Post AnRknUVfsQ4VaMRJOS by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
(DIR) More posts by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
(DIR) Post #AnPbxIjlDNbu45iAC0 by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-26T22:28:48Z
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I see some GNOME people realizing the consensus on GNOME is fairly negative, let me be clear on why that is. This doesn't apply to every dev but it's enough that it's viewed as the projects stance.GNOMECentrism: There are lots of things like xdg-decorations, Freedesktop icon themes, etc which are standards on every other desktop but because they're not adopted in GNOME they're not viewed as "real" standards. Dealing with these arguments over and over again is incredibly draining.
(DIR) Post #AnPcCTHcHrDv7ImTT6 by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-26T22:31:32Z
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It's completely ok to not want to adopt certain standards or even deviate from those standards, don't get me wrong the GNOME project can choose to do whatever they want, this by itself I sometimes even praise the project for. But pretending like these are not actually real standards when every single other desktop adopts them is the real problem and it's the same issue I take with Google and web standards.
(DIR) Post #AnPccHQ712i9qz3qqW by nicemicro@fosstodon.org
2024-10-26T22:36:10Z
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@BrodieOnLinux yeah but as long as most major distros ship Gnome by default, then if Gnome doesn't have something, it is hard to call that in "industry standard".
(DIR) Post #AnPcd7RfaUr3CsBpUe by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-26T22:36:21Z
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I know some people are not going to want to hear, some of them just want to defend there project, others are part of the problem but until this issue gets rooted out of the GNOME project do not expect the opinion on the project to actually change. Please just start to clearly communicating why certain choices are made instead of looking down on people who can see through the nonsense.
(DIR) Post #AnPcgcbQCaaohxQBJw by darth@silversword.online
2024-10-26T22:36:52Z
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@BrodieOnLinux what did Gnome (not) do this time?
(DIR) Post #AnPcinZeNiOHJYdAno by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-26T22:37:23Z
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@darth Nothing new just wanting to make this point really clear
(DIR) Post #AnPd8GSU7vsC8aQFM0 by Jessica@kitsunes.club
2024-10-26T22:40:33.184Z
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@BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social They're not "Standards" because gnome decided they're not. they're standards just not formally agreed upon standards, they're informally agreed upon.there's nothing stopping gnome from just saying they are and supporting them. really weird
(DIR) Post #AnPd8Hafuy1DeHGIl6 by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-26T22:41:56Z
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@Jessica They're "standards that are not adopted by the community but not a standards body" is probably a much cleaner way to write that.
(DIR) Post #AnPdDupHT64UmdmOTg by darth@silversword.online
2024-10-26T22:42:57Z
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@BrodieOnLinux I have had a couple of Mac and Windows friends try Linux because of me, and their perception is that GNOME is the standard Linux desktop. They know of other desktop environments, but they still see GNOME as synonymous with Linux.Could this outside perception be influencing the GNOME Foundation?
(DIR) Post #AnPec98xzIJm5o6bNA by owzim@mastodon.social
2024-10-26T22:58:33Z
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@BrodieOnLinux the comparison with Google, are my thoughts exactly for the past couple of years. Google and GNOME are both standards bullies.
(DIR) Post #AnPiQRr8zMQgTDRkA4 by lea@ordinary.cafe
2024-10-26T23:41:16Z
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@BrodieOnLinux and even worse dealing with it first hand (as someone "in the trenches")
(DIR) Post #AnPjFolbZDTCIMLnDU by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-26T23:50:34Z
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@lea I have a lot of respect for anyone that can keep there cool dealing with it
(DIR) Post #AnPjjYYEQARegsH9No by Jessica@kitsunes.club
2024-10-26T22:53:33.843Z
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@BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social It would help if there was a lot of wayland standards that weren't named "unstable-pleasedontusethis-desktopdestroyer" or some shit lmaoo
(DIR) Post #AnPjjZdaNkK23lmwMq by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-26T23:55:56Z
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@Jessica Yeah there's a lot of on going governance issues to be resolved
(DIR) Post #AnPl0QWXcSe4fh5qeO by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-27T00:10:11Z
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@nytpu If you know where I can find that please let me know
(DIR) Post #AnPsweuqy1M1mbBBVQ by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-27T01:39:09Z
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@pup There are some serious toxicity problems that the GNOME community needs to root out which have formed I believe from this desire to be as anti-toxic as possible, leading to this idea of toxic positivity
(DIR) Post #AnPurrRJB4K95HCS5A by eliteamdgamer@mastodon.social
2024-10-27T02:00:40Z
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@BrodieOnLinux I know it’s not possible but what I would actually like to see it’s factual numbers on distro usage. Because people that I speak to know about KDE and Ubuntu and they are not tech related or skilled in anyway. All I know is when they see gnome they say they will never be able to use that cause it looks so different from what they’re used to. Which I feel gnome has to understand they are not a good transition for normal ppl. Ppl just want to go now an learn later.
(DIR) Post #AnQ3RfI8cUNFSyUhRw by cooleech@mstdn.plus
2024-10-27T03:36:48Z
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@BrodieOnLinux I really hate Gnome just because one needs about 4096 extensions to make it usable DE.And yet, some things are still missing like changing .desktop icons from GUI, something that every other DE has!
(DIR) Post #AnQLHMsG2TG8cnd1n6 by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-27T06:56:37Z
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@NostalgicKitsune @TheEvilSkeleton You'd be hard pressed to find a topic that doesn't turn into a flamewar on Phoronix. I'd actually be interested to see if there is any popular topic like that
(DIR) Post #AnQLpcvuq2EGHDfwNU by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-27T07:02:45Z
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@nick I have some issues with design choices they make but I wouldn't tell anyone they shouldn't use the project they like, that's certainly not productive
(DIR) Post #AnQLwT8Jfm57uSjpZY by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-27T07:04:04Z
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@GolfNovemberUniform I'm glad you found a desktop you like, if the problems aren't important to you then more power to you.
(DIR) Post #AnQMXPycN4b0poow1g by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-27T07:10:45Z
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@eliteamdgamer Without widespread data collection any attempt at getting real distro usage is always going to be skewed by the collection method.If I run a poll I'd be surprised if there wasn't a bias towards Arch, if Nicco does one it's probably biased towards KDE users, if any linux youtuber runs a poll it's biased to hardcore Linux users, if you look at the Steam Hardware survey that's biased towards gamers, web usage numbers are skewed by fake user agent headers.
(DIR) Post #AnQNFG1miq7KijCqJc by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-27T07:18:35Z
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@ada_magicat It's a bit more complex than that with KDE, they agree the spec doesn't cover all modern use cases and realize they should ship fall back icons. However they're also involved in expanding the spec to make it more suitable for modern applications.
(DIR) Post #AnQSXxpN77cxXw8hQ8 by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-27T08:17:59Z
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@ada_magicat Never said they didn't bother, however GNOME is in the process of moving there own applications off of the spec and for the most part already have.
(DIR) Post #AnQSpoLB7oEfKrWiY4 by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-27T08:21:13Z
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@ada_magicat If you hop into any controversial Wayland protocol discussion you're going to see these issues rehashed over and over again, I am not the one bringing them up, I am discussing them being brought up by other people.Disagreement is not harassment, plus I think of my last 30 videos I've mentioned GNOME maybe twice
(DIR) Post #AnQTxVjMIg2Xt94Xdw by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-27T08:33:49Z
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@ada_magicat I think you've got my point a little bit confused, I think it's completely fine for GNOME to want to not implement any spec that they don't want to implement, I have no interest in forcing any developer to write code that they don't want to write. If the argument is it's easier to QA, awesome do that then.What I and a lot of people find problematic is the argument that if GNOME doesn't implement something then it's not a real spec when all of the other desktops do implement it.
(DIR) Post #AnQU83P5xWQVDgcarA by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-27T08:35:48Z
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@ada_magicat All I want is honest communication about why certain specs are not adopted and a healthy FOSS community where even if people disagree on what should be adopted we can all at least agree on what color the sky is
(DIR) Post #AnQUEqqz1DswK5uJH6 by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-27T08:36:57Z
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@ada_magicat Popular apps outside the DEs absolutely, the DE applications outside GNOME do still for the most part make use of the spec.
(DIR) Post #AnQUMuSTV5N7osHnUW by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-27T08:38:24Z
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@ada_magicat What Nate agreed to was the spec being a bit outdated and needing some work to make it more suitable for modern application development https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xdg/xdg-specs/-/issues/132
(DIR) Post #AnQXaTBbzehf9aYXVg by thisven@metalhead.club
2024-10-27T09:14:32Z
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@BrodieOnLinux This reminds me of the typical standards dilemma https://xkcd.com/927/
(DIR) Post #AnQXbeNrqWskAjqrFQ by thisven@metalhead.club
2024-10-27T09:14:46Z
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@BrodieOnLinux This reminds me on the typical standards dilemma https://xkcd.com/927/
(DIR) Post #AnQZ5wPTUU50iibwAK by sirobsidian@fosstodon.org
2024-10-27T09:31:26Z
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@BrodieOnLinux Definitely seems like they're going to need a stern talking to from Valve
(DIR) Post #AnQZYOgpwK6cXOIi8G by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-27T09:36:30Z
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@monster Maybe there's some miscommunication, let me know what you think I'm saying
(DIR) Post #AnQaS4AFRN9j5xbQau by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-27T09:46:34Z
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@monster Let's take it out of the context of GNOME for amount and do a thought experiment. Let's say you have 5 pieces of software and 4 of them adopt a specific way of doing things with 1 doing something different, even if that first way is not defined by some standards body for the purpose of developers interacting with this software does this operate like a standard or not?
(DIR) Post #AnQaciuqmWasNcTxrc by jase@tail-f.journalctl.uk
2024-10-27T09:46:54Z
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My son has just started to use Project Bluefin as his first Linux "daily driver", while its certainly an interesting project, it uses GNOME as its primary DE.Last night I was helping him troubleshoot his Steam (flatpak) install as it was having issues launching Forza 5, while we eventually resolved that I was reminded of an old adage from when I started using Linux 20 years ago."Friends don't let friends use GNOME"This may be because I am now a 10 year+ user of KDE (previously RatPoison and various dynamic tiling WM's) and find the user experience of GNOME painfully "meh!"He is however happy with his choice and we should all learn from our experiences and choices directly and not have our bad decisions influenced by others, even family.CC: @BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
(DIR) Post #AnQacjxMueCbbifUQa by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-27T09:48:33Z
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@jase @thisven At the end of the day I think everybody should use whatever software they're happy to use and there's no point judging people for it. That's not to say you shouldn't make jokes about it but it's all fun and games in end.
(DIR) Post #AnQbpl1QMXzOd9KtyC by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-27T10:02:03Z
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@monster This is a point I fundamentally disagree with. If all of the other parties choose to implement something this operates as a community standard, a standards body is just a formal way to define standards and only has power if developers choose to give it power.It's interesting you bring up Chromium because back in the IE6 days that's actually what happened, IE was so big the standards body didn't matter at all, they could do whatever they wanted leading to sites that only worked in IE
(DIR) Post #AnQbyP9n1fA9QJN9QO by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-27T10:03:42Z
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@monster If that 5th option is big enough it's probably a good idea to also implement a fall back for it as well, but you certainly can't force developers who agree on a standard amongst themselves to feel happy about having to cover for the odd one out
(DIR) Post #AnQcyAE6dWjx4VqAFc by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-27T10:14:48Z
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@monster Whether they should or shouldn't is a whole separate topic that gets into governance issues amongst specific projects and why certain developers feel the need to circumvent the standards body. More importantly it's what has actually happened in real projects.
(DIR) Post #AnQlpMMF3xA7g3WSG0 by lw64@chaos.social
2024-10-27T11:54:03Z
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@BrodieOnLinux @monster it's a big difference when you have extra features/protocols, and when you rely on them so much that without them your app is unusable.And the latter hasn't really been the case so far yet.App indicators for example usually are only an extra feature.So this core/minimum protocol should be a standard, the rest doesn't need to be, maybe that's what you call a "community standard".But it must remain optional.Still people complain about everything, even if the core works
(DIR) Post #AnQoqHxVCfwqBb5Ln6 by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-27T12:27:53Z
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@lw64 @monster I'm curious why you think it must remain optional, regarding app indicators it's not common but there have traditionally been some apps that behave weirdly due to the expectation of a system tray/app indicators that they'd have even just taking Windows into consideration
(DIR) Post #AnQqlCHb4wKr2jBUbQ by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-27T12:49:22Z
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@andre @monster I've looked into how W3C specs are formed but I'm not too knowledgeable about the IETF process
(DIR) Post #AnQrTb0QWJNwShK9YG by lw64@chaos.social
2024-10-27T12:57:24Z
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@BrodieOnLinux @monster because having a minimal core standard is just better for the whole ecosystem. There's not just gnome, KDE and sway, but anyone can write a Wayland compositor, and wouldn't it be bad if you first need to implement dozens of extra Wayland protocols, because all the apps pick the features they depend on and it's a huge mess and all over the place?And yes, imo it should be definitely avoided to have apps that use app indicators as the only method of user interaction
(DIR) Post #AnQsuGs1ajTnmlg4lk by eliteamdgamer@mastodon.social
2024-10-27T13:13:22Z
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@BrodieOnLinux it’s truly dark times, but I definitely understand it all. It’s just kind of sad. I mean, I agree with the people who don’t want the telemetry. But sometimes maybe once every five years it wouldn’t be a bad thing, but I feel bad actors would come in sometime down the line. Even if all it captured was your operating system and nothing else.
(DIR) Post #AnRbQzWdUqcPWx5Naa by mattiasb@mastodon.xyz
2024-10-27T21:32:18Z
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@BrodieOnLinux Saying that "the consensus on GNOME is fairly negative" reads like flame bait to me. What's up with that?
(DIR) Post #AnRfQ63I91cFIeBmRE by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-27T22:17:00Z
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@QuadRadical @marcosti_04 @TheEvilSkeleton I thought the same thing as well and then I saw my house mate playing WoW in windowed mode, very good chance he's just a weirdo but he didn't have an explanation for why he did it.
(DIR) Post #AnRfX9nUcPEKwUALce by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-27T22:18:18Z
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@mattiasb How else would you frame there's an overwhelming negative opinion about GNOME
(DIR) Post #AnRfxDoQJUAovL1uQi by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-27T22:23:00Z
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@TheEvilSkeleton Here's something we'll never come to terms with, I've never leaked a private conversation, everything I've shown has been publicly available online and if something is public you should expect that holding unpopular opinions is going to be criticized, I have never told people to go and harass someone, in fact I often explicitly say don't get involved in these discussions. However you can't post something publicly and expect not to be held accountable.@marcosti_04 @QuadRadical
(DIR) Post #AnRgDWbcCve9qNoSKO by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-27T22:25:58Z
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@TheEvilSkeleton I'm aware of the issues in my Discord and it has massively improved since I've increased the size of my moderation team. However on the GNOME side I see an incredibly toxic community that's extremely hostile to outside opinions but as it's within the terms of the CoC it's brushed under the rug as not a problem. It's certainly not everyone, I've met some wonderful people involved in the project but it's enough to turn a lot of people away@marcosti_04 @QuadRadical
(DIR) Post #AnRhGiQinkcPL5npWC by mattiasb@mastodon.xyz
2024-10-27T22:37:44Z
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@BrodieOnLinux If there *is* a negative consensus regarding GNOME then of course your phrasing is fine. The bait is of course the rather nonchalant assumption that there IS such a consensus.
(DIR) Post #AnRiDCVN8oqPPXrkBM by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-27T22:48:14Z
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@pup I know the KDE side recently updated its docs so it's entirely possible it was in an old iteration and is now going to be basically impossible to find.
(DIR) Post #AnRj7wpC732BHmCFV2 by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-27T22:58:34Z
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@TheEvilSkeleton @marcosti_04 @QuadRadical If I say something wrong then please hold me accountable, it helps me learn about what I got wrong and make sure I'm being accurate in the future.But if you can't handle the public criticism of being involved in a major desktop project, I've said this before, I don't think there's anything special about GNOME people versus KDE, COSMIC, or any other devs, everyone who exists publicly online is going to have to deal with bad people who don't listen.
(DIR) Post #AnRjpmX5jtXe6idAdU by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-27T23:06:30Z
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@mattiasb Honest question, do you not see a lot of negativity about the GNOME project from Reddit, Hackernews, Phoronix comments, etc. I'd be happy to concede the word consensus
(DIR) Post #AnRkaws77HkNmexFM8 by mattiasb@mastodon.xyz
2024-10-27T23:15:00Z
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@BrodieOnLinux I do and it can be pretty taxing. It's been very uncommon for me to hear those sentiments uttered outside enthusiast forums like the ones you mentioned though so I have reason to believe that we're talking about a loud minority.Yeah that would be good!
(DIR) Post #AnRkfEA0mOWQYuMmXo by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-27T23:15:42Z
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@fizzyizzy05 @marcosti_04 @QuadRadical @TheEvilSkeleton If I post something that is incorrect, or me misunderstanding something please let me know. I've done so plenty of times in the past (everyone makes mistakes) and I've hopefully have gone back and corrected most of those occasions. I think GNOME devs absolutely should build what they want to build, 99% of the time it's an internal change and doesn't matter, but when changes overlap with other desktop there should be some expected friction.
(DIR) Post #AnRknUVfsQ4VaMRJOS by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-27T23:17:17Z
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@fizzyizzy05 @marcosti_04 @QuadRadical @TheEvilSkeleton My goal is to keep people in the know about what's happening in the FOSS world and especially in these sometimes difficult to delve into megathreads, sometimes those topics end up being something controversial, do I have my biases, absolutely, but so do you and everyone else involved in this thread. And sometimes it's important to step back and consider how others might approach a situation.
(DIR) Post #AnRlElD1tgv7CDinbM by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-27T23:22:13Z
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@fizzyizzy05 @marcosti_04 @QuadRadical @TheEvilSkeleton Regarding the way titling and thumbnails are done I would love to make the title some super informative state of the situation but sadly this is not how modern social media operates and if you want people to actually see the videos you need to put some flair into it. I'm from a time where clickbait meant blatantly lying in a title but if that's the term you want to use I know I've already lost the battle with that word.
(DIR) Post #AnRlfui4gKlKTsBr9M by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-27T23:27:03Z
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@fizzyizzy05 @marcosti_04 @QuadRadical @TheEvilSkeleton Don't worry about it, I don't think you were being rude. Everyone here is getting a little bit heated and could do with stepping back and thinking about why the other parties have the opinions they have.
(DIR) Post #AnRqNzaQJNh2ACswsq by BrodieOnLinux@mstdn.social
2024-10-28T00:19:53Z
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@pup I do get what you're saying, design cannot be done in a vacuum otherwise you have the same problem is development in a vacuum where you end up with something that doesn't meet users needs. Sometimes those needs are outside the projects scope, sometimes they just genuinely weren't considered early on
(DIR) Post #AnW8X5gagAeWMmG8PI by sivecano@todon.eu
2024-10-30T02:02:03Z
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@BrodieOnLinux Things like these are why I've been considering #KDE (though a bit less accessible) technologically superior.