Post AqRwRRDZXzuAt9AWyO by futurebird@sauropods.win
(DIR) More posts by futurebird@sauropods.win
(DIR) Post #AqRFFpB2LWS3gzCNmK by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T11:00:01Z
1 likes, 2 repeats
Many people have said "teach everyone to code!" or cheer-leaded for "learning to code!" but there hasn't been enough discussion about what a Computer Science component to a liberal arts education ought to look like. In mathematics we have many lists and trees of what mathematicians think people ought to learn, what order it should be learned in.Not so in computer science. We just say "learn to code" this would be like if math people said "learn to integrate functions!"
(DIR) Post #AqRFUwXRG87Urnt0Hg by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T11:02:47Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
Notice that "integrating functions" is an outcome, a specific skill. A nice one that implies you know a lot of math... maybe. But not all math curriculums end there. There is a robust debate in math education about if we obsesses about The Calculus too much, everyone understands that doing some integrals isn't "knowing math."I think most CS educators understand something similar but there is much less consensus about what it is that we are teaching if not "how to code."
(DIR) Post #AqRFk11Wrh9j7b9DrE by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T11:05:33Z
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For me the major topics of a CS education for the general public are:* Computer Hardware * Encoding and Decoding* Logic and Control Structures* Iterration* Objects* Databases* Ethics and Applications* User Interfaces and DesignThis list keeps changing every time I revise my courses which is every year.
(DIR) Post #AqRFpXuI28AaYTOmh6 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T11:06:33Z
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@promovicz I do this! When I teach about sorting we sort numbered chips and cards. One of my major goals is to teach student that the concepts we learn exist in any computer language.
(DIR) Post #AqRFyXkfym28gFBzBA by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T11:08:10Z
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I always forget to add "History" and that is bad. I forget it in mathematics too, and I think this tendency causes big problems for both subjects.
(DIR) Post #AqRG8OJVvOLsIwBQAa by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T11:09:48Z
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@wmd I agree. However, as a HS teacher the resistance and total lack of support I get when I want to teach about networks is remarkable. And computer history should include a history of networks explaining why the internet is the way that it is.
(DIR) Post #AqRGQO2PglmSf4lWSG by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T11:13:11Z
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@pbloem AI is in my database unit. It's the reason I decided that doing a whole unit on databases was worth it. However, I'm only now developing these lessons for NEXT year. For the time being a "class discussion" is all that we have. Making a lesson isn't easy at all. Most of the lessons I've found from other on AI use way too many libraries and don't expose the inner guts enough for my liking. But wanting to "work from scratch" can make the lesson too difficult.
(DIR) Post #AqRGpFCdfsayV2Owq0 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T11:17:43Z
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@modulux We touch on the halting problem a little in the hardware unit of all places. We make a bit adder from transistors and logic gates. Talk about bootstrapping (but we don't do bootstrapping which I would like to change) then we talk about Turing machines and use https://turingmachine.io/ Basically, I want them to have some sense of where these machines come from, how they are made. A feeling that it's not just magic.
(DIR) Post #AqRHEk9niyjBk4EVPc by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T11:22:18Z
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@Anke @wmd You are totally right. The reason I have not done this, despite having more freedom than most teachers is how locked down our school network is, the fact that people panic when you talk about those topics for children.However those reasons also make it more important. There is a slim chance I might end up in charge of the entire CS curriculum for a school in the future as no one else wants to do it. I don't think people understand how huge this task can be if you do it right.
(DIR) Post #AqRHTnGoQrhzjzgmNE by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T11:25:01Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@wmd Any time you combine "the internet" and "children" people freak out. And not without reasons, but it's also very unhelpful. I have been trying to get an intranet set up for them to learn, but I get so little support doing this from IT. And I'm asking a lot of them! There are not a lot of off the shelf "educational servers" designed for kids to play with that have been tested for years and come with worksheets and lesson plans.I have to make all that from SCRATCH.
(DIR) Post #AqRHgcZPWfxcJtVMEi by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T11:27:20Z
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@grant_h I'm thinking about this less as a single course, and more "what should students learn by the time they graduate?" spread over many years, through many courses not all of which might be called "Computer Science."Some of my teaching time is called "Health and Wellness" for some arcane reason. But, they give me so little time I will take it.
(DIR) Post #AqRINQZW0l0LYlxuro by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T11:35:04Z
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@wmd I'm realizing a big part of the resistance I'm facing is because the adults I'm working with don't understand networks themselves, and they do really do want the best for the kids...But, it must be very scary to have someone talking about teaching this very powerful important dangerous stuff when you are scared of it yourself. I'm certain that the majority of our faculty (many who have PhDs in their subjects) couldn't *clearly* define what a server is.
(DIR) Post #AqRIXOJbFxTjSNGvrM by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T11:36:52Z
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@wmd We recently had a "professional development" day about AI. And the teachers here are more well-informed than most. I generally impressed. However we are all too old to have had such and education. It's something new we must create.
(DIR) Post #AqRJuEtGYzPMqCPgiu by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T11:52:12Z
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@Anke @wmd It's exactly the same as the notion that just not teaching sex ed will keep kids safe.
(DIR) Post #AqRKHqDjw84fHMFCFc by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T11:56:27Z
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@Anke @wmd There are a few very good resources in this area, I don't want to discount that work. It's just NOTHING like what I have to work with when I teach math. Planning lessons for math is a cake walk compared to planning for CS. I have so many choices, and so many *tested* lessons and resources. I know exactly what I'm preparing students for next year. I know what kind of tests they will see and what courses they might take in college. In CS there are so many blanks.
(DIR) Post #AqRLMuWdSVne233zyi by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T12:08:35Z
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@arclight This concern applies to math and all subjects and I've always thought the point of the "liberal arts" education was to position students with this stance towards everything they learn. This is why I'm talking about this in the context of "the liberal arts" education in particular. This isn't about training workers, or making "genius" that can be exploited. It's about making self directed curious people who don't just know many things but who know HOW to learn.
(DIR) Post #AqRLRJ2GGyiPCtx62K by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T12:09:23Z
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@david_chisnall "As a young subject, I think most departments still believe that you can teach all of computer science in an undergraduate degree."Oh dear.
(DIR) Post #AqRLZJWuJpwZ3a6ZfM by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T12:10:50Z
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@Anke @wmd It's really HS and Middle School so grades 5 to 12
(DIR) Post #AqRNxsyiNECZrAxLJg by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T12:37:40Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@jandi @wmd How much of a closed ecosystem is this? Sorry for being a little stand off-ish but I've wasted too much time looking into things that turn out to be too closed and not portable enough. It's part of my problem with scratch/code blocks: you can't easily and obviously cut and paste your code to run in a new place. (although I do use it in grade 6)I don't want to just teach students to use a software. Heck. I don't even want to just teach them one particular coding language.
(DIR) Post #AqRO8lu712ar6MzhM8 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T12:39:40Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@jandi @wmd "block based" coding has come a long way and I think the time students spend with it helps some of them to understand functions. I think it's horrible for iteration, but kind of nice for objects. I'm not "anti-snap" but I find it limiting very quickly.
(DIR) Post #AqRX2k5jk00PKXdCgC by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T14:19:25Z
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@kumarvibe I think it's important to remember most of the people this education is for will never work in CS. And this may be all they ever see of the subject.
(DIR) Post #AqRf9qb6kWq9AWCh72 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T15:50:20Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@bri_seven @jandi @wmd I think the point of scratch is to make things less frustrating. My 7ths graders will swear their code is identical to my example and it's just NOT.my code: function dance() { twirl(3); }7th graders: function Dance {twril(3}"why isn't it wooooorking? I have the exact same thing!"I mean that's part of what they are ready to learn at this age. They are so excited when they get it right.
(DIR) Post #AqRgehiFvsGaXopC1g by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T16:07:07Z
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@hal_pomeranz @wmd Doing this without support from IT would mean making our own wifi or mesh network? This is a nice idea but it's also a lot for me who has never set up such a network from scratch. Getting computers to play with is hard-- but knowing what software to put on them and why? I don't even know where to start. I did some work with Lora a few years back to transmit data several miles but the whole goal was to get it onto the regular internet. đ¨
(DIR) Post #AqRmRPbqWpl4MGs6im by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T17:11:56Z
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@nilesh @akkartik Is this a 5th through 12 curriculum? My understanding of AP CS was that it was a HS level version of an into college course for advanced HS student?So it kind of defines a possible endpoint but isn't exactly the same thing.
(DIR) Post #AqRmnBNK8EHuaASZVo by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T17:15:50Z
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@Mik3y What are you disagreeing with?I think you are assuming I'm saying something that I have not said.
(DIR) Post #AqRnQoYGPNwfNbTVBI by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T17:23:03Z
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@Mik3y Computer science is a lot more than just the theory of computer languages. And mathematics is a lot like a language, although I think it is similarly more broad but we could take a narrow definition to be "the language and structure of communicating logical arguments via proof."
(DIR) Post #AqRtFBA17fMzkYy7sG by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T18:28:09Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@apophis @wmd @jandi @bri_seven No. They get it eventually. I have to show them how to find () {} and [] on the keyboard and that they aren't the same. I also have to teach them *how* to copy and paste.They are scandalized and think I'm letting them "cheat" when I say "copy this line then make this change it's faster" when typing a program. But by the end they can really use the keyboard and understand the syntax of functions in a few different contexts.
(DIR) Post #AqRubup68ATHh9abho by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T18:43:29Z
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@Scmbradley @apophis @wmd @jandi @bri_seven Isn't that more of a graduate level or PhD research topic? I just teach grade school!
(DIR) Post #AqRuhufjba18xq4Nl2 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T18:44:34Z
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@Scmbradley @apophis @wmd @jandi @bri_seven I read most of a very interesting paper on several theories for quitting vim. Maybe someday someone will solve this.
(DIR) Post #AqRwHRqSMQcDwCapVI by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T19:02:11Z
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@hal_pomeranz It is not easy to connect to our school network. That is the issue. I need cooperation from IT to make such things possible and that means for the admins to tell IT that, yes, I really do need that kind of access.
(DIR) Post #AqRwRRDZXzuAt9AWyO by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T19:04:00Z
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@hal_pomeranz I can set up a router or work with home and public networks. A school network is not like either of these. So I assumed you were talking about making a parallel network separate from the internet. And that could be fun, but it's too much work. And I do not have any students who have done such networks. Just students who have configured a router which ... I mean I can do that myself.
(DIR) Post #AqRxQgheaX4uZzRfW4 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T19:15:04Z
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@trochee @JustRosy @wmd It nicely demonstrates the point I was raising about some of the problems that crop up when you try to talk about education for children and networks, though.
(DIR) Post #AqRxdDwOpvYN8jJusK by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T19:17:20Z
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@hal_pomeranz I don't think it's their fault exactly. There are few if any schools that are doing what I think we ought to be doing.
(DIR) Post #AqRygcTCC8bS2PqLpY by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T19:29:07Z
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@fociP @wmd Thing is we might need those things again. And that's just the kind of basic stuff I want them to experience. And really they would find fun ways to use it since so much of social media and other things are blocked at school. They could make their own little servers for fun things. (and this wouldn't be in conflict with the reasons such services are blocked since that's mostly about ... creeps.)
(DIR) Post #AqRzfN9bkmDiCWeOn2 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T19:40:07Z
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@fociP @wmd yeah hardware isn't the problem. Choosing the right software cooperation from school IT is. For example I've asked them to open the port on the intranet for FTP like three times and I don't know if this is impossible or what the hang up is. My students have to put files on our server with a stick disk and that limits the potential for it to be used. And I'm just asking for FTP(or something that works the same) on the intranet... not outside of school.ALTHOUGH
(DIR) Post #AqRznDoANvR5X3MeTw by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T19:41:33Z
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@fociP @wmd I just had an idea! I could write a script to copy files from a google drive (which the school uses all over the place) to the correct folder and students could upload code THAT way. Seems obvious now. But I won't know if there is some thing to block it from working until I go in physically and try it.
(DIR) Post #AqS0O3rgJhMPPMZi3k by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T19:48:12Z
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@EricLawton AI is in the database units and under applications. IMO it's not a big enough thing to be a whole topic unless we made IDK "compression" or "protocols" a whole section. It should however be included. Can't ignore it.
(DIR) Post #AqS3xjBMzTxXYATzFo by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T20:27:53Z
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@mikeloukides @fociP @wmd I don't think they are worried about viruses or hacking. They are worried about creeps from the wild internet chatting with kids and being creeps. And really so am I.
(DIR) Post #AqS4LoVArfuozwENu4 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-25T20:32:08Z
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@Mayabotics My secret is I'm also a math teacher. There is always work for math teachers. And frankly more than enough for CS, but I have to also teach everyone WHAT my job is and then do it too. I do not need to do this with math.
(DIR) Post #AqSVsBCMiDPLQ45i76 by Gupperduck@mastodon.social
2025-01-26T01:40:56Z
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@futurebird May I humbly suggest a very basic level - best practices of how to stay safe - password management, MFA, applying security updates, consider what and where you post, channels you use to communicate and so on.
(DIR) Post #AqT3tBgFnnQne5iuSe by Pdlaon@mastodont.cat
2025-01-26T08:02:05Z
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@futurebird I'm a grown up and I found scratch useful for me, because keeps the "how the logic of this works" from the "this is how you write this" and I'm a not detail oriwnted person.For me it's like learning music. With childreb you start with the logic of music and introduce music writting later when you have a basic understanding of how music works (I don't know if I made my point across, english is my 3rd language)
(DIR) Post #AqTL9MLVcARMZtJjSC by danyow@norden.social
2025-01-26T11:15:31Z
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@futurebird to this day, I wish for an accessible, visual representation of data-processing, and signal/event handlers in my programming. So I emphatically relate to âblock based codingâ helping with understanding functions.And I think it helps with building an intuition for when (and how) to draw diagrams for understanding larger software systems, too âŚBut itâs been **a while** since Iâve actually used a block based language. And I can imagine how bridging the gap is challenging.@jandi @wmd
(DIR) Post #AqTM7fLS6b2ksT2yy8 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-26T11:26:29Z
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If you asked experienced math teachers to list the core topics for k-12 math education you'd get a number of different lists, but the lists could be combined and grouped into what math education *is* (for better or worse) today. I'm looking to be able to do that same thing for CS. The one area I'm avoiding is so-called "digital citizenship" this includes "what happens when you post your photo online?" and "what is a good password?"This is taught in HEALTH class.
(DIR) Post #AqTMB1Ev9rPPeRahfM by benni@social.tchncs.de
2025-01-26T11:27:02Z
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@futurebird maybe there should be a topic about neural Networks and LLM. It would be very good If people would understand more about the mechanics behind this "magic".
(DIR) Post #AqTMEwaGPTrqN0RgAa by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-26T11:27:47Z
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@benni That's in the unit on Databases. And I do not think it's big enough to to a top level topic. But it is very important.
(DIR) Post #AqTMTTgS8tB157GqPI by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-26T11:30:25Z
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The online safety and basics of security are in health class because everyone knows it's so important it can't be an elective that some students never encounter. But, my radical proposal is that every student should have a foundation in CS so maybe it should be on this list if I'm not treating this like a list of things for the "super nerds" only.
(DIR) Post #AqTPaxzMAS6wxaNKKm by david_chisnall@infosec.exchange
2025-01-26T12:05:21Z
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@futurebird I'm not entirely sure about several of these:Computer Hardware What level is this taught at? Logic gates are fun, but most people struggle to understand how you go from 'and gate' to 'mobile phone'. That's a huge leap. If you take it a bit further and talk about memory and compute (and sequential execution) then you've got some useful building blocks you're straying quite a way from hardware because it's the abstractions that are the important bit.Encoding and DecodingIn the sense of encoding text as numbers and so on? Definitely core to computer science, but there's a lot there where even most practitioners don't really need to know the details, people who just want a side knowledge of computer science are going to get lost.The core learning I'd want from this is people to understand that you can represent anything with numbers. The rest of it is information theory, and I'd teach that without direct reference to computers, with problems like:Given 12 balls where one is heavier than the others, how many times do you have to weigh it to get the answer?Given 12 balls where one is either heavier or lighter (but you don't know which), how many times do you have to weigh it?Ans so on.Logic and Control StructuresI'm not sure what this is. Flow control? Conditional and repeated execution is important. The computer science unplugged curriculum had some nice things for teaching this.IterrationThat's weirdly specific.Objects & FunctionsIt's really easy to get into the weeds with details here. A few things:Do you think functions and procedures are the same thing?Are objects the C model (blocks of data), the Alan Kay model (simple models of computers that communicate by exchanging messages), a language-level representation of abstract data types, or something else?DatabasesTo actually understand databases, you need a solid grounding in set theory as a prerequisite. That seems a bit too specialised for a general class.Ethics and ApplicationsVery broad, but important. User Interfaces and DesignA lot of this also doesn't need to start with computers. The Design of Everyday Things has a bunch of good examples. Though you do get to have fun explaining to people why every dialog box on Windows has the buttons the wrong way around. This has a lot of overlap with psychology, but it's nice to show people that this side of computer science exists.Computer NetworksAt the very least, teaching people the difference between an application, a service, and a protocol, would make the world a better place.Computer HistoryAgain, this is very board and the value can change a lot depending on what it includes.The key thing that I don't see on the list is anything about systematic thinking and building abstractions. To me, these are the most important parts of computer-touching and run through a lot of the underlying computer science.
(DIR) Post #AqTPiEJRsDZ5cDEj7w by pencilears@mastodon.eternalaugust.com
2025-01-26T12:06:35Z
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@futurebird we had a visiting art critic come to my university and she seemed extremely disappointed that our art department didn't have any "new media" to show off.(New Media is physical art with basically robotics components: screens, motors, speakers, fiber optics, things like that)Which, she was talking to the studio art department, we were mostly all focused on the problems of traditional craftsmanship, but also nobody before my wife wanted to teach me to solder and program an Arduino.
(DIR) Post #AqTRLJnxUIiBtei5GC by ktoddbrown@social.coop
2025-01-26T12:24:52Z
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@futurebird please please please teach students what a 'file' and 'directory' are before they end up in my college classes. If you could touch on relative vs absolute path that would be great, but I would be happy if they just understood what a directory was and had a sense of file organization.
(DIR) Post #AqTUoNUr8kGFbiK6i0 by epicdemiologist@wandering.shop
2025-01-26T13:03:41Z
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@futurebird You might be able to sneak past the gatekeepers with classes in symbolic logic, particularly if you offer it as an alternative to math for people who allegedly aren't smart enough to take math. I found it extremely valuable.
(DIR) Post #AqTVcX9nUtK830OCf2 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-26T13:12:53Z
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@david_chisnall What would be your list? "I don't see on the list is anything about systematic thinking and building abstractions"That's done through: Encoding and Decoding, Logic and Control Structures, Objects & Functions and Databases. Systematic thinking (using and designing algorithms) building abstractions (modeling, variables, etc) could be math or physics topics. What makes it CS? This could be a misalignment of vocabulary. So it might be faster to tell me your list.
(DIR) Post #AqTVxmHoRTH13FGhV2 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-26T13:16:45Z
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@ktoddbrown Thank you for this reminder. I think we either assume people do not need to know about files structures and therefore do not teach it OR we assume they must already know it to be at the level they are but they do not.Meanwhile "we" are all self-taught. No one ever taught me about files. This would first come up in Hardware near then end, but I don't think that makes it "real" Maybe Networks should be "Networks and Files Structures" What would be an awesome memorable lesson? hmm
(DIR) Post #AqTW9jEvawFt4scMNc by david_chisnall@infosec.exchange
2025-01-26T13:18:52Z
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@futurebird Iâm not sure I have a list. Coming up with a good taxonomy for computer science is something Iâve struggled with. At a minimum, I would like people to understand how to decompose problems into smaller ones (induction can help here as a concept, but it!s often taught as an ends to itself) and how to think about unambiguously specifying things so that they can be automated. These skills are essential to programming but are also generally useful. Iâd also like people to learn some graph theory and queueing theory, because many real-world problems (as well as bits of computer science) depend on them.
(DIR) Post #AqTWjgEeF7SqBUd6uG by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-26T13:25:23Z
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@david_chisnall What do you think the most powerful theorems of graph theory are in a CS context?I love graph theory, but I find it's more about a framework for organizing problems, but it can feel thin on solutions. I'm glad someone else who cares about CS sees the value of graph theory but since it's never been allowed in the "standard" math, much like CS, it's not as focused and distilled as Algebra or Calculus. What is the "fundamental theorem of graph theory" what is the slogan?
(DIR) Post #AqTX0wkC7ITQJBcPdA by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-26T13:28:31Z
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@david_chisnall I kinda have to "silo" things if I'm going to say "I need you to devote X hours of instructional time to this and Y teachers because this is the minimum that we should accomplish for each student."If I don't do this the classes will not exist, the funds won't be allocated, nothing will happen.Naturally, once the time is set aside we can do so much more. And individual teachers can find their own way to touch on these goals.
(DIR) Post #AqTXk7RFCacWVXIKTA by david_chisnall@infosec.exchange
2025-01-26T13:36:39Z
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@futurebird Algebra and calculus are in the curriculum for different reasons. Algebra is important as a tool for abstraction. Being able to express a general solution by abstracting over concrete values is one of the most powerful tools that we have for thinking.Calculus is in the curriculum because of Sputnik. The USA redesigned the curriculum to produce people who could solve rocket equations to catch up with the USSR. Most of the western world copied this shift. In most cases, it is a complete waste of time. In the very few times when I have encountered a problem where the solution involved forming a differential equation, it never involved solving the equation because a computer can do that orders of magnitude faster than I can. The time I spent at school practicing these things so that I could solve one in 5 minutes instead of 30 was no help, given that I could enter on into a computer in a few tens of seconds and it could solve it in well under a second.I would happily kill 90% of calculus in the curriculum.Graph theory, to me, is closer to algebra. Itâs not that there are specific things like A* that are useful, itâs that itâs an important way of framing problems. Once you understand graphs, you can understand finite automata. You can understand Markov chains. And you can understand how data is represented in most modern programming languages. Itâs a tool for thought and the thing that gives it that property is, in part, the fact that itâs really hard to name the one thing that showcases it.
(DIR) Post #AqTYZmHP7AupwYKCJs by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-26T13:46:01Z
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@david_chisnall Teaching calculus just for doing physics is a missed opportunity. Calculus shows several reasonable ways to deal with infinity, counter intuitive aspects of infinite processes-- huge stuff. Just because it was put there for one purpose doesn't mean that's what it must be. If graph theory were taught by tens of thousands of teachers for decades it would change. Could be very exciting. Might we anticipate some of that maturity since this is unlikely to happen?
(DIR) Post #AqTYvTYFQWZ4EHY8o4 by jakob_thoboell@kirche.social
2025-01-26T13:49:52Z
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@futurebird "file structures need a clear home" I love this point! One of the most annoying points when doing family-admin-stuff is the lack of knowledge on the "real" data-path, when using Windumb-Libraries.
(DIR) Post #AqTYwgkZq5zTSEtXw8 by ktoddbrown@social.coop
2025-01-26T13:49:58Z
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@futurebird If you figure out an #AwesomeLessonPlan please let me know!
(DIR) Post #AqTZ6wFN4svePdBbay by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-26T13:51:57Z
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@david_chisnall This is a subtext of what I'm talking about here with curriculum development. Teaching and lessons are proven *in the classroom* you can plan all you want but until you try it with students you know very little. Class time is precious, knowing the pitfalls, benefits and bonuses of how you present each problem and challenge can make a huge impact on what students learn.A subject is forever changed by being taught to massive numbers of people many many times.
(DIR) Post #AqTZLwQWguRRJXYe6C by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-26T13:54:43Z
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@david_chisnall Were Calculus an obscure unsupported area of math and not promoted by outside forces it would probably be very difficult to teach as much as we do in the best-run courses. There are also negative impacts when a subject becomes "mandatory" it can be watered down, it can become test focused. And I think educators are more aware of the negatives than the positives.
(DIR) Post #AqTZRL1GgSHx2DJhjs by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-26T13:55:42Z
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@david_chisnall This also means that if we kicked out Calculus and put Graph Theory in its place I think many people would come to hate graph theory.But, there would also be benefits.
(DIR) Post #AqTZhKBpXIZX5wsdHs by dougbarton@mastodon.social
2025-01-26T13:58:33Z
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@futurebird just so. For over 2,000 years, educated people studied Euclid, The Elements. This was not so much to learn geometry, but rather to learn how to reason well. Which is why it' was such hard work. Learning to program is much the same. Teaching your mind to structure and decompose problems subject to objective criteria of "goodness"Speaking as a system engineer and computer scientist.
(DIR) Post #AqTZkiT7ixBRGOaPOi by fredb@mstdn.social
2025-01-26T13:59:09Z
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@futurebird I liked to include a computational thinking approach where concepts like caching, lists, objects and hierarchies, sorting and searching et al were explored with their uses outside computer class. I was initially attracted to coding because OO programming, Java, looked and behaved like poetry to me.
(DIR) Post #AqTZlvAbzBwIwhVBSK by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-26T13:59:23Z
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@emc2 I touch on a *tiny* version of this when we work with Turing machines, and spend some time trying to define what a computer even is. How might one reconnect with that idea when LLMs come up in the context of databases sorting and searches?For the HS students just dealing with the math and logic of searching is a lot. Hm. Maybe that's not the right place, maybe in "ethics" but I'm trying not to treat that section like a garbage taxon.
(DIR) Post #AqTaIMir5BERfFzQWm by irina@wandering.shop
2025-01-26T14:00:28Z
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@JubalBarca @ktoddbrown @futurebird When my kids had "digital lessons" in the late two thousand and zeros, it was more "windows for dummies" than anything else. What buttons to press rather than how things actually worked. (Grrr.)
(DIR) Post #AqTaIO2OC2S3k88Xc8 by irina@wandering.shop
2025-01-26T14:01:57Z
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@JubalBarca @ktoddbrown @futurebird The rationale was "you'll need that in your job later" but now it's later and practically none of what they learned is still relevant, whereas the basics (which they didn't learn) of course still are.
(DIR) Post #AqTaIOtZ0KzCP310Uq by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-26T14:05:08Z
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@irina @JubalBarca @ktoddbrown Treating education as job training really raises my hackles. Why educate the public? If the answer is "So they are smart enough to fetch my paper and serve my tea." I'm gonna have a big problem with that. If the answer is "because I make money by having other people build complex things so I need more people to do that." I'm still going to have a big problem with that. And parents should be alarmed by such notions. Too often though some are excited by this.
(DIR) Post #AqTaLJg0rah55R4F0K by david_chisnall@infosec.exchange
2025-01-26T14:05:45Z
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@futurebird For good examples of curriculum, there are two places Iâd recommend:Computer Science Unplugged has done amazing work. Some people I worked with were involved in developing the material and I was really impressed with the result.The new (by which I probably mean almost ten years old) GCSE Computer Science curriculum in the UK. This was created to be a useful introduction to the subject for 14-16 year olds. The BBC has some supplementary material. This is more designed as an on-ramp for a Computer Science degree rather than an âeveryone should know this about computer scienceâ. The curriculum is good, unfortunately most schools donât have good teachers and so itâs actually made things a bit worse for admissions (if you want to a school that offers this and the A level, you have a head start on the first six months of a degree, if you went to a school in a poorer area you either taught yourself or start a long way behind).
(DIR) Post #AqTaQ0eJ2DEfWPVUFE by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-26T14:06:35Z
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@spacehobo @david_chisnall Yeah. I have mixed feelings about that one. However, knowing how to beat a test is a skill that can be useful, and so is self reliance and self confidence. It's something.
(DIR) Post #AqTaRogIVBNQz1Ietk by irina@wandering.shop
2025-01-26T14:06:45Z
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@futurebird @JubalBarca @ktoddbrown We were alarmed by it. And tried to talk to the school about it, but they didn't listen. (All of our kids were more computer literate than their teachers, in fact, just not on Windows because we've been a Linux household since before they were born)
(DIR) Post #AqTauaDxKejCXjlDP6 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-26T14:12:11Z
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@david_chisnall Right now? If you know anything about Graph Theory it's because one of your teachers loved it or because you discovered you loved it yourself. But, it's also a subject that's easy to get into ankle deep, then you step right off the continental shelf and its very very hard. I would love to have the time to make the kind of lessons and materials that could help change that.
(DIR) Post #AqTb6ZBV1VEynHKFEG by hal_pomeranz@infosec.exchange
2025-01-26T14:14:19Z
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@futurebird @david_chisnall I always saw Calculus as the âpay offâ for slogging through a decade of lower maths. Calculus is where we can show kids where all those volume formulas they memorized come from. And it does have direct applications to âreal worldâ problems in engineering, physics, economics, etc.Unfortunately, itâs not taught like âCongrats! You just won maths!â Instead the emphasis these days seems to be on rote learning of the process for differentiation and integration. And thatâs sad to me.
(DIR) Post #AqTbLOxpIyx3RI0Je4 by jmax@mastodon.social
2025-01-26T14:16:59Z
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@futurebird @irina @JubalBarca @ktoddbrown It raises mine too, but if you don't value knowledge for its own sake - and most people, including most parents, don't - what other point to education is there besides "getting a decent job"?I don't support or agree with that view in the slightest, but as long as most people do, that's how education is going to be treated. As rote memorization of skills for a job, not as cultivating a mind.
(DIR) Post #AqTbRtKlIs9vMppJCq by llewelly@sauropods.win
2025-01-26T14:18:12Z
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@futurebird @david_chisnall everyone hated sentence diagramming. Well, except me; I thought it was neat, but was saddened to realize the simplistic approaches necessary to teach sentence diagramming to a class of 35 children made many common sentences impossible to diagram. Oh well ... (No; 35 is NOT hyperbole; I was in Utah.) And of course, nobody said "this is a weird niche application of graph theory, a much broader topic you might learn more about if you get a math or cs degree."
(DIR) Post #AqTbYX0SiMiy9BUulU by Asbestos@pnw.zone
2025-01-26T14:19:21Z
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@futurebird@irina @JubalBarca @ktoddbrown @futurebirdI remember some universities had "coop" education" or other things where you get an internship to get "real world experience" even as a kid I was like "you have the rest of your damn life to get "experience"
(DIR) Post #AqTcKOB0qZ6Sf6FjdI by simon_lucy@mastodon.social
2025-01-26T14:28:01Z
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@futurebird @david_chisnall I have this to read properly this week âGraph theory and combinatorial calculus: an early approach to enhance robust understandingâ, Springer Naturehttps://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11858-022-01407-wIn their ZDM-Educational journal which is OA. The usage of the term calculus in this context is weird to me but as a method of using Graph Theory to understand and teach Combinatorics what they describe is interesting.
(DIR) Post #AqTdGe8leTUiy6ywbY by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-26T14:38:34Z
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@emc2 That is too advanced for all but my 11th graders and 12th graders. The 9th graders who I introduce turing machines to are just learning what a proof even is. So I cannot prove "synthesis as undecidable" what I can do is show what a computer is and some of its limitations and how they come from the way it is constructed. And frankly I'm damn proud of doing THAT much.
(DIR) Post #AqTe2pFndSwVKuFElU by RogerBW@discordian.social
2025-01-26T14:47:14Z
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@futurebird @david_chisnall Sign me up for those! This stuff keeps coming up in various coding I do and I'd love to get a formal grounding in it rather than the bits I've picked up here and there.
(DIR) Post #AqTfLvojYaR79HG8HI by davew@mastodon.online
2025-01-26T15:01:47Z
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@futurebird This was my experience with topology. It is a short trek from donuts and coffee cups to very dense equations.
(DIR) Post #AqTg3PnBzB7SZDGyAq by quinn@social.circl.lu
2025-01-26T15:09:45Z
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@futurebird you forgot #1: information theory.
(DIR) Post #AqTgaVPk6ZclYi5DVo by dglloyd@fosstodon.org
2025-01-26T15:15:46Z
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@ktoddbrown @futurebird everythingâs a file, and what a file actually is, at a few different levels?
(DIR) Post #AqTh8xi1PbQ59x3yYS by astronot@mastodon.online
2025-01-26T15:21:52Z
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@futurebird someone on mastadon posted this site https://roadmap.sh/Its a crowd sourced list of what you need to learn for various IT roles with free online content for every skill listed.I have directed many of my coworkers looking to change roles or develop new skills to use it.
(DIR) Post #AqThDl1S0YQvGDRBZY by kittylyst@mastodon.social
2025-01-26T15:19:10Z
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@edsoldat @futurebird @ktoddbrown At the free code school that I'm on the advisory board for, we always have to include content on explaining basic concepts of filesystems - almost all of our intake has no real concept of it before they join us.
(DIR) Post #AqThamN59udQ6XX6uG by ErgonWolf@pawb.fun
2025-01-26T15:26:59Z
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@futurebird "Learn to code" is as impossible as "learn to integrate functions" if you can't math. I can't math, and was a web design pro right up until Javascript came in beside HTML. I could HTML all day long in brilliant ways but I can't math. So I can't code. It's annoying.
(DIR) Post #AqTi7iNj0sTBHrXSPQ by maco@wandering.shop
2025-01-26T15:32:53Z
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@futurebird @ktoddbrown I did get taught about files and folders in the 90s, in primary school computer classes.
(DIR) Post #AqTiFwtwufHMdUXORU by wesley@theatl.social
2025-01-26T15:34:24Z
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@futurebird @david_chisnall Graph theory is pretty fundamental to a CS education. I use concepts of graph theory all the time in my career. A lot of problems can be modeled as a graph, not to mention data structures like trees and linked lists. Even the fediverse can be modeled as graph to show how posts traverse the nodes in the networks according to follows and boosts. Knowing how to traverse graphs (breadth-first/depth-first search) is absolutely essential. I solve problems with this stuff maybe not every day, but often enough. Then there's state machines that build off of graph theory as well...I don't remember all the theorems and all that, but it's critical to know and apply it for computer science imo
(DIR) Post #AqTj5X9RtbsBpeNvay by cJ@mastodon.zougloub.eu
2025-01-26T15:43:45Z
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@futurebird We can do better than lists and trees.If there's not already a public curriculum graph, let's start one (eg. as a simple .dot file, for a start)?!Teachers may have some variations but there's some undisputable common stuff.I'd be glad to contribute.
(DIR) Post #AqTjFwnTOw8WGZ4V1s by david_chisnall@infosec.exchange
2025-01-25T12:12:12Z
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@futurebird For people who arenât going to be practitioners in the field, the history bit is usually the most valuable part of a science course. Anything else is a snapshot of current knowledge, but understanding how that knowledge is built and the misconceptions that led people down the wrong path is far more valuable.Even as a practitioner, often the hard part of understanding a system is not what it does, but what constraints used to exist that made people build it that way (and do they still exist?).
(DIR) Post #AqTkDk7Vf7nYKBxLQ8 by erik@mastodon.infrageeks.social
2025-01-26T15:56:27Z
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@futurebird @ktoddbrown This falls into the false belief that digital natives will magically know everything about computers because they grew up surrounded by them. The number of things I have to go over with students in *IT* courses is astounding (not talking first year either)
(DIR) Post #AqTmdhZzvjhVsnms4W by ngons@mathstodon.xyz
2025-01-26T16:23:31Z
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@david_chisnall @futurebird yes, exactly, and accessible materials beyond ankle depth is not easy to find!
(DIR) Post #AqTrtCRbxRBnis4dKC by llewelly@sauropods.win
2025-01-26T17:19:12Z
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@kittylyst @edsoldat @futurebird @ktoddbrown this is unfortunate, but it should not be surprising; most modern user interfaces function to confuse people about file systems. (That probably wasn't intentional until about a decade ago, but now corporations routinely push hard to exploit said confusion. )
(DIR) Post #AqTwtD5Y3vK5UWZuym by resuna@ohai.social
2025-01-26T18:18:25Z
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@futurebird Linux Cookie #81: "Can you program?" "Well I'm literate if that's what you mean".It's from one of Robert Anton Wilson's Discordian-but-serious books from the '70s. It was his idea, in 1975 or so, how people in the 21st century would interact with computers.I think it can be filed with the themes in SF novels of that period that by now pot would be universally accepted, tobacco would be illegal, asteroid mining would be commonplace, and negative income tax would be a thing.
(DIR) Post #AqTxiuJt5a9EL6w7nM by resuna@ohai.social
2025-01-26T18:27:46Z
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@futurebird @hal_pomeranz You should be able to set up a network that doesn't require any external connections. Don't even worry about getting name service up. Put everything in one subnet using net 10 and use IP addresses for everything. "http://10.0.0.1/lessions" on a raspberry pi.
(DIR) Post #AqU1CRDCAxr6c3Zy76 by TimWardCam@c.im
2025-01-26T19:06:43Z
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@futurebird It's great for those of us who really can "code", though. We get paid far more for fixing amateur messes than we'd ever be able to earn from just doing it right in the first place.
(DIR) Post #AqU1g6swJYwsG4Flzs by sun@shitposter.world
2025-01-26T19:12:10.550605Z
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@futurebird You don't strictly need CS at all to learn to code. You don't even need to learn software engineering but it would be good.Actually, everybody doesn't even need to learn to code, it's just not necessary and many people have no interest in it at all.
(DIR) Post #AqU2HIk9Bm6HkZsJRg by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-26T19:18:43Z
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@resuna @Anke @wmd Really? I thought it would start with what a network is and why you would want one. How would you explain it to a not very interested in computers 8th grader?I feel like they'd tune out if I started with packets. I'd start with asking for examples of networks they use and how they use them.
(DIR) Post #AqU2MBNxyLOYNWpNRI by meso@new.asbestos.cafe
2025-01-26T19:13:32.277170Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@sun @futurebird CS is shit
(DIR) Post #AqU5koWgOqnSaELEZM by calum@mastodon.dazed-gerbil.com
2025-01-26T19:57:41Z
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@futurebird @ianturton Okay, so if we select a single area for simplicity and base it around that, once everyone has learned the basics of COBOL they can go on to learn how to do EDI, KANBAN, flat file data stores (of course) and perhaps edge into VMS sysadmining - using miniVAX for cost purposes - while finishing off with concurrent algorithms to allow for multiple VAX working off one central data cluster.Sounds good?
(DIR) Post #AqU72PgZavzyhzvJdQ by Malcriada@mstdn.party
2025-01-26T20:12:06Z
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@futurebird do you think there's a space for a class that combines cyber security and financial literacy? I'm super concerned about young people being very under-banked and falling for weird apps that seem to be promising services most banks offer. A lot of what is offered by these budget apps can be done by downloading your transactions off any bank site.
(DIR) Post #AqUAz6yB7jQLbrq5q4 by resuna@ohai.social
2025-01-26T20:56:21Z
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@futurebird @Anke @wmd I mean before you get into things like servers. Make a game of it, with paper packets and students playing the roles of interfaces. Have the receivers assembled the messages and read them off.
(DIR) Post #AqUCmDoSZLyOyfH6ci by AMS@infosec.exchange
2025-01-26T21:16:25Z
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@futurebird @resuna @Anke @wmd Do HS students still pass (paper)notes? I feel like starting with mail and semaphores and telegraphs and telephones is the way to go. Communication networks are as old as the hills (that you need to ride around, or put clacks towers on). The real trick is how we automated things to do more communication with less overhead. And how that scaled to the internet.
(DIR) Post #AqUCxCU7qZLW2nzyyW by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-26T21:18:28Z
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@AMS @resuna @Anke @wmd I have them make secret codes, and put them all over the school...though this is more of a 5th grade thing and has more to do with encryption and encoding.
(DIR) Post #AqUDCYtumrdXuTO1LM by trachelipus@masto.ai
2025-01-26T21:21:08Z
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@futurebird @resuna @Anke @wmd At the very least, the network is so you don't have to tromp down three flights of stairs to see if your 3D print job is done yet. And so you don't have to run 400 feet of cable out the bedroom window and back in through the dryer vent to communicate with the printer in the basement.
(DIR) Post #AqUDQDOJYYdFFk7FBI by LibreFaso@hostux.social
2025-01-26T21:23:38Z
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@futurebird I don't really understand how you can do this except by learning to code ?I understand that "learning to code" is often taught in a way that is indeed similar to teaching calculus as you write, but my opinion (and little experience) is that it certainly can be taught as a liberal art.
(DIR) Post #AqUDUkxofyzmXDt41w by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-26T21:24:28Z
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@LibreFaso Learning to code is one of several things they should get out of all of this. One.
(DIR) Post #AqUDWw6KEt15ehuGXI by guyjantic@infosec.exchange
2025-01-26T21:24:54Z
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@futurebird my two cents as someone who has not put as much thought into this as you, but who also isn't a CS degree holder: I have been using the following two components for teaching my (college) students technical things, lately:1. Let interest or at least a high-level project/requirement drive things. I've had some success giving students a project, showing them some examples of how it might turn out, and working backward from there. You want to show this program is helpful? Gotta learn about numbers, measurement, and sampling distributions. Oh now you need to learn how to make a computer do some things for you...2. "Dessert first" approach. Idk if this will stand the test of time, but I often give students an outcome, then have them go through the motions (easier with software than with math?) to produce something similar, then work backwards again, learning the prerequisites for understanding what they just did.I'm not going to evangelize bc I don't know if this approach is what I'll use a year from now, but atm it feels like it is ok. Notably, it avoids some of the "you have to learn this boring stuff before you can do anything interesting" dynamic. Not that psych students are ever really *interested* in learning stats... It is a matter of degrees
(DIR) Post #AqUDbk9q4UtS3tqHNw by LibreFaso@hostux.social
2025-01-26T21:25:45Z
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@futurebird I agree, but isn't it also the way they'll learn most of the rest ?
(DIR) Post #AqUDd5kvFusFKwpZD6 by AMS@infosec.exchange
2025-01-26T21:25:47Z
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@futurebird @resuna @Anke @wmd The thing networks do is make it so you don't have to directly deliver your own message to the other end. You can focus on having easy communication with someone closer and chain that together (with trust and protocols and encryption and money) to get messages to the other end more easily than everyone doing it alone.
(DIR) Post #AqUGgLX9Llzj0CdFpY by Seanochicago@mastodon.sdf.org
2025-01-26T22:00:01Z
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@futurebird @resuna @Anke @wmd I would start with Fortnight and Minecraft. Thatâs what middle schoolers care about. Or even Insta or Snapchat. Or text messages. They live in a networked world. It shouldnât be hard to explain the concept with the tools they use.
(DIR) Post #AqUHl1R3bPTI4RZlHE by resuna@ohai.social
2025-01-26T22:03:18Z
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@Seanochicago @futurebird @Anke @wmd I'm talking about how you teach the technology. If you're going to teach the technology of networks you need to start with 1+1=2, not "you use Math to build a dam!".
(DIR) Post #AqUHl2M8BD7ovSHLEm by Seanochicago@mastodon.sdf.org
2025-01-26T22:08:06Z
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@resuna @futurebird @Anke @wmd Sure, but nobody learns TCP/IP in a vacuum. They need to know the why and how before they learn networking basics.
(DIR) Post #AqUHl3HYjh3vnZ9Cka by resuna@ohai.social
2025-01-26T22:10:41Z
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@Seanochicago @futurebird @Anke @wmd I'm talking about what you cover in a course on computers, not what you put in a Little Golden Book.
(DIR) Post #AqUHl3zW6GDxztiJGa by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-26T22:12:13Z
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@resuna @Seanochicago @Anke @wmd This is a conversation about 5th through 12 education.
(DIR) Post #AqUIJ4d6EUQJp6Rgcy by resuna@ohai.social
2025-01-26T22:18:24Z
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@futurebird @Seanochicago @Anke @wmd My daughter was under 10 when I explained packet switching to her, I'm not talking about explaining IP headers and flags and TCP being wrapped around IP and all of that I'm just talking about the basic concept that the network operates by sending little packets that are just fragments of information that travel independently. It can be explained to a child in 10 minutes and so much of the rest of networking depends on it.
(DIR) Post #AqUIfe5V55P2AJUccq by isotopp@infosec.exchange
2025-01-26T22:22:20Z
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@futurebird I gave my son Minecraft, Java edition, when he was 8.Heâs 14 years old now, works in Jetbrains IntelliJ, does Java, Go and Python and several other things, has a Discord for his minecraft server with 1000+ people in it, does moderation, team management, project management, and a bunch of other things.There was no order, just chaos, and everything all the time all at once.It was absolutely hilarious and awesome.
(DIR) Post #AqUJ2quFaWQsa8ISNE by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-26T22:26:42Z
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@isotopp It works out this way for some kids. It worked this way for some of us. Maybe we had a good teacher, or a parent, maybe we just found something that spoke to us in the subject and powered through the difficulties, the barriers, and the obstacles. Most people seem to end up closer to alienated from computers rather than empowered by them. Fearful of being exploited. Frustrated and confused. I think that is what has to change.
(DIR) Post #AqUJEMjdacBoTyp3xY by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-26T22:28:41Z
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@0x4d6165 When you say "application design" do you mean going from a set of parameters and needs to a small bit of software?Maintaining code... hooboy Yeah that is neglected. Also, including any consideration of the future in the design.
(DIR) Post #AqUJVCfqFZToCX4lzE by isotopp@infosec.exchange
2025-01-26T22:28:52Z
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@futurebird The point being here that the game is a very strong motivation for kids.It is moddable, and everybody mods it. To understand what goes on and to write your own, you need to learn a lot of things, Java, object orientation, build processes, compilers, decompilers, build systems, conventions, how minecraft itself works, 3d coordinate systems, linear algebra and linear transformations, it never stops.He wanted to do cool stuff, and that mean to tackle hard to learn things.I explained nothing unasked.That meant he had to try stuff out, had to learn to ask smart questions, find peers, build connections, and whatnot.It was very little work, really:-)
(DIR) Post #AqUJVDz1NkPqGJ3bWK by futurebird@sauropods.win
2025-01-26T22:31:48Z
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@isotopp A shocking number of young people aren't interested in computer games at all. In fact most of my students aren't even some of those who have taken to programming and building projects with the most enthusiasm. Games can be an entry point, but it can also limit the audience.
(DIR) Post #AqUJiGmaHkA2i0Sax6 by julesbl@mastodon.me.uk
2025-01-26T22:34:05Z
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@futurebird @isotoppI've been a developer for over twenty years and I still find them over complicated and frustrating, too many ways to do the same thing, poor interface design, unintuative and a smug sort of satisfaction from a lot of developers directed at those who struggle.
(DIR) Post #AqUMeQvcvA5isbYI2y by suzannesscala@sfba.social
2025-01-26T23:07:04Z
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@futurebird For a lesson⌠a scavenger or buried treasure hunt? Where the first clue is â../../treasure/location.txtâ or something?
(DIR) Post #AqUOwnnKqLJ8v2Yo7M by mkb@mastodon.social
2025-01-26T23:32:48Z
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@futurebird Iâve always believed calculus sits in an unfortunate spot in the curriculum. Calculus is widely disliked and comes at a time when many students, myself included, are deciding whether they will ever take another math class. This means math loses people prematurely. The dribs ans drabs of later math Iâve been exposed to â linear algebra, group theory, a lot of theoretical CS â are really interesting and calculus is in the way.
(DIR) Post #AqUOztoiuOV8SwgcwC by mkb@mastodon.social
2025-01-26T23:33:23Z
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@futurebird Is it realistic to get some rudimentary complexity theory in there?
(DIR) Post #AqUQBCEMt4yoiLdGm8 by LibreFaso@hostux.social
2025-01-26T23:46:37Z
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@futurebird The (not many, I reckon) children I taught Scratch were delighted and empowered.Those I see learning Scratch in school treat it as a chore.I'm not sure that Scratch/learning to code is at fault there.@isotopp
(DIR) Post #AqURwqbogCzNVesz7g by veer66@social.vivaldi.net
2025-01-27T00:06:25Z
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@futurebird I have read/heard related stuffs by @egrinagy@mathstodon.xyzmathstodon.xyz.
(DIR) Post #AqUSNsn6fts0613fPM by graydon@canada.masto.host
2025-01-27T00:11:19Z
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@futurebird I'd say "learn to code" is often a category error.Coding as a job got mis-categorized because it involved a lack of mess and high capital costs and offices; it's a trade, not a profession. Coding is like being a plumber. (The âhowâ changes, but the âwhatâ of the problem is simple and stable.)This leads to teaching fossil means, rather than (by analogy) concepts of pressure-tightness. But just like plumbing (or any other formal grammar), most would rather not know.
(DIR) Post #AqUVjyst06dTE8zSfA by Unixbigot@aus.social
2025-01-27T00:48:57Z
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@futurebird start with tin can telephones. kids can talk to each other in class but must use strings. Then show them the submarine movie âcrimson tideâ where all comms are via ship wide PA (eg: âConn, sonar, new contact bearing 221â). Thatâs original ethernet, but has lousy privacy and efficiency. Next they can pass folded up notes but all notes must go via the note trolley which goes around the room.
(DIR) Post #AqUb3qEzLWwRyxcNvM by crypticcelery@chaos.social
2025-01-27T01:48:28Z
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@futurebird @isotopp disclaimer first: I was one of those kids who got into the CS through games (though not quite sure which of three options right now).I think an overarching goal can be quite motivating. In university, I was part of a thing where we (tried to) high school (equivalent) students CS fundamentals based on building an âRCâ car they could control with their phones (arduino + provided laser-cut chassis + a bit of web development). ⌠(1/3)
(DIR) Post #AqUb3yRKrVZVPZSMHQ by crypticcelery@chaos.social
2025-01-27T01:48:28Z
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@futurebird @isotopp⌠Of course, some of this was just to much, e.g. starting with Arduino (simple C++) and then doing a bit of web development (for the remote) is quite the whiplash (timescale was 10 blocks of 90 minutes). And this was all with students who applied for it, so not representative of the general population.Maybe an idea could be providing multiple goals, which are part of the same collaborative project (e.g. team car and team remote).⌠(2/3)
(DIR) Post #AqUvdA3Zf3p0euOkng by msftcangoblowme@mastodon.social
2025-01-27T05:39:01Z
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@futurebird Open a school of wizardry where 80% of the curriculum is on coding.This would have to be supported by society as in adequate funding.Only want students who are deadly serious. Everyone else can go to the equivalent of daycare.
(DIR) Post #AqV3avkyelFVMX9B6O by LibreFaso@hostux.social
2025-01-27T07:08:16Z
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@futurebird Thanks for this perspective, it's the first time that I hear it - I always had 100% enthusiasm when I asked children whether they wanted to learn to make games.(sure, I only ever addressed volunteers)What entry point do you use if this particular one is closed, then ?@isotopp
(DIR) Post #AqVvDNxlWtzzPwLn6m by billseitz@toolsforthought.social
2025-01-27T17:09:03Z
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@futurebird what does "component" mean here? A 1-semester class? 2 semesters?
(DIR) Post #AqWmLpAtXIFPhUOtm4 by stevenaleach@sigmoid.social
2025-01-28T03:04:27Z
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@futurebird I've found that in my own basic computing I do everything in #Jupyter notebooks these days - working out and documenting whatever I'm doing cell by cell, examining and displaying data, plotting stuff, etc.I suspect that this might be a fantastic way to teach CS - teaching just enough #Python, #Matplotlib, #Markdown, etc. to use notebooks as a go-to tool for just *doing* stuff (especially exploring data).Whether iteratively developing a tool, exploring data, physics, math, etc.
(DIR) Post #AqWpxsr2bQkXynxCWO by Thad@brontosin.space
2025-01-28T03:44:55Z
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@futurebird I kind of came at it from the opposite direction: when I was a CS undergrad at Northern Arizona U ~20 years ago, they introduced an "Interdisciplinary Minor in Linguistics" to get us to take more liberal arts classes. I guess I'd have been one of the first dozen or so to graduate with one. Don't know if they still offer it.Lib arts classes I remember: linguistics, developmental psych, 1 year foreign language.CS classes I remember: principles of languages, compilers.
(DIR) Post #AqX1KI5cYh926zf14y by lufthans@mastodon.social
2025-01-28T05:52:14Z
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@futurebird @apophis@brain.worm.pink @wmd @jandi @bri_seven What do you call (), {}, [] and <> when teaching?I tend to call them:() - parens or round brackets{} - curly brackets ( but often revert to curly braces )[] - square brackets<> - angle bracketsI think that by calling them brackets I get the students ( CC and workplace settings ) to think about them as programming symbols rather than human language punctuationI might be projecting :)I hope I also get them to think in pairs
(DIR) Post #AqXS0j4BFPGKkWskJU by david_chisnall@infosec.exchange
2025-01-25T12:07:43Z
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@futurebird I think âlearn to codeâ is not quite the same as âlearn mathematicsâ or âlearn Englishâ. To me, itâs like learning to write or learning arithmetic. A few hundred years ago, we didnât teach most people to read and write, and youâd hire a scribe if you needed something read or written. Some people opposed universal literacy on the grounds that there werenât enough jobs for scribes. I see learning to program in the same way, itâs not that everyone should become a professional programmer itâs that most jobs (and many non-paid-work tasks) would benefit from some automation but not quite enough that itâs cost effective to hire a professional, enabling everyone to reach this level is useful. Just as everyone can write a shopping list, but not everyone can become a novelist, or everyone should be able to add a few numbers but not everyone can become a mathematician: the former skill is a prerequisite for the latter (well, maybe not arithmetic and mathematics, given some mathematicians I know).Defining what should be on a Computer Science curriculum is much harder. As a young subject, I think most departments still believe that you can teach all of computer science in an undergraduate degree. You wouldnât expect to do a physics or maths degree and learn the entire subject, youâd expect a very high-level overview and a deep dive into a few bits. Until computer science education is framed in that way, you wonât see a good taxonomy of knowledge and skills in the field.
(DIR) Post #AqXS5EnBEY2EIt57gm by ebaum@mastodon.social
2025-01-25T20:50:13Z
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@futurebird Mark Guzdial at UMichigan is a good resource for this. Much of his research focuses on this need, and he teaches undergrad courses on media computation for non-CS majors.
(DIR) Post #AqXS5FozPJ4nUmw59E by julesbl@mastodon.me.uk
2025-01-25T19:31:19Z
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@futurebirdI teach at Codebar, get so many women who thought they had to be designers or artists cos they were girls, it's ridiculous, so glad to give them a start on other options
(DIR) Post #AqXS5hbU76uXf0pgzA by RogerBW@discordian.social
2025-01-25T11:29:22Z
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@futurebird The serious CS types I've met regard writing actual code as way, way beneath them. But the relatively abstract and maths-heavy CS has become conflated with "learn the framework of the month, get a job" CS.
(DIR) Post #AqXS5zFSVjzINufM9Y by davep@infosec.exchange
2025-01-25T12:47:03Z
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@futurebird @jandi @wmd I learned programming before object orientation was adopted and I never really liked it.I always liked the algorithmic purity of the Jackson Structured Programming design technique (top-down, stepwise refinement). I'm now curious about Rust as it seems amenable to an adapted JSP approach using BPMN notation, that I now use for business requirements down to algorithmic design. If a document doesn't move, slap a BPMN diagram in it. I've resolved 18-month old business requirement issues between client and vendor in large scale projects with this approach. It's bloody great.Sorry, needed to get that out for some reason đ¤Ş
(DIR) Post #AqXS68cpeD21T0feKm by Scmbradley@mathstodon.xyz
2025-01-25T18:41:05Z
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@futurebird @apophis @wmd @jandi @bri_seven ok kids, today were going to learn how to quit vim
(DIR) Post #AqXS6tJe3MbuH73US8 by lampsofgold@veoh.social
2025-01-25T11:18:59Z
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@futurebird Computer History is straight-up relevant to my computer-touching job regularly, in part because we've barely advanced computers in 50 or so years, and in part because knowing the history of a system helps you make educated guesses about it's present.
(DIR) Post #AqXS6vJ0ehI4Rim0jw by hydropsyche@ecoevo.social
2025-01-25T12:56:32Z
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@david_chisnall @futurebird I agree with this with the caveat that we have to be very intentional in how we teach it because students are weird sponges and sometimes only remember the hypothesis that was found to be wrong, without remembering the wrong part.And this is why I don't talk about Lamarckism during intro biology anymore. Way too many of them grasped onto inheritance of acquired characteristics because we talked about it first and never learned how evolution actually works.
(DIR) Post #AqXS71qYKtgejUVsrA by RosyMaths@mathstodon.xyz
2025-01-25T11:26:23Z
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@futurebird I like these. Bookmarking for later. The aim of my middle school "Computer Science" course is to teach them enough that they can use coding as a tool for other topics, and also that they can think logically and be safe online. So I split it up into 4/5 main topics.*Computational Thinking*Programming (Scratch and Python, including explicit instruction in selection, iteration, program design and recursion)*Digital citizenship*How computers work (includes history)In the lower years we also do a typing course and some work learning Google suite (school choice) and by their last year the interested ones do some Arduino and robotics and the others pick from a fantastic online academy (Grok Learning) to do courses that interest them, or a personal project. We don't offer Computer Science as a final year subject so it's very much about teaching useful skills and enough knowledge that they can understand tech news and pick it up again later if they want to.
(DIR) Post #AqXSBCaCMRUxBlqyp6 by Tak@glitch.taks.garden
2025-01-25T17:33:17Z
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@futurebird @bri_seven @jandi @wmdI feel like something we're missing is a mobile-first interface to programmingIt should be possible to make a simple program on your phone in the time it takes to make and post a tiktok
(DIR) Post #AqbAlcn9NC9gMAyA7c by JoshuaACNewman@xeno.glyphpress.com
2025-01-25T15:46:51Z
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@futurebird @jandi @wmdItâs weird becuase itâs designed primarily for sound, but #plugdata is what Iâm working on developing a pedagogy around. https://plugdata.org
(DIR) Post #AqbAlef4QCse9hCjo0 by gizmomathboy@mastodon.xyz
2025-01-25T17:47:37Z
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@futurebird @jandi @wmd this is to me the hands down best introduction to progressing I've ever readIt doesn't "waste" time explaining things. All you need is a browser and an internet connection. Although wrist case scenario you grab the JavaScript library/file he uses to program in the browser and see about hosting it locally. There are some excerpts of the book on that pageReal code, low friction to create something like a sphereEasy for kids to explore freelyhttps://pragprog.com/titles/csjava2/3d-game-programming-for-kids-second-edition/
(DIR) Post #AqbAlltrVbs6bbB9Ki by gizmomathboy@mastodon.xyz
2025-01-25T17:50:16Z
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@futurebird @jandi @wmd also, you go step by step towards making a game that runs in the browserAlong the way it introduces programming concepts as you run into/need them I cannot recommend it more or give it higher praise
(DIR) Post #AqdDJrdjGNnWTew9U8 by Thad@brontosin.space
2025-01-28T03:46:07Z
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@futurebird Principles of languages was effectively a history class too, b/c you have to understand CS history to understand why different languages are the way they are.Compilers was pretty advanced, not something I'd recommend as an introductory class for a lib arts student, but extremely informative for someone who wanted to study both programming and natural language. All the lexicon/syntax/semantics mirrored what I learned in the linguistics and dev psych classes surprisingly closely.
(DIR) Post #AqdDJsjnBKF3skmVZg by Thad@brontosin.space
2025-01-28T03:54:50Z
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@futurebird If we're talking about useful CS general-knowledge stuff, your list is excellent. When you say encoding/decoding, does that include basic number theory/cryptography? Because if not, then that's the only thing I can think of that I'd add.Like, people don't need to be experts or anything, but it's useful to have a basic understanding of how public key encryption works. (I've seen far too many people ask "If we can have online banking, why not online voting?")