Post AolpdsHzFzFuwempzk by whknott@mastodon.social
(DIR) More posts by whknott@mastodon.social
(DIR) Post #Aolm9VFg2pRwwjX4QS by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-12-06T12:58:44Z
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Your life depends on millions of people. You and I need millions of people. We can’t know them all. We will never meet them all. But, self-sufficiency is an illusion, often an expensive and thinly drawn one at that. The more high tech and comfortable your life is? The more true this is.I do not care if you have a cabin in the woods. I do not care if you “reject modern medicine” — This is one of those things I find “obvious” but I can imagine it starting a big argument for some.
(DIR) Post #AolmQSEGXJo4UhxHdo by LJ@zirk.us
2024-12-06T13:01:33Z
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@futurebird the whole myth of independence needs to get blasted into the face of the sun.Humans survived only because of interdependence, cooperation and community. That was true in our anthropological past and is still true.
(DIR) Post #AolnZIHJ0Ft6Bz9j8q by davidtoddmccarty@me.dm
2024-12-06T13:14:35Z
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@futurebird @Lichtenbergian It’s why libertarianism is such a joke.
(DIR) Post #AolnbMjlOahsbJSGGm by BashStKid@mastodon.online
2024-12-06T13:14:54Z
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@futurebird in many ways, it’s the same argument that was misrepresented as ‘you didn’t build that’. Too many successful folks forget the broad swath of other people that were an essential part of getting where they are. Rugged individualism is a hell of an ego trip.
(DIR) Post #AolpdsHzFzFuwempzk by whknott@mastodon.social
2024-12-06T13:37:44Z
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@futurebird I love to watch the 'survivalists' surviving 'alone in the woods' while wearing modern textiles. Like, dude, your clothing literally came from an oil well, how are you 'self-sufficient'.
(DIR) Post #AolprBIBukcTeCE9Ls by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-12-06T13:40:15Z
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@whknott Also you didn’t die in childhood because (if not you) all your peers were vaccinated.
(DIR) Post #AolpxiVfKH2ePGe85A by UtilityNerd@dice.camp
2024-12-06T13:41:23Z
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@futurebird Marian Call actually has a song about this. Check out Independence on this album: https://mariancall.bandcamp.com/album/standing-stonesI really like her work.
(DIR) Post #Aolpz1gnVD4iBFTfBA by mhanson101@union.place
2024-12-06T13:41:31Z
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@futurebird @whknott and food was readily available because of huge amounts of labor and technology
(DIR) Post #Aolq6CYLVfj3ttwhHs by whknott@mastodon.social
2024-12-06T13:42:50Z
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@futurebird And a million other reasons. That steak you ate didn't die of a nasty infection because modern ag practices have eliminated screwworm.Etcetera
(DIR) Post #AolrDqcZ2ImQ9P82Lo by doctormo@floss.social
2024-12-06T13:55:31Z
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@futurebird I've considered the idea that money is "the ability to get other people to do things for you", it's effective because of how many people you can get to help you without ever knowing them.The idea does point to how sick "money for nothing" asset farming is. It's all about getting other people to serve them, while they never have to server other people. It's as close to owning people as we get, but instead of owning whole persons, its owning shares in thousands. 😬
(DIR) Post #AolrRabzM4YyYLPbk0 by P2@c.im
2024-12-06T13:58:01Z
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@futurebird Humanity was always a failure. Democracy is a joke. I hope I never have to come here again.
(DIR) Post #Aolralv8g6yIEVkR5U by whknott@mastodon.social
2024-12-06T13:52:02Z
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@Nazani @futurebird There is insufficient biomass of furbearing animals extant to permit garmenting all of the survivalists, yes.
(DIR) Post #Aolramrz9K2jB1HQoK by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-12-06T13:59:41Z
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@whknott @Nazani And without all those millions to whom would they be proving that they didn’t need anyone to? It all sounds a lot less fun if you didn’t have to fight to escape perceived dependence. Maybe early humans, in the bottleneck years, dreamed of waking over the next ridge: meeting new people who knew things, who made things, who might help keep the little campfire from guttering out in the darkness of those pleistocene nights.
(DIR) Post #AolsBPw5NbiAlNfGzo by david_chisnall@infosec.exchange
2024-12-06T14:06:17Z
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@futurebird Any people who are the relevant flavour of geek will enjoy this explanation of Objectivist-C from 12 years ago.
(DIR) Post #AolsLQuSc8OmgAgFBA by mloxton@med-mastodon.com
2024-12-06T14:07:53Z
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@futurebird Yup, we are a thin-skinned critter with no armoring, stinger, sharp spines, or even a stink gland. No claws, funny little jaw and blunt teet, and muscle strength ~1/7 that of other apes.Our super power is heat tolerance and coordinated action. Without other people and a ton of tech, we live miserably and die very quickly
(DIR) Post #Aolt27lnePGvlpzCfw by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-12-06T14:15:51Z
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@david_chisnall *fountainheader* OMG 😆
(DIR) Post #AoltBIx9RRRT3ofnrk by bovaz@mastodon.online
2024-12-06T14:16:16Z
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@whknott @Nazani @futurebird the survivalists could just huddle together, couldn't they?
(DIR) Post #AoltBKT5oAaPlAcpI8 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-12-06T14:17:29Z
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@bovaz @whknott @Nazani sounds gay.
(DIR) Post #AoltDVrYPlMrg86lf6 by michael_w_busch@mastodon.online
2024-12-06T14:17:51Z
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@futurebird The TV "Lost" had a great many problems.But "Live Together, Die Alone" was still a pretty good line.
(DIR) Post #Aolu5E2gt0u62yvgLA by bovaz@mastodon.online
2024-12-06T14:27:35Z
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@futurebird @whknott @Nazani however, if the reality tv my father watches taught me anything, from the huddle many voices will rise saying something along the lines of "no homo"
(DIR) Post #AoluRV2mM8XZ9Aaki0 by gpilz@mastodon.social
2024-12-06T14:31:36Z
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@futurebird The urge to proclaim your self-sufficiency is rooted in a desire to escape the moral obligations of inter-dependency. I actually find hope in this because it indicates that these people understand, perhaps some level that may not intrude on their consciousness, that we are all morally responsible for one another's welfare. This make them far better than the sociopaths who understand that we are inter-dependent but don't feel any sense of moral obligation to their fellow humans.
(DIR) Post #AolvsOYYgTV6ncqRrU by JamesWidman@mastodon.social
2024-12-06T14:47:41Z
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@futurebird related: there's a genre of youtube videos of people being "self-reliant" in the quasi-wilderness. I was watching one (i think it was even called "my self-reliance") where a dude reviews all the stuff he's planning on taking into the woods (which filled a portable plywood cabin, built from materials from a hardware store), and like... the supply chain on his cast-iron skillet *alone* had to involve hundreds if not thousands of people. I don't think he acknowledged this.
(DIR) Post #AolxuImzIVEPOrdC64 by profdc9@mastodon.social
2024-12-06T15:10:25Z
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@futurebird Don't worry, all those billionaires in their bunkers will last a long time without hospitals, ample spare parts, fossil fuels, fresh food, and a water supply. These billionaires have shown themselves to be meticulous planners and not at all impulsive and dogmatically irrational. After all the biodome projects have been such great successes, and those were devised by experts.
(DIR) Post #Aolyh6KaPAVcx3cEwS by asakiyume@wandering.shop
2024-12-06T14:59:29Z
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@futurebird THIS IS SO, SO TRUE, and always has been. NO ONE ever existed without the help of a community.
(DIR) Post #Aolz0yv1fngrkq8jmi by McsaMatt@infosec.exchange
2024-12-06T15:22:51Z
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@futurebird @trending_bot My daily goal is to be one of the millions helping further the common goal of humanity, and not one hoarding and hindering. The things I do towards self reliance are only where I can help unburden others, ie emergency preparedness. My hope is that my efforts in that regard help others, even if I’m not around.
(DIR) Post #Aom0Zu0S1tTMbltQ00 by Satvik123@mastodon.social
2024-12-06T15:40:19Z
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@futurebird I totally support this ideology
(DIR) Post #Aom0lS1xrs7NJo6jlQ by Satvik123@mastodon.social
2024-12-06T15:42:27Z
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@futurebird i
(DIR) Post #Aom0tijFfUxtQKIXJo by Satvik123@mastodon.social
2024-12-06T15:43:56Z
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@futurebird I totally support this ideology.
(DIR) Post #Aom4UADvDkrwz5iGIK by PizzaDemon@mastodon.online
2024-12-06T16:24:05Z
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@futurebird Last year I started a phone conversation with my sister, "You know how I'm contemptuous and dismissive of every person outside the extended pizza supply chain..."
(DIR) Post #AomAW9af95MxKBgKP2 by mister_shade02X2@mastodon.social
2024-12-06T17:31:42Z
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@futurebird Yeah. People have never been fully self sufficient. Having a cabin and maybe a couple survival skills doesn’t count.Our distant ancestors *collaborated* to create the first human civilizations. Collaboration. Teamwork. And yeah, those civilizations all had problems. But we’re not done trying to build a better house.
(DIR) Post #AomE0AsTDwV3ro1A4e by glennsills@dotnet.social
2024-12-06T18:10:47Z
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@futurebird Yeah, humans are a bit like ants but less resilient and charming.
(DIR) Post #AomE9dc7khD3b5stai by glennsills@dotnet.social
2024-12-06T18:12:29Z
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@futurebird Yeah, humans are a bit like ants but less resilient and charming. As far as I know, humans are the only species where individuals become assholes to impress other assholes with their assholery
(DIR) Post #AomO59SiucsmT0zF9U by CStamp@mastodon.social
2024-12-06T20:03:41Z
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@futurebird Self-sufficiency depends on how much of your life you want to spend on working to be self-sufficient, how much leisure time you want, how much you want to be connected to different cultures, parts of the world. There are indigenous folk who are still capable of living off the land, but it is an insulated lifestyle, very dependent on weather, hunting and growing seasons.
(DIR) Post #AomT8D9i8WkyYrN8Ii by JamesWidman@mastodon.social
2024-12-06T15:19:24Z
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@n8chz @LJ @futurebird it's weird to define "independence" as "having or obtaining money" though.wait, no, it's not "weird"; it's just wrong.The only reason to obtain money is to exchange it for goods & services, which do not exist/occur without other people's labor. In other words, the *only* reason to get money is to depend on other people.
(DIR) Post #AomT8F0ZFUdCJ56rKK by JamesWidman@mastodon.social
2024-12-06T15:19:50Z
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@n8chz @LJ @futurebird Like, if you buy a cast-iron skillet, you're depending on: - people who dug iron ore out of the ground;- people who converted the ore into ingots; - people who took the ingots and cast the iron into skillet shape;- transportation & warehousing workers between each of these stages.- transitively, people who supplied equipment used by all of the people mentioned above.- etc
(DIR) Post #AomT8G0bWqFrPU8P1U by crazyeddie@mastodon.social
2024-12-06T15:31:08Z
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@JamesWidman @n8chz @LJ @futurebird I once went on a drunken walk to the store to buy more beer. I found a hammer.This hammer fits in my hand so well I had this weird spiritual experience where I contemplated all the human effort that went into perfecting a simple tool. It's a perfect hammer, built to fit in the human hand perfectly so that you can have a loose grip and even let it slide down to exactly the correct place to hold it. It's amazing. I almost got my ass kicked showing it off.
(DIR) Post #AomT8G6HBkn9h4mvrc by JamesWidman@mastodon.social
2024-12-06T15:34:10Z
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@n8chz @LJ @futurebird If you *try* to be fully independent, e.g. by going into the woods without any artifact that you yourself did not fashion *exclusively* from items found in nature, **even then**, you will almost certainly benefit from information about survival that you previously learned from other people. Meaning: you will have *depended* on people who communicated that information to you.
(DIR) Post #AomT8Ghqw2qjZcMwQy by crazyeddie@mastodon.social
2024-12-06T15:37:38Z
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@JamesWidman @n8chz @LJ @futurebird This hammer is a technological marvel. It's clearly been designed with the aid of computers. They must have modeled the hand and simulated a bunch of times or something. It does not have a straight handle. It's got a curve and it expands in the curve. The forged metal and fiberglass are fused somehow perfectly...I don't know how it was done. This thing was used a lot, it must have fallen of a painter's truck. They're sad.The oldest tool of human kind.
(DIR) Post #AomT8HCh5NWH7GnZVQ by JamesWidman@mastodon.social
2024-12-06T15:35:16Z
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@n8chz @LJ @futurebird If interdependence were not a fundamental trait of being human, we would not need the ability to speak. And nature doesn't like to waste resources on unnecessary features. Our capacity for language proves that we're *supposed* to be interdependent.(or, in evolutionary terms: interdependence was much more advantageous to our ancestors than solitary life.)
(DIR) Post #AomT8HQAHIILn36KVE by JeffGrigg@mastodon.social
2024-12-06T15:57:57Z
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@crazyeddie @JamesWidman @n8chz @LJ @futurebird They probably did use CAD (Computer Aided Design) for that hammer (head & handle). But I'm sure that the basic shapes and design date from long before computers!Let's not underestimate clever and capable human hands on "raw materials."
(DIR) Post #AomT8HyYDRnhVhBn6G by ozdreaming@infosec.exchange
2024-12-06T20:52:05Z
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@JeffGrigg @JamesWidman @n8chz @LJ @futurebird And evidence of the engineering prowess of our ancient ancestors keeps piling up. Witness the dolmen of Menga! https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-47423-y(From the conclusion: "The quarrying and transportation of the massive stones from Cerro de la Cruz to the hill of Menga must have demanded intensive planning, highly accurate logistics and enormous labour investments. From these results, it can be inferred that the woodwork associated with the construction process must have also demanded the use of large amounts of timber. Considering the ramp construction and the size, number (over 30 large stones) and fragility of the stones, the construction of Menga embodies a unique accomplishment representing the state-of-the-art in megalithic engineering in prehistoric Iberia and possibly in Europe. Menga stone C-5 emphasizes the magnitude of this achievement as it is the largest stone used in a composite megalithic monument and it is also a soft stone used as a cover slab which requires a high level of technical proficiency.")
(DIR) Post #AomTOXGn7VjVZsT4q0 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-12-06T21:03:15Z
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@ozdreaming @JeffGrigg @JamesWidman @n8chz @LJ Even if you are a stone age introvert (or an introvert of any age) more people mean more possibilities. Better conversation! Better projects and cooking! Some else who understands you hate talking sometimes who will text you or write in the sand even if you are in the same room/cave!Alone alone is not that great alone together can be grand.
(DIR) Post #AomVGcejPWDLsG1Jqa by llewelly@sauropods.win
2024-12-06T21:24:14Z
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@futurebird @ozdreaming @JeffGrigg @JamesWidman @n8chz @LJ I am a stone-cold introvert, and yet, here I am. I only wish I had someone to teach me flint knapping, so I could do the stone age part better, although my hand-eye coordination is dreadful.
(DIR) Post #AomXqYAnkqBeIwHQsi by tasket@infosec.exchange
2024-12-06T21:53:05Z
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@futurebird Yes lets have a bigger fediverse, plz!
(DIR) Post #AomaFZQAS589K3Wf1k by va2lam@mastodon.nz
2024-12-06T22:19:59Z
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@futurebird Deb Chachra's _How Infrastructure Works_ is so very much about this, though at greater length than your toot.
(DIR) Post #AomaYhKVGvIfLvzsrA by kurtn@toot.bldrweb.org
2024-12-06T22:23:31Z
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@futurebird @ozdreaming @JeffGrigg @JamesWidman @n8chz @LJ Not all the time, maybe, but alone alone can be pretty awesome.
(DIR) Post #Aomb5I4mBYYwaPBMQa by aud@fire.asta.lgbt
2024-12-06T22:02:35.026Z
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@futurebird@sauropods.win I kind of want someone to respond with "I live in a cabin in the woods! I'm self sufficient! I depend on no one" because then, you know, how are you posting that response buddy you have magic ethernet powers? you just think and your thoughts propagate across the internet via ActivityPub?
(DIR) Post #AombIyc5LP4cHHHw4u by dx@social.ridetrans.it
2024-12-06T22:31:53Z
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@futurebird I know it’s not your point, but an interesting question is: What is the smallest human population that could sustain a modern lifestyle?
(DIR) Post #AomfaQCyOq2ebM7Gsa by TerryHancock@realsocial.life
2024-12-06T22:37:29Z
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@CStamp @futurebird "Self-sufficiency" is false if taken absolutely, yeah. But there's an abject precarity and brittleness in our society, when everything depends on Just-In-Time delivery and absolute 24/7 connectedness that is very dangerous.When something breaks (e.g. pandemic, war, pogrom) this causes HUGE social and economic waves of suffering because some supply link fails.Redundancy is good.
(DIR) Post #AomflAV58qFj4Ni8ZM by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-12-06T23:21:49Z
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@dx Personally? At least one million. At least. You need several different big cities and some medium and small towns. You could just get by. But it wouldn't be as rich. Probably only have a few dozen languages tops. So much would be lost scaling down like that. I can't even imagine.
(DIR) Post #AomruwH85FcJIUbt7w by lindawoodrow@mastodon.social
2024-12-07T01:38:02Z
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@futurebird Self sufficiency is dumb but there are huge efficiencies in closing loops - making, using, recycling as close to source as possible. If I have a worm farm, feed household scraps to it, use the worm casts to grow herbs in pots, collect rainwater to water them = dozens of tiny efficiencies - garbage bins, trucks, landfill sites, farmland, cold transport, cold storage, supermarket space, car use, water filtering, chlorine- all tiny, but same goes for so many aspects of life.
(DIR) Post #AomuI4tqNsiYc8sbvE by vlk@mastodon.social
2024-12-07T02:04:37Z
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@futurebird Somebody explained this to me once by analogy. Think of the household of Louis XIV, when thousands labored to keep a few dozen happy and well fed. Now, we can also go and feast like the Louises, at fancy restaurants, because those thousands are directing their efforts to benefit thousands. The power of a democratized network.
(DIR) Post #AomvZGdI78ufseting by apophis@brain.worm.pink
2024-12-07T02:18:27.907551Z
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@futurebird @dx trying to break this down a bit more...electricity - hydro dam, turbines (let's assume it magically appears and we don't need to get a bunch of coal to get the metal etc. to build it)concrete - gravel mine, chemical plantmetal - smelter, forge, fabricating plant(let's pretend we don't need plastic for it to count as "modern")paper - pulp millwood - carpenter shops, lumber mills, lumber yards, timber forestsgetting stuff around - trains, horseshorses - carriages, stables...i just realized i'm implicitly avoiding anything requiring an oil rig just to keep the numbers as low as possible... i really don't know how we could do anything short of our modern Giga-Mecha-Leviathan Mk. III once we've got to account for the infrastructure around extracting and processing petroleum
(DIR) Post #Aomw4MPSgZR0m5Ftuy by apophis@brain.worm.pink
2024-12-07T02:20:42.999767Z
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@futurebird @dx > trainssteam - coal, mines, :ohno: batteries - lithium, mines, :ohno: :ohno:(powering the entire track across the entire countryside seems like a big no-no)
(DIR) Post #Aomw4NFvXVOzOnnnhA by apophis@brain.worm.pink
2024-12-07T02:24:07.583815Z
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@dx @futurebird harvesting a modern wheat field would necessarily entail a shitton of peopleeither on site with scythesor out of sight doing all the stuff needed to bring in the gasoline and batteries
(DIR) Post #AomxwwkzrZPb5yv9yy by jannem@fosstodon.org
2024-12-07T02:36:34Z
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@dx @futurebird Charles Stross has written a fair bit about that on his blog over the years. For modern civilisation he puts the number in the range of a hundred million people:https://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2010/07/insufficient-data.html
(DIR) Post #Aomxwy98hIJlP9DxFg by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-12-07T02:45:38Z
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@jannem @dx Yeah. I'm thinking about the size of a university. And you can't just have ONE, you need at least three, and some colleges... and whelp that eats up a lot of people just to have the minimum to get science done and train all of the people who need that kind of education.