Z
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@futurebird Humans initate power to find pattern, even in situations where no intelligence created one, is key strength and weakness. I agree that spending energy storytelling is a powerful way burn off that energy. As the old adage goes "Idle hand are the devils playground".
(DIR) Post #AtMbuSwNCXCVGNm6c4 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-04-22T22:56:41Z
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@kechpaja @nazokiyoubinbou @zeborah @trenchworms I'm considering the horror of the "grad-child" the child who becomes an eternal grad student...