Post ArgrGhSDinSjLO2FmK by tomjennings@tldr.nettime.org
(DIR) More posts by tomjennings@tldr.nettime.org
(DIR) Post #ArgYg3VSyDOtqfvl9E by tomjennings@tldr.nettime.org
2025-03-03T18:10:31Z
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So we need to start looking for alternatives to Firefox as default browser. The choices are many, and vague, and seemingly uncoordinated and impossible to assess from here.Whenever chromium is mentioned I see the usual flood of "google, bad". This is insufficient and an emotional response. I want goddamn facks.Yes yes google authored it -- but it's code, and can be blackboxed. Do all chromium based browsers emit, or leak, critical information? Cant this simply be tested externally?The short if it is, how the hell do we make rational browser choices through this murk of opinion?
(DIR) Post #ArgZDuqzeCoErH95cG by jlin@fosstodon.org
2025-03-03T18:16:36Z
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@tomjennings I would suggest a different path and a reframing. Is the idea of looking for alternatives to firefox itself not an emotional response as well?What I'm trying to say is within the browser landscape, rational choices are not possible simply because not all the facts are available. That's the reason you don't see much facts out there - because browsers are complex and open source projects are subject to their own internal non-transparencies.1/2
(DIR) Post #Arga6tgZgx2lA9UPAG by sinza@bitbang.social
2025-03-03T18:26:17Z
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@tomjennings I think the issue people are failing to bring up but absolutely mean when they say Chromium is a negative is more because its the dominant browser engine right now not unlike like Internet Explorer was 20-25 years ago.I have my opinion on the matter, but I'm trying to keep it out of this post.
(DIR) Post #ArgrGhSDinSjLO2FmK by tomjennings@tldr.nettime.org
2025-03-03T21:38:50Z
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@fredy The most common and important single application in all of computing, and no one's testing them?
(DIR) Post #ArgrfVvphN0CqbicSm by tomjennings@tldr.nettime.org
2025-03-03T21:43:21Z
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@jlin I'm not. Others may. Firefox seems to be for now as good as it has been, modulo this new hint at selling personal data. Even if, it's nada compared to Google chrome. I am not saying and so not believe that Firefox was "good", then suddenly "bad", when Mozilla ratchets up the stupid. It's a slow process. That seems to be very popular, this binary good bad thing. I tend to not do it. But sure as shit change is a coming and I want to make informed choices and not be left to stepping off a sinking ship as it goes down. Whatever, I still want to see rational assessments, however teensy it is or isn't.
(DIR) Post #ArgrrOc8jOA7cxAnaa by jlin@fosstodon.org
2025-03-03T18:18:06Z
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@tomjennings I wish open source projects were all 100% transparent, but it doesn't work that way in real life when it's people who are doing the work, not robots.Now then, my suggestion is actually to go the opposite direction from what you are trying:Pick the browser you have a genuine *emotional* connection with - use what *feels good* to you - and left facts be a guide, but not the determining factor.Once you change your framing you'll find your answer to what browser you should use2/2
(DIR) Post #ArgrrPnALsZnHRL7Pk by tomjennings@tldr.nettime.org
2025-03-03T21:45:29Z
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@jlin Wtf is an emotional connection to a piece of utility software. I think you and I work umm differently.
(DIR) Post #ArgsEwEXtunOYZMZVo by tomjennings@tldr.nettime.org
2025-03-03T21:49:43Z
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@sinza Googles chrome isn't bad because it is popular, it is bad because it does things for Google that harms people. There's a chromium code base that browsers can be made from. That's what I am referring to. Other non corporate browsers made with this code base. It's complex for sure, but it's code. It can be understood and tested. Im thinking there's some disconnects here in this thread.
(DIR) Post #ArhIEdlBBPaO4O95we by patamystic@sfba.social
2025-03-04T02:40:59Z
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@tomjennings this makes me crazy. i build websites (mostly wordpress) and i have never found a single reliable all-purpose browsersince i'm an apple guy, Safari aint badFF was my primary but not no more. LibreWolf and WaterFox break on too many sites for meVivaldi is my favorite chrome browser. not perfect but pretty goodbut truly, the situation is bizarre. for writing, notes, tasks, music, and many other purposes, there are a multitude of apps to choose from. but web browsers/browsing mostly sucks
(DIR) Post #ArhJ8zpwHzT0kxFES8 by tomjennings@tldr.nettime.org
2025-03-04T02:51:12Z
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@fredy So I once read about this Amish groups approach to the telephone.They had a dilemma. While it's incredibly useful for business and emergencies, and casual conversation, it is also extremely disruptive of social life. So they put the phone outside in its own tiny office, so you could go out there and do your thing (phone sex, I assume). I'm already thinking of the Internet like that a bit. I'm thinking not all of my machines need constant internet. I'll walk it over to the bench and do updates.
(DIR) Post #ArhOvWqDNklomxKpXc by tomjennings@tldr.nettime.org
2025-03-04T03:56:00Z
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@patamystic I just use Firefox, loaded with blockers and anti trackers. I never see ads. I never visit sites that don't work on Firefox. Too many websites are too designery for my taste. Good spare presentation is scarce. Multiple scrolling elements are a big red flag for me. They drive me nuts. Design wise the web is a fucking shit show.
(DIR) Post #ArhPzo0DcPGh7scL6e by sinza@bitbang.social
2025-03-04T04:07:58Z
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@tomjennings After reading the rest of the thread, I definitely misunderstood what you said. I'm sorry.I do agree with you, to be honest, and that I should have been clearer on instead of being deliberately vague. I have been concerned about the longevity of other software for lesser reasons than Firefox/Gecko.Thank you for exposing this blind spot caused by my own emotional attachment.
(DIR) Post #ArhQ62XuSXZXy9LhD6 by tomjennings@tldr.nettime.org
2025-03-04T04:09:06Z
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@fredy Back? I still do. I work best on my lab, then take breaks. I take lunch breaks, afternoon coffee. At night I occasionally read documents or whatever or shop for stuff but no way I'll do brain burn work at night, then I don't sleep. I've mostly worked for myself all my life so I've learned to pace everything. There's exceptions of course and I frequently stress out working on a hard thing etc but recognize it as a bad thing and correct. I recently made a big change in attitude, I was hurrying and getting impatient and I've slowed down, set a rough milestone, if i achieve it early I often stop for the day. Coding and debugging is much more fun and relaxed. And I get a ton of shit done.
(DIR) Post #ArhRnE3bdWag4pKaSO by tomjennings@tldr.nettime.org
2025-03-04T04:28:05Z
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@aleteoryx Oh my, thanks tons for the detailed explanation. I admit I was too simplistically thinking of it as a relatively static body of work. I hadn't considered market (and other) dynamics or intentional manipulation.
(DIR) Post #ArhRzojl5TlrJR3GS0 by tomjennings@tldr.nettime.org
2025-03-04T04:30:23Z
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@aleteoryx And no, not very familiar with browser tech. And I may be too narrow a user to be trying to ask deep questions.
(DIR) Post #ArhSp6q5XmKoDwTDoO by tomjennings@tldr.nettime.org
2025-03-04T04:39:40Z
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@sinza No problem! And sorry if I was too grouchy. Browsers seem to be "special" on that they're highly politicized chunks of control. The situation is dominated by massive corporate power and money. It's unlikely we'll will this battle. Maybe we need to find a way to go around it.
(DIR) Post #ArhW0OU2aAjrzkEKfo by tomjennings@tldr.nettime.org
2025-03-04T05:15:18Z
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@aleteoryx Damn. How are we supposed to deal with shit at that scale?
(DIR) Post #ArhWfa9S6doQ3UExAO by tomjennings@tldr.nettime.org
2025-03-04T05:22:43Z
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@aleteoryx Thank you for the rundown. I knew "of" the three families. And the ancient browsers.
(DIR) Post #AriVDfO18yDrO28baK by patamystic@sfba.social
2025-03-04T16:41:11Z
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@tomjennings yeah, of course, the biggest part of the problem is how fucked websites themselves arei've got great blockers and privacy protections, in all my browsers, but admittedly FF has the edge with what's availablemy biggest challenge is that i do a lot on my ipad and safari is really the only reliable option
(DIR) Post #AriWVpL0yyuLPwxNui by tomjennings@tldr.nettime.org
2025-03-04T16:55:41Z
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@aleteoryx You wrote:"the primary concern that I've heard for a blink/chromium-dominated browser space is not one of tracking. it is that, even if there are multiple forks, google, as the provider of the majority of development time, will abuse their effective market dominance to shape web technologies in a way that benefits corporate interests, and all the forks will have no choice but to follow suit because browser engines require extreme development money to properly maintain independently." This was on front of me, I did not think it out. Small sites, and medium sized sites, we're just using the tools laying around, we can't really choose. The big sites like Amazon are intimately coupled to Google and their shared goals of extraction. It's foolish to think we can effectively fight in that battle. I don't even want what's under the battlefield. I don't want anything Amazon has, anyway. Thanks so much for the education. You have a really great pov here and lots of specific knowledge. Thanks again.