Post AnbGubS2VtGay7yWh6 by joe@beige.party
(DIR) More posts by joe@beige.party
(DIR) Post #AnZoxaeuvL75VPftfE by interfluidity@zirk.us
2024-10-31T20:41:36Z
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Denaturalization should simply not be a thing, for Elon or for anybody. The state get its opportunity for due diligence up front. Once a person is an American they are an American.
(DIR) Post #AnZp0GFTGXOR4Z2v32 by joe@beige.party
2024-10-31T20:42:05Z
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@interfluidity Elon lied
(DIR) Post #AnZp9IYe37TMqCK8gK by interfluidity@zirk.us
2024-10-31T20:43:44Z
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@joe Yup. There might be criminal or other penalties for lying. You can put people in jail. But you don’t strip people of their citizenship, potentially rendering them stateless, ever.
(DIR) Post #AnZpCkRynnIQDUqq0G by joe@beige.party
2024-10-31T20:44:20Z
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@interfluidity It's worth exploring if another state will take him.
(DIR) Post #AnZpJiUOUXukA5Irk8 by louis@ingenthron.social
2024-10-31T20:45:36Z
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@interfluidity Agreed. But a history of deception regarding one's immigration status should absolutely be a considered factor in holding a security clearance.
(DIR) Post #AnZpMrogGn0VxTIJw8 by interfluidity@zirk.us
2024-10-31T20:46:11Z
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@joe I’m sure other states would, if he travels with his wealth. I suspect Elon has other passports already. Elon is unlikely to be denaturalized. Assent to the practice, though, and it’ll be the most powerless of migrants suddenly stripped of their citizenship.
(DIR) Post #AnZpPdoGnosVO0QQAy by interfluidity@zirk.us
2024-10-31T20:46:42Z
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@louis Yes. Absolutely.
(DIR) Post #AnZpeFwPpNithdCiem by joe@beige.party
2024-10-31T20:49:19Z
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@interfluidity I'm not supporting mass deportations so I don't have an answer to this.
(DIR) Post #AnZqp3VYUiNSHVM0US by louis@ingenthron.social
2024-10-31T20:53:01Z
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@joe @interfluidity Except you kind of are. If you open that door, it's not going to be the rich who are pushed through it.
(DIR) Post #AnZqp46mGK9S8wljVY by joe@beige.party
2024-10-31T20:53:55Z
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@louis @interfluidity I said Elon lied to get here, OP raised a strawman I mildly agreed with
(DIR) Post #AnZqp4fWB9wNsh1Teq by joe@beige.party
2024-10-31T20:54:19Z
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@louis @interfluidity I'm confused. Don't you think we deport people today?
(DIR) Post #AnZqp55OcwdnAx88zg by louis@ingenthron.social
2024-10-31T20:55:42Z
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@joe @interfluidity Not US Citizens.
(DIR) Post #AnZqp5UZ7Mm2R0uFE0 by joe@beige.party
2024-10-31T20:56:16Z
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@louis @interfluidity Either way, your comments are still not directed at me - you're talking to OP's strawman.
(DIR) Post #AnZqp5xzLyJFuGfk5Q by louis@ingenthron.social
2024-10-31T20:57:15Z
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@joe @interfluidity "Straw man"? Okay, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. What was the point of your "Elon lied" reply if not to refute the premise of the OP?
(DIR) Post #AnZqp6RPaZqTNWREwq by interfluidity@zirk.us
2024-10-31T21:02:24Z
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@louis @joe (i was subtooting people i’d seen calling for Elon’s denaturalization. it is a thing. Stephen Miller is rally excited about ramping it up. i think it ought not be a thing, ever, for American citizens, naturalized or natural born.)
(DIR) Post #AnZqtA0WGu4Hb5nK1A by joe@beige.party
2024-10-31T21:03:13Z
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@interfluidity @louis I'm not agreeing or disagreeing - but it's common to revoke citizenship when people lie to get it, that is a thing.
(DIR) Post #AnZrAJLApBCnSydKIC by interfluidity@zirk.us
2024-10-31T21:06:20Z
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@joe @louis It is not common, at least not in the United States. It does exist. It should not. It is liable to tremendous abuse, like back in the day when you’d get sick and your insurance company would scour your application for any arguable misstatement to justify rescission and nonpayment.
(DIR) Post #AnZrGXa4nATrMyZg6y by joe@beige.party
2024-10-31T21:07:26Z
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@interfluidity @louis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denaturalization#Fraudulent_naturalization
(DIR) Post #AnbC5EyBwJMcetGcOe by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2024-10-31T23:12:02Z
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@joe @interfluidity The state of disconnection from reality already did. But taking away citizenship is not a good idea to add to the toolbox of punishment. Just that someone is vile doesn't change that it is potentially ending one's ability to live. Do it for who you hate, open up the possibility to have it done to you or your loved ones.
(DIR) Post #AnbC5G5JnIeu7Hbp8y by joe@beige.party
2024-11-01T12:32:41Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven The frequent penalty to lying to get naturalized is already denaturalization. It's a thing, no one has to invent it, it's already a recourse for the crime committed. I'm not advocating it, it is already the norm. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denaturalization#Fraudulent_naturalization
(DIR) Post #AnbC5HB1jYorVHHtgG by interfluidity@zirk.us
2024-11-01T12:35:20Z
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@joe @admitsWrongIfProven It’s not the norm. It is extraordinarily rare.
(DIR) Post #AnbC8pAFpEvBmacO1I by joe@beige.party
2024-11-01T12:36:04Z
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@interfluidity @admitsWrongIfProven neither of us have stats
(DIR) Post #AnbD4qf8PhthDzjL2e by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2024-11-01T12:37:42Z
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@joe @interfluidity Someone should be present to be held responsible for crimes against humanity... so i'd recommend keeping him. Stats nonewithstanding.
(DIR) Post #AnbD4rbGvYOy8Ivley by joe@beige.party
2024-11-01T12:38:20Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven @interfluidity what's the point of sources if people don't read them - stateless Nazis was exactly a thing.
(DIR) Post #AnbD4sN83cgOWjJzFo by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2024-11-01T12:41:23Z
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@joe @interfluidity I don't see why enforcing reasonable, humane laws should be eschued in favour of sending someone to wherever. Stating the fact that it is already done is fine, but what would be the reason to prioritize it?
(DIR) Post #AnbD4suS3jL0C4ubC4 by joe@beige.party
2024-11-01T12:43:53Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven @interfluidity The logic in this thread is laws shouldn't exist because they are a slippery slope. No one want to hold someone accountable because others might be unfairly caught up in some mysterious non-existent dragnet. The whole thread is about not holding anyone accountable in any way.
(DIR) Post #AnbD4tMSNbjtaw0xqS by interfluidity@zirk.us
2024-11-01T12:46:28Z
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@joe @admitsWrongIfProven No it is not. People can be prosecuted for perjury. The logic of this thread is that citizenship is foundational, that denaturalization is not an appropriate form of accountability, for anyone. You can put people in jail with their citizenship intact if that is what accountability demands.
(DIR) Post #AnbD8mGQi17Gk233PU by joe@beige.party
2024-11-01T12:47:15Z
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@interfluidity @admitsWrongIfProven you're saying laws that exist do not exist and that things that happened didn't happen. You argued it's rare without evidence. Let's just stop. You just want the law gone, the rest is fear mongering.
(DIR) Post #AnbEA8a5JumsCTSDOC by interfluidity@zirk.us
2024-11-01T12:58:43Z
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@joe @admitsWrongIfProven I do want the law changed so that denaturalization is not a thing! What did I say happened that did not happen? Between 2008 and 2021, there were 228 denaturalization cases. 40% of those were 2017 to 2020, due to the Trump administration. Even with that acceleration, it averages less than 18 cases a year, out of 7-ish hundred thousand naturalized in an average year. It is a very rare event. https://www.aila.org/library/featured-issue-denaturalization-efforts-by-uscis
(DIR) Post #AnbF3sXm8KR0g6xAbQ by joe@beige.party
2024-11-01T13:08:46Z
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@interfluidity @admitsWrongIfProven what's the stats for the crimes committed to earn it - that's the point. It's probably rare that people lie to get citizenship and get through, but there is an existing recourse for it and you want it gone. We will never know how often we catch the lie and actually do anything about it. If Trump or someone wants to deport citizens they'll do it. The idea that Musk could be punished for committing a crime has nothing to do with your other looming spectre.
(DIR) Post #AnbFZ8DDvbWMFaF7dA by interfluidity@zirk.us
2024-11-01T13:14:27Z
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@joe @admitsWrongIfProven I’d like to see Musk punished for a bunch of crimes. He should go to jail for flagrantly violating election and lottery laws, for example. Perjury is a crime, and we can attach as steep a penalty as we wish to perjury for the purpose if obtaining citizenship. There’s no need for denaturalization as a remedy, and its existence renders a foundational aspect of people’s lives uncertain, reversible, and privileges natural-born over naturalized citizens.
(DIR) Post #AnbFrRGfong4YxaP5M by joe@beige.party
2024-11-01T13:17:44Z
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@interfluidity @admitsWrongIfProven I fundamentally disagree that we reward perjurers with citizenship. I'm not even sure why we should bear the burden of jailing them. If life worked that way I'd lie my way into Canada tomorrow.
(DIR) Post #AnbGBegXdvsdy2KFrk by interfluidity@zirk.us
2024-11-01T13:21:24Z
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@joe @admitsWrongIfProven It’s USCIS’ job to perform due diligence, to catch material misstatements before granting citizenship. If you try to lie your way to an immigrant visa to Canada, they should check your claims and summarily reject you.In my view, once a person is a citizen of a country, that should be a rock, a foundation. Citizens can be held accountable, punished for their crimes. But a person’s citizenship is like a person’s humanity, should never be at issue.
(DIR) Post #AnbGVkhgyZ9UQQRleC by joe@beige.party
2024-11-01T13:25:01Z
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@interfluidity Canada also would revoke citizenship if they later found I lied on my application. It's their job to catch it but it's my job to not lie, they'd send me back or leave me stateless if I lie all the same. You don't just want American laws changed, you want the norms worldwide to change.
(DIR) Post #AnbGcLNzVNPhvlNJDs by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2024-11-01T13:22:27Z
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@joe @interfluidity Seems a flawed reasoning in this case. If he didn't cheat on things that he can be held responsible for i'd willingly take a us citizenship as punishment. Go get those evaded taxes!
(DIR) Post #AnbGcMdGs3ELnRX1g8 by interfluidity@zirk.us
2024-11-01T13:26:12Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven @joe For Musk, nothing really matters. He has multiple citizenships, I believe. He has infinite wealth, relative to his own living requirements. I’m not worried about any injustice to Musk. I’m worried about reinforcing an institution that a miserable political institution openly intends to accelerate and abuse, that both from a practical and philosophical perspective should not exist at all.
(DIR) Post #AnbGggzB8hzm4zqJ28 by joe@beige.party
2024-11-01T13:27:00Z
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@interfluidity @admitsWrongIfProven Well Trump is going to deport you regardless of this never-used rule. Even your stats back up this isn't abused like you claim it is.
(DIR) Post #AnbGk2EaauJmqje2IC by joe@beige.party
2024-11-01T13:26:08Z
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@interfluidity Their citizenship is at issue because they made it an issue. No one is wanting to deport Elon because he's Elon - it's because he lied, a crime. You're sidestepping culpability and that someone set out to defraud, you keep pretending it's an accident.
(DIR) Post #AnbGk3Whn2P4rD81AW by interfluidity@zirk.us
2024-11-01T13:27:37Z
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@joe I’m not pretending any misstatement is an accident. I’m saying the remedy should be punishment under the law, however severe we decide it should be, not denaturalization.
(DIR) Post #AnbGu3hnylfwJB5dY0 by interfluidity@zirk.us
2024-11-01T13:29:26Z
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@joe I do think denaturalization should generally not be a thing, and hope existing practices to the contrary would change worldwide. Yes. I’m an American, so I concern myself mostly with what my country does.
(DIR) Post #AnbGubS2VtGay7yWh6 by joe@beige.party
2024-11-01T13:29:31Z
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@interfluidity I also believe that people who cheat to get into college should be suspended for some time but get a degree in the end. They earned it by not getting caught.