Post AsqjGfBiFArdhsJRKK by pait@mastodon.social
(DIR) More posts by pait@mastodon.social
(DIR) Post #AsqQWa4R8hmzL7mmZs by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-04-07T10:18:23Z
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Everything wrong with the Wikipedia is something that is just generally wrong with working with humans.My experience with the Wikipedia included being harassed white nationalists because I edited their creepy "Race and IQ." A very ugly experience and I did not feel supported or protected by "the wikipedia community" -- Despite this, STILL think it's one of the best resources on the internet and the fact that people like Musk want to destroy it only makes me more confident this is right.
(DIR) Post #AsqR4Fswh7Faa8T5YO by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-04-07T10:24:27Z
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In fact, there is a lot of systemic bias in the Wikipedia. This is a reflection of systemic bias in society. For example if you look at biographies notable men outnumber women, it's white and western dominated. The "Race and IQ" topic is still a big mess. But, you can tell from the boatload of citations and the 1GB talk page that it's a contested topic. I expect if the Wiki can endure the talk pages will be a huge resource for historians. If we still have historians in the future.
(DIR) Post #AsqRL77yVZC2LMXLYu by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-04-07T10:27:29Z
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The "marketplace of ideas" is an imperfect concept that inherently magnifies oppressions. Who has the time to edit articles? What sources are reliable? Bias must exist in any attempt to describe the world. And yet, the idea that we should attempt the task together is inherently radical. And, the idea that "everyone who can be bothered" should just hash out the definition of everything turns out to be too woke for most fascists. Even with all the built in advantages conservatives can't compete.
(DIR) Post #AsqRlVeTwxHJvwKPMe by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-04-07T10:32:16Z
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It's also why they don't like democracy. And democracy is flawed too.But, if we can start from "everyone can edit" and "everyone should have a say" we at least have a slim chance of hearing all voices. We at least have a chance at arriving at a self-aware stance that recognizes its own shortcomings and tries to be better. God will not come down from heaven and write a perfect encyclopedia for us. Short of that, (if you care to think such a thing is possible) this is the best we will get.
(DIR) Post #AsqRqBOYgwr0YX6mo4 by Phosphenes@mastodon.social
2025-04-07T10:33:05Z
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@futurebird Good point. The marketplace of ideas is often dominated by - marketing, which has nothing to do with ideas.
(DIR) Post #AsqTt0XzgDSTgmzqfg by sun@shitposter.world
2025-04-07T10:56:05.685850Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@futurebird very frequently I double check a wikipedia citation and it's just wrong, it's not a trustworthy source at all. use it to start research nothing more.
(DIR) Post #AsqU0McM1NtSAMXlmC by NonPlayableClown@postnstuffds.lol
2025-04-07T10:57:25.434942Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
Sometimes citations are even behind paywalls and broken links.Will never understand why they don't archive their source links.
(DIR) Post #AsqbVaWJ57ejwLYDtw by lienrag@mastodon.tedomum.net
2025-04-07T12:21:20Z
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@futurebird I stumbled upon Wikipedia pages about cannibalism that described a lot of horrors in Africa, way worse than the little bit I knew about it.The sources seemed to be old colonial or precolonial Europeans accounts, accepted at face value.I don't know enough about the topic to edit anything, but it would be nice if someone could improve these pages...It's not clear if it's overt racism or just sensationalism that drive them, but spreading falsities isn't good in either cases.
(DIR) Post #AsqcLrLNmBfBB0MlKy by clumpytree@c.im
2025-04-07T12:30:48Z
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@futurebird I wonder if Wikipedia should become more honest about bias and stop hiding disagreement in the discussion pages. I don't think there is such a thing as "no point of view", claiming that is just not being honest. If there are multiple camps on an issue, why not have forks of the page and have a prominent banner on the top of the page that shows there are competing versions. With different versions of the page being decided by different moderator teams.
(DIR) Post #AsqdLuetYI5jPY5ALg by cstross@wandering.shop
2025-04-07T12:41:02Z
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@futurebird Some people, in my experience, are reliable moral anti-compasses: they always point unerringly towards Wrong. Musk, Trump, et al are definitely such: if they're in favour of something, run away!Conversely, if they're opposed to a thing (eg. wikipedia) then that's a recommendation (subject to confirmation).
(DIR) Post #AsqdaGQTPzNUyYBDQu by SciPolTech@mastodon.online
2025-04-07T12:44:39Z
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@futurebird I didn't know Musk was trying to destroy wikipedia (beyond wanting to generally erode objective reality in favor of neofeudalism...). Slightly afraid to ask, but what did I miss?
(DIR) Post #AsqdfR6j8FJbYGPTii by davew@mastodon.social
2025-04-07T12:45:35Z
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@futurebird i agree. when i need to link to a definitive pice about a topic i'm writing about i always go with wikipedia. but their stories are often owned by people with huge conflicts of interest, and thus the story gets warped beyond recognition. it's very clear when you know the actual story.chatgpt, while it uses wikipedia as a source usually gets the story right. yesterday i wrote a piece suggesting that they compete with wikipedia. even got the bot to write up a proposal! :-)
(DIR) Post #AsqfMDV7hEdhl3mgcK by taurus@thicc.horse
2025-04-07T13:04:31Z
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@futurebird many countries will still have historians even if the US fails as a free nation
(DIR) Post #AsqfzxZaKsH3wQp2f2 by mattmcirvin@mathstodon.xyz
2025-04-07T13:11:42Z
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@futurebird The math and physics pages have a different problem: they have a generally very high level of accuracy but are incomprehensibly written. If you try to write or rewrite a page along the lines of an encyclopedic but readable popular exposition, people will jump in with expert "corrections" and additions that interrupt the flow of the development and send readers down circular rabbit holes to figure out what is being said. The single-author approach of traditional encyclopedias like the Brittanica does better there, though you're subject to luck of the draw.
(DIR) Post #AsqjGfBiFArdhsJRKK by pait@mastodon.social
2025-04-07T13:48:21Z
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@futurebird Agree. Wikipedia is affected by all the bigotry that infests humankind, but in an attenuated form.While Twitter for examples incubates and amplifies bigotry.
(DIR) Post #AsqkPQ4HvabVNFZxK4 by StephanieMoore@mastodon.online
2025-04-07T14:01:08Z
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@futurebird I had an awful interaction with an editor many years ago that I still can’t shake the feeling of … so, I get that people love it and see it as a refuge, but I don’t get warm fuzzies about the site.
(DIR) Post #AsqnHicBO5oGRQS6pk by cobalt123@beige.party
2025-04-07T14:33:20Z
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@futurebird Am appreciative of this OP and following the topic of the worth and biases of Wikipedia. You are right that the discussion, edits and tall pages are a wealth of information to present and future historians. I wonder if people outside the US see their country represented better or at least more fairly than USians. Maybe @lavaeolus abd @juergen_hubert have some observations. All the comments to these posts are excellent to read. Btw I donate to Wikipedia now several times a year. It’s horrifying to think of how such a universal resource could be taken over by capitalists with an extreme right wing agenda who also desire to obliterate much history.
(DIR) Post #Asr9X5NzCoXGOqXqUq by adrianmorales@ieji.de
2025-04-07T18:42:35Z
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@futurebird Perhaps it would be wise to add a report button to Wiki pages.
(DIR) Post #AsrIwWtwwKT0Z4hdtA by coldfish@sfba.social
2025-04-07T20:28:05Z
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@futurebird I tell my kids to use wikipedia for the references and even the structure.Read those references and see what you think. Use them along with your others, but if you just write crap with no references, nobody will (or should) believe your document is anything but opinion.
(DIR) Post #AsrJ9zGSnW1YIPeOlk by aSweetGentleman@mstdn.social
2025-04-07T16:54:36Z
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@eyrea @melioristicmarie @futurebird The French Wikipedia is known for its misogynistic, racist and transphobic "guidelines".Which is not surprising as it reflects France's treatment of its minorities.https://www.lemonde.fr/en/pixels/article/2024/03/12/wikipedia-s-french-speaking-community-is-torn-apart-over-deadnaming-trans-people_6611905_13.html
(DIR) Post #AsrJA0JKuJurXc0Csy by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-04-07T20:30:29Z
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@aSweetGentleman @eyrea @melioristicmarie I don't care if they are "torn." To be fair this could be the work of like six stubborn people. Get six more on the other side and they will lose. If I spoke French I'd jump in the fray. What BS.
(DIR) Post #AssS5Duxz1D32XMJ9c by jaystephens@mastodon.social
2025-04-08T09:45:12Z
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@futurebird This!The community has racists, misogynists, Empire-builders etc., just like a workplace.Should it be better? Hell yeah. Is it a massive outlier compared to other mostly volunteer orgs? I don't think so.
(DIR) Post #AssTKEPWX6HOrmN7a4 by JensLallensack@sauropods.win
2025-04-08T09:59:02Z
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@futurebird Where did you edit the "Race and IQ" article, and what was the response? I can't find it in the article history
(DIR) Post #AssTyOOCqqjxOkuEE4 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-04-08T10:06:25Z
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@JensLallensack This was years ago, you'd need to go pretty deep in the history to find my edits.
(DIR) Post #AssWYYi49qrHjuZIoK by JensLallensack@sauropods.win
2025-04-08T10:35:22Z
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@futurebird I do think, though, that we made progress over the last years, also regarding discussion culture. I know Wikipedia as a overwhelmingly progressive place. That can be quite different with such honeypot articles, and yes, those are often a problem. And yes, we have many problems, but no obvious solutions to them, unfortunately.