Post ArJsYriOUneiClAFm4 by mcc@mastodon.social
(DIR) More posts by mcc@mastodon.social
(DIR) Post #ArJh0RDlOWkuh3DbGa by mcc@mastodon.social
2025-02-20T17:19:23Z
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@swift Probably athenian. I think the Roman senate was an oligarchy…?
(DIR) Post #ArJh0SaUJWWkvorGKG by mcc@mastodon.social
2025-02-20T17:20:30Z
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@swift I remember a history book reading a story about how when they were threatened militarily some Athens-like democracy picked *one specific farmer* who they decided was their buffest dude, said "we are making you Tyrant, you will be dictator for two years", he won the war and at the end of the two years went back to being a farmerStory sounded fake as hell honestly. Like a story a nation would tell about itself to make itself sound cool and ultrademocratic
(DIR) Post #ArJsYlPNwYswe4DzJQ by mcc@mastodon.social
2025-02-20T17:10:08Z
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I think they fucked it up, but I think the US government's "two legislative chambers, one emphasizing popular support, one emphasizing geographical distribution of support" idea is fundamentally good.At one point I got this idea the ideal form of government might be 2 chambers:- One pure proportional representation chamber (STV)- One chamber where you have equal-population ridings/districts, each electing 1 person that "represents them" (selected by ranked vote, of course)(post 1 of 2)
(DIR) Post #ArJsYmrQXmuV9KLtey by leon_p_smith@ioc.exchange
2025-02-20T18:50:06Z
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@mcc I would specifically recommend against RCV:http://zesty.ca/voting/sim
(DIR) Post #ArJsYngTTzk9heEfE8 by mcc@mastodon.social
2025-02-20T18:53:05Z
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@leon_p_smith I have heard this argument a thousand times and I simply don't take it seriously. I think the wide repetition of this meme winds up having more of an effect on "don't do ranked choice" than "pick one of the more mathematically rigorous ranked voting methods".
(DIR) Post #ArJsYoQuhKtG1fxkbw by shironeko@fedi.tesaguri.club
2025-02-20T19:34:56.573409Z
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@mcc @leon_p_smith it's kinda ironic that RCV with all it's problems are talked about most. Where's the love for approval voting ¿
(DIR) Post #ArJsYpSis5vpDZoi4O by mcc@mastodon.social
2025-02-20T17:13:14Z
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However I posted this, and someone replied:"What about a chamber elected by pure lottery?"and now I am haunted by the idea that *this might actually be the ideal form of government*. A unicameral legislation of a couple hundred people, each drawn literally at random from the entire populace. This idea is batshit and has several critical problems. I think it might actually be better in several ways than electoral democracy.(post 2 of 2)
(DIR) Post #ArJsYriOUneiClAFm4 by mcc@mastodon.social
2025-02-20T18:53:08Z
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@leon_p_smith Also, this is the first time I have ever heard "ranked choice voting" as a shorthand for "instant runoff voting" and I strongly oppose this nomenclature. Surely ranked choice voting should be a form of voting where you rank your choices.
(DIR) Post #ArJsYuhROnfxSfk2Cm by mcc@mastodon.social
2025-02-20T17:23:54Z
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Oh, this isn't just an idea someone on social media had I guess. There's a word for it.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition
(DIR) Post #ArJumstx56JvqZNoIa by mcc@mastodon.social
2025-02-20T19:37:47Z
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@shironeko @leon_p_smith I again want to state my firm opposition to using the ambiguous term "RCV" for instant runoff voting
(DIR) Post #ArJumtr9WzfwoB55Zg by mcc@mastodon.social
2025-02-20T19:45:04Z
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@shironeko @leon_p_smith Anyway, I think approval voting is pretty bad for elections. The two things I want from voting are:- Don't make me lie.- Don't force me to vote "strategically".Imagine an election (this is most elections) with a candidate I fear and hate, a candidate I think is gross but superior to candidate A, and a candidate I like.
(DIR) Post #ArJumuigJyUfUC7q0e by mcc@mastodon.social
2025-02-20T19:45:11Z
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@shironeko @leon_p_smith First past the post forces me to vote strategically; I may have to vote for candidate B (in a sense lying, since I don't want candidate B).Approval vote is not much better here. I get to vote for B and C. But I have to lie— I *don't* approve of B, I'd just rather they win than A. And I'm tempted to vote strategically— if many people vote for both B and C, then my B+C vote might have put B over the top, since whether I *prefer* B or C is not recorded.
(DIR) Post #ArJumvPDloWNc81oJc by shironeko@fedi.tesaguri.club
2025-02-20T19:59:55.135676Z
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@mcc @leon_p_smith I think when taking about election reform of a first past the post system, it's not really productive to discus if a system is better than fptp in some way if it fails short in others. instant runoff is worse than fptp in several criterias and these failures are not only theoretical but happens in practice. Approval voting and more generally rated voting are strictly better than first past the post so I think are the obvious choices for reform.
(DIR) Post #ArJuy0nQ4N55W7dKue by shironeko@fedi.tesaguri.club
2025-02-20T20:01:57.465411Z
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@mcc @leon_p_smith the reason I mention approval rating instead of a more complicated rated voting system is again, it's not more complicated than first past the post. Ballots don't even need to be changed, just allow people to select more than one candidate
(DIR) Post #ArJvUBkurDTMm4o0UC by mcc@mastodon.social
2025-02-20T20:02:39Z
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@shironeko Okay. I would say that IRV and the condorcet-likes are strict improvements on FPTP in every way, and approval is at best something you could argue is potentially better than FPTP. I think the most important thing is to eliminate FPTP whereever it exists by whatever means is available, but I see no momentum anywhere for approval voting, and *some* momentum for IRV and math ranking, so I would consider it irrelevant.
(DIR) Post #ArJvUCYBu0t7EtrMI4 by shironeko@fedi.tesaguri.club
2025-02-20T20:07:39.864744Z
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@mcc IRV fails many criterias that FPTP does not, so it is not a strict improvement.
(DIR) Post #ArJvUFs9YFddXgDqK0 by mcc@mastodon.social
2025-02-20T20:03:43Z
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@shironeko This is in terms of what's the best way to influence the world. At a philosophical level, if ballots do not give the voter the ability to rank which candidate(s) they prefer, I don't think it should qualify as a "democracy".
(DIR) Post #ArJvULOb13YofkRK5I by mcc@mastodon.social
2025-02-20T20:05:43Z
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@shironeko (I'd consider manual top-two runoff voting to *potentially* count as "democracy", as that's sort of like a form of ranking.)
(DIR) Post #ArJvzmmlEPx4b5jdq4 by shironeko@fedi.tesaguri.club
2025-02-20T20:13:27.622749Z
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@mcc that's a trap though, it's like getting rid of coal by pushing natural gas, look what we ended up.
(DIR) Post #ArJwrZSWziMuu6v4oy by mcc@mastodon.social
2025-02-20T20:18:48Z
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@shironeko To reiterate, I think your opinions on IRV are wrong and I do not take them seriously. I don't see any reason why it would matter to you whether I agree with you on this, but it does mean you're not going to be able to productively argue to me consequences downstream from that position.
(DIR) Post #ArJwraBYIKNh9jz1zk by shironeko@fedi.tesaguri.club
2025-02-20T20:23:11.610450Z
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@mcc In IRV, people voting for their candidate could cause that candidate to loose, how is that an strict improvement over FPTP?
(DIR) Post #ArJyRnsIyTYZzboeUy by shironeko@fedi.tesaguri.club
2025-02-20T20:40:57.228802Z
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@mcc not some theoretical concern, IRV is an dead end https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Burlington_mayoral_election
(DIR) Post #ArKSSQKczRuvtCH9Lk by grumpybozo@toad.social
2025-02-21T01:55:31Z
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@mcc the sortition chamber should be a “common sense “ governance layer overseeing the actual legislative bodies. So,e.g. if a bill passes one house, the Vox Populi random folk could require the other to actually vote on it.