Post AoJMb9Z2v3H0kfU06i by Klimsu@spinster.xyz
(DIR) More posts by Klimsu@spinster.xyz
(DIR) Post #AoEVWvHW0YHF5qXbRA by Gnomeshatecheese@spinster.xyz
2024-11-20T11:47:05.557065Z
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Here's a question, and I'm genuinely curious.We continuously hear how the majority of muslims are in fact "moderate muslims", whom we shouldn't tar by associating them with islamists and jihadists. In your opinion, does this woman count as a "moderate muslim"? I'm asking because I would genuinely like to know how people interpret the phrase, because it gets thrown around a lot without definition. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yGN8SlIEZ8
(DIR) Post #AoEb4UTkfJkLaD5eKW by taylan@fedi.feministwiki.org
2024-11-20T12:47:18.525133Z
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@Gnomeshatecheese No, someone who supports Jihadists is basically by definition not a moderate Muslim. Growing up in Turkey, it was common sense to see Jihadists as being extremists and terrorists that you don't associate with.I wasn't Muslim myself anyway, and maybe there were a lot of Muslims who secretly thought otherwise, but it seemed like the societal consensus to me. Not surprising, given the power of secular and other modern values baked into modern Turkish identity. I wouldn't know how it is in other countries with a Muslim majority population.That being said, I think there's probably a lot of people who would say something like "I don't support Jihadists, but..." and then go on some mental gymnastics about how Hamas and Hesbollah are "resistance" movements instead. At which point you have to ask whether the problem is the person's morals, or their knowledge.My German gramps is very passionately pro Palestine. My mom isn't that deep into the issue but seems to trust him and agrees. We just had a little chat with her while watching this video, and apparently my mom thought that Hamas was "originally just a resistance movement that was pushed into extremism." I said I doubt it and looked up their founding principles, and sure enough, they were founded on explicitly Islamist and Jihadist principles, written down on their charter. She kept wanting to take the woman's side and was automatically skeptical towards the Jewish professor, but had to admit at the end that she's bonkers when the bit about the Hesbollah leader's quote came up. And then she ended it with "of course she's just one person and the question is whether she's representative."So, I think both among Muslims themselves, and among "pro-Palestine" westerners who aren't Muslims, there's a problem with not knowing, or refusing to acknowledge, that organisations like Hamas and Hesbollah are deeply antisemitic and have Jihadist ideals baked in. They imagine a brave resistance story, where Israel is backed by British colonialist and American imperialist forces and is therefore simply The Bad Guy, and thus the opposition must be The Good Guys.Long story short: Hanlon's Razor :blobcat-sad:
(DIR) Post #AoElZMdcrlHlmg4LGC by ninapaley@spinster.xyz
2024-11-20T14:46:47.602923Z
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@Gnomeshatecheese No. Moderate Muslims are just people of Muslim heritage going about their business, not activists. The most visible Muslims in the West are anything but moderate. Moderate people conform to their surroundings, so moderate muslims in Muslim countries, like Malaysia, mostly wear hijab. Moderate Muslims who live in the West do not wear hijab.
(DIR) Post #AoEm19eajepncclwTg by polarisera@spinster.xyz
2024-11-20T14:51:49.928764Z
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@ninapaley @Gnomeshatecheese But white liberals really want them to wear hijabs. It makes them feel all warm and fuzzy.
(DIR) Post #AoEmyUSl0kMjFIWwIy by brendamccann@spinster.xyz
2024-11-20T14:59:28.181986Z
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@polarisera @ninapaley @Gnomeshatecheese One of my mom's co-workers is a white woman who decided to "convert" to Islam, she wears a hijab on some days, she doesn't on others. It's baffling. I have no idea why any woman would want to convert in the first place but it seems to me like she wants to claim a muslim identity without actually committing.And on the other end of the spectrum you have my sister's ex's mom is a white woman convert to Islam. She did that for the sake of a man, the boy's father who is from Syria. They're divorced now but she's still way deep into that shit, moreso than his dad ever was. It breaks my heart. She is a female misogynist. I would love nothing more than to release these women from their desire for approval, from men, from people who think "marginalized" identities are cool and trendy, from anyone!
(DIR) Post #AoEo9glRiNiOXOAwT2 by djsumdog@djsumdog.com
2024-11-20T15:15:27.115289Z
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When I was in Malaysia, I saw a huge mix of hijab, full burqa and that weird metal cross veil. The woman who owned our hostel was Muslim, but she wore no head covering even though she was celebrating Ramadan. Honestly Malaysia is a weird example to pick, since it's a huge mix of East Asian Muslims, Tamili Indians. It's also influenced by the demographic immediately to the South in Singapore, which includes those two plus a lot of Mandarin Chinese and westerners.As far as the original question, I think a lot of people believe Islam grew directly out of a culture of war. In fact many Muslims today believe that, with belief in the prophet Mohamed being instrumental in the rise of the Arab caliphates that washed over Constantinople ~630 AD.Tom Holland has an amazing documentary called Islam, The Untold Story: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2JdTrZO1ToThe Tom Holland view is that many of the Arabs in the rise of the great Caliphates didn't know about or worship Mohamed; their religious beliefs varying with many different faiths, and even embracing some of the Yahweh/Judaic faiths in the region. The story of Mohamed was added later to solidify empires.In so many ways, it's very similar to Constantine and the birth of modern Christianity: faiths use to solidify a State, Kingdom or Government.The modern cultures of Islam, just like modern Christianity, would be unrecognizable to the people of those faiths centuries ago. Christianity has become much more secular, and the Sam Harris of the world (not a fan; he's a retarded fuck, but sometimes has good points) hold the conflicting beliefs that Islam is "The mother-load of bad ideas" while simultaneously believing it can be tamed and made secular (in his 2015 book Islam and the Future of Tolerance).Religions are just a coaster; embraced to grant legitimacy to states and altered throughout the centuries to fit the current moralities. All of today's faiths, if they exist 200 years from now, would be unrecognizable to us.
(DIR) Post #AoEpdGSICAA7aEsouu by Raunchel@spinster.xyz
2024-11-20T15:04:27.876391Z
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@brendamccann @polarisera @ninapaley @Gnomeshatecheese Islam is all about oppressing women, nowadays even more than other religions are. Sure there are moderates but those tend to be people you don't hear because they don't actually announce themselves as Muslims all the time. Just like moderate Christians. Those tend to be the people where you don't really notice until you really get to know them.
(DIR) Post #AoErNHZGUVyoJCeS3s by ninapaley@spinster.xyz
2024-11-20T15:51:50.619636Z
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@djsumdog @Gnomeshatecheese I picked Malaysia because I spent a lot of time there in the 1990's (my parents lived there for 3 or 4 years, teaching at a university in Petaling Jaya). Granted my experience there is decades out of date. Malaysians were pretty chill and overtly pro-America back then. I know times have changed.
(DIR) Post #AoEsXV755IBVAXuApk by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-11-20T16:04:54.628170Z
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@Gnomeshatecheese People act in the interests of their ethnic group. This means they are either extremists or pretending otherwise.
(DIR) Post #AoFJ4x1Sw70G5ptCjI by Gnomeshatecheese@spinster.xyz
2024-11-20T21:02:17.166813Z
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@taylan Good analysis.And I'm generally a big fan of Hanlon's razor myself.
(DIR) Post #AoFJNKYUBJBqI569pY by Gnomeshatecheese@spinster.xyz
2024-11-20T21:05:36.669167Z
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@ninapaley That's an interesting idea, that "moderate religionist" is defined by the social context rather than the ideas themselves. Worth thinking about.
(DIR) Post #AoJMb9Z2v3H0kfU06i by Klimsu@spinster.xyz
2024-11-22T19:38:42.554936Z
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@taylan @Gnomeshatecheese It doesn't matter much to me if there are some moderate Muslims. The numbers are still very high in favour of death for apostasy - even in a modern country like Egypt. I reckon if you can apostasize into a religion, you should be able to apostasize out. Judaism and Christianity has been squeezed through modernity. We no longer believe in "an eye for an eye." Islam does not. As you know, punishments such as amputations and death are administered today. Such literal thinking. Such cruel and unusual punishment. And the goal of global domination persists. Our God is the God. Muslims in the West and Hanlon's razor? Could be a bad idea, I worry. You might even know Muslims, who are very genial, but... who would demand your conversion if those circumstances arose (again.) What would evil or stupid matter then?(Muslim women, held back from education can't even string together an argument against this. They never learned how.)
(DIR) Post #AoJMbAiecoYMKkzBiq by Gnomeshatecheese@spinster.xyz
2024-11-22T20:00:33.008606Z
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@Klimsu @taylan I would quote Stephen Fry in his Intelligence squared debate against two representatives of the Catholic chursh, but direct that quote at the moderate muslims. "Then what are you for?" Meaning if these supposedly majority moderate muslims do nothing to oppose the islamists, then they are irrelevant. Likewise any objections they might mount about how they are the moderate majority, and how islam should be judged by them rather than the islamists, can be ignored. Hanlon's razor doesn't mean someone shouldn't be taken seriously, or their impact shouldn't be taken seriously. The way I see it, it makes it more likely, not less, that someone might support dangerous ideas.
(DIR) Post #AoJVUx8N7Y6m3A7mLY by Klimsu@spinster.xyz
2024-11-22T21:33:46.481570Z
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@Gnomeshatecheese @taylan I see that now. More not less. Impact. Thx.I guess I was letting stupid people off the hook, leaning more into moral blameworthiness or not. The wilfully blind (judge us moderates and not the extremists) and the evil = morally blameworthy!Nice argument š (and I love Fry too - he is so elegant.)
(DIR) Post #AoJVUyhrH65WvVjdIW by Gnomeshatecheese@spinster.xyz
2024-11-22T21:40:17.174921Z
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@Klimsu @taylan A lot of people make that mistake when presented with ideas like Hanlon's razor. They assume that suggesting that something is done out of ignorance rather than malice means excusing the act, when in reality it's merely a statement of causality, not a value judgement. Personally I don't find considerations of moral blameworthiness very useful. I find it much more useful to focus on effects, because that takes the morality issues off the table, and simplifies matters considerably. In personal life that means, for example, that even if someone isn't wilfully causing harm, I can still limit my interactions with that person without any combunctions. "But they don't really mean it" ceases to get in the way my decision making.
(DIR) Post #AoJWSverjlGqqbvEBM by taylan@fedi.feministwiki.org
2024-11-22T20:28:36.458839Z
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@Klimsu @Gnomeshatecheese Not just "some." There are entire nations of moderate Muslims who stick to secularism in their government and produce world-famous female scientists, artists, athletes, etc. and I think the fatalism that some people apply to Islam is kinda silly for that reason.
(DIR) Post #AoJWSwzSmfLCymZBvU by Gnomeshatecheese@spinster.xyz
2024-11-22T21:51:06.794163Z
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@taylan @Klimsu The way I see it, the religions that have been succesfully domesticated have all gone through some sort of reformation-like process, involving retranslations, reinterpretations and even rewritings of the holy texts. The problem with islam seems to me to be twofold*. A), it's comparatively new so hasn't had time to go through such a process. And b), it makes stronger claims to being the final, literal, only word of god there can be. Therefore fiddling with the koran, reinterpreting it or even revisiting its compilation is very difficult. And without at least partially reinventing the holy texts, genuine reformation is difficult. The weak point are the hadiths, the texts that are merely revered, but don't have official holy status, as they are "merely" tradition. But even they are given extra weight by the "one and only final literal word of god" status islam claims for its holy writ. In practical terms of course, the moderate muslims do exactly the same as moderate christians and jews, whether they would admit to it or not. They take the parts they like and ignore the rest, or pretend it doesn't exist. But unfortunately, if they choose to ignore the problem parts of the holy texts, they become the "what are you for" people. This is because they will be vulnerable to the islamist claims of having the true religion because they will not have any real counterarguments or countertheology, or because their wilfull blindness makes them profoundly unlikely to actually oppose islamism. *Much of this is based on what I know about other religions together with what I've read about islam, and a comparison between them.
(DIR) Post #AoJWm0iJAHwU1rdBI0 by Klimsu@spinster.xyz
2024-11-22T21:54:19.985310Z
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@taylan @Gnomeshatecheese Turkey claims to be secular, but its penal code prohibits insulting religious belief. Citizens must feel obstructed in their freedom of religion (any or none) and expression.
(DIR) Post #AoJXPagjLWnutblZWy by Gnomeshatecheese@spinster.xyz
2024-11-22T22:01:44.148004Z
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@Klimsu @taylan Finland is a de facto secular country, but has a state church, and the penal code, much to my chagrin, makes it a crime to "publicly mock god or mock or defame that which a church or a religious community considers sacred with the intent to insult". Also burning holy books is a crime.However, I am not aware of prosecutions over someone publicly mocking god, so whether it's enforced or not is another matter. Now as an aside, personally, if I had the power, that law would be torn out of the code faster than you could say "cat". But that's not the point. The point is that a country's secular or non-secular character can not unfortunately be directly derived from its legislation.
(DIR) Post #AoJYcnY6wNaAVCb1yy by Sherri_Ingrey@spinster.xyz
2024-11-22T22:09:36.429694Z
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@Gnomeshatecheese @Klimsu @taylan You are really talking about Wahhabism, not Islam per se. It originated in Saudi Arabia "Wahhabism has become known as an intolerant and aggressive form of Islam, both by Muslims and outsiders. By calling it Salafism, some Muslims say followers have appropriated and misinterpreted what they perceive to be "pure" Islam.The movement was associated with violence from the beginning: Wahhab himself was expelled from his home town for his attempts at puritanical reform and for attacking the tombs of early Muslims; jihad was declared against Muslims who refused to adopt the ways of the salaf. After Wahhab's death, his followers became more violent, murdering their way across the land and, in 1803, forcing Mecca to surrender.In 2013, Strasbourg's European Parliament declared Salafism/Wahhabism to be the main source of global terrorism, with a report linking it to the Benghazi attacks and the war in Syria among other atrocities. According to the Daily Telegraph, some 15 to 20 per cent of the $10bn set aside by Saudi Arabia to promote its favoured form of Islam may have been diverted to al-Qaeda and other violent jihadists." https://theweek.com/87832/wahhabism-what-is-it-and-why-does-it-matter
(DIR) Post #AoJYcomKN0Y4JaFtmS by Gnomeshatecheese@spinster.xyz
2024-11-22T22:15:19.172352Z
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@Sherri_Ingrey @Klimsu @taylan From what I've read about Shia islam, they're not significantly less likely to take the "final, uneditable, literal word from god to mankind" view.
(DIR) Post #AoJYqfJIMyjD0IHLHs by Klimsu@spinster.xyz
2024-11-22T22:10:28.254597Z
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@Gnomeshatecheese @taylan But what are you for if you can't say it? (There was a famous case in Turkey of a pianist who mocked some ritual or prayer.)
(DIR) Post #AoJYqgTy0mrIdgHNYm by Gnomeshatecheese@spinster.xyz
2024-11-22T22:17:49.578596Z
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@Klimsu @taylan My point was merely that the penal code itself doesn't tell you how secular a society is, specifically since a penal code is only as good or bad as its application. And there's a lot more to a society than its penal code. I used Finland as an example because it is genuinely a very secular society, yet it still bans deliberate insults to religion in its penal code.
(DIR) Post #AoJYw8r1x88o55fZR2 by Sherri_Ingrey@spinster.xyz
2024-11-22T22:17:52.868218Z
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@Gnomeshatecheese @Klimsu @taylan absolutely. But for some reason the MOST likely terrorists (Saudis) are and were friends with the USA...... hmmmmmm. Almost as though there was an agenda. Probably something something to do with profits from oil.
(DIR) Post #AoJYw9ZhH3s0JcZF3Y by Gnomeshatecheese@spinster.xyz
2024-11-22T22:18:49.205805Z
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@Sherri_Ingrey @Klimsu @taylan I'm not talking about just terrorists. I'm talking about islamism in general, including its political wing. Personally, I think the political islamism is possibly a bigger threat even.
(DIR) Post #AoJZWW6wxhkydTScoy by Sherri_Ingrey@spinster.xyz
2024-11-22T22:23:01.545427Z
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@Gnomeshatecheese @Klimsu @taylan I tried to find out if it's illegal in Canada to burn holy books, and all I got was "how to dispose properly of bibles" but there are Criminal Code (Fed) on hate crimes that don't include it, so gonna say it's not illegal here https://lop.parl.ca/sites/PublicWebsite/default/en_CA/ResearchPublications/201825E#a3
(DIR) Post #AoJZWXbTPhlbGQkW2K by Gnomeshatecheese@spinster.xyz
2024-11-22T22:25:23.538400Z
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@Sherri_Ingrey @Klimsu @taylan I'm sorry, but "how to dispose properly of bibles" š¤£ Well, it's not I who's implying they're comparable to toxic waste... š¤
(DIR) Post #AoJZXaDHCE27eCvbqS by Sherri_Ingrey@spinster.xyz
2024-11-22T22:24:48.774384Z
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@Gnomeshatecheese @Klimsu @taylan I think fundament-alists of ANY religion are a threat. They aren't radical, they are regressive, and very dangerous especially to women and children.
(DIR) Post #AoJZvGalnZ5NkBD6H2 by Gnomeshatecheese@spinster.xyz
2024-11-22T22:29:51.781726Z
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@Sherri_Ingrey @Klimsu @taylan That goes without saying.But the fact is, in the west other religions at this time have mostly been comparatively domesticated. Islam now appears comparable to for example christianity some centuries ago. Sure, there are christians and other religionists who would like to impose their own will to everyone else in society, but they have much less cultural momentum among their religion in general. At some point that'll probably change, nothing is permanent. But it doesn't change the fact that right now islamism is a more serious issue than e.g. fundamentalist christian sects.
(DIR) Post #AoJf1YQAvGWuY34XJI by Sherri_Ingrey@spinster.xyz
2024-11-22T23:03:32.216563Z
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@Gnomeshatecheese @Klimsu @taylan unless you happen to have the misfortune to be born in them.
(DIR) Post #AoJf1ZmBstjakcNdGS by Gnomeshatecheese@spinster.xyz
2024-11-22T23:27:01.025726Z
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@Sherri_Ingrey @Klimsu @taylan All cults and extremist organisations are a threat to those within them. But not all are a wider political or social threat.
(DIR) Post #AoJgWMXvDveWeKwyEy by Sherri_Ingrey@spinster.xyz
2024-11-22T23:40:43.516274Z
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@Gnomeshatecheese @Klimsu @taylan I kind of disagree, fundamenal Xtianity in the USA is a really strong political force, same with LDS. Canada is far less so, thankfully. Although I am a bit concerned with Sikhism which already brought down a plane over Scotland.....
(DIR) Post #AoJgWNVpdBZhe8yoca by Gnomeshatecheese@spinster.xyz
2024-11-22T23:43:47.685499Z
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@Sherri_Ingrey @Klimsu @taylan They have a lot of push, that's true. But they also have significant theological counterweights within christianity, and that's what I was referring to.
(DIR) Post #AoKYmHvHZjp8T8v4xE by Klimsu@spinster.xyz
2024-11-23T00:13:17.179823Z
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@Gnomeshatecheese @Sherri_Ingrey @taylan I think I finally made up my mind. The original question was what is a moderate Muslim.There are extremists.Are there people actually working on reform? I'm ignorant here. Will find out more.There are no moderates. Those that say they just want to live in peace without any challenge to Islam... are not moderates. The term has no meaning. You can't just leave alone treatment of women, the Koran and say I'm moderate.This really changes some of my thinking re Christianity. I was clinging to it but can let it go. Now.
(DIR) Post #AoKYmJ2PQj7PvXGHhY by Klimsu@spinster.xyz
2024-11-23T00:36:47.534256Z
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@Gnomeshatecheese @Sherri_Ingrey @taylan And it could be that the categories we are working with are just too crude. Moderate/Extremists.One ex-Muslim, Ayasn Hirsi Ali, divides Muslims into three major groups: Medina Muslims, Mecca Muslims, and dissidents. In order to explain her reasoning she goes into a bit of the history concerning the origins of Islam. In his younger years, while he lived in Mecca, Mohammed wrote the more peaceful verses of Qurāan. Later, after settling in Medina, Mohammed became a powerful warlord type person and the verses he wrote during this period are the more violent ones. The Medina period is where the concept of jihad originated along with the verses that dictate sharia law and harsh discipline. The majority of practicing Muslims are peaceful Mecca Muslims but most of the terrorism originates with the Medina Muslims. Long ago theologians, noticing contradictions within the Qurāan, created the doctrine of āabrogationā which says that when verses are contradictory later verses negate the earlier verses. Hirsi Aliās categories make it clear that jihadists are not simply misguided souls who have fallen under the influence of those who would āhi-jackā the āreligion of peaceā; rather they are believers who are fully supported by a long established Islamic doctrine.https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18669183-hereticClearly, there is a great deal for me to learn.
(DIR) Post #AoKYmK4DbU9z7R7FA0 by Gnomeshatecheese@spinster.xyz
2024-11-23T09:51:44.341362Z
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@Klimsu @Sherri_Ingrey @taylan I'm replying to two posts at once, because that's just easier. There are no moderates. Those that say they just want to live in peace without any challenge to Islam... are not moderates. The term has no meaning. You can't just leave alone treatment of women, the Koran and say I'm moderate.I think you're right about this. And these would be the "what are you for" people, who instead of establishing a countertheology merely brush aside and ignore the bad things. Though the passage you quoted does suggest there is a countertheology already, but from what I've seen on the ground, that countertheology has yet to fully get over the abrogation issue. Or indeed, become formally popularised the same way as reformist countertheologies were popularised among christianity. And it could be that the categories we are working with are just too crude. Moderate/Extremists. I think we could also ask in what way are these "moderate" muslims moderate. As in are they actually theologically moderate, i.e. have they effectively reformed the theology to where it isn't a reflection of the rantings of a reactionary warlord anymore? Or are they merely culturally or socially moderate, where they effectively live their lives as if they were moderate, but ignore the problem teachings and won't argue against islamism because it is, in fact, based on a " long established Islamic doctrine"? Or are they perhaps politically moderate, where they do want to live in a secular society, but feel the islamist interpretation is essentially right as the Medina doctrine is the correct one according to established theology, and are essentially trying to somehow compartmentalise and keep the two separate? Out of these three, I might argue that only the first group can be considered genuinely moderate or liberal. The other two would be such in appearances only, and would definitely fall within the "what are you for" category when it comes to political and militant islamism.
(DIR) Post #AoKZ42AYsxe8p4WoUK by Gnomeshatecheese@spinster.xyz
2024-11-23T09:54:57.724464Z
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@Klimsu @Sherri_Ingrey @taylan This really changes some of my thinking re Christianity. I was clinging to it but can let it go. Now. Oh good grief! Did I really provoke a "letting go of God" moment in someone? šOr was it just letting go of cultural christianity?
(DIR) Post #AoKZNI4pxuWNf526Km by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-11-23T09:58:26.301647Z
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@Gnomeshatecheese @taylan @Klimsu @Sherri_Ingrey The diversity comes to take over. The moderates are the apologists.
(DIR) Post #AoKapEzh7ZACA8WF6G by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-11-23T10:14:41.526262Z
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@Gnomeshatecheese @taylan @Klimsu @Sherri_Ingrey It is best to escape Abrahamic religions, but "cultural Christianity" is mostly just Western culture.
(DIR) Post #AoKbrs7ii3TM3O5jQ8 by Gnomeshatecheese@spinster.xyz
2024-11-23T10:26:22.429431Z
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@amerika @taylan @Klimsu @Sherri_Ingrey That's not the sense in which I meant it.I meant it as not believing, but still participating explicitly religious practices, or believing that such explicitly religious practices are needed. For example, in Finland celebrating christmas is no longer (or perhaps again) an explicitly religious christian practice. Going to a church service would be. Granted this was an idiosynctratic coinage, used merely because I couldn't come up with anything better. Clearly it needed to be clarified.
(DIR) Post #AoKkgOSXYjPGSCQo9Q by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-11-23T12:05:08.650268Z
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@Gnomeshatecheese @taylan @Klimsu @Sherri_Ingrey It's come up a lot in far-Right circles. Many of us talk about being "culturally Christian" to mean that we have ten commandments style morality and believe in something, but do not take the Abrahamic mythos seriously.