Post Ao5NePeAxarPF1Yrke by foone@digipres.club
(DIR) More posts by foone@digipres.club
(DIR) Post #Ao5Jsab4e5W1RJcBjE by foone@digipres.club
2024-11-16T01:23:40Z
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just watched an intro to a video game pretending to be a windows 95 pc.the creators clearly understood:1. that 90s computers often made floppy drive noises while they booted2. that windows 95 had that famous startup screen with the spinning bar at the bottombut they did not understand:3. how these two things were related to each other, in time.apparently the BIOS checks the floppy drives WHILE windows is booting!
(DIR) Post #Ao5K56j31AymYlJVtQ by foone@digipres.club
2024-11-16T01:25:59Z
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technical info:So the bios accesses the floppy drives in two ways at boot, which make different noises. 1. density check (not all bioses do this): bzzz bzzz2. boot disk check (mushy click or single click)
(DIR) Post #Ao5K7jOoCYdr5C69Tc by gatewayy@mastodon.gatewayy.net
2024-11-16T01:25:12Z
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@foone which game out of curiosity?
(DIR) Post #Ao5K7kTSClx4PtHNM8 by foone@digipres.club
2024-11-16T01:26:16Z
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@gatewayy ProgressBar95. Watching it on a stream, not playing it myself
(DIR) Post #Ao5KDpOWp71DPmsGWG by gatewayy@mastodon.gatewayy.net
2024-11-16T01:27:32Z
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@foone đź‘Ť
(DIR) Post #Ao5KJjj4oOvTZVIqMS by foone@digipres.club
2024-11-16T01:28:38Z
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The density check is to figure out if you have a double density or high density disk drive. Older BIOSes (early 90s?) seemed to do this more often, later on we just assumed HD. The distinctive buzz-buzz sound is because the controller is moving the drive head from track 0 to 79, and back again. On an HD 80-track drive, this'll work. On a DD (40-track) drive, it'll actually only go to track 39 and get stuck there. Then when it tries to go back to 0, it'll hit zero early
(DIR) Post #Ao5KODfTQlE7apktLE by foone@digipres.club
2024-11-16T01:29:01Z
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The drive has a physical "am I on track 0" sensor which triggers and makes the move-track command from the floppy controller fail.
(DIR) Post #Ao5KSX5FBZUGy4rk4u by foone@digipres.club
2024-11-16T01:29:33Z
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so that buzz-buzz happens because the BIOS is trying to determine if the drive is 80 or 40 tracks, and thus HD or DD. It needs that for Noise 2:
(DIR) Post #Ao5KWxunMvWtLJ5mTI by 00dani@elekk.xyz
2024-11-16T01:29:55Z
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@foone was the crunchy noise that you heard during the windows startup sequence coming from the hard drive instead? modern computers don't seem to do it and still have hard drives in them, so i'm not really sure lol
(DIR) Post #Ao5Kc6sLTu78a5OpRQ by OtterMatic@woof.group
2024-11-16T01:30:04Z
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@foone also the head position check. vvvvvv d d d vvvvvv d d d
(DIR) Post #Ao5KfrJfGxojTzxvEW by foone@digipres.club
2024-11-16T01:31:07Z
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Noise 2: *click* or *mushy click* is the sound of the BIOS checking a floppy drive for a disk. It'll be one of two sounds (well, three if there's a disk in there) depending on your drive model. Some of them make a very faint click, and some of them spin up motors. Cheaper ones are generally louder.
(DIR) Post #Ao5KlnpHA5lKObaMb2 by foone@digipres.club
2024-11-16T01:32:51Z
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So the click is a check for a disk: The BIOS is trying to boot off a disk if one is inserted. when this fails, it'll try booting the hard drive... and THIS is when you should see the Windows 95 logo.
(DIR) Post #Ao5Kp8fA9BfVtBRi4W by rotopenguin@mastodon.social
2024-11-16T01:33:07Z
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@foone I miss the good ol days when the drives would just beat the absolute shit out of themselves against the hard stop.
(DIR) Post #Ao5KsNOnob0qSeKyye by foone@digipres.club
2024-11-16T01:33:58Z
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The floppy noises can't happen later. They happen when the system is trying to boot from a floppy, which is a thing that has to happen /before/ windows 95 loads
(DIR) Post #Ao5KsQ9JadPGzU79km by foone@digipres.club
2024-11-16T01:34:34Z
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this is because if the system is already loading windows 95, it by definition isn't looking at floppy drives to boot from. It has already started booting, and not from a floppy drive.
(DIR) Post #Ao5KxZLOpZcKxLDoNU by gudenau@fosstodon.org
2024-11-16T01:35:34Z
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@foone These are some of the reasons I would want to actually write a BIOS that does these things. I would want it to be authentic.
(DIR) Post #Ao5L2eS1Gt52F5k2vg by foone@digipres.club
2024-11-16T01:36:44Z
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There's a large variation in the number of sounds you can get, actually. Different BIOSes and setups all change how it sounds. For example, the system I grew up with had two drives, a 3.5" and 5.25". The system had to density check both, but they had different speed motors, so they made different tones. It density checked A, then B, then tried to boot off A: This gave it a distinctive two-descending-tones-then-click boot sound.
(DIR) Post #Ao5LMzFBfn50WSR6Uy by foone@digipres.club
2024-11-16T01:40:16Z
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@Phyxis Apple II drives did the thukita-thukita: It's because they had no track-zero sensor, so they just were physically prevented from going below track 0. So they zeroed the drive at start by going down one track 35 times (on a 35-track disk drive), thus thudding the side of the drive.
(DIR) Post #Ao5LSdG0KfhI4LVhMe by foone@digipres.club
2024-11-16T01:41:27Z
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It's not directly relevant to my topic of "what do windows 95 machines sound like when booting: when do the floppy noises happen" but I have to mention the other famous "floppy noise": The Apple II.
(DIR) Post #Ao5LWtYDh78FlI3yPQ by foone@digipres.club
2024-11-16T01:42:10Z
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Apple II was common in schools for over a decade, and it had a very distinctive boot noise: thak-thak-thak-thak-thak-thak for a couple seconds.
(DIR) Post #Ao5LgPZM1Kbhff8D5c by foone@digipres.club
2024-11-16T01:43:57Z
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And this is because the Drive II doesn't have a track-zero sensor, but it still needs to know where the drive head is. So it accomplishes this by going down one track over and over. The head is physically stopped by the case of the drive from going any lower. So once it's done this it knows it has to be at track zero, because it went down more times than there can be tracks.
(DIR) Post #Ao5LluUsSWdt2WewxE by foone@digipres.club
2024-11-16T01:44:54Z
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this lowered the price of the Drive II by a bit, but it did make it much louder at startup.
(DIR) Post #Ao5Lx16EFfJkhbQUgy by foone@digipres.club
2024-11-16T01:46:56Z
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It's a very memorable sound, especially because of computer labs where people might be powering them all on around you and they're all doing this machine gun thacka-thacka- noise for a couple seconds. Here's a video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDSFdfwocYU
(DIR) Post #Ao5M5Je1BZkuXFBjii by foone@digipres.club
2024-11-16T01:48:27Z
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But that was always an Apple II thing. PCs have always (I believe? Please prove me wrong!) had a track-zero sensor, so they've never made this kind of boot noise. I have seen this Apple II noise played for a PC booting at least once.
(DIR) Post #Ao5MBqGcoAgfRyMGzA by foone@digipres.club
2024-11-16T01:49:34Z
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some older-than-would-run-windows-95 computers did click at power on (for the memory test) but that was a very different sound: either ticks or a quick buzz, made from the speaker, not from a physical mechanism's movements.
(DIR) Post #Ao5MRUEMVVEZjqlA80 by timjclevenger@infosec.exchange
2024-11-16T01:52:22Z
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@foone I love the sound of the Disk ][. The Unidisk not so much.
(DIR) Post #Ao5MUnb8xKGSfrzkbA by OtterMatic@woof.group
2024-11-16T01:53:01Z
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@foone that’s the sound I was thinking of
(DIR) Post #Ao5N5dNzt2rTiVPVCq by aatheus@batchats.net
2024-11-16T01:59:40Z
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@foone I had wondered what that buzz-buzz was for years. A double seek. That makes sense now
(DIR) Post #Ao5NbEZ3hyiI06eUvQ by yakkoj@fosstodon.org
2024-11-16T02:05:21Z
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@foone we need to go back to the 5150's Tandon drive noisesIf it was at track 0, it seeked to the middle, and then seeked back to track 0Almost as iconic of a noise as the disk][
(DIR) Post #Ao5NePeAxarPF1Yrke by foone@digipres.club
2024-11-16T02:05:53Z
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@fluffy I think it's more common on brand name computers, like packard bells and compaqs. It probably just saved them time to not have to adjust bits in the bios when putting together different models.
(DIR) Post #Ao5O6GMr3Q9sZPjv1M by ruawhitepaw@chitter.xyz
2024-11-16T02:10:55Z
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@foone I knew most of these things but it's still been delightful to read you nerding out about all the details. <3
(DIR) Post #Ao5O90gvnJEEouRLuq by kinsale42@mstdn.games
2024-11-16T02:11:27Z
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@foone YES I REMEMBER THAT (my dad's first home computer was an apple IIe, and I played Type Attack and Carmen Sandiego and Math Blaster on it)
(DIR) Post #Ao5PYvoWeRBzAyut2e by nblr@chaos.social
2024-11-16T02:27:17Z
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@foone It’s annoying that the only currently still available (produced?) usb 3,5” floppy drive does this too, despite all the developments and the commodification of (sensor) parts since then.
(DIR) Post #Ao5Pvsj4IZLgG8J7b6 by Farbs@mastodon.social
2024-11-16T02:31:32Z
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@foone Now I wanna know if anyone has simulated the audible effect of an Amiga flashing its power LED (that was inexplicably wired up to the HF audio filter) during a Guru Meditation error.
(DIR) Post #Ao5QdLE4DCs96PWuw4 by jamesh@aus.social
2024-11-16T02:39:21Z
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@foone I wonder if you would have been able to boot Windows 95 from an LS-120 floppy drive? I only ever saw one of them though, and don't remember what it sounded like.
(DIR) Post #Ao5QkM0dhJbJYjapto by qsx@chaos.social
2024-11-16T02:40:38Z
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@foone See also: OPEN 1,8,15,"N0:FLOPPY,01":CLOSE 1
(DIR) Post #Ao5SmC3vqo2xCH8dDk by Unixbigot@aus.social
2024-11-16T03:03:14Z
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@foone unless you have a boot sector virus on your hard drive that is trying to propagate (love your work and this deep dive in particular btw)
(DIR) Post #Ao5UiZqBhY1xh6733o by disappearinjon@wandering.shop
2024-11-16T01:42:18Z
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@foone the best floppy noise
(DIR) Post #Ao5bG9lhk9l2P3PXDE by crzwdjk@mastodon.social
2024-11-16T04:38:18Z
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@foone Track0 is one of the pins on the cable, presumably it's actually required for everything to work.
(DIR) Post #Ao5bqQAwDhfFiIVQe0 by dave_cochran@infosec.exchange
2024-11-16T04:44:56Z
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@foone oh that video game me all KINDS of warm fuzzies - thank you for that!
(DIR) Post #Ao5d68XXeiW5bc8Vma by wollman@mastodon.social
2024-11-16T04:58:59Z
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@foone The BIOS did that recalibrate in POST from the very beginning when the only floppy drive you could have was a double-density, 40-track Tandon TM-100-2.
(DIR) Post #Ao5fgoFwEXgJJqW7Ps by MedeaVanamonde@chaosfem.tw
2024-11-16T05:27:59Z
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@foone are you going to spin up a RACTER instance on it
(DIR) Post #Ao5g5mIGfPL6TLVpxo by foone@digipres.club
2024-11-16T05:32:33Z
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@jamesh good question! it connects as a hard drive, not a floppy drive, so maybe. I'll have to try sometime
(DIR) Post #Ao65Ort8aVgiBDxRCK by jernej__s@infosec.exchange
2024-11-16T10:16:05Z
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@foone I still remember the sound our 286 made when it was booting up. First the fans (and possibly disk drive) spinning up, followed by 8 ticks while testing 512 kB of memory, then both floppy drive checks, a beep, and hard disk heads moving around while DOS booted up.
(DIR) Post #Ao6D7uDbTFHM7Jx9UW by james_a_craig@mastodon.social
2024-11-16T11:42:42Z
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@foone on PCs, sometimes the BIOS would do 360K vs 1.2M detection by going the other direction and then counting tracks back down to zero - ie seek to track 80 and then counting tracks back down to zero; if you only get 40 then you know it’s a 360K drive.
(DIR) Post #Ao8ay13Zyfa7e7092m by vxo@digipres.club
2024-11-17T15:19:16Z
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@foone I'm pretty sure a track 0 switch was just always part of the PC floppy disk specs.I wonder if the PC world ever supported hard-sectored disks in any way. Those had a punched index mark for each sector angle. I would kinda love to know why some systems required and used this!